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Yo, how are thieves not crazy OP?


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#91 Nalano

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:25 AM

I don't PvP because that's where thieves live.
I don't remember the last time I saw a thief in PvE.
The only time I see a thief in WvW is when I'm running alone, which is a no-no in WvW.

These observances alone seem to pigeon-hole the thief into "niche class," above and beyond any other.

#92 jthamind

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:32 AM

i've run plenty of dungeons with thieves. i see them all the time in PvE. lol. sure, they may not be as bountiful as Guardians and Warriors, but they're there.

#93 mofogie

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:13 AM

I PvE plenty on my thief.  they put out absurd DPS, and can de-aggro easily.  I rarely get hit at all, and make the fights quicker for my team.

#94 dynia666

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:35 AM

View PostNalano, on 22 December 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

I don't PvP because that's where thieves live.

cause you are noob thiefs are easy to kill

#95 Nalano

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

View Postdynia666, on 22 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

cause you are noob thiefs are easy to kill

Doesn't matter if they're easy to kill or annoying as *roaches: WvW is about taking land, not killing noobs, and as such they're practically sidelined.

The last time I remember having to deal with a thief in PvE - and I admit it has been a while - he only confirmed my impression of rogues/assassins/various flavors of stealth-based physical melee classes when it comes to MMO dungeon runs: Their job is to die a lot and make you wish you brought a warrior.

#96 jthamind

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

i play a glass cannon thief in dungeons, and i rarely get downed while still being able to put out great damage. and i don't even consider myself that good of a thief. i've noticed that most thieves i run with tend to do a pretty good job (although my main is a support/heal elem which helps them a lot).

that guy you played with must have been awful. lol.

#97 Millimidget

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

View Postdynia666, on 22 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

here is your op thief with invis
lol what?

There's a complete disconnect from reality in this thread. The class design is fine if you remove stealth from the game.

View PostSinnacle, on 19 December 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

The counter to thieves IS AOE if you have buddies with you.
Who has zero cooldown instant cast PBAOE?

Edited by Millimidget, 22 December 2012 - 06:22 PM.


#98 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

View PostFalfyrel, on 22 December 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

First, I'll let the Guardian video drop since it's clear by now that I'm declaring him a decent player by comparing him to a decent WvWer as a baseline, and you're declaring him horrendous by the standard of a tPvPer.

Second, "Other classes have higher burst than thieves?"



Which classes? 100B Frenzy warriors? Scepter elementalists? Mesmer shatter builds? Certainly not Necromancers, Rangers, Engineers, or Guardians. Controlled scenario (and WvW) or not, none of the above classes have the ability to deal 20k damage in a split second (this person's armor wasn't exactly low, either, at 2572), apart from maybe 100B Frenzy warriors who are incredibly easy to stop dead in their tracks, since 100B is a channeled skill and thus a single interrupt can reset it on cooldown.

Easily telegraphed, controlled scenario, terrible player or not: 20k damage in a single second is not good for the flow of PvP, and Thieves remain one of the only classes who can punish others that hard for making mistakes. Which makes them infest lower-level play like locusts, and makes them weak in higher-level play since many players aren't as new to the game.

Blind demolishes any burst other than ones dependent on multi-hit channeled skills, so that's a bit of a moot point - Blind is a condition specifically designed to counter bursts. Amusingly, since so many Blind skills are targeted rather than AoE or melee (Deathly Swarm, Flashing Blade if Thief isn't in melee, Smoldering Arrow, Static Shot if Thief isn't near any other enemy, Shadow Shot on Thieves, Blinding Flash...), the Thief actually has a pretty good counter to many Blind skills while in stealth, whereas many other classes not dependent on channeled bursts (Mesmer after the blindness-nerf, some Scepter elementalist builds) have to either remove Blind or suck it up.

Buffing specific skills to give them more utility or support potential would pigeonhole Thieves into using them. Granted, yes; buffing skills does tend to promote their use. But if it helps the Thief rise to a higher level of competitive viability outside of "niche burst" and "NPC killer" then I think it's clear which is the lesser evil. And it has even less of an impact if the team support is spread around multiple weapon sets and currently-underpowered utilities. Buffing stealth to be able to contest points would be a sound idea to make thieves better at point defense, and tweaking Steal and the granted abilities a bit would also be a decent idea to buff the "team potential" that Thieves have, because it's one of their most major weaknesses. I see every reason to think that both are actually decent ideas.

The change to utilities hurt every class, not just Thieves: there's no reason to change balance philosophy simply due to a lack of ability to swap.

Guardians are one of the hardest counters to Thieves that exist at the moment (up there with Necromancers), yes: but this is also partially because Guardians are extremely good at point defense, which tPvP is based around (as Budzasty expounded upon). In a game mode like WvW, or potentially any future sPvP modes which do not feature point-capturing as the main gameplay mode, this could well change, since Thieves also excel at escaping, and the Guardian is one of the least mobile classes in the game. While Guardians have options to catch Thieves, they're pretty crummy compared to most other classes.

Given wide discontent of/from Thieves in all levels of gameplay, though, something's clearly not balanced correctly with them if they're niche at higher levels of play and godlike at lower levels. And from your comments and those of other players, it seems like a decent solution would be - again - to buff their support and control potential, while lowering their burst damage.

Warriors, Mesmers, D/D eles all do comparable, if higher burst with better defensive options. Mesmers currently burst for over 19k with their shatter/stun/immobilize combo. Warriors burst with WHIRLWIND, not 100b. It instantly hits for 12k+into rush, eviscerate or any other skill for the finish, at which point they get a traited haste which gives them a quickness stomp or quickness 100b on your downed corpse. D/D eles run a number of variations. Something like earth sig into fire 3/4/5 deals around 15k damage. Fire grab alone can crit for 9k or so. They also get INSANE followup capacity with RTL into updraft into lightning whip, which actually deals a *ton of damage for an auto. Nevermind the ability to add any of the arcane skills into any of these setups.

The best part? Their combos are actually HARDER to escape. Mesmers in a 1v1 scenario can force dodge rolls by channelling moa's cast, then escing out, into a pistol 4 sword 2, mirror image shatter everything besides distortion, blurred frenzy, etc. Warriors get their whirlwind burst off instantly if they're in melee range. Oh, its also aoe. Elementalists have multiple gap closer setups in air and fire.  

And no, blind doesn't demolish other burst classes. You need an Aoe, not single target, blind to neutralize a shatter, and thieves who spec into basi for the backstab setup cannot remove blind without removing the venom which prevents a dodgeroll on steal. A mesmer can chump shatter or just mix an auto in before they blow their combo. A warrior's burst skills are all multi-hit. Can't blind whirlwind. Can't blind 100b. Elementalists have a truckton of condi removal, traited or skilled. They can also just throw an extra dagger 1 to remove blind. Many people have moved to taking ether heal because of the rise of necros and the buff it received recently.  

When basi goes up, unless traited into an extra hit on venoms, a blind completely neuters a thief's combo. Condiremoval on a thief is generally limited to shadow step for the burst build, which is normally used to get to fights or to get up cliffs or for its stunbreaker. Using it to remove a blind  makes your burst incredibly telegraphed, which means you've got a number of options for stopping it.

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The change to utilities hurt every class, not just Thieves
Necros, warriors, guardians, engineers and rangers generally don't change very many of their utilities during a match. Thieves do. Mesmers swap null field in vs certain fights. They also used to bring their pull for keep ledges, which isn't really useful anywhere else. Elementalists had very limited swapping, but they're strong enough that their current utility bars deal with most current threats.
Thieves are actually the anti-necro right now because most necros have switched to very glassy point rapists. Thieves are tasked specifically to deal with necros in most fights, and generally peeling that thief off your necro is what you'll dedicate your ele or thief (if they don't have a necro) to doing with the current meta. Against tankier builds, thieves get demolished. Aoe blind pulses prevent sustained physical damage, their signets prevent you from out-condi damaging them and if they have enough bulk to survive your burst, they're generally going to win. Ranged damage via shortbow doesn't deal enough to chunk deathshroud either. Thankfully team fights don't allow necros to drop 50 wells at their feet and laugh at you, so you're much better off sniping in that scenario.

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Given wide discontent of/from Thieves in all levels of gameplay, though, something's clearly not balanced correctly with them if they're niche at higher levels of play and godlike at lower levels. And from your comments and those of other players, it seems like a decent solution would be - again - to buff their support and control potential, while lowering their burst damage.
That doesn't really solve any of the issues associated with the class and the main problem from my take isn't the class, its people who sit on the forums crying about it rather than learning how to deal with it. A number of the nerfs that thieves got were literally copy-pasted off forum whine posts. You'll see other types of nerfs make it to the patch notes, like the ones wrt the svanir runes which were exclusively asked for by the competitive community, and the ones asking for a change to the amount of downed state hp across the board.


I just feel like the attitude of the community is relatively poor. The fact that there hasn't been a massive outcry over the utilities nerf just shows that the majority of the comp. community is gone or scaling back their involvement with the game. Pending sponsorship deals (and I know, because I've been a part of them) in many cases have stalled, then closed. People confronted with an issue in-game should be first asking "How do I get better" and then "How can I help the game" before "How can I get the game catered to me". You've basically written up huge reams of text in the hope of changing the game to suit your needs rather than investing in your own in-game skills. Sadly, its difficult to improve without playing better people, and wvwvw actively incentivizes avoiding encounters that'll let you get better because of the downtime spent running after you die and the nature of the combat involved. After all, you're probably more useful shooting a zerg with a catapult or arrow cart, and that doesn't require any skills based progression, but the rewards for doing so are far higher than winning 3 1v1s in the jp.

#99 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 22 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

The fact that there hasn't been a massive outcry over the utilities nerf just shows that the majority of the comp. community is gone or scaling back their involvement with the game.

Is this REALLY the problem? Who actually thought that the ability to switch weapons/utilities was anything more than a bug?
Isn't the actual problem of this game that PvP is simply shit?

#100 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostProtoss, on 22 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Is this REALLY the problem? Who actually thought that the ability to switch weapons/utilities was anything more than a bug?
Isn't the actual problem of this game that PvP is simply shit?
Its a pretty huge problem. Many players specifically tailored their setups to specific fights. If you're going to go force a mesmer to portal to his home point, for instance, a thief would drop an ambush on the portal. Ambush, however, is near useless in a team fight.  If you're roaming as thief and are headed up to clocktower, you could spec-in scorpion wire and devourer venom if your guardian lets you know that theirs has blown his judge's. Would you ever wander around with scorpion wire otherwise? Its actually decently useful in certain maps for team fights, but useless in many others. Blinding powder's utility vs shadow refuge, for instance is nearly equivalent, but the slight difference between them (No heal, shorter duration, blind, no location tethering for powder vs heal, aoe blind finishers, location tether) Is so minor, yet you get drastically different effectiveness from them depending on how and when you use them. Trying to predict what situations you'll get prior to the game even starting is impossible. Shadow trap used to be a pretty decent swap-in for a roamer on kyhlo if you were against a bunker-heavy team (which means that treb uptime is at a premium). Now the skill is nearly unusable because of how team fights work.

Lets put it like this: If you're running a competitive team, your players just had 15 or so viable skill choices per match collapsed into 5 per. This makes the game more static and increases the situations in which you end up saying shit like

"Well, we didn't know he was xyz spec and we didn't bring abc utilties. gg."

Who honestly complained about being able to customize yourself mid-match outside of fights? Was that ever an issue?

The core pvp mechanics in this game are actually very VERY good. Some of the mechanics need a bit of a buff (See: Confusion) and a lot of the CC applicators need to last long enough that they're an issue. (5 seconds of weakness, which is roughly a 20% damage decrease to most high damage physical builds? Whoa. Well done. Compare that utility to what you'd get from, say, Iron Mist in GW1. If the warrior doesn't have the hex removed, he's out of the fight for 15+ seconds. If their team is running, you can use it to secure another kill. If you're combining it with skills like maelstrom, it completely shuts a caster down. Blurred vision? 10 seconds of 50% miss. Etc.

The GW2 utilities don't these strong CC effects and the ones that do are generally very short duration, are telegraphed and dodgeable and typically require specific setups to work. Combine that with the fact that you used to be able to swap in those niche pics when the conditions were right meant that players had to be mentally nimble and develop a game plan for fights as they were occuring, rather than just setting up a build and autopiloting through them.

Competitive players dont' really like sitting back and aoeing into a point for the fifteenth time per night. If you're a casual pvper, by contrast, you're not at a level where utility switching is fun or needed, so you don't see any drawback. Quite the contrary, its now easier to know what you're up against, because you've seen a player's utlities the last time you fought him. Given that, the lack of anyone talking about the change means that competitive players don't see value in talking anymore, because they think that the development team doesn't give a shit about them, or that they have no way of making their points hold more weight than a mass of retarded entitled scrubkittens. Look at my conversation in this thread regarding whether or not a demonstrably shit-tier guardian was decent or not. Anyone at any level of comp play would have laughed at the idea that he was decent, but the signal to noise ratio here is off the charts.

#101 dynia666

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

View PostNalano, on 22 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Doesn't matter if they're easy to kill or annoying as *roaches: WvW is about taking land, not killing noobs, and as such they're practically sidelined.

The last time I remember having to deal with a thief in PvE - and I admit it has been a while - he only confirmed my impression of rogues/assassins/various flavors of stealth-based physical melee classes when it comes to MMO dungeon runs: Their job is to die a lot and make you wish you brought a warrior.

Sorry what ? Who said im play wvwv ??
I play spvp mostly when I used my thief in dungeon I lived more than guardians in coe any path, my whole party ws wiped all time and I tanked alfa guy easy with unlimit dodges

and no thiefs are too weak on pvp right now there much more op classes than thief, I can say more thiefs is underpowered now

Edited by dynia666, 22 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.


#102 Maple

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

View Postinvivo, on 11 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

How can a class do 19,000 damage in a second and not be OP?
It's called 51% hp mesmer.

Or perhaps a greatsword/rifle warrior.

Problem is you were using torch. Try opening with a stun. Distortion or blink if you have to. Dodge preemptively. Once they are stunned, immobilize>daze>burst.

#103 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

Hi archer.. What weapon sets do u currently use in competitive play?

#104 Ragnadaam

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 19 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Let me show you:



Ie, the issue is that it is bullshit that you couldn't recover from a thief running full burst dropping you on a glass cannon build without you seeing it coming or putting up any defense, inferring that the lack of potential to win is what was bullshit.[/background][/size][/font][/color] Top tier player.

That's a nice leap you've made there, denying the antecendent. All I did was say that I was angry that I couldn't even react, that does not mean that I thought I needed or deserved a chance to WIN. As I've said before, when fighting other glass cannon setups, even though they can do monstrous damage, the nature of it gives you a chance to react, which does not lead to the conclusion that you will therefore win; but unlike with the Thief, it just means you do not die instantly with no recourse. Again, putting words in peoples mouths. I do not mind losing, it was the 17k damage in 2 button presses that happen almost nearly instantaneously that astonished me. As I've pointed out before, even a Shatter Mesmer, or Quickness 100b does not have that quality, and that is what irks me. Please try to address what I actually say, instead of committing logical fallacies, and making snide remarks. I don't know why you're so defensive anyhow, as for the third time now I don't even want Thieves to be nerfed, as these sorts of all or nothing glass builds are rather irrelevant in organized spvp, and are therefore fairly irrelevant balance wise. It's just obnoxious.

Edited by Ragnadaam, 23 December 2012 - 02:04 AM.


#105 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:00 AM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 22 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Given that, the lack of anyone talking about the change means that competitive players don't see value in talking anymore, because they think that the development team doesn't give a shit about them ...

As I said, from my understanding, a lot of very decent players gave up on PvP from the start because it was obvious that GW2 is basically a PvE game with PvP slapped on top of it.
To take your example, how can the fact that you basically only have 5 useful utilities not be a sign of failure IF the devs set out to massively reduce the number of skills with the sole purpose of being able to balance them better to prevent such situations?
Also: *ing thieves, mesmers and pets! What about those pieces of shit screams good PvP design?

#106 dynia666

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

View PostProtoss, on 23 December 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

As I said, from my understanding, a lot of very decent players gave up on PvP from the start because it was obvious that GW2 is basically a PvE game with PvP slapped on top of it.
To take your example, how can the fact that you basically only have 5 useful utilities not be a sign of failure IF the devs set out to massively reduce the number of skills with the sole purpose of being able to balance them better to prevent such situations?
Also: *ing thieves, mesmers and pets! What about those pieces of shit screams good PvP design?

go back to wow then, dota 2 got only 4 skills on belt and mostly 1 is pasive or even 2 of them, its pvp game dude with pve elements

#107 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

View Postdynia666, on 23 December 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

go back to wow then, dota 2 got only 4 skills on belt and mostly 1 is pasive or even 2 of them, its pvp game dude with pve elements

Well, you need an ass to spell assumption.

How is GW2 PvP not turning out to be exactly what folks said it would be 5 or 10 months ago? It's shallow as * with the classes that were pointed out to be problematic being problematic.

#108 Caffynated

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 22 December 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Warriors, Mesmers, D/D eles all do comparable, if higher burst with better defensive options. Mesmers currently burst for over 19k with their shatter/stun/immobilize combo.

Posted Image

That video shows 27k damage in ~ 1/2 second.

Fire grab alone is 3/4 second + aftercast and requires the ele to set up burning before hand or it hits for nothing. Any ele that can even do 27k damage in 3 seconds is nowhere near as survivable as the glassiest thief because of stealth.

Mesmers have to get their clones out before they can do their current burst, and the devs just said they're nerfing it because it's brokenly overpowered.

I don't play warrior, and there's not enough competent ones out there for me to judge, but I'll remain skeptical that they can pull off 27k damage in 1/2 second until you post a video of it.

Thieves on the other hand just have to get into steal range, CnMugD -> backstab for 27k in 1/2 second. That's broken.

Edited by Caffynated, 23 December 2012 - 02:33 PM.


#109 Nalano

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

View Postdynia666, on 22 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Sorry what ? Who said im play wvwv ??
I play spvp mostly when I used my thief in dungeon I lived more than guardians in coe any path, my whole party ws wiped all time and I tanked alfa guy easy with unlimit dodges

and no thiefs are too weak on pvp right now there much more op classes than thief, I can say more thiefs is underpowered now

So on one side of your mouth you're talking about how you're god's gift to gaming and on the other side you're complaining how you're underpowered.

Excuse me as I get my seven daily chuckles.

#110 Cordley

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostCaffynated, on 23 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Thieves on the other hand just have to get into steal range, CnMugD -> backstab for 27k in 1/2 second. That's broken.

That player did nothing to counter the combo. He was caught off guard and unprepared. Hence he deserved to eat every piece of that damage. A simple dodge after being affected by Blinding Powder could save his life and force that thief to run away.

View PostCaffynated, on 23 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Thieves on the other hand just have to get into steal range, CnMugD -> backstab for 27k in 1/2 second. That's broken.

Wrong, it's not just getting into steal range. The thief must have best damage food and full stack of weapon buffs on himself, as well as specific equipment with runes and sigils, traits and utilities, significantly reducing his defensive potential. The combo is hard to land, the target must be caught unprepared and standing still, because a dodge or a blind or etc will waste all this precious combo. In order to reach so high numbers, the target must have a condition before even the combo starts. Also a luck factor must be taken into consideration.

And it's not that every thief you meet in WvWvW deals that kind of a damage. Usually it's much lower and harder to land, because most people move around all the time.

Edited by Cordley, 23 December 2012 - 05:56 PM.


#111 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostCordley, on 23 December 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

That player did nothing to counter the combo. He was caught off guard and unprepared. Hence he deserved to eat every piece of that damage. A simple dodge after being affected by Blinding Powder could save his life and force that thief to run away.

"Just Diversion it!" was a dumb-ass excuse in GW1 and it's a dumb-ass excuse in GW2.

#112 Nettle

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

The problem with thieves is its super easy to faceroll bad to average players, which is why you see so many threads like this.  They are actually quite a bit more balanced at higher levels of play.  I'm not sure how you fix them for newer players without affecting their viability against good teams.

#113 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

View PostCaffynated, on 23 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Posted Image

That video shows 27k damage in ~ 1/2 second.

Fire grab alone is 3/4 second + aftercast and requires the ele to set up burning before hand or it hits for nothing. Any ele that can even do 27k damage in 3 seconds is nowhere near as survivable as the glassiest thief because of stealth.

Mesmers have to get their clones out before they can do their current burst, and the devs just said they're nerfing it because it's brokenly overpowered.

I don't play warrior, and there's not enough competent ones out there for me to judge, but I'll remain skeptical that they can pull off 27k damage in 1/2 second until you post a video of it.

Thieves on the other hand just have to get into steal range, CnMugD -> backstab for 27k in 1/2 second. That's broken.
Watch any stream in which Hman is playing for games full of warriors instagibbing people. Any high level pvp stream with a team running a burst ele will get you the other.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if something happens in a second if your combo drops both stun or blowback + immobilize. Mesmer burst is currently instant. You can dodge/mirror image to setup a full wrack. Cast time? 0.

And use tpvp numbers, not wvwvw. Thieves don't burst for 30k and 'testing' on someone with shitty gear while you're got a fully stacked sigil and some level 80 chef buff + a sharpening stone + whatever else isn't a test. Go take a thief, go into the mists and pull out 30k damage on one of the golems in half a second. I'll be waiting.

Quote

"Just Diversion it!" was a dumb-ass excuse in GW1 and it's a dumb-ass excuse in GW2.
Distortion counters burst. Every mesmer has it. Why would the existence of one of the best anti-burst mechanics in the game not be relevant?

Quote

Well, you need an ass to spell assumption.

How is GW2 PvP not turning out to be exactly what folks said it would be 5 or 10 months ago? It's shallow as * with the classes that were pointed out to be problematic being problematic.
I know half of the alpha testers who were complaining about the game just being a matter of facerolling your skills. None of them ended up being any decent when competition came out.


The game's main issues stem from the fact that all maps are conquest, and aoe faceraping points is more effective than any other comp, especially when it means you can prevent resses by bombing on downed players. There's no aoe mitigation skills in the game. No effective anti-pressure setups.

There's also nothing to play for. The pvp benefits in the game are limited to being known on stream with not even cosmetic progression being evident past the first handful of won paid matches. The 120 gems you get for winning a paid takes roughly 45 minutes of tourney time + 5 tickets + queue time(which cost 60 gems to get). If you're perfectly successful in paids, you make 60 gems per hour or so. The world's best teams, then, are making less than they would if they were running ascalon *ing catacombs.

Do you get how insane that is? There's no pvp progression. No monthly tournaments. No observer mode. No scrims, No methods of setting up a proper practice AND the rewards are *ing bullshit. You get paid tournament tokens? GREAT, I HAVE 250 ALREADY.

Edited by ArcherHenchman, 23 December 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#114 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 23 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Distortion counters burst. Every mesmer has it. Why would the existence of one of the best anti-burst mechanics in the game not be relevant?

"Just Diversion it!" was an argument used in GW1 to convey that nothing could really be broken since one can always "just Diversion it".
So, the argument that one can just dodge something, that one can block it, that one can interrupt it, that one can ... doesn't mean that the incoming shit can't be broken.



View PostArcherHenchman, on 23 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I know half of the alpha testers who were complaining about the game just being a matter of facerolling your skills. None of them ended up being any decent when competition came out.

The game's main issues stem from the fact that all maps are conquest, and aoe faceraping points is more effective than any other comp, especially when it means you can prevent resses by bombing on downed players. There's no aoe mitigation skills in the game. No effective anti-pressure setups.

There's also nothing to play for. The pvp benefits in the game are limited to being known on stream with not even cosmetic progression being evident past the first handful of won paid matches. The 120 gems you get for winning a paid takes roughly 45 minutes of tourney time + 5 tickets + queue time(which cost 60 gems to get). If you're perfectly successful in paids, you make 60 gems per hour or so. The world's best teams, then, are making less than they would if they were running ascalon *ing catacombs.

Do you get how insane that is? There's no pvp progression. No monthly tournaments. No observer mode. No scrims, No methods of setting up a proper practice AND the rewards are *ing bullshit. You get paid tournament tokens? GREAT, I HAVE 250 ALREADY.

With that in mind, as I said, do you REALLY think that the removal of the ability to switch utilities is the problem here?

#115 Bankzilla

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

People tend to forget that the thieves they're fighting are built for 1v1, the way they have structured there setup only benefits them in this situation. When they roll with a guild/ zerg they're completely useless, they don't have synergy with anyone and only rely on what they can preform. I'm a class cannon thief and rely on rolling around with the guild, I get stomped in 1v1 due to how my character is setup.

It all depends on how it's skills are setup, you either have 1v1 or a team build. Each to there own are not as good in the other category.
I run a sword/ pistol with shortbow build and the only real escape I have are that with the shortbow, which you can only use up to 3 times and it's range is pretty useless.

#116 Caffynated

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 23 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Watch any stream in which Hman is playing for games full of warriors instagibbing people. Any high level pvp stream with a team running a burst ele will get you the other.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if something happens in a second if your combo drops both stun or blowback + immobilize. Mesmer burst is currently instant. You can dodge/mirror image to setup a full wrack. Cast time? 0.

And use tpvp numbers, not wvwvw. Thieves don't burst for 30k and 'testing' on someone with shitty gear while you're got a fully stacked sigil and some level 80 chef buff + a sharpening stone + whatever else isn't a test. Go take a thief, go into the mists and pull out 30k damage on one of the golems in half a second. I'll be waiting.

The ele in the video is wearing Power/Toughness/Vitality exotics from AC. Hardly "shitty gear." Stop embarrassing yourself.

Yes, it matters if it takes more than 1/2 a second. It matters A LOT. 1/2 second instakills out of nowhere isn't enough time to do anything. My average ping to GW2 is 200-250ms (compared to 5-20ms for the CS/TF2 servers I play on), and average human reaction time for clicking their mouse when a red dot flashes on their screen is 225ms. You're talking about a margin of error of hundredths of a second to realize you're being attacked, make a decision on how you want to counter it and then physically execute your decision. That is completely absurd and anyone who defends that garbage is <meme>literally Hitler</meme>.

Compare that to an ele's updraft -> burning speed -> ring of fire -> firegrab routine which takes 2.5 - 3 seconds to pull off (and does far less damage). Yes, you're knocked down for it, but you have plenty of time to pop an invuln, block, teleport, stun, blind etc. to counter the burst.

A simple shatter combo can be done very quickly, but the very high burst you're talking about can not. It requires set up while you're standing right in front of your enemy and is only moderately difficult to dodge. Further, the extremely high burst they're doing right now is the result of a bug and the devs already stated it's going to be fixed. If mesmer is your excuse for thief damage being ok, it was pretty much just annihilated.

You have video evidence of a thief doing 27k damage in ~1/2 second sitting right in front of you. You claimed 3 classes could not only match, but exceed that burst. You clearly failed to find anything even remotely close, so you came back with your excuses about shitty gear and WvW stats. Even if we assume the thief has 114% crit damage vs maybe 54% in sPvP, that's still 27k / 2.64 * 2.04 = 20.8k damage. Still a half second kill.

"lolwatchutube" is not a legitimate argument. If you have video evidence of any other class doing that amount of damage in that amount of time, then post it.

#117 prince vingador

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

View PostCaffynated, on 23 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:



The ele in the video is wearing Power/Toughness/Vitality exotics from AC. Hardly "shitty gear." Stop embarrassing yourself.

Yes, it matters if it takes more than 1/2 a second. It matters A LOT. 1/2 second instakills out of nowhere isn't enough time to do anything. My average ping to GW2 is 200-250ms (compared to 5-20ms for the CS/TF2 servers I play on), and average human reaction time for clicking their mouse when a red dot flashes on their screen is 225ms. You're talking about a margin of error of hundredths of a second to realize you're being attacked, make a decision on how you want to counter it and then physically execute your decision. That is completely absurd and anyone who defends that garbage is <meme>literally Hitler</meme>.

Compare that to an ele's updraft -> burning speed -> ring of fire -> firegrab routine which takes 2.5 - 3 seconds to pull off (and does far less damage). Yes, you're knocked down for it, but you have plenty of time to pop an invuln, block, teleport, stun, blind etc. to counter the burst.

A simple shatter combo can be done very quickly, but the very high burst you're talking about can not. It requires set up while you're standing right in front of your enemy and is only moderately difficult to dodge. Further, the extremely high burst they're doing right now is the result of a bug and the devs already stated it's going to be fixed. If mesmer is your excuse for thief damage being ok, it was pretty much just annihilated.

You have video evidence of a thief doing 27k damage in ~1/2 second sitting right in front of you. You claimed 3 classes could not only match, but exceed that burst. You clearly failed to find anything even remotely close, so you came back with your excuses about shitty gear and WvW stats. Even if we assume the thief has 114% crit damage vs maybe 54% in sPvP, that's still 27k / 2.64 * 2.04 = 20.8k damage. Still a half second kill.

"lolwatchutube" is not a legitimate argument. If you have video evidence of any other class doing that amount of damage in that amount of time, then post it.
hi where do u check your ping? Fps we can see ingame ,but how do u see your ping?

#118 crowsnest bomber

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:39 AM

View PostCaffynated, on 23 December 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

The ele in the video is wearing Power/Toughness/Vitality exotics from AC. Hardly "shitty gear." Stop embarrassing yourself.

Yes, it matters if it takes more than 1/2 a second. It matters A LOT. 1/2 second instakills out of nowhere isn't enough time to do anything. My average ping to GW2 is 200-250ms (compared to 5-20ms for the CS/TF2 servers I play on), and average human reaction time for clicking their mouse when a red dot flashes on their screen is 225ms. You're talking about a margin of error of hundredths of a second to realize you're being attacked, make a decision on how you want to counter it and then physically execute your decision. That is completely absurd and anyone who defends that garbage is <meme>literally Hitler</meme>.

Compare that to an ele's updraft -> burning speed -> ring of fire -> firegrab routine which takes 2.5 - 3 seconds to pull off (and does far less damage). Yes, you're knocked down for it, but you have plenty of time to pop an invuln, block, teleport, stun, blind etc. to counter the burst.

A simple shatter combo can be done very quickly, but the very high burst you're talking about can not. It requires set up while you're standing right in front of your enemy and is only moderately difficult to dodge. Further, the extremely high burst they're doing right now is the result of a bug and the devs already stated it's going to be fixed. If mesmer is your excuse for thief damage being ok, it was pretty much just annihilated.

You have video evidence of a thief doing 27k damage in ~1/2 second sitting right in front of you. You claimed 3 classes could not only match, but exceed that burst. You clearly failed to find anything even remotely close, so you came back with your excuses about shitty gear and WvW stats. Even if we assume the thief has 114% crit damage vs maybe 54% in sPvP, that's still 27k / 2.64 * 2.04 = 20.8k damage. Still a half second kill.

"lolwatchutube" is not a legitimate argument. If you have video evidence of any other class doing that amount of damage in that amount of time, then post it.

why dont you play sPvP and actually find out..the posters on here defending the thief actually play countless hours of spvp/tpvp and hence have a better understanding of balance among classes

#119 Caffynated

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:54 AM

View Postprince vingador, on 23 December 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

hi where do u check your ping? Fps we can see ingame ,but how do u see your ping?

I use a ping plotting program while playing.

View Postcrowsnest bomber, on 24 December 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

why dont you play sPvP and actually find out..the posters on here defending the thief actually play countless hours of spvp/tpvp and hence have a better understanding of balance among classes

Where did I say I don't do s/tPvP? I don't have nearly as much time in structured as I do WvW, but it's at least several hundred hours, including time spent playing a thief.

#120 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostProtoss, on 23 December 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

"Just Diversion it!" was an argument used in GW1 to convey that nothing could really be broken since one can always "just Diversion it".
So, the argument that one can just dodge something, that one can block it, that one can interrupt it, that one can ... doesn't mean that the incoming shit can't be broken.





With that in mind, as I said, do you REALLY think that the removal of the ability to switch utilities is the problem here?
The switch to utilities isn't the entire problem, but its certainly another piece of evidence towards the idea that anet has no idea what they're doing with respect to pvp.

And to a certain extent, their strategy is pretty clear, they're going to add pvp content over time, then introduce real rewards in order to draw people over from the robust pve playerbase they've built. From there, they're hoping to get decent stream involvement and word of mouth which will pull back the previous drop-outs. The sad part is: Its a pretty *ing good strategy. Get raw numbers by developing pve content, then segue into esports when the development is done. The only people who get *ed over are the people who bought the game for pvp from the start.

As for the diversion argument, you might be entirely correct, but given the long cooldown of the chain, the easy method of stopping it, and its inability to drop people who aren't specced for full glass, it seems that pointing out the plentiful and easy-to-use defensive options is a valid retort. Guardian hammer 4, for instance, is incredibly powerful for decapping and capping points in guardian v point holder shitfests. You save dodges specifically for that skill because of how strong the knockback is. That said, the ability to dodge it is central to how those fights play out. Pretending that the skill should be nerfed because it attracts dodges rather than, say, the guardian's auto chain, is absurd. Same applies to this.

Quote

The ele in the video is wearing Power/Toughness/Vitality exotics from AC. Hardly "shitty gear." Stop embarrassing yourself.

Yes, it matters if it takes more than 1/2 a second. It matters A LOT. 1/2 second instakills out of nowhere isn't enough time to do anything. My average ping to GW2 is 200-250ms (compared to 5-20ms for the CS/TF2 servers I play on), and average human reaction time for clicking their mouse when a red dot flashes on their screen is 225ms. You're talking about a margin of error of hundredths of a second to realize you're being attacked, make a decision on how you want to counter it and then physically execute your decision. That is completely absurd and anyone who defends that garbage is <meme>literally Hitler</meme>.

Compare that to an ele's updraft -> burning speed -> ring of fire -> firegrab routine which takes 2.5 - 3 seconds to pull off (and does far less damage). Yes, you're knocked down for it, but you have plenty of time to pop an invuln, block, teleport, stun, blind etc. to counter the burst.

A simple shatter combo can be done very quickly, but the very high burst you're talking about can not. It requires set up while you're standing right in front of your enemy and is only moderately difficult to dodge. Further, the extremely high burst they're doing right now is the result of a bug and the devs already stated it's going to be fixed. If mesmer is your excuse for thief damage being ok, it was pretty much just annihilated.

You have video evidence of a thief doing 27k damage in ~1/2 second sitting right in front of you. You claimed 3 classes could not only match, but exceed that burst. You clearly failed to find anything even remotely close, so you came back with your excuses about shitty gear and WvW stats. Even if we assume the thief has 114% crit damage vs maybe 54% in sPvP, that's still 27k / 2.64 * 2.04 = 20.8k damage. Still a half second kill.

"lolwatchutube" is not a legitimate argument. If you have video evidence of any other class doing that amount of damage in that amount of time, then post it.


First off, the thief combo you're talking about requires the thief to be unstealthed and within 900 range of you. You can see it coming if you bother to look around. Thieves rarely hit a steal at exactly 900 range, either, because the penalty to an out of range whiff is a full cooldown.

Second, your math is wrong, demonstrably so. A big chunk of thief damage comes from their critical strikes grandmaster talent. Steal and CnD in tpvp deal around 4k each on crits. Lets be nice and pretend that steal applies rage before the mug damage calculation, which means that there's a 49% chance that both hits crit with a full crit build. If either of those miss, you're down to 2k for the hit. Now here's where stuff gets fun.

If you crit on both against a full glass individual, you've dropped them by 8k. If their total hp is under 15k, you're now dealing extra on the backstab. Great.  If they didn't both crit, no build in the game, including glassy ones, will activate the additional 20% damage. Against glass, you typically backstab for 6k. When they're under 50% hp, that goes up to mid 7k figures. Note the difference between 4k+4k+7.5k and 4k+2k+6k.

Oh, and wait, those backstabs are crits. Another 30% chance that doesn't work.
The first gibs a full glass build at 15k hp, which is where glass thieves and elementalists run. The second does 12k damage, which does not kill a single class in the game.

In tpvp, you don't have food that increases your precision and power or crit rate and crit dmg %. You also don't get the same gear options. Again, if you want to compare numbers, go beat on some golems. I'm not rolling a warrior or mesmer and leveling to 80, getting a set of full exotics, then making a youtube video for you because you're too lazy to get actual tpvp numbers to compare against. Are thieves broken in wvwvw? I don't *ing know. Nor do I really care.  All I know is that whining from that area of the game has been used to inform balance changes which have substantially *ed with tpvp, especially when wvwvw's massive blobs of bullshit make playing a thief reliant on culling errors anyways.

Still, I'm really sorry that your ping makes you rage at things that require reactions. Maybe we should balance counterstrike with 250ms in mind and make headshots not do any extra damage, because that would be unfair to the people who are forced to mash buttons and spray.

Edited by ArcherHenchman, 24 December 2012 - 05:51 PM.





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