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Can we return to the old lore?


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#1 PheBelladona

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

Can we just ignore the dragons and the fact that there are many playable races and stick to the good lore that the humans have. asuran, norn and sylvari are 1 dimensional races and we shouldnt waste story telling effort on them. the charr have been given this ridiculous coat of glossy paint "all the bad stuff was that nasty flame legion" - they are war mongering animals and why is there not more outcry that they have Stormcaller BROKEN and on display in ascalon. anet have tried to introduce species that are dull to be playable and lost all the richness that the human race had. we've now got weak storylines against dragons that are motiveless bores.

its lazy writing! and the reason its lazy is cause they are spread too thin trying to poke life into these sub par races. drop the dragons, drop the lesser races and restore our faith in some decent concepts. return the human gods and we can be done with it - DWAYNA VS GRENTH! not asura claus... ps a grentch mini pet wasnt in the first game remedy this at once.

#2 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

Oh so you don't like it means it's directly bad?

I for one find the GW2 stance on Charr much better than in GW1.
In GW1 they were just the bad guys, while in GW2 there are differences.
Charr are a society, where different people have different opinions.

What feels better?
1) A pure good/bad portrait like we had in GW1. Charr were evil that killed the good humans.

or

2) A more variable society, where some Charr are hostile to almost everything (flame legion), some only accept the peace treaty with the humans, and where some charr just live among other races.
This feels much more realistic/mature to me..

Edited by Gilles VI, 11 December 2012 - 06:33 PM.


#3 white_migraine

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Maybe you should read some of the lore. Humans took ascalon from the charr first, they're not entirely innocent there. not to mention it was all legions of charr that retook ascalon, not just the flame legion; however, that's not really on topic. the point is, it's not bad lore at all, you just don't like it which is fine

#4 Briar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

I guess you can wait for GW3...
  • The whole game will take place during the actual guild wars
  • You will be able to visit pre-searing Ascalon and Orr before it sunk.
  • Kryta will not be taken over by Ascalonians and as such will maintain their unique culture - facepaint and all
  • The whole game will be a giant WvWvW with the three factions being Ascalon, Orr and Kryta
  • Humans will be the only race allowing for in depth storytelling and a wide variety of armor skins as the devs will not have to code for other races (I mean 80% of the players rolled humans in GW2 anyway)
  • The old skill system will be used; stapled on to GW2's action combat creating a high depth combat system
  • Monks complete with protective spirit so that the combat itself stays organized and not zergy
/dream

#5 Yui San

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

View Postwhite_migraine, on 11 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Maybe you should read some of the lore. Humans took ascalon from the charr first, they're not entirely innocent there. not to mention it was all legions of charr that retook ascalon, not just the flame legion; however, that's not really on topic. the point is, it's not bad lore at all, you just don't like it which is fine

That might be true for GW2 but it was added in much later. In the original Prophecies lore it was just "bad Charr" are invading Ascalon. Maybe he wants go back to that as well. ^^

#6 Paken Kai

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

No, we cannot "just go back" because they have already written what exists and it is now part of the lore whether you, personally, like it or not.

The Norn, Sylvari, and Asura seem 1 dimensional because they don't have a complete series of games flushing out their stories like the Humans and Charr.

The Charr have only been granted the logical conclusion to Pyre and his warband's start of an uprising against the flame legion. And, therefor, have not been given a "glossy paint." Long after the rebellion, the charr and humans were at war, they have only recently formed a treaty because the dragons pose a bigger threat to either race than the other does. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that when the threat of the dragons is removed, the Charr will begin their war against the humans anew.

Edited by Paken Kai, 11 December 2012 - 06:41 PM.


#7 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

I know what you mean - the stories of the original games were really good. I was hoping they'd do more with the story... make it more personal somehow. I was kind of hoping that Tybalt would return as a zombie lieutenant or something so we'd have the hard task of killing him (and by hard, I mean heart-wrenching). The dragons are supposedly intelligent beasts that spread fear and destruction across all of Tyria (the world). Even the gods are afraid of them. Yet when we actually come face-to-face with them, they're just mindless beasts. They don't say anything particularly important - they just wait to be hammered to death.

I was kind of hoping that we would use some secret weapon to kill Zhaitan. Perhaps something buried deep within Orr. Or maybe the dragons could have interacted with the God realms somehow (i.e. take them over or destroy them, thus also destroying this whole 'the other races don't believe in the gods' nonsense). It would have been awesome to journey to the Underworld to recruit Shiro and the Lich against the dragons or something. I'm just spewing ideas, but to be honest - anything would have been better than what we had.

#8 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 11 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I know what you mean - the stories of the original games were really good. I was hoping they'd do more with the story... make it more personal somehow. I was kind of hoping that Tybalt would return as a zombie lieutenant or something so we'd have the hard task of killing him (and by hard, I mean heart-wrenching). The dragons are supposedly intelligent beasts that spread fear and destruction across all of Tyria (the world). Even the gods are afraid of them. Yet when we actually come face-to-face with them, they're just mindless beasts. They don't say anything particularly important - they just wait to be hammered to death.

I was kind of hoping that we would use some secret weapon to kill Zhaitan. Perhaps something buried deep within Orr. Or maybe the dragons could have interacted with the God realms somehow (i.e. take them over or destroy them, thus also destroying this whole 'the other races don't believe in the gods' nonsense). It would have been awesome to journey to the Underworld to recruit Shiro and the Lich against the dragons or something. I'm just spewing ideas, but to be honest - anything would have been better than what we had.

I for one hoped that orb you capture from the krait would have a bigger impact on the fight with Zhaitan.
As you said, Zhaitan (and the other dragons) are portrayed as forces of nature, but when we fight him he just sits there while we throw fireworks at his face..

#9 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:47 PM

Sorry, but I completely disagree on every point you made here.

GW1 had fantastic lore, but that lore continues in GW2 and hasn't changed a bit. Now the lore contains the demi-goddish dragons as well, however, and a deeper description of the old human gods and Orr.

The races being one dimensional isn't really regarding the lore, btw, but more the cultural applications they have. Now, I dare you to find any game, book, movie, play, w/e, with races other than humans that have more dimensions. The Elder Scrolls, the Tolkien universe, even ancient mythology, it all comes down to the traits of humanity. Elves are horribly perfect creatures in the Tolkien universe and Hobbits are all those neutral, peaceloving outsiders. Still, I find them to be greatly written races because they've been given traits of humanity that has been enhanced to the point where these traits have become their own.

Besides, what makes you think the lore in GW1 was so much deeper? The Charr were brainless beasts, the undead just originated from Orr with no real explanation, the Dwarves just had a civil war based on racism and religion, and the Centaurs were all just a bunch of tribalmen other than Ventari. Hell, even in the expansion pack leading to GW2, Eye of the North, you didn't get any real insight into the lore of the not-to-be-playable races nor the areas. Jotun were dumb giants, Moodnir were still just ridiculous tribal warriors, the Hylek were so too and so on.

The lore of the Gods was just as limited as it is now, if not more, because now we, as I mentioned above, have some deeper insight into the holy land of Orr.

Personally, I think the lore of this game is just as rich as it was in GW. However, I would agree that without the old quest system, you have to look somewhat more before you find it.

#10 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I guess you can wait for GW3...
  • Humans will be the only race allowing for in depth storytelling and a wide variety of armor skins as the devs will not have to code for other races (I mean 80% of the players rolled humans in GW2 anyway)
/dream
Did they?  You don't think all those human female ranger bots tipped the scale at all?  I see a pretty decent variety of races everywhere I go.  Some of us actually enjoy being able to play something besides a human.  :)

#11 DuskWolf

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

The charr paradigm shift was the only thing that kept me playing GW2 for a month, despite my mind going on and on about how much I was grinding and how unfun it was. There was this other part of my mind that was revelling in an honest to goodness intelligent paradigm shift. It's one of the few things I still praise about the game. Showing a once foe as being simply the 'other side' of a war, handling the perceptions in regards to that, and helping people understand how much was government war propaganda on both sides versus the actual people...

If only the writing of the rest of the game had been as good as that of the charr, if only the design of their city had lived up to the writing, I might have actually put up with GW2 for another month.

As it stands, the geth continue to be my favourite 'paradigm shift' race. A race that everyone was convinced was completely evil and couldn't be any other way just because we only ever saw one side of them. It's amusing, you still have the Bioware fans who want to run around killing the geth, and despise that we ever saw any other side of them. See, I think of the people who say things like this as being right-wing nutters, the sorts of people who have truly black & white views of the world. Like: Westerners GUD, Easterners BAD, and it's never granular enough to support the people, or to realise that Western governments have done some fairly atrocious things.

For me, as an enlightened person, seeing the other side of a conflict and understanding the perspectives involved is pretty great as far as brain food goes. See, GW2 paints the charr and humans being one as bad as the other due to bad leadership. Mad King Adelbern and his royal loyalists where unyielding psycopaths. Anyone remember how, when presented with Krytan aid in GW1, he was convinced that everything was poisoned, even the toys. I kept raising an eyebrow at him in GW1 and wondering just how much of the war was his fault, for being such a crazy old git.

Then there was the propaganda about charr eating people. Yet at one point in the Prophecies storyline you encounter a bunch of human prisoners who've been kept in a very healthy state for years. Who hadn't been sent to the arena or anything. It was always like, gasp, there were charr who were trying to protect their prisoners and didn't agree with the actions of the Flame Legion. Imagine that. And this was in Prophecies. You'd have to have been completely unobservant to miss that one, I'm sorry. That was the game hitting you over the head with the obvious hammer and telling you that there was more going on here than meets the eye.

But the sad part is is that real world attitudes creep into gamer attitudes. So if a person thinks Westerners GUD, Easterners BAD in a black & white way, then by the same merit they're likely going to think Tyrian Humans GUD, Charr BAD.

What a shame.

#12 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I for one hoped that orb you capture from the krait would have a bigger impact on the fight with Zhaitan.
As you said, Zhaitan (and the other dragons) are portrayed as forces of nature, but when we fight him he just sits there while we throw fireworks at his face..

There was an orb we captured from the Krait? I don't remember this haha. Unless it was the supposed 'power' we were meant to obtain, then everyone seemed to forget about it between level 60-75, and then it came back to people's minds again for the finale?

Anyway, I for one would like to know more about the gods next time. Perhaps Kormir visits the hero sometime in secret and starts leading them on their journey. Eventually we learn why the gods left the world (another threat other than the dragons?). Or perhaps we could be tricked by a god, or bring them back to help us fight the dragons. It just seems odd how they left when the dragons awoke without putting up much of a fight. And as they're both very powerful entities, it would be awesome to see them fight one another. I'm imagining a giant Kormir throwing a golden spear towards a giant dragon as we aid her somehow and distract the dragon minions below. Once the health of the dragon has reached a certain point, we could do the old trick of stepping inside the dragon and killing it from the inside. It just needs to be more epic and fit more with the lore, because as it stands right now, and I mean no offence to the writers when I say this, it just doesn't really work.

#13 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

Opinions vary, but the fact remains that you cannot flip a switch and go back at this point. I don't find any of the races one dimensional In fact, the 'old charr' were more one dimensional. Can't go back and many of us don't want to anyways.

#14 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 11 December 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

There was an orb we captured from the Krait? I don't remember this haha. Unless it was the supposed 'power' we were meant to obtain, then everyone seemed to forget about it between level 60-75, and then it came back to people's minds again for the finale?

Anyway, I for one would like to know more about the gods next time. Perhaps Kormir visits the hero sometime in secret and starts leading them on their journey. Eventually we learn why the gods left the world (another threat other than the dragons?). Or perhaps we could be tricked by a god, or bring them back to help us fight the dragons. It just seems odd how they left when the dragons awoke without putting up much of a fight. And as they're both very powerful entities, it would be awesome to see them fight one another. I'm imagining a giant Kormir throwing a golden spear towards a giant dragon as we aid her somehow and distract the dragon minions below. Once the health of the dragon has reached a certain point, we could do the old trick of stepping inside the dragon and killing it from the inside. It just needs to be more epic and fit more with the lore, because as it stands right now, and I mean no offence to the writers when I say this, it just doesn't really work.

It was in the Vigil story line, a orb that would defend people from getting undead. :)
Everyone sees it in the Fort Trinity personal story quest.

And how awesome it might be to "meet" the gods again, I think it's impossible because of the different races. :/

#15 DuskWolf

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

Kinda reminded of the geth in ME2 and ME3 by this though and the whole pallava surrounding that.

"No, the world is black and white. All geth are evil. There can't be a chance that some of them were brainwashed by the reapers like we organics can be indoctrinated. That's not how the geth work. Why? It isn't. Geth are machines. All machines in the Mass Effect Universe are evil. The reapers are evil, therefore the geth are evil. EDI is evil too, somehow. EDI is just waiting to stab us in the back, because machines are evil, and it's us vs. them. The geth was a ridiculous retcon because everything is black & white. Everything is us vs. them. If it isn't us vs. them then it's a retcon! Anything that isn't one dimensional is a retcon! I just want to shoot bad guys! Stop making me think!"

Ahhh limited thinkers.

#16 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 11 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Elves are horribly perfect creatures in the Tolkien universe...

Elves were not even close to perfect. They shed more of their own blood than any other race over some silly stones one of them made. They routinely slaughtered dwarves and even humans in conquest during the 1st and 2nd age. They were incredibly cruel and completely indifferent to the sufferings of men at the end of the 3rd age. They sent some small force as a show, but most were creeping out the back door on boats, hell with Middle Earth, off to paradise!!!!

Why am I being a lore monger about Tolkien on a GW2 board? I have no clue. Knee jerk reflex. Sorry...

#17 Briar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

View PostStrawberry Nubcake, on 11 December 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Did they?  You don't think all those human female ranger bots tipped the scale at all?  I see a pretty decent variety of races everywhere I go.  Some of us actually enjoy being able to play something besides a human.  :)

Okay I will admit 80% was a quite stretch and Arenanet released this chart quite a while back. It also is visual only and has no numbers. HOWEVER it shows that Edit: if you take one character of each race you will earn one extra human... lol

http://www.gamerevol...-released-15061

Edited by Briar, 11 December 2012 - 07:12 PM.


#18 Khrushchev

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:



It was in the Vigil story line, a orb that would defend people from getting undead. :)
Everyone sees it in the Fort Trinity personal story quest.

And how awesome it might be to "meet" the gods again, I think it's impossible because of the different races. :/

I don't think it's vigil specific. I'm I'm the Order and I went and stole it from the Krait, then defended it.

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:



Okay I will admit 80% was a quite stretch and Arenanet released this chart quite a while back. It also is visual only and has no numbers. HOWEVER it shows that Edit: if you take one character of each race you will earn one extra human... lol

http://www.gamerevol...-released-15061

Of course, and clearly that means we should alienate the half of the community that wants to play their cats, rats, and dandelions.

#19 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

It was in the Vigil story line, a orb that would defend people from getting undead. :)
Everyone sees it in the Fort Trinity personal story quest.

And how awesome it might be to "meet" the gods again, I think it's impossible because of the different races. :/

That's what I mean, though - we should see the gods again. The races don't necessarily have to pray to them or believe in them.
The asura could come up with some kind of explanation (for example: the human gods are nothing more than highly accelerated anomalies who posses incredible power).
The norn could just accept them as being equal with snow leopard, wolf, etc (or perhaps they see the animals as incarnations as the gods? That could be an interesting twist!).  
The sylvari might be too young to understand the gods, but could equate the pale tree with Melandru or something.
The charr could see the gods as powerful weapons the humans have access to, which then could cause a bigger gap in the human-charr relationship.

As I said, I'm just throwing ideas out there, but I personally think that they should show the gods and involve their storyline more because:
1. It's much more interesting than shooting fireworks at dragons.
2. We want explanations as to why the gods left in the first place.
3. It would just add more story content to the game and make the world seem more alive again (because with the gods gone, it just feels pretty dead).

#20 FoxBat

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 11 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

the charr have been given this ridiculous coat of glossy paint "all the bad stuff was that nasty flame legion" - they are war mongering animals and why is there not more outcry that they have Stormcaller BROKEN and on display in ascalon.

All that's left of Ascalon is the Ebonhawke. I'm not sure why Kryta would be that upset about an Ascalonian relic being destroyed and put on display. Kryta is also in no position to dictate peace terms. And there are alot of people around ebonhawke that are clearly upset with the Charr treaty, so I don't really know what you expect.

Quote

we've now got weak storylines against dragons that are motiveless bores..

This doesn't have much to do with the new races. Most of the race storylines are relatively good despite the one-dimensionality of the races themselves. The races could just as easily unite around compelling antagonists as the current zero personality foes, assuming they could also get a leader NPC that was worth a damn.

Edited by FoxBat, 11 December 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#21 Briar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

View PostKhrushchev, on 11 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

I don't think it's vigil specific. I'm I'm the Order and I went and stole it from the Krait, then defended it.



Of course, and clearly that means we should alienate the half of the community that wants to play their cats, rats, and dandelions.

But does having all of these playable races really contribute that much to the game? It creates an ambiance or play environment of a land with many races yes; one akin to many other fantasy settings. But it does not add depth... It spreads content out like butter.

Also, as I just said everyone wants to make a Tolkien universe. GW1 with many different human cultures did it right IMHO and people did not seem too upset at the lack of races back then.

#22 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:29 PM

View PostKhrushchev, on 11 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

I don't think it's vigil specific. I'm I'm the Order and I went and stole it from the Krait, then defended it.


Ah ok my bad!
Only did story once, can't be arsed to do it on my other characters..

#23 FreeBooteR

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:44 PM

No, i'm enjoying my Charr, Asura, and Norn characters, as well as my 2 Human characters. We're going to keep jumping too.

#24 Khrushchev

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

But does having all of these playable races really contribute that much to the game? It creates an ambiance or play environment of a land with many races yes; one akin to many other fantasy settings. But it does not add depth... It spreads content out like butter.

Also, as I just said everyone wants to make a Tolkien universe. GW1 with many different human cultures did it right IMHO and people did not seem too upset at the lack of races back then.

Right, but having one game introduce 4 playable races and then hoping that all new races are removed in the next game seems like one of the most selfish suggestions I've heard in the thousands of complaint threads I've read this week.

Should we remove all professions except Warrior too?
Does having all of these playable professions really contribute that much to the game? It creates an ambiance or play environment of a land with many professions yes; one akin to many other fantasy settings. But it does not add depth... It spreads content out like butter.
Clearly I would rather they flesh out warrior instead of having necros, mesmers, and engineers. </sarcasm>

#25 Feathermoore

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

I just want the bloodstones back...

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#26 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

I really don't get this... GW1 lore wasn't even just about the humans.
I can get behind the sentiment - GW1 just felt so much more epic, and I'm not a fan of dragons in gaming lore because it's the single most overdone thing and its remarkably lame. But the Asura, Norn and Charr were really well fleshed out in GW1 and the Sylvari make a lot of sense in their continuation of Ventari's ideals - a character who I really loved in GW1.

If I'm being honest I actually think that a lot of the issues with the story lines in GW2 come from Anet trying to make them branch out as much as possible and give people decisions about what their character wants to do. I don't personally have a problem with that, but when you do that you close off a lot of content and limit the story players actually receive. They could have easily let us do storyline arcs from multiple branches but with our arc being the first we complete and therefore the most prominent. I realise people will probably disagree with this because according to everyone ever linear story lines are lame, but linear story lines actually allow for the best story telling - you only have to look at GW1 to see this.

#27 Gerroh

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 11 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Can we just ignore the dragons and the fact that there are many playable races and stick to the good lore that the humans have. asuran, norn and sylvari are 1 dimensional races and we shouldnt waste story telling effort on them. the charr have been given this ridiculous coat of glossy paint "all the bad stuff was that nasty flame legion" - they are war mongering animals and why is there not more outcry that they have Stormcaller BROKEN and on display in ascalon. anet have tried to introduce species that are dull to be playable and lost all the richness that the human race had. we've now got weak storylines against dragons that are motiveless bores.

its lazy writing! and the reason its lazy is cause they are spread too thin trying to poke life into these sub par races. drop the dragons, drop the lesser races and restore our faith in some decent concepts. return the human gods and we can be done with it - DWAYNA VS GRENTH! not asura claus... ps a grentch mini pet wasnt in the first game remedy this at once.

Jivery like this is why I've come to be so strongly racist against human players.

"Richness the human race had". What richness? A kingdom is assaulted by a beastly race and so some adventurers run off to call for help but find a chain of other dilemmas all leading up to they were part of some prophecy to stop an ultimate evil.
It's about the most generic storyline that has ever existed and it was really only there to begin the GW universe. Now that Anet has begun expanding on that GW universe we have turkeys like this suggesting we scrap all of the progress and radical ideas presented. GW2 features a blurred line between good and evil and a lot of story ideas that are somewhat foreign to the genre. Yes, dragons bringing about the end of the world is pretty lame and generic, but the flavour of each race brings a new perspective as to why we would or wouldn't fight the dragons.

#28 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I guess you can wait for GW3...
  • The whole game will take place during the actual guild wars
  • You will be able to visit pre-searing Ascalon and Orr before it sunk.
  • Kryta will not be taken over by Ascalonians and as such will maintain their unique culture - facepaint and all
  • The whole game will be a giant WvWvW with the three factions being Ascalon, Orr and Kryta
  • Humans will be the only race allowing for in depth storytelling and a wide variety of armor skins as the devs will not have to code for other races (I mean 80% of the players rolled humans in GW2 anyway)
  • The old skill system will be used; stapled on to GW2's action combat creating a high depth combat system
  • Monks complete with protective spirit so that the combat itself stays organized and not zergy
/dream


Hey, I'd play that game.... gladly.

#29 Eon Lilu

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

I miss the dwarves.

Eye of the North and Nightfall were my favourite one's.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 11 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.


#30 PheBelladona

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

the "richness of the human race" was much clearer in the first game, you maybe missed it. there were 3 kingdoms of tyria, their gods walked the land, ascalon fell to the charr and had political infighting within the royal house - making deals with kryta who they previously fought. the other 2 kingdoms went to incredible lengths to push back the animals involving a cataclysmic release of magic, the other being controlled by an unseen magical race with cultists and blood sacrifices. the gods themselves opened portals for us to travel the mists to fight in the HoH and aid them in the wars within their own realms. the number of factions and manipulations going on in the human society were awesome. and thats just prophecies

if you think gw2 has even a sniff of that former glory you werent there or possibly didnt read anything.




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