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Can we return to the old lore?


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#31 Tregarde

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 11 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

asuran, norn and sylvari are 1 dimensional races and we shouldnt waste story telling effort on them...

Really?

Well, I could point out numerous cases that show there's a lot more depth to the races than you give them credit for. But it's pretty clear you've already made up your mind. Maybe someone else will feel up to the task.

#32 Briar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostKhrushchev, on 11 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Right, but having one game introduce 4 playable races and then hoping that all new races are removed in the next game seems like one of the most selfish suggestions I've heard in the thousands of complaint threads I've read this week.

Should we remove all professions except Warrior too?
Does having all of these playable professions really contribute that much to the game? It creates an ambiance or play environment of a land with many professions yes; one akin to many other fantasy settings. But it does not add depth... It spreads content out like butter.
Clearly I would rather they flesh out warrior instead of having necros, mesmers, and engineers. </sarcasm>

I do not expect Arenanet to remove the races for a squeal I know it would upset people just like you. However the one race idea is not insane... If you want to play your Skin for a Stereotype™ go for it. However i firmly believe that the game would be better if the developers did not forcibly confine themselves into boxes. AKA we could have humans with asura or charr personality. Now that will be forever taboo and destroy the dev storytelling toolbox while also giving them 5x more work as they have to re-skin everything GG

#33 Kymeric

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

With the Sylvari, I expected silly nature faeries, but after playing them was pleasantly surprised by Arthurian and Sidhe Court strains in their culture.  That courtly style may seem a bit naive to our contemporary, cynical worldview, but it's hardly shallow.  Hundreds of years staying power in the Arthurian mythology argues otherwise.

I really couldn't stand the Norn at first.  Thought they seemed like a cartoon version of jock culture.  Lots of bragging about prowess and drinking to excess.  After getting a Norn a ways into the story, however, I found that some of that ridiculousness tapers off.  It's still there for occasional comedy, but the main Norn characters don't feel like the caricatures you find when you first encounter the race.

I've had the least exposure to the Charr.  The chest-thumping, drill sergeant caricature made me wary of them as well.  But then there's Tybalt.  What a great character.  Just recently, I spent a little time running around Ascalon, and encountered Charr who were more mellow, determined soldiers rather than growly chest-thumpers.

Gotta say, I feel some of the in-game characters I've run across are more three-dimensional than those in the two novels, which was a surpise.  This definitely isn't award winning fiction here, but it's not all two dimensional, let alone one.

#34 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 11 December 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

the "richness of the human race" was much clearer in the first game, you maybe missed it. there were 3 kingdoms of tyria, their gods walked the land, ascalon fell to the charr and had political infighting within the royal house - making deals with kryta who they previously fought. the other 2 kingdoms went to incredible lengths to push back the animals involving a cataclysmic release of magic, the other being controlled by an unseen magical race with cultists and blood sacrifices. the gods themselves opened portals for us to travel the mists to fight in the HoH and aid them in the wars within their own realms. the number of factions and manipulations going on in the human society were awesome. and thats just prophecies

if you think gw2 has even a sniff of that former glory you werent there or possibly didnt read anything.

In Prophecies humans were the only protagonist, that's why they feel so unique.
While in GW2 we have a much bigger world, much more realistic, that's probably what you don't like.

#35 DuskWolf

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

View PostGerroh, on 11 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Jivery like this is why I've come to be so strongly racist against human players.
Eh. Don't do that. That just makes you like them. It's almost ArenaNet's fault for being so good with the convincing propaganda in GW1 that just buys into the right-wing mentality that feeds and empowers people like that. If you're racist in real life, it's not that hard to take up fictional racism as if it were a real thing.

There are plenty of games which do justice to both the human race and non-human races alike. Mass Effect is a brilliant example of this. Mostly thanks to writers with actual talent like Patrick Weekes.

It's a game, they're stories. And people like the OP are ridiculous for wanting one-dimensional, black & white, us vs. them diatribes which have less depth and meaning than even the worst of modern fairy tales.

Edited by DuskWolf, 11 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#36 Asudementio

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

View PostPheBelladona, on 11 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Can we just ignore the dragons and the fact that there are many playable races and stick to the good lore that the humans have. asuran, norn and sylvari are 1 dimensional races and we shouldnt waste story telling effort on them. the charr have been given this ridiculous coat of glossy paint "all the bad stuff was that nasty flame legion" - they are war mongering animals and why is there not more outcry that they have Stormcaller BROKEN and on display in ascalon. anet have tried to introduce species that are dull to be playable and lost all the richness that the human race had. we've now got weak storylines against dragons that are motiveless bores.

its lazy writing! and the reason its lazy is cause they are spread too thin trying to poke life into these sub par races. drop the dragons, drop the lesser races and restore our faith in some decent concepts. return the human gods and we can be done with it - DWAYNA VS GRENTH! not asura claus... ps a grentch mini pet wasnt in the first game remedy this at once.

It's okay. I would be aggravated too if i had to deal with the Salad people taking over Tyria- luckily i am of the salad people.

Instead of returning to the old lore Anet should keep crafting a new distinct story that deals with the principle worry introduced at the end of GW1 - aka the Elder Dragons.

#37 Gerroh

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Eh. Don't do that. That just makes you like them. It's almost ArenaNet's fault for being so good with the convincing propaganda in GW1 that just buys into the right-wing mentality that feeds and empowers people like that. If you're racist in real life, it's not that hard to take up fictional racism as if it were a real thing.

There are plenty of games which do justice to both the human race and non-human races alike. Mass Effect is a brilliant example of this. Mostly thanks to writers with actual talent like Patrick Weekes.

It's a game, they're stories. And people like the OP are ridiculous for wanting one-dimensional, black & white, us vs. them diatribes which have less depth and meaning than even the worst of modern fairy tales.

I'm not racist irl, and it doesn't carry over to other games.
It's just, in my experience with GW2(And I had no issues with humans before the game was released), I noticed human players will stand on top of me while I'm downed and not res, or they'll hit a target that isn't important to the objective of an event, or they'll talk about how they did everything right and everyone else is an idiot. There was even a human necromancer who did absolutely no conditions whatsoever and tried to tell me I'm the idiot for expecting otherwise.

I feel my racism is well-justified.


(Edit: There are exceptions, of course, not all humans are like this. Just the vast majority.)

Edited by Gerroh, 11 December 2012 - 10:41 PM.


#38 Kymeric

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

There's also something to be said for depth getting easier as the game is developed.

I've seen plenty of television shows where the characters were cardboard cutouts until halfway through the first season.  Over time, there's enough story developed that complexity gets easier and easier to layer in.

That's, I expect, why I had the experience of reacting to superficial races in early levels, only to find more subtlety in them later.  You can establish your characters quickly with types, then give them situations to contradict their type later.

#39 draxynnic

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

View PostPaken Kai, on 11 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

There is no doubt in anybody's mind that when the threat of the dragons is removed, the Charr will begin their war against the humans anew.
Actually, I think there is reasonable doubt. It may be a line that Smodur is holding back from quenching to appease the hardliners, but given how generous he's being with the truce terms when they could just have been "okay, we'll just hold off on fighting one another until the common enemy is defeated", I think he is aiming for a longer-term peace and possibly alliance.

Keep in mind that the charr political climate, especially with regards to foreign policy, is very different to what it was in GW1. GW1 charr had an uneasy sometimes-friends-sometimes-enemies relationship with the norn and pretty much viewed anyone else as enemies or potential slaves. GW2 charr have developed a history of friendship with the norn, business relationships with the asura, and while still militaristic generally aren't the omnicidal warmongers we saw in GW1. Practically speaking, there's not much to be gained by continuing to bang heads against the literal stone wall of Ebonhawke, and ceding territory that was never going to be safe for the charr while the war continued is a small price to pay for ending that war.

Additionally, having a common enemy, and especially fighting side by side against a common enemy, is a strong uniting factor. Like Logan swearing not to fight charr at the end of EoD, resuming hostilities will probably be a much harder sell when a significant number of charr have had experience fighting alongside humans - even those that aren't part of an order will likely have the opportunity to do so through combined efforts in Blazeridge or the Fields of Ruin, the Pact presence in Fireheart Rise, or the likely campaign against Kralkatorrik.

Regarding the breaking of Stormcaller... I'd personally regard that as an unwise move if it was done by the three playable legions, given how useful it would be against the Flame Legion. As a result, I suspect it was the Flame Legion that instigated that before the rebellion occurred.

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

I for one hoped that orb you capture from the krait would have a bigger impact on the fight with Zhaitan.
As you said, Zhaitan (and the other dragons) are portrayed as forces of nature, but when we fight him he just sits there while we throw fireworks at his face..
The orb was actually very important - it meant that the Pact had one area in the vicinity of Orr where Zhaitan couldn't just raise undead from anyone who fell. While we don't see it, I suspect the Pact made sure whenever possible to bring the bodies of the dead back to Fort Trinity so they could be safe from corruption.

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

It was in the Vigil story line, a orb that would defend people from getting undead. :)
Everyone sees it in the Fort Trinity personal story quest.
It's unrelated to the Vigil - whether you get that or not is determined by what you tell the Pale Tree is your greatest fear. Surprisingly enough, whatever you say is your greatest fear is what ends up happening!

View PostGerroh, on 11 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

I'm not racist irl, and it doesn't carry over to other games.
It's just, in my experience with GW2(And I had no issues with humans before the game was released), I noticed human players will stand on top of me while I'm downed and not res, or they'll hit a target that isn't important to the objective of an event, or they'll talk about how they did everything right and everyone else is an idiot. There was even a human necromancer who did absolutely no conditions whatsoever and tried to tell me I'm the idiot for expecting otherwise.
I could say the same thing about warriors, guardians, and other 'easy to play' professions (and I say this as someone who mains a guardian and a mesmer). The more popular options have a tendency to have the highest quotient of selfish players.

It's one reason why I'm generally much happier to see an engineer or even an elementalist (despite how poorly elementalists perform when soloing) than a warrior or guardian. Engineer and elementalist players, at least in the more difficult areas, tend to show a proficiency and perserverence that more than makes up for any shortfalls their profession might have, while the heavy professions seem much more likely to play poorly and/or abandon other players. From my experience, in fact, the effect of profession is stronger than the effect of race.
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#40 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:44 PM

I do like the races, but I think there could be a bit more variety. I mean, there are norn who worship the animals, and then there are sons of svanir. But what about a norn who doesn't worship the animals or the dragon or anything for that matter? What if he wants to discover more about the human gods, or believes in technology more than anything? Or maybe a norn wants to visit Rata Sum to become a scientist. I just find it hard to believe that every member of the same race believes in exactly the same thing, and the only other alternative for their race is the enemy NPC.
Asura are the same, as they have the Inquest (I think that's right... could be wrong) always fighting against them. Maybe one asura wants to go out fighting the bad guys in a giant hunting party? All of the races have this good or bad version of themselves, but they never mix with one another's culture which is odd considering there are charr living amongst asura and sylvari amongst humans, etc.
Obviously they mixed it up a little bit with the orders (so an asura working for the vigil would like a sword more than science or magic). However, that's only their role being mixed. I'd like to see their actual culture mixed together so you could have an asura who believes in the six gods, etc. Maybe he or she even has a mad plan to become a god for all of the humans. Damn, now I want that story in Guild Wars 2 :P

#41 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostRobsy128, on 11 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

That's what I mean, though - we should see the gods again. The races don't necessarily have to pray to them or believe in them.

Well we actually do see that in some way. You can meet a reaper of Grenth in the Cathedral of Silence personal story step. It's not the gods themselves, but it proofs they are still around and not happy with the dragon's corruption.

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The asura could come up with some kind of explanation (for example: the human gods are nothing more than highly accelerated anomalies who posses incredible power).
The norn could just accept them as being equal with snow leopard, wolf, etc (or perhaps they see the animals as incarnations as the gods? That could be an interesting twist!).  
The sylvari might be too young to understand the gods, but could equate the pale tree with Melandru or something.
The charr could see the gods as powerful weapons the humans have access to, which then could cause a bigger gap in the human-charr relationship.

Everything you described is already in the game. For the asura the gods are important parts of the eternal alchemie (this believe was also shown in GW1). The norn don't pray to their animal spirits but honor them, and they do honor the human gods as "spirits of action". (Balthazar for example is simply "War"). Sylvari have never seen them, so they don't know if they exist, but the reaper of Grenth is a good hint, so they may acknowledge them sooner or later. Lastly the charr hate them, as they brought victory to the humans, but they still acknowledge their power. They'd generally would try to kill them, but they are also very opportunistic, they wouldn't above using their power to defeat a bigger thread like the dragons.

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As I said, I'm just throwing ideas out there, but I personally think that they should show the gods and involve their storyline more because:
1. It's much more interesting than shooting fireworks at dragons.
2. We want explanations as to why the gods left in the first place.
3. It would just add more story content to the game and make the world seem more alive again (because with the gods gone, it just feels pretty dead).

While I agree the ending was a little... anticlimactic to say the least, was Prophecies really better? Atleast in my opinion it wasn't. We spent the whole time fighting the Mursaat yet that Lich out of nowhere (yeah I know he appears before but never in front of the player, except in this paper-thin disgise) just steals our well-deserved kill and introduces a new threat in the very last minute.
Besides, if you wonder why the gods are gone, you can come up with theories. I always liked that about GW (and the Elder Scrolls series as another example). So much is left open, not to much though, so it doesn't become annoying. But you never get the full story told, you have to search for clues and make up theories. Sometimes they are utterly wrong, other times they turn out to be right, when new contents lifts the veil.

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I do like the races, but I think there could be a bit more variety. I mean, there are norn who worship the animals, and then there are sons of svanir. But what about a norn who doesn't worship the animals or the dragon or anything for that matter? What if he wants to discover more about the human gods, or believes in technology more than anything? Or maybe a norn wants to visit Rata Sum to become a scientist. I just find it hard to believe that every member of the same race believes in exactly the same thing, and the only other alternative for their race is the enemy NPC.

Look at the orders, look at the pirates, look at Lion's Arch. There are those people that don't fit into their society.

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Asura are the same, as they have the Inquest (I think that's right... could be wrong) always fighting against them. Maybe one asura wants to go out fighting the bad guys in a giant hunting party? All of the races have this good or bad version of themselves, but they never mix with one another's culture which is odd considering there are charr living amongst asura and sylvari amongst humans, etc.
Obviously they mixed it up a little bit with the orders (so an asura working for the vigil would like a sword more than science or magic). However, that's only their role being mixed. I'd like to see their actual culture mixed together so you could have an asura who believes in the six gods, etc. Maybe he or she even has a mad plan to become a god for all of the humans. Damn, now I want that story in Guild Wars 2 :P

In LA you can hear the NPC's having discussion about their different races. I especially like the charr and human kids playing together and talking about how they don't understan their parent's dislike for each others race.

#42 Robsy128

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:19 AM

View PostBuddhaKeks, on 12 December 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Well we actually do see that in some way. You can meet a reaper of Grenth in the Cathedral of Silence personal story step. It's not the gods themselves, but it proofs they are still around and not happy with the dragon's corruption.

Everything you described is already in the game. For the asura the gods are important parts of the eternal alchemie (this believe was also shown in GW1). The norn don't pray to their animal spirits but honor them, and they do honor the human gods as "spirits of action". (Balthazar for example is simply "War"). Sylvari have never seen them, so they don't know if they exist, but the reaper of Grenth is a good hint, so they may acknowledge them sooner or later. Lastly the charr hate them, as they brought victory to the humans, but they still acknowledge their power. They'd generally would try to kill them, but they are also very opportunistic, they wouldn't above using their power to defeat a bigger thread like the dragons.

While I agree the ending was a little... anticlimactic to say the least, was Prophecies really better? Atleast in my opinion it wasn't. We spent the whole time fighting the Mursaat yet that Lich out of nowhere (yeah I know he appears before but never in front of the player, except in this paper-thin disgise) just steals our well-deserved kill and introduces a new threat in the very last minute.
Besides, if you wonder why the gods are gone, you can come up with theories. I always liked that about GW (and the Elder Scrolls series as another example). So much is left open, not to much though, so it doesn't become annoying. But you never get the full story told, you have to search for clues and make up theories. Sometimes they are utterly wrong, other times they turn out to be right, when new contents lifts the veil.

Look at the orders, look at the pirates, look at Lion's Arch. There are those people that don't fit into their society.

In LA you can hear the NPC's having discussion about their different races. I especially like the charr and human kids playing together and talking about how they don't understand their parent's dislike for each others race.

True, but it would be much more epic to have the gods themselves involved in some way. Or perhaps they're dealing with a bigger threat and hint at this, whilst they give Tyria as little help as possible (but still give help) with the threat of the dragons.

I mean as options for the player, to make our personal stories truly unique. Why must a norn honour the animals? Why do we have to fit in with everyone else? Why can't an asura think they're blessed by Balthazar or Melandru? Why can't a sylvari join one of the colleges at Rata Sum? I can understand that each starting race should be unique, but I think that they would be more open to various races living in their cities, thus also being a part of their way of life. I mean, if you look at the real world nowadays, you don't see people shutting the villages to anyone other than British. We have all kinds of people live and work here, and they all have different cultures. I can't see why it wouldn't be the same in Guild Wars 2.

I liked prophecies. It certainly had a better ending than Guild Wars 2! At least it attempted a twist in it. Guild Wars 2 was more like: 'yeah, run around a bit, we know what the real threat is. Now go and sort out the Divinity's Edge teenage crisis. Good, now let's take a side seat whilst a sylvari becomes the hero and then we'll go and fire cannons at a dragon!'  We didn't become more powerful or go on an epic quest to go from village person to world-renowned hero. At least in Guild Wars 1 we had to get so far and then become infused so we could continue on.

Yeah, but there must be variety in the racial cities themselves. There's no way that everyone would think exactly the same way in a city like Rata Sum or the Black Citadel. Sure, you have the voice-over arguments in the streets sometimes, but you never hear of a charr in the Black Citadel trying to convert charr to worship the six gods or to honour the animal spirits. They all seem to have the same opinion.

#43 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:34 AM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

True, but it would be much more epic to have the gods themselves involved in some way. Or perhaps they're dealing with a bigger threat and hint at this, whilst they give Tyria as little help as possible (but still give help) with the threat of the dragons.

I mean as options for the player, to make our personal stories truly unique. Why must a norn honour the animals? Why do we have to fit in with everyone else? Why can't an asura think they're blessed by Balthazar or Melandru? Why can't a sylvari join one of the colleges at Rata Sum? I can understand that each starting race should be unique, but I think that they would be more open to various races living in their cities, thus also being a part of their way of life. I mean, if you look at the real world nowadays, you don't see people shutting the villages to anyone other than British. We have all kinds of people live and work here, and they all have different cultures. I can't see why it wouldn't be the same in Guild Wars 2.

I liked prophecies. It certainly had a better ending than Guild Wars 2! At least it attempted a twist in it. Guild Wars 2 was more like: 'yeah, run around a bit, we know what the real threat is. Now go and sort out the Divinity's Edge teenage crisis. Good, now let's take a side seat whilst a sylvari becomes the hero and then we'll go and fire cannons at a dragon!'  We didn't become more powerful or go on an epic quest to go from village person to world-renowned hero. At least in Guild Wars 1 we had to get so far and then become infused so we could continue on.

Yeah, but there must be variety in the racial cities themselves. There's no way that everyone would think exactly the same way in a city like Rata Sum or the Black Citadel. Sure, you have the voice-over arguments in the streets sometimes, but you never hear of a charr in the Black Citadel trying to convert charr to worship the six gods or to honour the animal spirits. They all seem to have the same opinion.

The dragons consume magic, the gods are pretty much a huge pile of magic. What do you think would happen if a dragon eats a god (Jormag shows they are capable of doing so by eating the Owl Spirit). Besides that using anything purely magic based on them seems rather ineffective. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why the Pact forces relied so much on Charr technology and why the ancient races couldn't defeat them with magic alone. So in any way, I don't think the gods would be too much of a help, that's probably why they are gone.

You can always "rp" (for the lack of a better term) your character how you like it. I mean, I don't rp, but in my mind my characters are all unique in a way. My Norn engi for example reveres the Mad King Thorn as the spirit of Madness. A friend of mine is even upset that so many things about your character is set in stone, when he played human he hated all the possible choices. I think in this case less could be more, as you can never make everyone happy. There are always people that would like to have, let's say a pirate backstory on their character, others would hate that.

Also you have to keep in mind that Tyria is not like our globalize world, it's more like a mix of middle-ages to industrial revolution. During that time, different cultures didn't mix up that much, unless one colonized the other. Mostly due to the lack of cheap and quick transportation. Now Tyria has the asura portals, but we know from NPC dialog that they are not for free use. I guess the average tyrian can't afford to travel to another city and expect to make a living there. Besides many races still have issues with each other, if not for the dragons they would never work together.

If you liked proph good for you, I didn't, to me the story had to many plot holes and it wasn't presented very well. I didn't like Factions that much either. Nightfall had a rather well written story with likeable characters (Palawa Freakin' Joko!) and so did EotN. In proph however I never quite understood why my character keeps going after leading the ascalonians to saftey. The reason you help the white mantle with finding the chosen, seems rather shallow. If I were in this situation I would probably stay in that ascalonian settlement. "I'm not even believing in your unseen gods why should I care about your rituals?" From that on it just goes downhill for me. The Southern Shiverpeaks bit is quite good, but it falls apart again when you defeat the leaders of the mantle and the Stone Summit in one single mission. Even more anticlimactic than the last mission.

Now GW2's storyline isn't really good either, but it has less plot holes, it just suffers from the horrible Trahearne and Zhaitan's complete lack of personality. His minions are the ones giving away his motives, the dragon himself just seems to be a mindless beast (which he isn't as his minions and Krallkatorrik in EoD proof). That said, I still liked the boss battle. It could have been done better, way better, but the atmosphere was there. All your efforts finally come into motion. By the time of the end battle Zhaitan is serverly weakend. This could have been made more obvious though.

I don't think a charr worshipping the six, no worshipping anyone would live very long. At least not if he admits it openly and tries to convert other charr. Charr have a history of being enslaved by worshippers, that's pretty much the biggest culture shapening thing that happened to them in the past years, besides the peace treaty with the humans. I could however see a norn revering the six, or an asura studying them. It's just something that wouldn't be very common. You would meet such people in a quest. However they would never be enough to have an impact on their capital city.

#44 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:12 AM

GW2 lore, in its current state, is quickly becoming untenable due to the sheer amount of information and overlap introduced. Personally, I actually sympathize with OP's viewpoints quite a bit.

In my opinion, in storytelling, it is extremely easy to tell a tale of good versus evil. It is even easier to tell a story where everyone is ambiguous in nature - the recent trend in fantasy literature starting from the 90s tell us that much. It is, however, much more difficult for authors to tell a story that draws a line between what is "good" and what is "evil" and stick to it firmly. Novice students in the humanities often mistaken this ambiguity for complexity, and will harp on endlessly about the "complex" and "intriguing" nature of the character design like most good sheep are without realizing that once you've seen one morally conflicted ambiguous character, you've really seen them all.

Do we need "good" and "evil?" I believe so, but only because I'm interested in reading about a fundamental conflict that is prevalent within the genre. There are both great examples and counterexamples in the classics that is easily googable.

For instance. The Charr are poorly developed, story-wise, in their current form. Too many direct parallels are drawn to real-life counterparts, but the devs don't appear to have actually given it much thought beyond "oh hey this is kinda cool let's put it in." Their empire and legion, when boiled down to the basics, is basically a schizo fusion of Romans/Mongols/Every other "nomadic" "conqueroring" civilization without an ounce of the complexity behind the running of an actual civilization. When it comes down to it, the charr has one and only one notable trait, and that they're really, really good at fightin' (I suspect that you could likely rally da boyz in a similar fashion, but that's a point for another time). The legions have a lot of structural problems that are only hinted at in the game without clear resolution, and their single-minded "HATE ALL GODS RAWR" is boring at best, and a poor plot device at worst. The focus on the industrialization of the charr could have been an interesting point of observation, but they instead skip to modern day and hand us a bunch of non-operative tanks for us to look at.

Now, they would have been much better in GW2 was a de novo game. The charr made a memorable experience to me as villains in the first game - second only to the mursaat in my opinion. However, given how much we know about the charr and their culture, it is jarring to varying degrees to older players. I think that is at least a part of the reason for OP's frustrations.

The "forced alliance" of the five races feel contrived and rushed, and the Sylvari felt like the devs realized they need something less grimdark, so suddenly they shoehorn in an Arthurian derived race of plants that has very little criticism, in game, by the other races. I would accuse the Sylvari of being a raceful of Mary-Sues, but we have Traherp to take care of that for us.

My tldr: I'm not really impressed by GW2's lore. Given how much dev time that is present, and the inherent difficulty in synthesizing that for the masses (who require information in bite-sized chunks, and no more), I think they did a good enough job for what's out there.

In other words. Gonna give it another six years or so before tackling the question again. ;)

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 12 December 2012 - 03:24 AM.


#45 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:21 AM

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I guess you can wait for GW3...
  • The whole game will take place during the actual guild wars
  • You will be able to visit pre-searing Ascalon and Orr before it sunk.
  • Kryta will not be taken over by Ascalonians and as such will maintain their unique culture - facepaint and all
  • The whole game will be a giant WvWvW with the three factions being Ascalon, Orr and Kryta
  • Humans will be the only race allowing for in depth storytelling and a wide variety of armor skins as the devs will not have to code for other races (I mean 80% of the players rolled humans in GW2 anyway)
  • The old skill system will be used; stapled on to GW2's action combat creating a high depth combat system
  • Monks complete with protective spirit so that the combat itself stays organized and not zergy
/dream

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...of ArenaNet


GW1 lore was definitely superior. We had so many major aspects of the game to speculate on: Specific landmarks, the seers, the mursaat, the wizard's castle thing, the secret shadow that covered that one river, the druids, that time traveler dude... there were so many interesting topics to speculate about. GW2 has a ton of NPC's and side tales in it, i'm sure, but everything is all laid out, and the stuff that isn't easy to follow is so minor there's no point in starting any speculation about them.

#46 Mordachai1977

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:56 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

It was in the Vigil story line, a orb that would defend people from getting undead. :)
Everyone sees it in the Fort Trinity personal story quest.

And how awesome it might be to "meet" the gods again, I think it's impossible because of the different races. :/

Actually, it depends on the choice you make after visiting Orr through the pale tree's portal. If you chose the "condemn a friend to agony" route, you get the mission to steal the orb; your choice of order is irrelevant ( i was part of the priory when i did it).

As for the storyline, i like it. I can even stomach trahearne's voiceacting. Sure, it has its flaws but pretty much every storyline does. Guildwars 1's storyline wasnt awardwinning literature either.

#47 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:18 AM

View Postdraxynnic, on 11 December 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Regarding the breaking of Stormcaller... I'd personally regard that as an unwise move if it was done by the three playable legions, given how useful it would be against the Flame Legion. As a result, I suspect it was the Flame Legion that instigated that before the rebellion occurred.
I disagree. Stormcaller is magic, so why would the three legions who were intend on not using magic not break it? Why wouldn't the Flame Legion who are all about magic break it?

Of course, it might be a case of "this thing gave us trouble in the past, lets make sure it doesn't again."

View PostRobsy128, on 11 December 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

But what about a norn who doesn't worship the animals or the dragon or anything for that matter?
That's kind of like asking a Christian to believe in Shiva.

The norn have their own culture and just like many other cultures has its own faith. But that doesn't mean they don't exist - you have charr who are not Flame but believe in the gods after all. They're just a minority.

The norn are a single "nation" (for lack of a better term) just as the charr, asura, humans, and sylvari are in GW2. So they share the same culture and in their culture their faith is entwined.

If we ever go to other lands and find these races there, then we'll see alterations to these cultures. Just as we see alterations to human culture in Cantha, where their faith revolves equally with their ancestors than just the gods.

I think people expect fantasy races to be too much like modern humans in terms of culture - the issue is that they're not (nor can) be as widespread as modern humans. It's more accurate to compare a single fantasy race to a single nation - and Lion's Arch is more or less the equivalent of the US which has a mixture of cultures.

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#48 Craywulf

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:07 AM

This thread is full of irony....go to original http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/ and search out any of the lore threads, guess what everyone was requesting information on? Elder dragons and other races like The Forgotten, Charr, and the Dwarves. Only other topics were the bloodstones and the Gods connections with other races.

Suddenly we get more lore of other races in GW2, and people are bitching? Get a grip!

Oh and be patient, we will hear about the bloodstones again.

#49 fatrodmc

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:27 AM

View PostBriar, on 11 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I guess you can wait for GW3...
  • The whole game will take place during the actual guild wars
  • You will be able to visit pre-searing Ascalon and Orr before it sunk.
  • Kryta will not be taken over by Ascalonians and as such will maintain their unique culture - facepaint and all
  • The whole game will be a giant WvWvW with the three factions being Ascalon, Orr and Kryta
  • Humans will be the only race allowing for in depth storytelling and a wide variety of armor skins as the devs will not have to code for other races (I mean 80% of the players rolled humans in GW2 anyway)
  • The old skill system will be used; stapled on to GW2's action combat creating a high depth combat system
  • Monks complete with protective spirit so that the combat itself stays organized and not zergy
/dream

You sir, are a god damn genius!

If I give you money can you make this game?

#50 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 11 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Elves were not even close to perfect. They shed more of their own blood than any other race over some silly stones one of them made. They routinely slaughtered dwarves and even humans in conquest during the 1st and 2nd age. They were incredibly cruel and completely indifferent to the sufferings of men at the end of the 3rd age. They sent some small force as a show, but most were creeping out the back door on boats, hell with Middle Earth, off to paradise!!!!

Why am I being a lore monger about Tolkien on a GW2 board? I have no clue. Knee jerk reflex. Sorry...

No, no, I meant visually. They were all these beautiful, next to perfect beings. Prettyboys and -girls most of them. But yeah, they have some pretty cruel history. Where humans range from godlike to Golumesque acne covered geeks, the Elves were all just pretty, some more than others. And the Dwarves? All these robust, manly men with quirky extra characteristics. Actually, as I remember it Tolkien actually made little jokes throughout his works about how much his different races tended to be very similar within their ranks.

But yeah, to not get too off topic I'd like to say that the GW races have a rich history as well. The Charr for instance are warmongers, but weren't the first to attack. They see it as their right to reclaim their homeland, while the humans think they've got just as much right over these lands if not more, making the Charr/Human conflict much like the Palestine/Israel conflict of today (I say this as a comparison without taking any sides, note this so we don't get political in this thread!)

My point was that all the races were just watered down humans, and to make them seem sort of different you create a different lore where you exaggerate these human characteristics so they no longer seem human. Want to make a warmonger race? Then take war as we know it, because we have no other point of reference, and exaggerate it to the point where World War 2 would seem like a child's game. Want to make a gorgeous race? Then take human beauty and exaggerate it to the point where Megan Fox would look like a 90 year old washed up prostitute. Etc.

#51 Red J

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

I'll be honest. I would be happy if they got rid of Asura.

Asura are still the same one-dimensional race of arrogant mad scientists they were in EotN. This description can be applied to literally every single member of the species. It's like if Arenanet wasn't sure if they want them to be serious or just comic relief race and stopped right in the middle- too arrogant and self-centric to be likeable and too ridiculous and exaggerated to be taken seriously. Compared to norns, who IMO made quite a progress in becoming (almost) believable culture, Asura are still stuck to one trope.

#52 draxynnic

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:10 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 12 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

I disagree. Stormcaller is magic, so why would the three legions who were intend on not using magic not break it? Why wouldn't the Flame Legion who are all about magic break it?

Of course, it might be a case of "this thing gave us trouble in the past, lets make sure it doesn't again."
Short answer is "because it's a weapon that's at its most effective against the Flame Legion."

Longer answer is that while the other legions may not be so fond of magic, they're also not inclined to throw away a potentially useful tool. That being the case, locking it up would seem more prudent than breaking it. It could be a case of "let's not let it cause trouble in the future", but given that the Flame was definitely in charge when the charr consolidated into Rin and the Flame Legion don't seem to be much into non-fire magic these days, my proverbial money would be on the Flame Legion breaking it. Mind you, we'll probably never know.

View PostSword Hammer Axe, on 12 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

But yeah, to not get too off topic I'd like to say that the GW races have a rich history as well. The Charr for instance are warmongers, but weren't the first to attack.
That's debatable, actually. There are indications that the charr weren't native to Ascalon (the grawl were, and the charr took over) and the fact that they were fighting with the Forgotten on their southern border suggests that humans may have been sent to assist the Forgotten, if not attacked by the charr themselves.

Balthazar's 'go forth and conquer' proclamation does weaken that possibility, but doesn't rule it out.
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#53 matsif

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:39 PM

View PostRed J, on 12 December 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'll be honest. I would be happy if they got rid of Asura.

Asura are still the same one-dimensional race of arrogant mad scientists they were in EotN. This description can be applied to literally every single member of the species. It's like if Arenanet wasn't sure if they want them to be serious or just comic relief race and stopped right in the middle- too arrogant and self-centric to be likeable and too ridiculous and exaggerated to be taken seriously. Compared to norns, who IMO made quite a progress in becoming (almost) believable culture, Asura are still stuck to one trope.

agreed.  Norn culture has expanded, charr culture has expanded, human culture kinda took a downturn imo (but expected as Kryta is the only real human nation left in Tyria and we have no access to Elona or Cantha), and the Sylvari culture is basically brand new as they've only been around a short while (although I feel Sylvari as a race is an afterthought and just as boring as the Asura).  Asura culture has not changed whatsoever, and they are frankly boring to me.  The dwarves were definitely a deeper, richer culture in GW1 and I would have preferred them to be playable instead of being written off to staying underground as rocks battling Primordius.

Anet's "wider instead of deeper" stance on lore in GW2 honestly to me is filling out to be "lets introduce a ton of lore with no real content to it."  So many new races were introduced, new factions to the old races, new locations in Tyria, so much is "new" but not fleshed out to a degree that makes them deep enough to hold my interest.  Instead of being able to find answers through the game for specific lines of content, the game shoots hundreds of questions at you then never truly answers them to a degree that is satisfying.

#54 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:31 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 12 December 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

That being the case, locking it up would seem more prudent than breaking it.
That is unless it was broken before they took Rin, or even during. Shattering the Ascalonian's biggest hope in the battle in a literal sense would be a common war tactic to demoralize them.

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#55 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

On some part, i agree with the OP. GW2 design of those races are pure senseless lore, i chose sylvari at beginning amazed of this race, thinking it would fit my future necro etc. To be honest, if i was a human or a norn or whatever, didn't change a damn of my feeling of him at all. Let's not mention those karkas, oh please. I still laugh when i read Lore sections, of people attempting to figure out what the hell is arah, i laugh about it pointing the senseless of it at all, nor bound to any gw1 lore, and invited to leave haha :D
What we have is just some variation just to not be the monotone human only mmo , hey it's 2012, right? :zzz:

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 12 December 2012 - 04:01 PM.


#56 Robsy128

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostBuddhaKeks, on 12 December 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

The dragons consume magic, the gods are pretty much a huge pile of magic. What do you think would happen if a dragon eats a god (Jormag shows they are capable of doing so by eating the Owl Spirit). Besides that using anything purely magic based on them seems rather ineffective. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why the Pact forces relied so much on Charr technology and why the ancient races couldn't defeat them with magic alone. So in any way, I don't think the gods would be too much of a help, that's probably why they are gone.

You can always "rp" (for the lack of a better term) your character how you like it. I mean, I don't rp, but in my mind my characters are all unique in a way. My Norn engi for example reveres the Mad King Thorn as the spirit of Madness. A friend of mine is even upset that so many things about your character is set in stone, when he played human he hated all the possible choices. I think in this case less could be more, as you can never make everyone happy. There are always people that would like to have, let's say a pirate backstory on their character, others would hate that.

Also you have to keep in mind that Tyria is not like our globalize world, it's more like a mix of middle-ages to industrial revolution. During that time, different cultures didn't mix up that much, unless one colonized the other. Mostly due to the lack of cheap and quick transportation. Now Tyria has the asura portals, but we know from NPC dialog that they are not for free use. I guess the average tyrian can't afford to travel to another city and expect to make a living there. Besides many races still have issues with each other, if not for the dragons they would never work together.

If you liked proph good for you, I didn't, to me the story had to many plot holes and it wasn't presented very well. I didn't like Factions that much either. Nightfall had a rather well written story with likeable characters (Palawa Freakin' Joko!) and so did EotN. In proph however I never quite understood why my character keeps going after leading the ascalonians to saftey. The reason you help the white mantle with finding the chosen, seems rather shallow. If I were in this situation I would probably stay in that ascalonian settlement. "I'm not even believing in your unseen gods why should I care about your rituals?" From that on it just goes downhill for me. The Southern Shiverpeaks bit is quite good, but it falls apart again when you defeat the leaders of the mantle and the Stone Summit in one single mission. Even more anticlimactic than the last mission.

Now GW2's storyline isn't really good either, but it has less plot holes, it just suffers from the horrible Trahearne and Zhaitan's complete lack of personality. His minions are the ones giving away his motives, the dragon himself just seems to be a mindless beast (which he isn't as his minions and Krallkatorrik in EoD proof). That said, I still liked the boss battle. It could have been done better, way better, but the atmosphere was there. All your efforts finally come into motion. By the time of the end battle Zhaitan is serverly weakend. This could have been made more obvious though.

I don't think a charr worshipping the six, no worshipping anyone would live very long. At least not if he admits it openly and tries to convert other charr. Charr have a history of being enslaved by worshippers, that's pretty much the biggest culture shapening thing that happened to them in the past years, besides the peace treaty with the humans. I could however see a norn revering the six, or an asura studying them. It's just something that wouldn't be very common. You would meet such people in a quest. However they would never be enough to have an impact on their capital city.

Yeah, I can understand that the dragons can consume magic. I was just thinking that the gods should help the races (or at least the humans) in some way to fight the dragons. Maybe they could tell them to go somewhere because they know of a weapon that can be used against the dragons, or perhaps there's something in the world that can prevent the dragons from consuming the gods. I personally would love to see a god fight a dragon and lose, thus making the dragon even more powerful than before. It would be a good idea because at the moment the world doesn't feel very threatened. The gods are a symbol of hope, more than anything, so it would be a bit of a wakeup call to see a god fall to a dragon. Then you know how serious things really are.

As for the world and characters, yeah, maybe suggesting that we have those options in the character creation screen was a bad idea. But we should be exposed more to the people who are different than their stereotypes. We should definitely have quests like 'protect the charr mother from the flame legion' or 'help the asura chef collect food for the wedding ceremony and protect the wedding cake.' Okay, they're not the best quests in the world, but they'd make us see more of the races rather than: 'RAWRR, I'm a big scary charr. I kill everything in my way!' or 'I'm a mad asura genius! I invented the H34TR-XYQ Golem!'

I think Zhaitan was meant to be the Guild Wars 2 equivalent of Sauron from Lord of the Rings. You saw the armies doing the bidding but you never saw him. I thought that was pretty good idea, but it was executed badly. You never really felt like the world was in danger. I mean, people mentioned the threat of the dragons at the very beginning, but put it this way: if the dragons are flying beasts of great power, what's stopping them from flying over Divinity's Reach or the Black Citadel and burning everything? One dragon literally made a line of destruction down the map, yet we're meant to believe that they're waiting for us to go to them and fight them? It doesn't really add up.

#57 FoxBat

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostRobsy128, on 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

yet we're meant to believe that they're waiting for us to go to them and fight them?

While I agree this is lame, It's an MMO, what else are you going to do? Pick more suitable villans maybe...

"Loyal soldier" option for Charr shows a different side of their society with the scrappers. The Arcane Council also deserves some cred for being more Machiavellian than mad, and the OoW attack on Orr features a lower-class Asura.  There could be more such things, but there are some at least.

Edited by FoxBat, 12 December 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#58 Robsy128

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 12 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

While I agree this is lame, It's an MMO, what else are you going to do? Pick more suitable villans maybe...

"Loyal soldier" option for Charr shows a different side of their society with the scrappers. The Arcane Council also deserves some cred for being more Machiavellian than mad, and the OoW attack on Orr features a lower-class Asura.  There could be more such things, but there are some at least.

Just add some lore or explanation to say why the dragons haven't destroyed us all yet, maybe? Like: "the dragons used a lot of power when awakening and so they have returned to hibernating in order to recover their strength" or something.

I think they should expand on the races a little bit more and show us the other sides of their cultures to make them feel more alive :)

#59 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 12 December 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:


That's debatable, actually. There are indications that the charr weren't native to Ascalon (the grawl were, and the charr took over) and the fact that they were fighting with the Forgotten on their southern border suggests that humans may have been sent to assist the Forgotten, if not attacked by the charr themselves.

Balthazar's 'go forth and conquer' proclamation does weaken that possibility, but doesn't rule it out.

But we can be sure that the Charr had the lands before the humans at least. :)

#60 lmaonade

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

While I don't agree that the other races are 1 dimensional and should be axed, I do agree that Anet has spread themselves too thin. GW1 weaved the lore (read: lore, not just backstory) into it's campaigns quite often and quite well, I feel as if that's totally missing in GW2 (with the exception of Arah exploration), all of it is just current events from a narrow perspective, we don't get to see what's happening with the world or the what happened with the world. Most of the historical lore you can find in GW2 is housed in the Durmand Priory, in text, instead of written into the game more interactively, that's pretty poor effort imo :\ Arenanet has spread itself too thin with all these races, and gave them (and the world for that matter) very little depth.

Edited by lmaonade, 12 December 2012 - 11:00 PM.





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