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Raids in GW2?


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#1 Fanatic

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

So my question is do you think it work with raids in GW2?

I myself would love to have some raids to do something that needs 15+ coordinated friends to beat and i have never understood why so many on are against it. If we would get raids in GW2 that dose not mean we will get vertical progression. why would we need that? They could make it so you could get cool looking armor sets from those raids and the prestige of killing that hard boss all in the name of fun. The best thing about such a raid system would be that there wont be any raids that go obsolete  because there is no vertical progression.

So what do you think? would it be good/bad with raids give us your thoughts on this topic and if you hate raids so much please do tell why.

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#2 Rytlock Bigpaw

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

I would agree if the rewards were cool looking gear ONLY

#3 GrandmaFunk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:44 PM

how would a "raid" be different from the dungeons we have now besides allowing more players in the instance?

#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostGrandmaFunk, on 11 December 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

how would a "raid" be different from the dungeons we have now besides allowing more players in the instance?

Apparently people associate greater skill with the ability to herd cats.
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#5 Dosearius

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

this again?  Really?  For goodness sake, let GW2 be GW2...I don't want it to be WoW...if I did, I would play THAT instead.  You want a raid?...go take Stonemist Castle.

#6 Enscheff

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:59 PM

I can think of a few mechanics right off the top of my head:

Require the group to split up and take out targets at the same time.

Require the mob to die within a certain time limit to require the DPS of 20 people.

Have lots and lots of mobs spawn that would overwhelm less than 20 players.

Have a mob that freezes 10 people at any given time that must be unfrozen by fellow players, all the while requiring the unfrozen people to keep the mob busy. Maybe if the mob hits a frozen player they die?

Just because you had a bad experience with raids in other games does not make that playstyle any less fun or worthwhile.

Edited by Enscheff, 11 December 2012 - 10:00 PM.


#7 Darkobra

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Most of the time it's hard to co-ordinate 5 people or even get 5 in one dungeon. 25? Nope.

#8 Matsy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:07 PM

The 5 player limit was chosen in part because its hard enough for the majority of the player base (casuals) to get 5 competent people in a party let alone 10-25 people.  Raids would only appeal to a small minority of players.

I'm all for raids if it was purely cosmetic, but they aren't the most pressing issue atm, they are very low priority.

Edited by Matsy, 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM.


#9 Asudementio

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 11 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Most of the time it's hard to co-ordinate 5 people or even get 5 in one dungeon. 25? Nope.

Coordination on that scale is certainly possible you just need incentive. I am in favor of raids in GW2 which focus on multiple groups of players in a single instance tackling multiple objectives and coordinating with one another to progress. Rewards such as Guild trophies and unique weapons/armor would be cool.

#10 Enscheff

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 11 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Most of the time it's hard to co-ordinate 5 people or even get 5 in one dungeon. 25? Nope.

Exactly, which is why I find it rather amusing to see the snide comments about "herding kittens" as if it is trivial to get 20+ people to work together.

What else should I expect though from the game where 5 people just kites mobs around while they solo in the same general area and call it "grouping"?

Edited by Enscheff, 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM.


#11 Bloodtau

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

View PostGrandmaFunk, on 11 December 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

how would a "raid" be different from the dungeons we have now besides allowing more players in the instance?

Because the game would actually have content for bigger social PVE guilds to do then.

#12 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

I don't understand..

The more people you get, the less skill is involved..
Why does everyone think if you make 15-25man instances that it will be much harder?
Compare in GW1:
1) HA to TA: HA was just spike fest while TA needed some serious coordination.
2) The Deep/Urgoz to FoW/UW: the 12 man instances were a joke.. Just bring AoE and healers and spam through. While UW needed much more skill.

In most raid MMO's the raids are just about getting enough DPS, a tank and some healers, and then spam away..
Yes dungeons in GW2 are easy, but raids in other games are just as easy.

#13 GrandmaFunk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Because the game would actually have content for bigger social PVE guilds to do then.

...wouldn't that fall under "besides allowing more players in the instance?" ?

I'm not asking/debating it's worth, I'm legitemately asking what the difference is.. what makes a raid a raid.

#14 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Because the game would actually have content for bigger social PVE guilds to do then.

And why do those guilds don't do dungeons together?
Or go in Orr and do the temple events? Those are pretty hard if not with enough people.
WvW is also an option, PvP is more intresting in every way..

#15 BabyChooChoo

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:15 PM

I would get behind this idea on a few conditions:
  • Dungeon/Raid finder. At this point, they might as well throw it in. All anyone does in LA map chat (or any map with a dungeon in it...) is stand around spamming the same message over and over.

  • Varying levels of difficulty. Some people think PvE as it is now is too easy. Some think it's just fine. Have raids scale, or add a normal/hard mode option, or something. Anything. Pretty much, just add enough choices/options/variety/whatever so that every type of player feels included.

  • And, I feel this is a given, but, assuming they're lengthy, a way to save progress would be nice. People got **** to do!


#16 Enscheff

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 December 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

I don't understand..

The more people you get, the less skill is involved..
Why does everyone think if you make 15-25man instances that it will be much harder?
Compare in GW1:
1) HA to TA: HA was just spike fest while TA needed some serious coordination.
2) The Deep/Urgoz to FoW/UW: the 12 man instances were a joke.. Just bring AoE and healers and spam through. While UW needed much more skill.

In most raid MMO's the raids are just about getting enough DPS, a tank and some healers, and then spam away..
Yes dungeons in GW2 are easy, but raids in other games are just as easy.

This just shows a complete lack of understanding about "good" raid mechanics.

Make the group split up into smaller groups and require them to coordinate attacks.

Make the mob put a debuff on a person every 30 seconds that they must cure or they die and spawn adds the raid has to deal with. One person not paying attention means a wipe, so more people is actually a disadvantage.

There are so many ways to make better content than the 5 man garbage GW2 currently has. The curent content is nothing more than 5 people soloing in the same area trying to keep themeselves alive while trying to tag as many mobs as possible for loot.

The ONLY content in GW2 that even resembles a good group mechanic is Jade Maw. The rest are just zergfests with more HP and DPS than the completely trivial open world zergfests. Everything else is just a matter of keeping yourself alive by kiting so you can loot the sparkling corpses at the end of the fight.

Edited by Enscheff, 11 December 2012 - 10:23 PM.


#17 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostEnscheff, on 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Exactly, which is why I find it rather amusing to see the snide comments about "herding kittens" as if it is trivial to get 20+ people to work together.

What else should I expect though from the game where 5 people just kites mobs around while they solo in the same general area and call it "grouping"?

Because it is herding cats.  It's not necessarily trivial, but I've always found individual effort to be very undercut by the addition of more bodies.  And half the time, all you had to do was tell those bodies what to do.

There were very few fights in raiding where individual effort was highly prized.  Teron Gorefiend in WoW springs to mind.  If you, as a person, did not know your shit, you *ed your group on that fight.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#18 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

What the game needs now is casual, on demand content not more of this hardcore crap. Preferably something that scales and doesn't demand a group with a set number of people - meaning that people could solo it, do it in pairs or go at it as a 5 man party.

#19 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

View PostProtoss, on 11 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

What the game needs now is casual, on demand content not more of this hardcore crap. Preferably something that scales and doesn't demand a group with a set number of people - meaning that people could solo it, do it in pairs or go at it as a 5 man party.

You mean... dynamic events?
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#20 Levistis

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

This idea would definitely work, ArenaNet would just need to implement cool mechanics.

#21 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

View PostEnscheff, on 11 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

This just shows a complete lack of understanding about "good" raid mechanics.

Make the group split up into smaller groups and require them to coordinate attacks.

Make the mob put a debuff on a person every 30 seconds that they must cure or they die and spawn adds the raid has to deal with. One person not paying attention means a wipe, so more people is actually a disadvantage.

There are so many ways to make better content than the 5 man garbage GW2 currently has. The curent content is nothing more than 5 people soloing in the same area trying to keep themeselves alive while trying to tag as many mobs as possible for loot.

The ONLY content in GW2 that even resembles a good group mechanic is Jade Maw. The rest are just zergfests with more HP and DPS than the completely trivial open world zergfests. Everything else is just a matter of keeping yourself alive by kiting so you can loot the sparkling corpses at the end of the fight.

Thing is, you call them zergfests, but if you got a good team, no zerging is required.
So there are good mechanics, but only few people use them, and the others just whine about how zergfest it all is..

I am all for harder dungeons, but most preferably in groups of 5, if not possible then max groups of 10, not more.
Any more makes the group of players itself a zerg where individual input is not recognised.

Edited by Gilles VI, 11 December 2012 - 10:32 PM.


#22 Sheepski

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostProtoss, on 11 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

What the game needs now is casual, on demand content not more of this hardcore crap. Preferably something that scales and doesn't demand a group with a set number of people - meaning that people could solo it, do it in pairs or go at it as a 5 man party.

After the many times I've disagreed with you, this is one time I do concur. Right now there's plenty of content that requires groups for either entry and/or efficiency.

It's about time we had some decent, worthwhile solo/small group content that is actually rewarding long term. Ofc my idea of that is subjective..

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#23 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 11 December 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

You mean... dynamic events?

The problem with DEs is that they are not on-demand. A bunch of hardcore players can get together to start a team and then do an explorable dungeon whenever they choose to.
Casual players are completely dependant on the randomness of DEs to provide them with content. And if they miss the DEs (since DEs can and will happen when you are not around), that means they are stuck in an empty game. And trust me, the game is appallingly boring if you luck out of DEs.
And now combine this bullshit of design with the system of waypoint fees and you have a shitty-ass piece of crap on your hands.

I am sorry, between 8 explorable dungeons (each with multiple paths) and 9 fraks, casuals need A.Net's attention more.

Edited by Protoss, 11 December 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#24 Enscheff

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:44 PM

I always thought Fractals were about as casual as you can get without being a single player game...

Go to gw2lfg.com, find a group doing your level, faceroll through the 3 events in 45 minutes, sell your loot. Most can be done with 3/4 people.

How much easier does it need to be?

#25 fatrodmc

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:46 PM

View PostProtoss, on 11 December 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

The problem with DEs is that they are not on-demand. A bunch of hardcore players can get together to start a team and then do an explorable dungeon whenever they choose to.
Casual players are completely dependant on the randomness of DEs to provide them with content. And if they miss the DEs (since DEs can and will happen when you are not around), that means they are stuck in an empty game. And trust me, the game is appallingly boring if you luck out of DEs.
And now combine this bullshit of design with the system of waypoint fees and you have a shitty-ass piece of crap on your hands.

I am sorry, between 8 explorable dungeons (each with multiple paths) and 9 fraks, casuals need A.Net's attention more.

Well actually a lot of them are. A lot of them are just waiting for someone to start off the chain of quests because the map is empty.

And if the event is already in progress, people will happily join it.

The problem seems to be more around getting people on to the maps in the first place...

Edited by fatrodmc, 11 December 2012 - 10:47 PM.


#26 Gremlin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

I agree with those calling for casual content.

One of the things Anet said they were aiming for in GW2 was no waiting around you did not stand around you instead played the game.
To this end they introduced dynamic events you no longer had to pick up a mission in a town then return afterwards for the reward.

They also attempted to remove the waiting for parties in dungeons by removing the dedicated healer and getting rid of the trinity concept.
However they failed to understand the basic stubborn attitude of some players.

You still have to stand around waiting to get onto dungeon parties unless you happen to be running the current favoured class of the month.

I don't care what anet introduces this will always happen.
Why not just do away with these anachronistic dungeons that will always have players held hostage by other players.
It is simply not fun.
Let me go in by myself or with 1 2 or more friends let me fail but at least let me try.

For that matter just make the dungeons exactly like the rest of PVE and let it scale up depending on numbers A Dungeon is simply content that players can only do with the permission of other players and I find that unacceptable and so should anet.

#27 Kymeric

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:59 PM

I wonder if raiding would be possible without a loot treadmill.  Has anyone done 20+ raids in a game where BiS gear wasn't exclusive to raiding?

Top gear is a great motivator to get those 20+ people together.  Would guilds be able to motivate that many people to log on prepared and ready to follow directions for cosmetic rewards?

Honest question.  Reading other game forums, there seems to be a conventional wisdom that raiding would die off if it didn't provide the best gear.  Raiders get pretty freaked out in other games when it is suggested that BiS gear be available by many different avenues, such as crafting, PvP, and open world content.

#28 Robsy128

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

I would have an opinion if I knew what 'raids' were. Not all of us have played WoW ;)

#29 matsif

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostProtoss, on 11 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

What the game needs now is casual, on demand content not more of this hardcore crap. Preferably something that scales and doesn't demand a group with a set number of people - meaning that people could solo it, do it in pairs or go at it as a 5 man party.

agreed.  even though I'd still be a proponent of an urgoz/the deep esque instance (3 parties of 5 in the same instance but in separate levels or something that all meet at one final epic boss), there is still a huge lack of top-level areas in the game which have content that can be done entirely by a small group, that has rewards which are worthwhile.

do I want a 20-25 man super raid dungeon?  absolutely not.  I don't got time for that.  Most dungeons I can do a few paths (full run of AC) and still have the want to keep playing.  I have no interest in entering an instance that is going to take me 5+ hours to complete, to get crapped on by the loot algorithm like I always do.

#30 Dasryn

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

im all for instanced pve content that allows more than 5 players.

not sure if i'd call it a raid though. . . .

but i think it would be cool to allow multiple groups of players all with separate objectives, each group relies on the other groups to advance in the dungeon by completing objectives.  players can swap out groups to help each other if one group hitsa ro*.  after said objectives are achieved, they all meet up in the middle and perform more difficult/large group content for mad lootz.

or just allowing more players join in a dungeon.

this will make guilds more viable in pve instead of just WvW.




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