133 replies to this topic

[Heart Collector]

Yuck, I hate raids and would rather not see them in GW2.

That been said, I would be ok-ish with larger-than-5-man instances if they actually didn't give any more rewards than any other form of PvE and simply gave more unique skins without giving more powerful gear.

What could be fun in this aspect would be "heroic" versions of world bosses that require the guild to get certain items and/or materials in the bosses zone (e.g. Queensdale for Shadow Behemoth) to "summon" the heroic boss every time they want to fight them, encouraging people to actually go to the open world. The boss itself could be phased in order to be kept separate from the "normal" version.

Even so, I'd prefer what Protoss mentioned earlier in the thread, on-demand scaling content (like, say, randomized mini-dungeons within the game world). Truthfully one of the reasons I picked this game was the lack of raiding, and whilst I can imagine large group content implemented I'd rather ANet stuck to their guns and did not implement raids.

[Coren]

Bloody hell, an other raid thread? We've beaten this dead horse already, leave it rest in peace. GW2 doesn't need raids. Full stop.

[Ritualist]

StormDragonZ, on 12 December 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

What this game needs now is getting more people to start playing. More content? You'd think you had plenty to do already in GW2 by now, but apparently it's not quite enough, now is it?

Does the game have tons of content?
Of course it does.
Does that content appeal to everyone?
Given how my guildies or folks on my FList would rather not play GW2, of course it doesn't.

Arewn, on 11 December 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

How are the 8 story modes and 9 fractals NOT for casuals...? They're easy and quick to do and only require a small group.

Story modes are dead and with good reason. They sometimes take longer than explorables and they give absolutely no rewards. Outside of seeing the story, I do not see a single reason why a person would do them, let alone replay them.
As for fraks, the casuals I know have no interest in them. The few times we tried them, we were plagued by bugs, disconnects, had to deal with moronic mechanics (Are the constantly respawning foes a bug? One-shot kills are SO MUCH FUN, especially with no waypoints to rez at! And let's not forget, Agony!), dumb-ass jumping puzzles in a game with shitty controls and as a result, most of the people I play with, just don't play them. Myself included.

[Trei]

Heart Collector, on 12 December 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Yuck, I hate raids and would rather not see them in GW2.

That been said, I would be ok-ish with larger-than-5-man instances if they actually didn't give any more rewards than any other form of PvE and simply gave more unique skins without giving more powerful gear....

I would probably sound unreasonable but I may not be ok even with that.

Try to imagine if one day Blizzard decides that all the exact same highest tier raid gear would be craftable from mats one can get elsewhere in the world without needing a raid group. I dare not.

How many out of the already small percentage of players who want such large group instanced content would do it regularly purely for anything other than exclusive power progression?

I seriously doubt just pretty skins would be enough of a motivation for most players who favors raiding.

Power progression keeps many players raiding in other MMOs; it is not optional to them due to the more powerful gear (and consequently prestige) that one can be rewarded with, character power that cannot be acquired through any other venue in the game.  

Stats are attractive to every player.

Take that out and we are left with optional rewards that really doesn't provide any tangible incentive to players who don't find the new gears' aesthetics attractive to them.

Even if this isn't actually the case in reality, those who cannot raid (note the distinction between them and those who do not want to raid by choice) would still be utterly denied any reward such large scale dungeons offer, be it cosmetic gear or titles or high stats etc.

If I do not get a legendary or an ascended accessory, it would be because I choose not to get them. The means of acquisition are open to me anytime.

But large scale raid content would be locked out for players who may even badly want to, but simply cannot raid; someone else chooses not to let them because they literally cannot log in often, on time, and regularly enough to warrant a much-coveted slot in a large group raid.

Even the most grueling legendary is just a matter of time for any player willing to put in the effort.
Raiding rewards are not a matter of time if one cannot commit his time to 19 other players' schedule.

Edited by Trei, 12 December 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[FoxBat]

Dosearius, on 11 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

this again?  Really?  For goodness sake, let GW2 be GW2...I don't want it to be WoW...

We've got the gear treadmill now, might as well go all the way.

I see this happening to some degree in some expansion down the road. Hopefully some LFG tools come well before that.

[Illein]

I'd rather they go with the outdoor boss models they have right now - which feel a bit raidy - but are far too easy to require any sort of coordinated gameplay. So if they tune those a bit up and make the chest-drops from them less ridiculous (as is an issue across the entire game, sadly) they might have some fun mode for groups of people who enjoy that sort of stuff.

Though I guess the only real way to make it any harder is to put a requirement of support characters into it and then you might as well screw the whole holy-trinity-is-gone concept and go all the way with it - which would suck, so I guess it's better we don't have raids.

[Craywulf]

The word "raid" should be censored on these forums so we don't have to deal with this repetitive nonsense threads.

[Fanatic]

Robsy128, on 11 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

I would have an opinion if I knew what 'raids' were. Not all of us have played WoW

Raids are Dungeon content where you get 15+ of your friends and go take down a big boss that drops exclusive loot for that dungeon. The bosses in raids also generally need a good coordinated group.

[Arewn]

MazingerZ, on 12 December 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

You're speaking of FOTM.  I'm at FOTM level 2.  Bored to tears.  There is no story.  It is random crap.

No, I speak of the REST of the dungeon game.

No one is playing it.

I don't really care, nor does it really matter in this specific discussion, if you like the fractals or not. We were originally talking about available casual content, to which I said fractals and story dungeons(+the easier explore modes).
I admittedly haven't done a story dungeon in quiet some time so perhaps finding a group for it is hard now, but my point on the fractals remains.
And this is an MMO, get some friends and play with them, getting 5 people together doesn't make it 'hardcore' or 'unfriendly to casuals'.
I've got a few online friends who don't regularly play GW2, they hit 80 and that was enough for them, but they'll come do the occasional dungeon if I ask them to log on and come.

Protoss, on 12 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Story modes are dead and with good reason. They sometimes take longer than explorables and they give absolutely no rewards. Outside of seeing the story, I do not see a single reason why a person would do them, let alone replay them.
As for fraks, the casuals I know have no interest in them. The few times we tried them, we were plagued by bugs, disconnects, had to deal with moronic mechanics (Are the constantly respawning foes a bug? One-shot kills are SO MUCH FUN, especially with no waypoints to rez at! And let's not forget, Agony!), dumb-ass jumping puzzles in a game with shitty controls and as a result, most of the people I play with, just don't play them. Myself included.

Right, so first there is nothing for casuals, now it's just that it's not good enough for you.

[ThiaTheMuse]

I'd really rather NOT have raids. I have a fairly small irl-friends guild, we can barely get a group together for a dungeon. I think I would rather have more solo-friendly stuff.

Plus, isn't a raid just like a current dungeon, but with more people? Or like a Shatterer-like event? What's the point? What can raid content bring us that we don't already have? And, maybe more importantly, what can this content bring us that is unique to GW, and not just an effort to appease WoW fans?

[lmaonade]

Arewn, on 12 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I don't really care, nor does it really matter in this specific discussion, if you like the fractals or not. We were originally talking about available casual content, to which I said fractals and story dungeons(+the easier explore modes).
I admittedly haven't done a story dungeon in quiet some time so perhaps finding a group for it is hard now, but my point on the fractals remains.
And this is an MMO, get some friends and play with them, getting 5 people together doesn't make it 'hardcore' or 'unfriendly to casuals'.
I've got a few online friends who don't regularly play GW2, they hit 80 and that was enough for them, but they'll come do the occasional dungeon if I ask them to log on and come.


Right, so first there is nothing for casuals, now it's just that it's not good enough for you.

"good enough"? fractals aren't good at all! dungeon introduced for the sole sake of grinding your ass off in order to grind more (getting ascended to fotm more), how is that good design at all? not only that, it's a randomized dungeon crawler, if i wanted to play a dungeon crawler I'd play one of the 4 Persona games, not an MMO.

ThiaTheMuse, on 12 December 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'd really rather NOT have raids. I have a fairly small irl-friends guild, we can barely get a group together for a dungeon. I think I would rather have more solo-friendly stuff.

Plus, isn't a raid just like a current dungeon, but with more people? Or like a Shatterer-like event? What's the point? What can raid content bring us that we don't already have? And, maybe more importantly, what can this content bring us that is unique to GW, and not just an effort to appease WoW fans?

If properly implemented, GW2's version of "raids" can be content that aligns with GW design philosophy, remember Urgoz Warren and The Deep? That's the type of multi party content that I would definitely want.

Edited by lmaonade, 12 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Fanatic]

Raids that would give only cool gear would work if that gear made you stand out and show that you have done beaten this Large scale group content. I don't think it's all about stats if the gear from 10 man content would give people enought epeen they will do it to feel better than oother people simple as that. Also this content would be optional because of no vertical progression.

Edited by Fanatic, 12 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Trei]

FoxBat, on 12 December 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

We've got the gear treadmill now, might as well go all the way.

I see this happening to some degree in some expansion down the road. Hopefully some LFG tools come well before that.

Let's think about this "gear treadmill" again from another angle.

In the beginning of MMOs with acknowledged treadmilling, who originally enforced this mentality?
Raiders.

Why do raiders need max stats?
So they can make the most out of the night after painstakingly herding 19 kittens organizing and planning for a group of not 2 or 9 but 19 (or 24 etc) guildies to come together at the same time to kill some world-ending dragon.

Don't want to waste the time of so many people and all that effort in scheduling, now do we?
So we need to be able to do the best we can, by using the best gear one can get at that point in time, with all possible extra boosts from consumables too, to kill the boss in the fastest most efficient manner possible, to make it all worthwhile somehow...

Because we also need to do it all again, and again, and again.... until all 20 or 25 of us get what we started doing it for, because the relevant rewards are not guaranteed for each of us even when we succeed.

Now, do we have such raids in GW2?
No...

So why is there still a need to clamor for max stats?
Are exotics not powerful enough to do most of the relevant content in the game with unique rewards?

I see an increasing amount of complaints about how easy the game's high level content is.
Yet, I also see people who feel that they absolutely need to get the most powerful gear available to... make these content even easier.

It doesn't compute.

Edited by Trei, 12 December 2012 - 08:43 AM.

[omar316]

I would really really like a ToVL + World Boss event. That's a good enough raid for me.

[Ritualist]

Arewn, on 12 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Right, so first there is nothing for casuals, now it's just that it's not good enough for you.

While I think that some casuals might find enjoyment in the content available, I don't think the game offers actual on-demand content that would be designed with casuals in mind.
Thus, while some casuals might find enjoyment in fraks, they certainly aren't casual by design. I mean, one normally doesn't create a whole new hardcore tier of gear and then place it in casual content, no?

[Swoopeh]

Heart Collector, on 12 December 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

That been said, I would be ok-ish with larger-than-5-man instances if they actually didn't give any more rewards than any other form of PvE and simply gave more unique skins without giving more powerful gear.

What could be fun in this aspect would be "heroic" versions of world bosses that require the guild to get certain items and/or materials in the bosses zone (e.g. Queensdale for Shadow Behemoth) to "summon" the heroic boss every time they want to fight them, encouraging people to actually go to the open world. The boss itself could be phased in order to be kept separate from the "normal" version.

Even so, I'd prefer what Protoss mentioned earlier in the thread, on-demand scaling content (like, say, randomized mini-dungeons within the game world). Truthfully one of the reasons I picked this game was the lack of raiding, and whilst I can imagine large group content implemented I'd rather ANet stuck to their guns and did not implement raids.

^ this. Personally I'm fine with 5 man dungeons (though they can use some more interesting mechanics instead of "dodge crap, kill mobs") and a raid is nothing more than a dungeon for more people. Usually they are bigger and more epic and have better rewards, but why shouldn't a 5 man be big and epic and have good rewards? Having more players in is more of a convenience thing really. It would be better to have scaling in dungeons so you don't have to have a group of 5 perse. If you have 7 people interested in a dungeon, you need to leave 2 out. But what if you could just enter with 7 and the dungeon would scale upwards? Ofc there should be a lower and upper limit to this (say 3-10 players of something) but it would make things much more flexible. And we could call it "Dynamic Scaling Dungeons" instead of "Raids" and noone would have to rage

[Arquenya]

Rickter, on 12 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

i was thinking the standard 5 for dungeons, then larger content, 8-15 maybe?  i know its hard, but its amazing to see once everything comes together.  lotro and wow are the only two games ive come across that have in game chat services.  VOIP services go a long way in getting organization coordinated.

I understand that but I wonder what's the added value in GW2. After all, there's no real "roles", not a lot of "teamwork" in GW2's dungeons like in those games.

Personally I don't really see the added value of 10 more individual people dodging carpets of red circles and kiting the boss. To me, just greater numbers doesn't neccessarily makes it more epic, unless the dungeon setup is such that cooperation does have some use. Which at the moment definitely isn't really the case. Otherwise it's just a greater chore to get those 15 people together. And bosses having even more hp and doing 1-shot kills.

Edited by Arquenya, 12 December 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Arewn]

lmaonade, on 12 December 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

"good enough"? fractals aren't good at all! dungeon introduced for the sole sake of grinding your ass off in order to grind more (getting ascended to fotm more), how is that good design at all? not only that, it's a randomized dungeon crawler, if i wanted to play a dungeon crawler I'd play one of the 4 Persona games, not an MMO.

Sorry, I'm going to quote this twice because it's important: "dungeon introduced for the sole sake of grinding your ass off in order to grind more"
That's exactly the design used by THE most successful MMORPG in history (WoW) and most MMORPGs today, and it is because of players wanting that kind of thing in GW2 that fractals was introduced the way it is.

And to your other point:
So people shouldn't play WoW/SWToR/etc because they would just play an Elder Scrolls game if they wanted to play an RPG, not play it in an MMO.
So people shouldn't play Planet Side 2 because they would just play a Call of Duty game if they wanted to play a Shooter, not play it in an MMO.
Sorry but that's really terrible reasoning. You're playing an MMO because you want some form of social gratification, the genre of the MMO is a matter of taste in play style (though there aren't that many genres of MMOs, they are getting more diverse and popular). There's nothing wrong with it having dungeon crawler elements.

Protoss, on 12 December 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

While I think that some casuals might find enjoyment in the content available, I don't think the game offers actual on-demand content that would be designed with casuals in mind.
Thus, while some casuals might find enjoyment in fraks, they certainly aren't casual by design. I mean, one normally doesn't create a whole new hardcore tier of gear and then place it in casual content, no?

Fraks strikes me as an experience for all spectrum because it start off really easy and scales up "infinitely".
Casuals can go through the first 10 levels or so without having to worry about Ascended Gear (or even level for the low stuff) and the the like, while the 'hardcore' can shoot up into the higher levels to invest in ascended gear and go up against tougher enemies.
I'm pretty sure I get where you're coming from  with wanting more on demand, highly accessible content. I just find the game already offers a fair share of that, and people are using their dislike for the content as reason to deny it's existence.

Maybe we're just looking at the term "casual" differently. I personally would call myself a "casual" player in GW2, I log on now and again to do a daily, join up with a friend and level a character, maybe hop on a dungeon run, mess around in WvW or spvp, check out the holiday event when they're happening, etc. I've got two level 80s from the first 2 months the game was out, only one of which is in exotics, and a couple other low level characters I play occasionally.
I log on at my leisure and can generally find something to do without needing much, if any, investment to do so (some things more then other of course, I just mean in general). That's what I would call a casual gaming experience, no schedule, no requirement to keep up in rapidly increasing gear, and a nice variety of accessible content to do when ever I log on.

[lmaonade]

Arewn, on 12 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Sorry, I'm going to quote this twice because it's important: "dungeon introduced for the sole sake of grinding your ass off in order to grind more"
That's exactly the design used by THE most successful MMORPG in history (WoW) and most MMORPGs today, and it is because of players wanting that kind of thing in GW2 that fractals was introduced the way it is.

And to your other point:
So people shouldn't play WoW/SWToR/etc because they would just play an Elder Scrolls game if they wanted to play an RPG, not play it in an MMO.
So people shouldn't play Planet Side 2 because they would just play a Call of Duty game if they wanted to play a Shooter, not play it in an MMO.
Sorry but that's really terrible reasoning. You're playing an MMO because you want some form of social gratification, the genre of the MMO is a matter of taste in play style (though there aren't that many genres of MMOs, they are getting more diverse and popular). There's nothing wrong with it having dungeon crawler elements.

yes, I'm playing an MMO to have social gratification, not to be bored out of my mind. And yes dungeon grinding is employed by the most successful MMORPG of all time, but it's not a good design for gaming, the business standpoint is a whole other issue. I recommend some Zero Punctuation from The Escapist for you, extremely cynical and a very niche view of games, but he hates MMOs for a good reason: repetitive tasks are not fun. sure they rake in tons of money, because people are born masochists, but that doesn't mean that it's good design at all.

and how is it terrible reasoning? When I play an MMO I play it because people, whether or not the game is good will dictate  how long i stay with it, but I never use quality as a basis for playtesting an MMO, if the playerbase is dead, the game is dead. When I feel like playing a niche genre that Planetside 2 fulfills I'll play it, but if I want a quality shooter I'd play something else. Same with RPGs, MMORPGs are inherently terrible because they have only the barebone elements of actual RPGs, I played that terrible game PWI for years for my guild, not for the game itself, as it wasn't good at all. If I ever feel like a quality RPG I turn on my PS2.

Oh and there is something wrong with dungeon crawler elements when it's terribly implemented.

Edited by lmaonade, 12 December 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[jirayasan]

I'd like to see the dragons and other world bosses to be harder, much harder. Claw is the hardest dragon atm but he's still easy.

Don't know what ArenaNet thought with when they made world bosses easymode.


Now the dragons are just another farm spot..which annoys me. It should be something epic and difficult to kill with a chance to fail the event and cause swarms of dragonspawn to run across the zones etc.

Edited by jirayasan, 12 December 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Arquenya]

Arewn, on 12 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Sorry, I'm going to quote this twice because it's important: "dungeon introduced for the sole sake of grinding your ass off in order to grind more"
That's exactly the design used by THE most successful MMORPG in history (WoW) and most MMORPGs today, and it is because of players wanting that kind of thing in GW2 that fractals was introduced the way it is.

But you can argue if it was in fact that part of WoW that made it popular. I think there's more factors that contribute to it, otherwise any grind game would have been popular.

So if that same common denominator doesn't seem to be a guarantee for success, it's definitely not the thing that determined WoW's success. In other words: vertical gear progression doesn't automatically mean a successful or popular game.

[Ritualist]

Arewn, on 12 December 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

SI just find the game already offers a fair share of that, and people are using their dislike for the content as reason to deny it's existence.

I wouldn't call a dungeon that is designed to be a "high-end experience" to be casual content. Nor would I call players that run explorable dungeons, content that was designed to be hard and not accessible to a lot of players, casual players - I mean, we hopefully still remember how A.Net went on about explorable dungeons being content that, contrary to the rest of the game, is designed to cater to those 5 or 10% of the players that are much more dedicated.
Nonetheless, there is no need to play a game. So if the game's content does not appeal to players, it's basically the same as the game having no content. With that in mind, it would be nice if the game offered content that would cater to a wider variety of players. And since the game already caters heavily to the hardcore crowd, other options would be preferable.

[lalangamena]

as soon as we will have a grouping tool, raids will be possible.

as far as I concerned fractals are mini-raids.

some of them have very "raidish" mechanics -> the ice elemental in dredge fractal, the titan in cliff-side etc..

if the Medusa boss in underwater could be hurt only while electrified, it would be also a raidish boss mechanic.

[Trei]

Protoss, on 12 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Nonetheless, there is no need to play a game. So if the game's content does not appeal to players, it's basically the same as the game having no content. With that in mind, it would be nice if the game offered content that would cater to a wider variety of players. And since the game already caters heavily to the hardcore crowd, other options would be preferable.

Similar to how an italian restaurant should offer a wider variety of cuisine like north indian or korean, or french... ?
So if I don't like italian food, I should be able to satisfy myself with a gimbap or ten, even though I walked into an italian restaurant.

Refreshing view point .

Edited by Trei, 12 December 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Swoopeh]

With regards to the fractals: disregarding that the levelling and gear progression is grindy, the dungeons themselves are mostly quite nice imho. There are less 1-shot mechanics like the original dungeons and more interesting things like jumping puzzles, having to use fans to keep a room from flooding with poison, kiting a boss under molten lava buckets while 1 player releases them and the whole hammer mechanic with the sigils. It requires more team play and coordination and less "I have 0.5 sec to dodge this 1-shot ability based on an animation that I can't see due to spell effects".

And with regards to grind: technically every game, mmo or not, is a grind. Somewhere in the past I have gotten burnt out on shooters because it's constantly the same thing - RATATATATATA dead enemy, RATATATATA dead enemy, etc. Same for hack & slash games - they really need to employ an interesting combo system so I can make variations or it's just the same over and over and over. I can't think of any game that is totally devoid of repetitive tasks. The question is whether you find the (main) task annoying because that's the point where you have to force yourself to keep doing it and you should probably stop for the sake of your own mental health.

[ToySoldier]

My favorite dynamic events: Harathi Hinterlands, Kessex swamp boss, Queensdale bandit invasion, remind me of all the fun I used to have in Everquest raids without the pain of being in a guild full of politics, loot drama, keeping a 54-roster while having to leave some players out of a raid phase, waiting for enough players to show up, keeping track of DKP, etc. that made raids a job.

I love how those dynamic events are scaled to number of players, and how flexible players can choose their own roles in an impromptu raid-like event.  DPS, heal, cure, tank, rez.. all those roles were taken at will.  The player coordination needed generated a team spirit among random players.  In the end I saw people cheering, thanking each other for a great job.  It made me smile every time.

Hoping for more of those dynamic events to happen on demand.  These days though players are thin in all these zones. Maybe GW2 can make a new zone full of those events so all "raiders" can hang out there and do the DEs there, moving from one to another of their choice.  I'd probably hang in that zone everyday.

Edited by ToySoldier, 12 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Sheepski]

Illein, on 12 December 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'd rather they go with the outdoor boss models they have right now - which feel a bit raidy - but are far too easy to require any sort of coordinated gameplay. So if they tune those a bit up and make the chest-drops from them less ridiculous (as is an issue across the entire game, sadly) they might have some fun mode for groups of people who enjoy that sort of stuff.

Though I guess the only real way to make it any harder is to put a requirement of support characters into it and then you might as well screw the whole holy-trinity-is-gone concept and go all the way with it - which would suck, so I guess it's better we don't have raids.

Well I think they could do this, by just making the mechanics tougher. I mean right now, people just dps the dragons down and don't really pay any attention to the mechanics. For example I just stood next to Tequatl attacking constantly, ignoring the red circles, adds etc. The cannon wasn't necessary either. They could tune these up to make co-ordination more important. This could be done across the three dragons and even other various champion bosses, giving a level appropriate reward.

Obviously adding new encounters into the world too, however it'd be easier in new zones rather than current ones due to the space required for the fights.

[Lythuun]

Get more people to actually do Meta Events in the world. There's your raiding.
Oh, you wanted exclusive rewards? Nope, regular dungeons already have those. Looks like raiders don't want raiding for fun at all anyways, all it is is an ego stroking contest that this game really doesn't need.

[Illein]

Sheepski, on 12 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Well I think they could do this, by just making the mechanics tougher. I mean right now, people just dps the dragons down and don't really pay any attention to the mechanics. For example I just stood next to Tequatl attacking constantly, ignoring the red circles, adds etc. The cannon wasn't necessary either. They could tune these up to make co-ordination more important. This could be done across the three dragons and even other various champion bosses, giving a level appropriate reward.

Obviously adding new encounters into the world too, however it'd be easier in new zones rather than current ones due to the space required for the fights.

The issue I see is that they more or less are forced to balance all sorts of boss mechanics around the fact that everyone only has a limited amount of heal, two dodges (unless you force people into builds) and so and so many HP.

I don't know, those people get paid to make something out of it though, so they might be a lot more creatively motivated than I in that regard ;D But IF it could be made harder all around - I'd definitely dig it. The first time we did Temple of Lyssa with a handful of people right at hitting 80 - it was the sort of open-world PvE I totally enjoy. If the rewards weren't so damn bad - people would still do it a lot more. For all I care, they could make it accessible only once a week and the rest of the time, it's build-up, I don't know.

But it could certainly be a lot better than it is now and it would improve the game a lot - if there were some more challenging content of a larger scale

Edited by Illein, 12 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Guardian of the Light]

Rickter, on 12 December 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

guys, lets stop calling them "raids" per se and lets look at the deeper meaning here:

the OP doesnt want raids in the traditional sense, he wants large scale instanced pve content that a guild can coordinate and attempt.

and dont say we have large scale instanced pve content, its called, "Dynamic Events" - NO - this is not instanced and because of the random nature of DEs, a guild cannot coordinate and plan around one, let alone the fact that at most, they last around 15 minutes.

and yes this was an issue pre launch, i remember back in july people were asking what content there was for a large guild to do cooperatively and the ONLY answer PRE LAUNCH, was: WvW.

idk why there is even a disagreement with this notion, but this is a problem.  i dont want to pvp, and a lot of people are with me on this, so what is there to do in this game for say, a 100 member guild?

there is nothing that they can coordinate and plan around to run as a guild together.  this is a problem.

\

You know what now that I think about there's a solution to this in the game already that was never expanded upon.

The Temples of Orr and the gates of Arah.Think about it.

There are 6 meta-events that:
-You can trigger at any time if you have the people
-Have icons on the map to show if they are done or not so guilds could in theory plan around that.
-Require a good sized group of people
-Require more strategy then "faceroll to win"
-Have some rewards in the form of a karma vendor (one of which is the only way of using karma to get obsidian shards).


So why isn't it the end all solution to this compelling large group problem we seem to have?

Well:
-Most of them are pretty easy (only grenth and Balthazar give PuGs trouble although Lyssa requires people not to just zerg the center)
-There are only 6 of them and they can be completed in around 15 min
-Unless you have karma they don't give anything interesting.
-After you have full exotic armor they don't really give you ANYTHING good unless you need karma for legendaries

That being said, I really think that rather then adding raids, I think Anet should expand upon the formula the temples already provide and simply require more coordination, time and skill to complete.

Now, let's say there was a meta-event that was about the length of the epic Ancient Karka event that happened, which required players to be at multiple parts of the map at once and players to coordinate in order to complete it. However in order to open up this meta-event chain you needed to meet certain conditions like the pact must hold all 5 temples of orr in order to unlock a mega-event and have it begin.

This wouldn't necessarily block randoms from completing it but may require a large community of players to get the ball rolling so they can start the event and get the reward at the end.

I don't know, that's me thinking out loud. I'd prefer in general if Anet expanded upon the DE system and 5 man dungeons rather than just adding in Raids.

Edited by Guardian of the Light, 12 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.