133 replies to this topic

[Illein]

Yeah that's basically what people were saying already - but you summed it up neatly. I'd definitely like them to go that route too, should they decide that's what a lot of players want and something they'd like to cater to.

[Menehune]

<big huge sigh>

This topic again. And I don't mean literally raids, but so called "large scale content that guilds can do". This has been chewed so much it probably resembles dolyak cud. Search for threads by Lethality who was the biggest proponent of such before launch and seems to have given up after launch or maybe he's secretly busy playing the game. Everything said here and more have been hashed, hashed and rehashed in those threads.

[Perm Shadow Form]

Raids?
Playing coordinated and strategic means its not faceroll-able and thus not casual friendly.
No raids! More 20+ players zerging a standing boss!

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 12 December 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Darkobra]

Menehune, on 12 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

<big huge sigh>

This topic again. And I don't mean literally raids, but so called "large scale content that guilds can do". This has been chewed so much it probably resembles dolyak cud. Search for threads by Lethality who was the biggest proponent of such before launch and seems to have given up after launch or maybe he's secretly busy playing the game. Everything said here and more have been hashed, hashed and rehashed in those threads.

He actually got banned or he'd still be at it.

[Kymeric]

Protoss, on 12 December 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Does the game have tons of content?
Of course it does.
Does that content appeal to everyone?
Given how my guildies or folks on my FList would rather not play GW2, of course it doesn't.

No game is going to have content that appeals to everyone.

The question is how broad a base a game can appeal to before it appeals to no one.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Kymeric, on 12 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

No game is going to have content that appeals to everyone.

The question is how broad a base a game can appeal to before it appeals to no one.

Cmon be positive, we have cloned the geargrind, we will clone raids too

[Auenwing]

Dear ArenaNet,

Please stick by your original design decision to limit the size of a dungeon group to a small number: e.g. current number of 5. Your early design discussion regarding reducing  group size to 5 was an important factor in marketing the game.

Those of us who chose this game because of that specific design element would be displaced if the inherent game design changed to accomodate those who can find larger PvE raids in multiple other MMOs (WoW, EQ2, Rift, etc).

Menehune, on 12 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

<big huge sigh>

This topic again. And I don't mean literally raids, but so called "large scale content that guilds can do". This has been chewed so much it probably resembles dolyak cud. Search for threads by Lethality who was the biggest proponent of such before launch and seems to have given up after launch or maybe he's secretly busy playing the game. Everything said here and more have been hashed, hashed and rehashed in those threads.

Dear Moderator:

why isn't this thread locked due to redundancy?

.

Edited by Auenwing, 12 December 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[Krisa]

I would love to see maybe not raids per say but , bigger groups for WvW , i mean would love to beable to get 20 ppl in a group to help better organize in wvw , can all be done via chat or via VoIP but easier to see ppl on the map , even if not 20 , 10 would be cool as well.

[Dasryn]

Auenwing, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Dear Moderator:

why isn't this thread locked due to redundancy?

its the same deal as the trinity, and we know ANet will go back on their word (ascended gear) so this feature is stil on the table.  until ANet truly sticks to their guns, features like trinity and "raids" (still dont like that word) are still on the table.

[karekiz]

Enscheff, on 11 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

What else should I expect though from the game where 5 people just kites mobs around while they solo in the same general area and call it "grouping"?

Why are you kiting?

Roll warrior -> Equip zerker gear -> L2Dodge -> Use Greatsword w/shield is 2nd wep slot -> DPSDPSDPS in melee -> instance win.  If you want to be snazzy get a mesmer to Haste bubble you.

As for raids.....I am just unsure that they would work in the context of the game at this point.  Their isn't enough strategy beyond DPS and dodging red circles to warrant 25 people.  Combo fields are the closest thing, but really....when have you REALLY had to use combo-fields beyond haste bubbles / Ranger heal springs?  Even then they aren't required and are just something nice to have.

Raids require group synergy to be fun.  From tank/healer -> kiters -> CC -> off tanks and the like GW2.....doesn't have that.  And thats is perfectly fine.....for 5 man instances.

[Samarin]

They have scaling dynamic events in open world so why wouldn´t there be scaling instanced content for those who want to have more (or less) than 5 players around. In my guild there are often a couple of more than five willing players for dungeons so that some people must find something else to do. I´m not asking 15+ instas here but I could enjoy a well-scaling dungeon for, let´s say 4-10 players.

Would it be out of question if the scaling could be something else than linear? The content would be relatively easier with 4 players than with 10 requiring true coordination from large groups (most probably guilds). It could serve both casual players and those who want larger and more organised parties. Having a larger group would give then some extra (cosmetic?) rewards, maybe those guild gears mentioned earlier.

Just a thought that popped in my mind.

[Talcyon]

I dont understand why people insist on saying large scale group content is no different than small scale.
1) You can bring more utilities
2) Absolutly requires coordination, maybe not in wow but if you go play Age of Conan you will quickly learn than even t1 requires basic teamwork, and you cant pass t2 without voicechat

I want raids but not because of large scale, I want difficult content, everything is too easy atm

[Mastruq]

Afaik there are raids in the game, something in orr and a few dragons. I would not mind more of that, although I would want them to be on a 15-27 hour timer and have better drops. Just feels lame to kill a huge dragon and his hoard is three greens. More of that would be nice.

Now what I dont want is more instanced content. I can play other games for that.

[Feathermoore]

Auenwing, on 12 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Dear Moderator:

why isn't this thread locked due to redundancy?

.

Because those threads were before release. Now that people have played the game for a while, points and ideas can change. If people can be civil then we can revisit these topics now that we have real play experience.

PM us next time. I only reply here because I know others will ask.

Edited by Feathermoore, 13 December 2012 - 03:03 PM.
ugh grammar fail

[Alleji]

Not against raids per se, but I don't see the point in GW2...

GW's system with no tanks or healers already feels chaotic in 5-man dungeons, how would it be any different if you had 15 or 25 people running around, dpsing the boss, dodging the same aoes, etc? Yeah, more people would get by hit by the same fireball from the boss. But it doesn't add anything fundamental to the game other than the hassle of getting that many people together.

If you're looking for increased difficulty, simply more difficult dungeons would make more sense... and they actually started doing this with fractals.

Edited by Alleji, 13 December 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[Dasryn]

Alleji, on 13 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Not against raids per se, but I don't see the point in GW2...

GW's system with no tanks or healers already feels chaotic in 5-man dungeons, how would it be any different if you had 15 or 25 people running around, dpsing the boss, dodging the same aoes, etc? Yeah, more people would get by hit by the same fireball from the boss. But it doesn't add anything fundamental to the game other than the hassle of getting that many people together.

If you're looking for increased difficulty, simply more difficult dungeons would make more sense... and they actually started doing this with fractals.

i just want pve instanced content that larger guilds can run together.  WvW is not a viable option, some people hate pvp.

[elmprotector]

Rickter, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

i just want pve instanced content that larger guilds can run together.  WvW is not a viable option, some people hate pvp.

Again Arenanet Devs did multiple interviews before release where they said very straight to the point that there were going to be no instanced raids.... listen closely they said it and in one that was a audio interview you could here the level of anger in the devs voice when he had to say it over and over because the person interviewing him wouldnt let it die.  Like he thought like alot of people on this board... if you keep asking over and over like a child to a parent they will all of a sudden change there mind.  

No they said it a ton of times before release so why act like a spoiled child and keep asking for something they said no to multiple times.

[Corvindi]

Rickter, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

i just want pve instanced content that larger guilds can run together.  WvW is not a viable option, some people hate pvp.

But you'll also want that content to drop the best gear in the game, gear that is available in no other way, won't you?

If I'm wrong, then I don't mind if you get your raids.  I really would be happy for you.  But those of us who don't do dungeons are already disgusted about the Ascended gear and are waiting for it to be available through other means, so maybe you can see why we would be very wary of raids?

[Trei]

Rickter, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

i just want pve instanced content that larger guilds can run together.  WvW is not a viable option, some people hate pvp.

Would you be okay if the very same rewards from such content could be acquired elsewhere, albeit perhaps with a lesser frequency?

Do you speak for all the others who want this type of content?

[Dasryn]

guys, why are you getting caught up on what type of gear drops out of the instanced pve content im talking about?

fact: there is no large scale instanced pve content available currently in GW2.

im saying, that for guilds that like this sort of stuff that do not like pvp, please allow them to have the option.  right now, guilds dont have that much to do as far as cooperative content.  

dont you guys think thats a problem?  or is that fine?  because if its fine, then what's happening now is no guild loyalty.  you just guild hop or "choose which one you want to represent" and it takes the personality away and quite frankly, the point of a guild is stripped away.

maybe im too old school and i miss the days taht your guild was a second family.  your guild was a group of people you probably ended up speaking with more than your real life family.  i miss that in mmos.  "raids" if thats what you wanted to call them, drew a guild together, it invested you.

so far ive seen arguments against raids because, "itwould be a nightmare in pug situations" or you guys are getting so worried about the level of gear that drops because idk, i guess you are one of those people that could never get in a raid group so you would feel excluded.

first of all, pugs are a cooperative form of solo content.  you group with random people that you have no interest in getting to know (if you make some friends great but thats not your original intent) so that you can run content that is group mandatory. you group together, run it, then leave and never have to talk to them again.  thats not what mmos are supposed to be like.

i want guilds to be personable again.  and i want content that caters to a large healthy guild.  

i think what is holding this back in GW2 is greed.  pure selfish greed.  worried about what drops from this content, worried about having to pug it and the chaos of orgainzing a pug.

all irrelevant.

its not about that to me, its about, giving thse guilds something to build relationships with.

[Menehune]

Rickter, on 14 December 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

guys, why are you getting caught up on what type of gear drops out of the instanced pve content im talking about?

fact: there is no large scale instanced pve content available currently in GW2.

im saying, that for guilds that like this sort of stuff that do not like pvp, please allow them to have the option.  right now, guilds dont have that much to do as far as cooperative content.  

dont you guys think thats a problem?  or is that fine?  because if its fine, then what's happening now is no guild loyalty.  you just guild hop or "choose which one you want to represent" and it takes the personality away and quite frankly, the point of a guild is stripped away.

maybe im too old school and i miss the days taht your guild was a second family.  your guild was a group of people you probably ended up speaking with more than your real life family.  i miss that in mmos.  "raids" if thats what you wanted to call them, drew a guild together, it invested you.

so far ive seen arguments against raids because, "itwould be a nightmare in pug situations" or you guys are getting so worried about the level of gear that drops because idk, i guess you are one of those people that could never get in a raid group so you would feel excluded.

first of all, pugs are a cooperative form of solo content.  you group with random people that you have no interest in getting to know (if you make some friends great but thats not your original intent) so that you can run content that is group mandatory. you group together, run it, then leave and never have to talk to them again.  thats not what mmos are supposed to be like.

i want guilds to be personable again.  and i want content that caters to a large healthy guild.  

i think what is holding this back in GW2 is greed.  pure selfish greed.  worried about what drops from this content, worried about having to pug it and the chaos of orgainzing a pug.

all irrelevant.

its not about that to me, its about, giving thse guilds something to build relationships with.

Because, in many, perhaps most, other games with raids/instanced content for big guilds, the best gear can only be obtained in such areas. Surely the outcry over ascended gear being currently only obtainable in Fractals didn't just fly by you.  Also, say what you will, but such content is exclusive and more preparing to have fun (LFM, scheduling your life around the raids etc.), contrary to ArenaNets stated philosophy concerning accessability and jumping in and having fun from the get go.

Why do guilds do that sort of stuff? Sure, some may do it for the fun or challenge, but by far, I'm certain, most do it because they have to in order to get the best gear that is required for the next tier of raids/instanced content for big guilds that will be coming in the next expansion. Why do people join such guilds? Undoubtedly camaraderie and friendship play roles, but that burning desire to get that über chest piece of invincibility + 1 certainly plays a big role as well.

Guilds can still be a "second family". There are still a great many close and tight knit guilds out there. Most are probably RL family and friends, but there are still a lot made up of people that just met online. Perhaps you may have to look a little longer now, but seek and ye shall find.

One thing I definitely agree with though is that impatience, greed and selfishness are becoming the primary motivators for most gamers. Drop not "good enough"? Not worth the time. Ding max level in two days? Nothing to do. Gear score not high enough? Kick. etc. etc. etc.

[Dasryn]

Menehune, on 14 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

........

the best gear in the game doesnt have to drop out of this type of content.  just different exotic skins.  

but you know what?  ascended gear is coming, and its not going away. this type of discussion is still on the table because we've seen ANet go back on their word.  its happening right now.  so i say since its already out of the window,

i mean the entire ANet philosophy is out of the window, so go ahead and give us raids that drop ascended gear.  its better than grinding fractal levels when we all know fractal level 54 is exactly like fractal level 1 (there is proof of this in a vid floating around here somewhere the grawl shaman thing).

Edited by Rickter, 14 December 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Menehune]

Rickter, on 14 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

...
this type of discussion is still on the table because we've seen ANet go back on their word.
...
i mean the entire ANet philosophy is out of the window,
...

I'm not getting into this again. I've stated my opinion and nothing has happened to change it. Aside from that, my only other reaction is

For sure, the best gear in the game doesnt have to drop out of this type of content, but as far as I can tell, damn near every other game that offers raids or similar does it that way and that's why the concern. I don't share that concern because I don't believe ArenaNet will implement raids anyway.

[Fizzypop]

Go for it. What's the worse that can happen? We already have the treadmill.

[Dasryn]

Fizzypop, on 14 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Go for it. What's the worse that can happen? We already have the treadmill.

there ya go.  lets just do it!  seriously.  if you dont want large guild, get your ascended gear through the puggable FotM.  but if you are in a big guild, give us Raids that drop ascended gear so they have soemthing to do together.

see? what's the big deal, make raids drop ascended gear.  oh you have concerns of not being able to meet the raid schedule blah blah blah?  ok, then run FotM.

same gear, different ways to obtain, what's the big deal?  but raids will give larger guilds the OPTION - the option to run large scale instanced pve content.

[Omega X]

GW2 doesn't need raids. It was maddening enough getting 8 competent people for GW1 missions. Just keep it at 5 and make more varying dungeons and more incentives to complete.

Edited by Omega X, 14 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[asbasb]

I'm pretty positive that there will be 10+ man raids in the future. They could easily redelegate their dungeon developing resources from creating 3 5 man paths into one 5 man and one 10 man path, for instance. Or just one super awesome path, that a 5 man team(pugs) could run up to a point, and a 10+ man raid would be able to finish. The AR level of the dungeon could be calculated by the average of all the raid members, not the one with the lowest score. That prevents raid guilds from being punished too much for taking in someone that has fallen a bit behind.

Oh there are so many ways to make it work in GW2, and there are quite a few people requesting it. Here, on the OF, and in game.

[Verelia]

Meh, if you have 95% of the games population glued to one map, spamming the same dungeon again and again for minimal rewards and discriminating against people with worse gear/ progress/ free time you pretty much have raiding already.

[Talcyon]

I just want difficult content that cannot be pugged easily

Group size requirement doesnt matter to me, difficulty does, and giving things LOTS of HP and ability to 1shot me is not difficulty.


Look at pre-nerf age of conan khitai dungeons for what I want to see, before they got nerfed they were actually difficult and fun, now you can just faceroll your keyboard (like more GW2 dungeons now), each and every boss encounter had a specific mechanic (that is what made it hard, not the boss himself)

[Dasryn]

Talcyon, on 14 December 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

I just want difficult content that cannot be pugged easily

Group size requirement doesnt matter to me, difficulty does, and giving things LOTS of HP and ability to 1shot me is not difficulty.


Look at pre-nerf age of conan khitai dungeons for what I want to see, before they got nerfed they were actually difficult and fun, now you can just faceroll your keyboard (like more GW2 dungeons now), each and every boss encounter had a specific mechanic (that is what made it hard, not the boss himself)

i dont agree that you can faceroll dungeons.  because bosses can one shot, youve gotta be on your feet through most of these encounters.  i think its very contradictory for you to say that dungeon content is poorly designed because bosses can one shot you, but then turn around and say its facerollable.

the very fact that you can get one shotted tells you that you can just clatter on your keyboard and expect success.