Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* * - - - 12 votes

Forcing players to PvP for World Completion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
370 replies to this topic

#1 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

Currently, to get world completion you need to also explore all 4 of the WvWvW maps.  I hate to start a negative thread but I don't think it is fair to force someone to PvP just to get this PvE title.  I refuse to be forced to participate in a game activity that I don't enjoy.  Anyone knows of any good tip on how to avoid getting ganked while climbing up a vista?

The repair cost to get to all these points is also horrendous if you don't wish to attack back, so the only way I know is to quit the game client fast when you are under attack.  There is no way to declare yourself neutral to stop other people from attacking you.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 06:33 PM.


#2 Lucas Ashrock

Lucas Ashrock

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Banned
  • 1000 posts
  • Location:Asia, always around

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Wait until your server domain the map ( i doubt those days but meh). Reason because so many moved on top servers now full, and still sometimes try to move, your exact reason: have more fun doing wvw and well, do the map in peace pwning.

#3 FoxBat

FoxBat

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3929 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:35 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I hate to start a negative thread but I don't think it is fair to force someone to PvP just to get this PvE title.

See legendaries, monthly achievements, and skill splits. Apparently Anet doesn't consider WvW to be PvP. World completion is not special.

Edited by FoxBat, 12 December 2012 - 06:36 PM.


#4 metalsazz

metalsazz

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

I'm roughly 80% done all WvW maps, which mirrors my 80% world completion rate., and that was mainly following zergs and guildies as we took over places in WvW. I'm in no rush in getting the title, yet i have a pretty good % i feel.

#5 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:48 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 12 December 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

See legendaries, monthly achievements, and skill splits. Apparently Anet doesn't consider WvW to be PvP. World completion is not special.

If it is not PvP, then it is PK = Player Killing?

This is why my world completion would be stuck at 90+% since I refuse to PvP.  I hate the fact that I am being forced to PvP just to earn a PvE title.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#6 Khrushchev

Khrushchev

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 255 posts
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[GT]
  • Server:Henge of Denravi

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

If it is not PvP, then it is PK = Player Killing?

This is why my world completion would be stuck at 90+% since I refuse to PvP.  I hate the fact that I am being forced to PvP just to earn a PvE title.

You don't even have to do any PvP to get this, you have to walk into a keep, spin around for twelve seconds, pat your head twice, and then go walk to the point of interest and climb to the vista.

Throw on some speed boosts and condition removing utilities and if you see a large mob of enemy players, turn around and go the other way.

I doubt a player as negative as you would even help all that much in raiding towers or keeps anyways, just follow behind zergs that capture things.

Also, the fact that you have 90%+ world completion clearly shows that you're at least not terrible at the game, you shouldn't find it that hard to survive, you likely have exotic gear at this point, and half the people in WvW at any given moment are underleveled white charr elementalists with staves.

Edited by Khrushchev, 12 December 2012 - 06:56 PM.


#7 FoxBat

FoxBat

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3929 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

If it is not PvP, then it is PK = Player Killing?

I don't know what it is, but you can hardly expect Anet to keep WvW out of your titles/legendaries/achievements when they don't see it as PvP.

I think the company wants to really believe that people say "I hate PvP but love WvW!"

Edited by FoxBat, 12 December 2012 - 06:57 PM.


#8 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostKhrushchev, on 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

You don't even have to do any PvP to get this, you have to walk into a keep, spin around for twelve seconds, pat your head twice, and then go walk to the point of interest and climb to the vista.

Throw on some speed boosts and condition removing utilities and if you see a large mob of enemy players, turn around and go the other way.

If I turn the other way then I wont be able to complete it, would I?  Also sometimes I get ganked just by being out in the open and they seem to have fast running and immobilize skills, I don't, since I am geared for PvE.  I refuse to re-gear myself for PvP and be forced into ArenaNet's scheme to make us PvP whether we want to or not.

Besides, my server is not doing well in WvW and I probably contributed to their demise by refusing to fight back.

I may have to transfer from server to server to contribute to all the other server's demise as well so that I can get to the other points.  That is what they get by forcing PvE players to PvP.

View PostFoxBat, on 12 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I think the company wants to really believe that people say "I hate PvP but love WvW!"

Not everyone would love PvP in one form or another.  I hate it when PvP is forced into a PvE player or vice versa.

Forced PvP is what you would call a PK = Player Killer in Diablo 2 days, where someone turns hostile to you, runs out of town, and tries to kill you whether you are ready or not.

Edited by Khalija, 20 December 2012 - 05:51 AM.


#9 Zhaitan

Zhaitan

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 351 posts
  • Location:3rd rock from the sun
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

There are only two skills needed to complete the WvW Maps.

1. ZLAP - Zerg Like A Pro
2. RLSG - Run Like a Screaming Girl

I don't think I need to provide the detail decription of these skills as the names are self explanatory. :)

#10 Jae Sun

Jae Sun

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 8 posts
  • Guild Tag:[HB]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:12 PM

Wvw players are currently forced into Fractals to attain highest gear, just sayin.

And yeah go re-trait for condi removal and swiftness/movement weapons and take all your clothes off for near 0 repair cost.

Oh and what about wvw players being forced into pve content to get their legendary.  Seems to me you have the better deal, since cruising through wvw maps takes at most 3 hours over a couple trips.  

Also the maps can change week to week as to which is your starting map.  If your team changes colors you will likely have a map you can get into that wasn't really very available to you.

Finally, legendary's aren't supposed to be easy.  Either work for it or don't, quit whining.

#11 Traveller

Traveller

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 124 posts
  • Location:Finland
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

While I agree with you on the premise that WvW should not count for world completion, capping those maps isn't THAT hard. I did it recently - although I changed server twice. Mostly I ran on empty maps during off hours. I did participate in fights too, although I don't particularly enjoy WvW (and often get killed) to help whatever server I was on to cap those keeps and towers I was missing. My advice is to check which server is doing well and move there to cap locations, that is, at least while there's free transfers.An

A few times I was left alone when I said I'm just mapping locations, other times I was killed. I guess it depends on what type of person you meet on the battlefield. It's a bit like in GW1 when people would participate on Jade Quarry of Ft. Aspenwood just to finish mapping those areas, although there they were hurting the team more since player numbers in a match were more limited.

Edited by Traveller, 12 December 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#12 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostJae Sun, on 12 December 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Wvw players are currently forced into Fractals to attain highest gear, just sayin.

I never liked Fractals either, so I am with you there.

Legendary is only a cosmetic improvement over ascended gear, so I don't understand when you said PvP players are forced into a cosmetic upgrade.

Yes, waiting for a week for map rotation is the other alternative.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 07:16 PM.


#13 FreeBooteR

FreeBooteR

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 137 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

I agree with the OP on this. Map completion should be split out between pve and pvp completion. It doesn't make sense to have people in wvw who don't want to be there. Though the weak pvpers do appreciate the easy ganks i suppose, since they can't cut the mustard otherwise.

#14 Doki20

Doki20

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2091 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

If I turn the other way then I wont be able to complete it, would I?  Also sometimes I get ganked just by being out in the open and they seem to have fast running and immobilize skills, I don't, since I am geared for PvE.  I refuse to re-gear myself for PvP and be forced into ArenaNet's scheme to make us PvP whether we want to or not....

Yeah.. because changing your utilities for zero cost to have a speed buff and either condition removal/stability skill is so expensive.. oh wait it isn't.

This excuse is kinda on the same level as "boss gimps me when melee, and I refuse to take a ranged option even though every profession has at least one and cost me barely anything". As a necromancer myself, I usually take 2 aoe utilities (one for condition stripping) and in WvW I change one of them for a speed buff and it doesnt cost me even one copper, yet I have better chances.

Also.. do as someone said: choose the map of your own server, I'm quite sure it's 90% at least controlled by your side.. cap it then wait until they rotate and your chosen server map is not the one you already capped -> cap it that too, and wait again.

Edited by Doki20, 12 December 2012 - 07:18 PM.


#15 matsif

matsif

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1516 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

seeing as world completion really isn't a requirement unless you want a legendary, I don't see a huge problem as to get the legendary you have to get 500 tokens in WvW anyways.

I will agree though that I'm tired of having to go into WvW for 50 kills every month.  WvW as a game mode is stale and boring with none of the actual strategy and PvP play style that I enjoy participating in.

On the other side for players who really love WvW, they have to do a lot more in PvE content to acquire items for WvW than PvE players have to do WvW to get the same items (legendaries, ascended gear, etc.)

Edited by matsif, 12 December 2012 - 07:19 PM.


#16 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostTraveller, on 12 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

While I agree with you on the premise that WvW should not count for world completion, capping those maps isn't THAT hard. I did it recently - although I changed server twice. Mostly I ran on empty maps during off hours. I did participate in fights too, although I don't particularly enjoy WvW (and often get killed) to help whatever server I was on to cap those keeps and towers I was missing. My advice is to check which server is doing well and move there to cap locations, that is, at least while there's free transfers.An

A few times I was left alone when I said I'm just mapping locations, other times I was killed. I guess it depends on what type of person you meet on the battlefield. It's a bit like in GW1 when people would participate on Jade Quarry of Ft. Aspenwood just to finish mapping those areas, although there they were hurting the team more since player numbers in a match were more limited.

After Nov 1, changing server now requires 1 week wait before you can change again.  That would mean I can't play with my wife anymore since guesting is not implemented.

It is still an alternative I am considering though.

#17 FoxBat

FoxBat

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3929 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Legendary is only a cosmetic improvement over ascended gear, so I don't understand when you said PvP players are forced into a cosmetic upgrade.

So what exactly is the world completion star?

#18 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostDoki20, on 12 December 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yeah.. because changing your utilities for zero cost to have a speed buff and either condition removal/stability skill is so expensive.. oh wait it isn't.

This excuse is kinda on the same level as "boss gimps me when melee, and I refuse to take a ranged option even though every profession has at least one and cost me barely anything". As a necromancer myself, I usually take 2 aoe utilities (one for condition stripping) and in WvW I change one of them for a speed buff and it doesnt cost me even one copper, yet I have better chances.

Also.. do as someone said: choose the map of your own server, I'm quite sure it's 90% at least controlled by your side.. cap it then wait until they rotate and your chosen server map is not the one you already capped -> cap it that too, and wait again.

If I re-gear myself for WvW and start fighting then, wait...... I will be PvPing and ArenaNet scheme to force PvP on us would have succeeded...  Not going to happen.  :)

As a matter of principle, why should I be forced to play the game in the way that I dislike?  Why should PvEers be FORCED into PvP?

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#19 matsif

matsif

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1516 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:24 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

If I re-gear myself for WvW and start fighting then, wait...... I will be PvPing and ArenaNet scheme to force PvP on us would have succeeded...  Not going to happen.  :)

As a matter of principle, why should I be forced to play the game in the way that I dislike?  Why should PvEers be FORCED into PvP?

not sure where you are re-gearing yourself by taking some new utility skills.  There is no cost to change them.

#20 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

View Postmatsif, on 12 December 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

seeing as world completion really isn't a requirement unless you want a legendary, I don't see a huge problem as to get the legendary you have to get 500 tokens in WvW anyways.

No...I don't want a legendary, I am just a completionist and I love exploring which was why I went for that title.

View Postmatsif, on 12 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

not sure where you are re-gearing yourself by taking some new utility skills.  There is no cost to change them.

I appreciate the advice but that is a slippery slope towards PvP.  After some PvP-useful utility skills, maybe I would bring immobilize, can be useful.  Or maybe add more useful PvP skills here and there and pretty soon I will be PvPing.   Not going to happen.

ArenaNet should have allowed PvEers to move through the maps without getting attacked if they wish to continue to make us go through the WvW maps.  I wish they would implement something like that or don't include WvW maps in world completion.  Sorry this sounds like a rant but we should let them know what we think about their game.

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 07:32 PM.


#21 AKGeo

AKGeo

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 817 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

Holy whinebots in here.

WvW is hardly PvP. By definition, yes. But by implementation...not so much. You're fighting players, but it's not structured, it's not organized, it's just running around and killing something that has the ability to run from you. And if it runs from you, then it's not a threat. If you're alone and you get ganked, that's no different than getting ganked solo in cursed shore. Learn to recognize the main routes of the zergs and stay away from them. Scout and leave yourself an escape path if one is approaching your position. I got to 98% completion before having to map WvW, and got to 99% on hostile maps just running the long way around the map and stealth-mapping camps, vistas and skill points. When my server actually started winning WvW is when I finished off my completion with keeps and towers.

As for those who said "anet wants to believe people say 'i hate PvP but love WvW'....that's me. I hate structured PvP. WvW is a blast.

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

No...I don't want a legendary, I am just a completionist and I love exploring which was why I went for that title.



Yeah but that is a slippery slope towards PvP.  After some PvP-useful utility skills, maybe I would bring immobilize, can be useful.  Or maybe add more useful PvP skills here and there and pretty soon I will be PvPing.   Not going to happen.

Then don't go for world completion. Nobody's holding a gun to your head saying "YOU NEED THAT BEEN THERE, DONE THAT TITLE OR ELSE!". And there's no "slippery slope". You recognize that you need XYZ to survive long enough in WvW to finish the maps, you use XYZ, and you're done. You never need to step foot in WvW again, unless you're going for a legendary. Oh wait, you still don't have to kill a single player to get badges...hop over to a continually-dominating WvW server when there's a spot, and just do the jumping puzzles daily. That's 30-40 badges per day.

Edited by AKGeo, 12 December 2012 - 07:31 PM.


#22 matsif

matsif

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1516 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yeah but that is a slippery slope towards PvP.  After some PvP-useful utility skills, maybe I would bring immobilize, can be useful.  Or maybe add more useful PvP skills here and there and pretty soon I will be PvPing.   Not going to happen.

so you're too lazy to change up your skill bar to make getting a title easier.  glad we cleared that up.  Really I agree on parts of your point but your responses in this thread are ridiculous.  There is no slippery slope, there is no required attacking of another player, there is nothing stopping you from making these changes other than you.

There is nothing in WvW that forces you to engage someone attacking you.  Clearly you are in the mindset that by selecting skills on your bar to help your cause is forcing you to engage in combat that you don't want, instead of thinking that these skills are there to help you play the way you want.  If you want a speed boost, a condition remover, and an immobilize to help you run around, then don't use the rest of your bar, just those 3 skills.  You don't have to attack anyone or anything.

You are whining at this point about being too lazy to switch 3-5 skills.  Skills that are free to change, and that you can change at any time you are not being attacked.

#23 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 12 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Holy whinebots in here.

WvW is hardly PvP. By definition, yes. But by implementation...not so much. You're fighting players, but it's not structured, it's not organized, it's just running around and killing something that has the ability to run from you. And if it runs from you, then it's not a threat. If you're alone and you get ganked, that's no different than getting ganked solo in cursed shore. Learn to recognize the main routes of the zergs and stay away from them. Scout and leave yourself an escape path if one is approaching your position. I got to 98% completion before having to map WvW, and got to 99% on hostile maps just running the long way around the map and stealth-mapping camps, vistas and skill points. When my server actually started winning WvW is when I finished off my completion with keeps and towers.

As for those who said "anet wants to believe people say 'i hate PvP but love WvW'....that's me. I hate structured PvP. WvW is a blast.

Just because it is not sPvP doesn't mean it is not PvP.  Remember what does PvP stand for?  Player-vs-Player, which is what WvW really is.  Call it uPvP then, I don't care.  I refuse to fight players.

Quote

Then don't go for world completion. Nobody's holding a gun to your head saying "YOU NEED THAT BEEN THERE, DONE THAT TITLE OR ELSE!". And there's no "slippery slope". You recognize that you need XYZ to survive long enough in WvW to finish the maps, you use XYZ, and you're done. You never need to step foot in WvW again, unless you're going for a legendary. Oh wait, you still don't have to kill a single player to get badges...hop over to a continually-dominating WvW server when there's a spot, and just do the jumping puzzles daily. That's 30-40 badges per day.

World completion is a PvE title, I love exploring so why not go for the title?

View Postmatsif, on 12 December 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

so you're too lazy to change up your skill bar to make getting a title easier.  

Not lazy.  Refuse.  Learn to know the difference.  My PvE skill bar and traits have been serving me well in the PvE world, so why should I learn to PvP when it is ArenaNet's responsibility to not FORCE PvE players into PvP instead?

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#24 Impmon

Impmon

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 661 posts
  • Location:Behind you
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

Your game doesn't end if you don't have world completion.  Do something else.

#25 Leokadia

Leokadia

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 148 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I don't think it is fair to force someone to PvP just to get this PvE title.

It isn't a PvE title.  Much like a legendary weapon or a 100% monthly achievement bonus, it is clearly intended to represent effort in every facet of the game other than sPvP.

You are not being required to play every facet of the game.  You are simply required to go everywhere in the game world and complete all map points in the world, including the parts of the world where other players can hunt you (You need not actually seek out conflict and are free to run from it), if you want the title that says you've gone everywhere in the game world and completed every map point in the world.

#26 FreeBooteR

FreeBooteR

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 137 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

PvP is PvP whether structured or not. Why force something on people who hate that sort of thing? It just seems sociopathic.

#27 Daesu

Daesu

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1344 posts
  • Guild Tag:[NPO]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostLeokadia, on 12 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

It isn't a PvE title.  Much like a legendary weapon or a 100% monthly achievement bonus, it is clearly intended to represent effort in every facet of the game other than sPvP.

You are not being required to play every facet of the game.  You are simply required to go everywhere in the game world and complete all map points in the world, including the parts of the world where other players can hunt you (You need not actually seek out conflict and are free to run from it), if you want the title that says you've gone everywhere in the game world and completed every map point in the world.

If world completion is part PvP then that is where I would probably stop, at my 90+%.  They should have another PvE title for PvEers who love to explore then.  I refuse to take part in any activity that is against my principles.  

The point of this thread is to let ArenaNet know that forcing PvP down the throats of PvE players is just wrong!

Edited by Daesu, 12 December 2012 - 07:55 PM.


#28 Leokadia

Leokadia

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 148 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

And that is where I would probably stop, at my 90+%.

The point of this thread is to let ArenaNet know that forcing PvP down the throats of PvE players is just wrong!

How are you being forced to do anything?

#29 d_fens

d_fens

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 179 posts
  • Location:Rzeszow, Poland
  • Guild Tag:[WAR]
  • Server:Aurora Glade

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

Stop wasting your breath (keyboard?). This has been discussed many times and each times fanboys jump on you like a pack of angry jackals. I had to do this too for my world completion. It took me 3 weeks and 6 server transfers (they were not limited to 1 per week). I ran with no armor to avoid repair costs and my contribution to my server's victory was exactly zero. Good way to implement this ANET, really. This makes completely no sense, WvW takes part in the Mists, which is completely OUTSIDE of Tyria as a world.

Edited by d_fens, 12 December 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#30 matsif

matsif

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1516 posts
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Not lazy.  Refuse.  Learn to know the difference.

No, refusing to change your skill bar is laziness as it requires no effort to perform said task other than 6 button clicks.

Obviously you didn't read my post, as there is nothing requiring you to engage in combat in WvW.  If you refuse to enter the WvW zones, that's a different matter.  If you want the title that bad, then go enter it with 3 new skills and run around.  Nothing is preventing that other than yourself, and if you can't get over it, then you can't get the title, simple as that.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users