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Forcing players to PvP for World Completion


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#121 Amelia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:27 PM

Then you should want  a separate achievements for PVE completion and PVP completion , not excluding PVP from World completion .
I like the idea , though  gift of exploration should be delivered only after discovering the whole world of Guild Wars 2.
For the whole exclusive of calling yourself a real world explorer ( with a star next to your HP ) ,  nothing should be excluded. That's kinda logical.

#122 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:



Yes, there are indeed workarounds and many people have posted good workaround suggestions.  However,  I believe that only ArenaNet can do a proper fix for this issue.

It doesn't need to be fixed. Because there are sufficient workarounds that allow for the minority (you) to get what they want without doing what they don't want (fighting other players). What part of that don't you understand?

#123 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:53 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

It doesn't need to be fixed. Because there are sufficient workarounds that allow for the minority (you) to get what they want without doing what they don't want (fighting other players). What part of that don't you understand?

The workarounds are not perfect especially workarounds that require you to switch servers.  Switching servers for free would not be around forever.  They have already increased the time that you are allowed to switch servers from 24 hrs to 1 week since November 1st and we all know their goal is to charge lots of gems to deter people from switching servers ultimately.  The other workarounds carry their own risks and are not perfect.  This is why we need a proper fix from ArenaNet.

Good for you that you like both pve and pvp, but if you force PvEers to PvP then we would only mess things up.  Trying to pvp and running off to climb vistas don't mix well together anyway.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.


#124 Leokadia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Then they shouldn't require you to PVE.  I am a supporter of the separation between PVE and PVP.  That doesn't mean that you can't like both.  If we separate titles for each, then you can go for the one you like or both titles if you wish.  Alternatively, you can have a more demanding title, that allows you to earn points towards it through only playing PvE content or only playing PvP content.  You can also earn points towards it by playing both too if you like.

Having a title that demands you to play BOTH PVE+PVP, with no other options, is awfully restrictive and only appeals to players that like BOTH.

The vast majority of titles already only require one or the other.  All but this one and the monthly bonus if I remember correctly.  Almost every single one.  This is one of a tiny number of exceptions.  Why shouldn't there be a tiny number of exceptions that appeal to the large number players who like both PvE and PvPvE while 99% of the titles available work *exactly* like you specify.

Edited by Leokadia, 13 December 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#125 Lordkrall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

Why do people want to do World Completion if not going for Legendary Weapons?

#126 Runkleford

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

It really was easy enough to get map completion in WvW and there are definitely workarounds if you don't like PVP. I had planned to lead my non-PVP gf to do the map completion but she has since quit. Anyway, while it's easy enough to get map completion, I think it's still out of place to ask PVE players to participate in a PVP setting. I play both PVP and PVE but if I were asked as a PVP player to participate in some PVE aspect of the game to unlock some PVP skin, I'd find it annoying. Just like how in other games you have to level up in PVE in order to be competitive in PVP. That's REALLY annoying. So I can see how having to go into a PVP area is annoying for a PVE player. I think some of you are dismissing other people's views far too casually, even if it IS a carebear view.

Edited by Runkleford, 13 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#127 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 13 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Why do people want to do World Completion if not going for Legendary Weapons?


I did it for the accomplishment. The gifts were simply an added bonus, but I'm still not going out of my way to farm for any legendaries.

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

The workarounds are not perfect especially workarounds that require you to switch servers.  Switching servers for free would not be around forever.  They have already increased the time that you are allowed to switch servers from 24 hrs to 1 week since November 1st and we all know their goal is to charge lots of gems to deter people from switching servers ultimately.  The other workarounds carry their own risks and are not perfect.  This is why we need a proper fix from ArenaNet.

Good for you that you like both pve and pvp, but if you force PvEers to PvP then we would only mess things up.  Trying to pvp and running off to climb vistas don't mix well together anyway.


NOBODY'S FORCING ANYTHING.

When a map is contested and battles are everywhere, you're not going to be there fighting, because it 'goes against your principles'...leaving the fighting to those who want to do so. When it's safe for pacifists like yourself to go map, the fighters leave to other maps where the fighting is, so you're not taking up valuable queue space. If your server is holding the entire map, then you have free reign on that map. Trust me, I know. I got a stack and some badges simply from doing the jumping puzzles and the map completion for all four when my server dominated WvW for a week. Yes, I fought, and got quite a few badges that way as well. But it wasn't at all necessary.

No, free server transfers won't be around indefinitely. But they've also said they won't do away with them until the servers equalize and stagnate. Which is unlikely to happen. So you're in on the ground floor: you can switch servers while it's free and get your mapping. You have it better than others like you who may come later. They are either going to have to luck into a server with enough of what they want AND enough WvW'ers to be competitive, or go without the title until they can afford to switch. You can't have everything in the game handed to you. Not a single title in GW1 was handed to you simply for playing, save for the lower-level Sunspear and Lightbringer ones. Not even PvP...because playing and losing got you nothing. For the rest of the titles you had to grind your fingers off. Nobody forced it. Nobody said you had to spend 10k minutes intoxicated to get the drunkard title, either sitting still in an outpost or sacrificing your play ability with periodic random sit-downs and skill failures.

Edited by AKGeo, 13 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.


#128 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:15 PM

WvW is one of the most amazing PvE places in the game.
You have a merchant, you have crafters (that also grant you access to the bank), weaponsmiths, TP ... all the things you'd need in PvE AND there's absolutely no waypoint fees to reach it. Not only that, if you leave WvW by logging out to the character selection screen, you are automatically returned to your previous PvE position, allowing you to once again bypass the return waypoint fee.

Honestly, ALL PvE'ers should be logging into WVW to do their business in it. And not only that - the trash AI mobs drop some decent loot - I think the WvW gear scales much better than the PvE one. So that's something to keep in mind when you want to PvE but want to do it in a more "exotic" location. Just make sure you don't attack the locations that matter, since you don't want to attract the enemy's attention.


So with that in mind, I think that promoting the PvE side of WvW is a fantastic idea.

#129 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostLeokadia, on 13 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

The vast majority of titles already only require one or the other.  All but this one and the monthly bonus if I remember correctly.  Almost every single one.  This is one of a tiny number of exceptions.  Why shouldn't there be a tiny number of exceptions that appeal to the large number players who like both PvE and PvPvE while 99% of the titles available work *exactly* like you specify.

If we have 2 separate titles, 1 called Mist Exploration and the other called Tyria Exploration, for example, then those who like PvP-only can go for the former and those who like PvE-only can go for the latter.  Those who like both PvE+PvP can go for both titles instead of just 1.  Alternatively, have points where you can earn 1 title through PvE-only, PvP-only, or both if you prefer (e.g. luxon/kurzick factions in GW1).

Compared to now, we have 1 title where you need to do BOTH PvE+PvP, which is more restrictive and thus cater to a smaller group of players than my suggestions above.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#130 Leokadia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

If we have 2 separate titles, 1 called Mist Exploration and the other called Tyria Exploration, for example, then those who like PvP-only can go for the former and those who like PvE-only can go for the latter.  Those who like both PvE+PvP can go for both titles instead of just 1.  Alternatively, have points where you can earn 1 title through PvE-only, PvP-only, or both if you prefer (e.g. luxon/kurzick factions in GW1).

Compared to now, we have 1 title where you need to do BOTH PvE+PvP, which is more restrictive and thus cater to a smaller group of players than my suggestions above.

Since you quoted me but didn't answer the question, I repeat.  This time correctly using a question mark:  This is one of a tiny number of exceptions.  Why shouldn't there be a tiny number of exceptions?

#131 Lordkrall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

If we have 2 separate titles, 1 called Mist Exploration and the other called Tyria Exploration, for example, then those who like PvP-only can go for the former and those who like PvE-only can go for the latter.  Those who like both PvE+PvP can go for both titles instead of just 1.  Alternatively, have points where you can earn 1 title through PvE-only, PvP-only, or both if you prefer (e.g. luxon/kurzick factions in GW1).

Compared to now, we have 1 title where you need to do BOTH PvE+PvP, which is more restrictive and thus cater to a smaller group of players than my suggestions above.

And which of those should award the Gift of Exploration? :)

#132 LFk

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 13 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

And which of those should award the Gift of Exploration? :)

Maybe both would give you the star + gifts?

The suggestion is not insane. If it were implemented that way (Mists explorer + Tyrian Explorer = separate titles. Both together give you gifts + star), I bet no one would have really thought anything of it.

Still, a pointless change in my opinion. It is fine that players do not want to PvP. They have separate achievements for Krytan explorer, Maguuma explorer, etc. Those are the PvE achievements. When all of those go to 100%, congratulations, you've finished PvE exploration.

You are not forced to do anything. You can freely choose not to play PvP. You forfeit the "Been there, Done that" title, which is a title that involves some light PvP. Where was it ever stated that 100% exploration was being kept separate?  



What the OP is essentially asking for is this separate title made for 100% PvE world completion. Again, not unreasonable, but something that in my opinion isn't worth the time to implement.

#133 madmaxII

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:01 PM

The problem is that WvW - unlike the other PvP modes - is a part of the PvE bracket. This justifies that you have to explore the WvW area, too.
Of course it is a little dull that you have to explore the same map three times and that you can't reach all points on a map on your own.

I wonder if there is something official concerning this. They should have known that this is controversial and it would be interesting to see the thought process behind it.

#134 Lordkrall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostLFk, on 13 December 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Maybe both would give you the star + gifts?

Which would mean everyone would simply go for the PvP version seeing as that is MUCH less work and it would be quite unfair to those that refuse to play PvP.

#135 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 13 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Which would mean everyone would simply go for the PvP version seeing as that is MUCH less work and it would be quite unfair to those that refuse to play PvP.

He meant you'd have to achieve both to get the star and gifts. But for those who like PvE and WvW, having to do the PvP maps just for the title/star and legendary weapon is worse than someone who's strictly PvE having to spend a couple hours running around a PvE area that just so happens to have enemies controlled by human players.

#136 Craywulf

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:41 PM

View PostProtoss, on 13 December 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

WvW is one of the most amazing PvE places in the game.
You have a merchant, you have crafters (that also grant you access to the bank), weaponsmiths, TP ... all the things you'd need in PvE AND there's absolutely no waypoint fees to reach it. Not only that, if you leave WvW by logging out to the character selection screen, you are automatically returned to your previous PvE position, allowing you to once again bypass the return waypoint fee.

Honestly, ALL PvE'ers should be logging into WVW to do their business in it. And not only that - the trash AI mobs drop some decent loot - I think the WvW gear scales much better than the PvE one. So that's something to keep in mind when you want to PvE but want to do it in a more "exotic" location. Just make sure you don't attack the locations that matter, since you don't want to attract the enemy's attention.


So with that in mind, I think that promoting the PvE side of WvW is a fantastic idea.
Holy...shit! did you just say something positive about this game!? Congrats to you, and welcome to the other perspective.

Edited by Craywulf, 13 December 2012 - 10:42 PM.


#137 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostLeokadia, on 13 December 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Since you quoted me but didn't answer the question, I repeat.  This time correctly using a question mark:  This is one of a tiny number of exceptions.  Why shouldn't there be a tiny number of exceptions?

Uh...because that particular exception is bad and doesn't appeal to as many players as this?

View PostLordkrall, on 13 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

And which of those should award the Gift of Exploration? :)

Actually I don't care about that since I don't care about making my own legendary, so let ArenaNet decide.  Perhaps they can have 1 Gift for each title?

View PostLordkrall, on 13 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Which would mean everyone would simply go for the PvP version seeing as that is MUCH less work and it would be quite unfair to those that refuse to play PvP.

For PvP they can always tag on more conditions to it if that is the case.  Like hold a keep for X hours/days, I don't know.  You guys are the experts in pvp. :)

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 10:59 PM.


#138 Craywulf

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

Separating the rewards will only separate the community. ArenaNet is trying foster unity between PvE and PvP, and that's probably why WvW is included in the exploratory completion.

#139 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 13 December 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Separating the rewards will only separate the community. ArenaNet is trying foster unity between PvE and PvP, and that's probably why WvW is included in the exploratory completion.

I don't think so.  There are people who PvE or PvP in my guild+previous guilds and they seem to get along just fine.  I don't think it is this single world completion title that is the unification factor for PvE and PvP people to get along.  :)

In any case, if GW1 is any history indicator, forcing hardcore PvPers to PvE or PvEers to PvP would cause more hatred and divide with the other camp than anything else.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 11:15 PM.


#140 LFk

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

Yes, lordkrall, I meant both together. Also, if ANet does indeed make the change, what does it matter to most of us? So there's a separate PvE only world completion title. Who cares?

The only reason I would care is that I think this is really a non-issue to begin with. If you don't want to complete the world, don't complete the world. The battlegrounds, as of right now, are part of the world. No one is forcing world completion on you; if you don't want a legendary, then world completion is absolutely optional.

I would much rather see ArenaNet focus their efforts elsewhere, on fixing existing bugs that are likely to impact many players. After the game is far more stable, i'd be okay with them trying to satisfy the niche groups, like the fanatically devoted PvP pacifists.

#141 Leokadia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Uh...because that particular exception is bad and doesn't appeal to as many players as this?

How do you know how many players prefer each option?

#142 Craywulf

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

I don't think so.  There are people who PvE or PvP in my guild+previous guilds and they seem to get along just fine.  I don't think it is this single world completion title that is the unification factor for PvE and PvP people to get along.  :)

In any case, if GW1 is any history indicator, forcing hardcore PvPers to PvE or PvEers to PvP would cause more hatred and divide with the other camp than anything else.
Stop using GW1 as indicator, because this isn't GW1.2, Secondly stop using the term "forcing" because it makes you come off ignorant. You're not being forced to do anything. Doing a task and getting a reward is a very basic mechanic. You only have it in your head that map completion is completely PvE. No where does ArenaNet say this or imply this is the case for GW2.

The fact that you refuse to do the task(s) for the reward, the problem is you, not the game.

#143 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

I don't think so.  There are people who PvE or PvP in my guild+previous guilds and they seem to get along just fine.  I don't think it is this single world completion title that is the unification factor for PvE and PvP people to get along.  :)

In any case, if GW1 is any history indicator, forcing hardcore PvPers to PvE or PvEers to PvP would cause more hatred and divide with the other camp than anything else.

Oh My God. He didn't say "make PvE players get along with PvP players". He said "foster unity between PvE and PvP." That means "get people to try both, by giving incentives for people to do so." This also translates into "you have a choice, but you won't get as much if you only stick with one". And that's TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE. If you don't do XYZ, you don't get rewards for XYZ. I think if WvW was more than a paltry 2% of world exploration you might have a point. IF it were half, then yes. 2%? Are you kidding me? That's not forcing, that's incentive. Dip your wick into it, get it done, and make the choice to stick around or leave forever. Nobody is forcing a damn thing.

WvW is what AB was in Factions: PvPvE. You didn't really need to fight other players to cap shrines, just NPC enemies. Stay away from the zerg. WvW is a huge expansion on this with sieges, and much more area to avoid enemy players if that's your purpose. They even have camps without the need for siege. There are sentry posts which are soloable. There are quests in the skill point areas where you can gain karma. And if you want to max out exploration, all you need to do is walk in the keeps and towers that your server owns.

Edited by AKGeo, 13 December 2012 - 11:48 PM.


#144 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 13 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Stop using GW1 as indicator, because this isn't GW1.2, Secondly stop using the term "forcing" because it makes you come off ignorant. You're not being forced to do anything. Doing a task and getting a reward is a very basic mechanic. You only have it in your head that map completion is completely PvE. No where does ArenaNet say this or imply this is the case for GW2.

The fact that you refuse to do the task(s) for the reward, the problem is you, not the game.

I am well aware of what doing a task and getting a reward means.  But since this task involves doing something that I dislike doing, I have only 2 options:  I can force myself to do it for the reward or I can quit.  Since the latter option would be an ultimatum, it feels like a force to do pvp which has nothing to do with a PvE world exploration title.  Considering the Mist as part of the world is as good as considering Mars as part of Earth.  As it currently stands now the world completion title has more requirements within the PvE world than the PvP world, so yes I would say it is more of a PvE title than a PvP title at this stage.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 11:58 PM.


#145 Daximus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

Why do you have to complete the map?

#146 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Quit what? The game? Is exploration your only goal in this game? Then by all means...don't let the door hit you on the way out. It's your arbitrary stubborn whiny attitude that's "forcing" you to do anything at all.

And it's not a PvE exploration title. It's an Exploration title. Nowhere does it say "PvE".

Not to mention that WvW is included in the Monthly achievements. NOT the PvP monthly. Even though you are required to kill people. I bet that just chaps your ass.

Just keep in mind that it's your personal choice to not do any of this content. Nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. And if you don't want to WvW, then you don't get the title. Simple as that.

#147 LFk

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostDaesu, on 13 December 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

I am well aware of what doing a task and getting a reward means.  But since this task involves doing something that I dislike doing, I have only 2 options:  I can force myself to do it for the reward or I can quit.  Since the latter option would be an ultimatum, it feels like a force to do pvp which has nothing to do with a PvE world exploration title.  Considering the Mist as part of the world is as good as considering Mars as part of Earth.

Why isn't there an option 3: "continue playing without the Been There, Done That title"?
Or do you mean 'quit' not as in quitting the game, but simply quitting the task.
In which case, yes, I would suggest that. Simply quit the task, as it seems you are at a dead end. Completion requires some play in the Mists. You do not want to play in the Mists. Games should be about what you enjoy doing, so you are now as far as you'll ever get. Go for some other achievement!

This is in no way an ultimatum, simply an acknowledgement that completing the current task will include something which you don't enjoy, and thus, you decline and do something else.

#148 omar316

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 13 December 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Separating the rewards will only separate the community. ArenaNet is trying foster unity between PvE and PvP, and that's probably why WvW is included in the exploratory completion.

Well, if they are indeed trying to get the commuity together then they are absolutely doing a bad job of it for sure.

#149 Daesu

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostLFk, on 14 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Why isn't there an option 3: "continue playing without the Been There, Done That title"?
Or do you mean 'quit' not as in quitting the game, but simply quitting the task.

I meant quitting the task.  But now that you have mentioned it, there is not much of anything else that I enjoy in this game other than exploring.  And the bad design decisions on the gear tier now makes me think that this is really a totally different game from what I thought it was when I bought it.

After playing GW1 for 7+ years and supporting AreaNet through all the expansions, I don't think I can continue to make this game last for even a year.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 12:15 AM.


#150 AKGeo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

View Postomar316, on 14 December 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Well, if they are indeed trying to get the commuity together then they are absolutely doing a bad job of it for sure.

Not so much. There will always be PvPers who act elite, there will always be PvEers who hate PvPers who are elitist, and they'll always be the most vocal.

The sheer amount of people in WvW who partake in the various aspects of it, both PvP and PvE, and the acceptance of Commanders displaying e-peen in PvE areas tells me that the gap isn't as big as you may think.

Edited by Khalija, 20 December 2012 - 06:23 AM.
removed trollish comment that started a small flame





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