370 replies to this topic

[indure]

Terrible thread in all honesty. The OP wants full rewards without doing full work. The explorer title is 1.) 100% completion of all maps (PVP included), 2.) worth nothing, and 3.) completely optional. Anyone who says they love exploration and is a completionist, but doesn't want to explore 4 huge maps because it may not be fun is a liar. If a meaningless title is so important to you, then suck it up and explore the new maps and if it isn't, then live with the fact that you personally know you've completed all the exploration of PVE.

[Daesu]

indure, on 14 December 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Terrible thread in all honesty. The OP wants full rewards without doing full work. The explorer title is 1.) 100% completion of all maps (PVP included), 2.) worth nothing, and 3.) completely optional. Anyone who says they love exploration and is a completionist, but doesn't want to explore 4 huge maps because it may not be fun is a liar. If a meaningless title is so important to you, then suck it up and explore the new maps and if it isn't, then live with the fact that you personally know you've completed all the exploration of PVE.

A completionist doesn't have to like everything under the sun and it is not completely optional with regards to the title which I have completed 90+% of it.  There is no reason for anyone to suck it up to play this game in a way that he/she doesn't enjoy playing.

It is funny when you think back on the GW2 manifesto 3 months ago about playing the game the way you enjoy playing and reading what you said about sucking it up right now.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[AKGeo]

Daesu said:

It is funny when you think back on the GW2 manifesto 3 months ago about playing the game the way you enjoy playing and reading what you said about sucking it up right now.

You still can play the way you want. If the way you want to play is "not pvp", then you can not play PvP. If the way you want to play is "complete the Been There Done That title", then you do WvW enough to get it. If you want both of those, then you have a conflict that is not Anet's problem to resolve. So you have to choose. No PvP at all, or 100% completion. And yes, there's a third option of leave the game because your arbitrary limitations exclude you from 50% of the game (but only 2% of the title). Pretty lame reason to leave...over 2% of exploration and stubbornness.

Edited by Khalija, 20 December 2012 - 06:22 AM.
removed personal insult

[Sheepski]

Daesu, on 13 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

The workarounds are not perfect especially workarounds that require you to switch servers.  Switching servers for free would not be around forever.  They have already increased the time that you are allowed to switch servers from 24 hrs to 1 week since November 1st and we all know their goal is to charge lots of gems to deter people from switching servers ultimately.  The other workarounds carry their own risks and are not perfect.  This is why we need a proper fix from ArenaNet.

Good for you that you like both pve and pvp, but if you force PvEers to PvP then we would only mess things up.  Trying to pvp and running off to climb vistas don't mix well together anyway.

The way I see it is that the main principle isn't totally about the exploration. It's about forcing PvP on a player when they wish to do a non-PvP activity. This is the same as open world PvP, which in effect WvW is. I personally hate open world pvp, as when I want to pvp I'll go to the arenas/spvp etc, when I want to pve I want to pve, not get ganked or stopped doing what I want because of pvp'ers.

So therefore it's great that GW2 has a choice whether you want to take part in that open world pvp or not. However that choice is taken away from a player when they are required to to wvw to do exploration, which in itself is purely a pve activity. If you endorse forcing players to do open-world pvp even on a small scale, with workarounds, for exploration... you'd surely want the whole world, or the vast majority as open-world pvp.

And frankly saying you "don't have to" get 100% completion is like saying you "don't have to" kill the last boss in the dungeon to feel rewarded as you get loot all the way through.


P.S Not sure why I quoted you, I'm agreeing with you after all, on the whole.

[Tyrant Crimson]

Zergtrain schedules. Learn them.

[Daesu]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

You still can play the way you want. If the way you want to play is "not pvp", then you can not play PvP. If the way you want to play is "complete the Been There Done That title", then you do WvW enough to get it. If you want both of those, then you have a conflict that is not Anet's problem to resolve. So you have to choose. No PvP at all, or 100% completion. And yes, there's a third option of leave the game because your arbitrary limitations exclude you from 50% of the game (but only 2% of the title). Pretty lame reason to leave...over 2% of exploration and stubbornness.

Why shouldn't PvEers get a PvE title for completing PvE?  And I would argue that the Mist is not regarded as part of the world so it should not be considered in World Completion.  This is further evidenced by the fact that the title requires much more PvE areas (about 88%) than PvP areas.  The title is used to reward people who loves exploring in PvE, you have other titles for PvP already.  What has climbing vista got to do with actual PvP anyway?

The activity for the world completion title has nothing to do with actual WvW performance, where strategies, communication and pvp combat skills matter more.  People on this thread have already said that they could run off on their own, complete the title, without even participating in WvW.  Then why should this title be included in WvW?  So that PvE players can join the map, then run off on their own to do vistas and pois without working as a team for WvW?  How is that helping to make WvW better?

Sure, there are workarounds even when ArenaNet starts charging 1200 gems (or US$15) for server transfers.  I can still run around naked so I don't incur repair charges.  But I fail to see how encouraging PvE players to run around naked on their own to do vistas and pois makes WvW better.  If people kill them, it will further breed enmity between PvE players and PvP players, and there will be even more threads like this.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[AKGeo]

Because WvW is part of the PvE environment, just as AB was part of GW1's PvE environment. It simply has a primary element that is PvP. But it's NOT PvP in the GW sense of the term. When the only way you can possibly win in a game mode is to fight and defeat human players, that's PvP. When you have an option, as slim of a chance as you might have, to completely capture a WvW map without fighting a single solitary human player, it stops becoming PvP and becomes PvEvP. Therefore, it is part of the PvE category, therefore world completion includes it. This is the stance of Anet, and you have no call on that matter. You can complain, you can whine, you can moan, and you can continue being stubborn all you want, but in the end, this is Anet's game to define, change and offer rewards in how they please.

As for why they allow for players to "run off" and do their own thing...why the hell do you think they put vistas, skill points and POIs inside keeps, towers, and Stonemist Castle?  To encourage those who want the title to participate in capturing these points. EVERY KEEP, EVERY TOWER, AND THE CASTLE has at least one point that counts towards exploration. And unless you're on a server that dominates and holds everything, you're not going to be able to just waltz in whenever you want to finish it. You'll either have to help, or wait until that specific point is controlled.

And yes, it makes WvW better, by giving incentive for players who otherwise wouldn't do it to go in and try it out. It puts bodies in the maps that might not, but likely WILL contribute to the objectives.

Edited by AKGeo, 14 December 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Sheepski]

I actually felt sorry for some people in wvw when I've been mapping. On a few occasions I've gotten a PoI/Vista and a team-mate is next to me, we both start running off when we see a couple of enemies approaching. If I was doing WvW at the time for WvW then I'd have joined him to fight, with a decent chance of winning. But nope.. I just ran off on a tangent towards the next point, as I didn't want to risk repairs, a lot of traveling back and thus more risk to my mapping exercise.

And yet at the same time I felt awful for doing that, but it's what the game encourages. I've also had other people do similar things and felt rather irritated.

[Daesu]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Because WvW is part of the PvE environment, just as AB was part of GW1's PvE environment. It simply has a primary element that is PvP. But it's NOT PvP in the GW sense of the term.

Oh my god, do you even know what PvP stands for?  Are you trying to argue with me that WvW is not Player-vs-Player?

And not all the Vistas, pois, and skill points are inside keeps.  Many of them are out in the open so your argument is not valid.

Besides, you have not answered my questions.  How would naked solo PvE players running around in WvW makes WvW better?

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 01:41 AM.

[Sheepski]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Because WvW is part of the PvE environment, just as AB was part of GW1's PvE environment.

I don't recall AB counting towards cartographer. JQ/FA did. However all of these locations were on the Canthan continent, so is understandable if they're part of Canthan Cartographer, even if the same result; not aiding team mates, occurs.

[AKGeo]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Oh my god, do you even know what PvP stands for?  Are you trying to argue with me that WvW is not Player-vs-Player?

And not all the Vistas, pois, and skill points are inside keeps.  Many of them are out in the open so your argument is not valid.

Besides, you have not answered my questions.  How would naked solo PvE players running around in WvW makes WvW better?

Try reading the rest of the post, not just the part you have a reply for. Stop ignoring valid arguments simply because they make your points look as idiotic as they are.

And your question was not "naked pve players", your question was "people who go to explore"...and yes, I did answer it, in the post you decided to ignore the majority of.


And it doesn't matter if many of them are out in the open...OVER HALF OF THEM are inside walls. You can't get 100% if you're missing even one, and 1% of your title is INSIDE WALLS. To someone like you, even ONE point inside a keep is equivalent to all of them being inside keeps...if you refuse to put in the effort to get there, you're always going to fall short of that 100% mark.

Valid points by the handful being thrown at you and you're too stubborn or stupid to realize how completely, utterly stupid you look.

Edited by Chalky, 14 December 2012 - 09:19 AM.
calm down please

[Daesu]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Try reading the rest of the post, moron, not just the part you have a reply for. Stop ignoring valid arguments simply because they make your points look as idiotic as they are.

And your question was not "naked pve players", your question was "people who go to explore"...and yes, I did answer it, in the post you decided to ignore the majority of.


And it doesn't matter if many of them are out in the open...OVER HALF OF THEM are inside walls. You can't get 100% if you're missing even one, and 1% of your title is INSIDE WALLS. Valid points by the handful being thrown at you and you're too stubborn or stupid to realize how completely, utterly stupid you look.

I read the rest of your post, you quoted me but you completely ignored my questions.  PvE players are just there for the vistas, pois, and skill points.  They are not there to strategize with you to take a keep, otherwise they wont be PvE players.

How would adding such players who runs around on their own be better for WvW?  They don't even bother about getting building materials for trebuchets and ballistas.  PvE players don't bother because if their team is losing there is nothing they can do about it, they are PvE players anyway and they are not there for WvW.  If I really want the skill points in somebody else's keep, I would wait for the map rotation.

Not being able to answer my questions doesn't make you very smart.  Neither is resorting to name calling.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Ardeni]

I agree that WvW shouldn't be part of world completion. Personally I had no problem getting the WvW maps explored since I was lucky enough when my server captured all of the maps back in October. However, now that I've spent a month or so in a guild that does quite professional WvW, I have to say that the WvW map completion is nothing but a hindrance. The players who are in WvW just to get the PoIs are sometimes consntantly trying to contact our commander to take this or take that and they aren't interested in playing well either. Removing the WvW maps from world completion would be beneficial for both the people who don't want to be steamrolled by a zerg and for the people who are interested in serious WvW matches.

[Reverse Ghost]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

There is no reason for anyone to suck it up to play this game in a way that he/she doesn't enjoy playing.

No, there is no reason. Play the game the way you want to play it, don't care so much about getting some arbitrary achievement.

So don't get 100% map, because getting 100% map completion in Guild Wars 2 means going into WvW.

[Daesu]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

What part of "they get drawn there and they are likely, but not always, going to end up participating in WvW activities" do you not understand?

Just quit. Everything. The game, the forums, life. Please.

That is a lot of wishful thinking.  Most PvE players, unless they come prepared and learn WvW mechanics, simply end up in WvW without knowing what is going on.  There was no tutorial on where to get the supply, what to do with them, and I dont see anyone protecting any caravans even though the game kept asking me to do that.  Most people would end up too lost to contribute effectively to the WvW effort.  I didn't even know what color team I am on when I started and I was suddenly attacked by a thief when I am out in the open area within my team's control.  It took me a while to learn the very basics of what is going on.

I wanted to quit but some people wanted me to stay so too bad for you.  

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[escada_assassin]

Fizzypop, on 13 December 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

But plenty of people have tried WvW. I usually LOVE pvp especially this style of pvp, but in gw2 it's boring. It's not fun. I don't know why, but it isn't. I'm almost 100% on map and I've done at least half of WvW, but to be honest I don't want to complete the rest because I just find it unfun. Map completion itself isn't important to me so no biggie, but I can see why others might want this to change. It seems kind of dumb that they include something that isn't even part of the actual planet in world completion. They could easily separate it into Tyria completion and the mists completion which could also include all the spvp maps. Of course that'd make too much sense. Can't be doing that.

Agree with you. Though I mapped all wvwvw and I didn't like it one bit, I now found that I like doing wvwvw. But thinking from the perspective of someone who only enters wvwvw to map...that's gotta suck. I remember that when I was trying to reach a WP it was contested and so many mobs around that it was impossible for me to reach it. Same goes for vistas or skill points. There's always your bunch of tard thieves guarding a WP / SP / Vista and killing everyone who attempts to get it. Yeah, I guess they should exclude wvwvw mapping for world map completion.

Edited by escada_assassin, 14 December 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[Daesu]

Reverse Ghost, on 14 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

No, there is no reason. Play the game the way you want to play it, don't care so much about getting some arbitrary achievement.

So don't get 100% map, because getting 100% map completion in Guild Wars 2 means going into WvW.

I am fine with 90+% afterall, the most enjoyable part of the game for me is playing with my friends.  Not the achievements.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 06:39 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

I am fine with 90+% afterall, the most enjoyable part of the game for me is playing with my friends.  Not the achievements.

So.. why fight so hard to remove the WvW part of the achievement?

[Astral Projections]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Snip

Can't you get a group of friends/guild mates to go with you and do WvW together? Having several people together will allow you to use continuous speed buffs and if there is a fight, you don't have to join in. You may be able to stay on the fringe and give boons to your group. Also, having a group of people will also discourage smaller groups from attacking your group.

[Expherious]

You could always pretend that its PvE.... Otherwise its just one decision outweighing another, like most things in life.

[AKGeo]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

That is a lot of wishful thinking.  Most PvE players, unless they come prepared and learn WvW mechanics, simply end up in WvW without knowing what is going on.  There was no tutorial on where to get the supply, what to do with them, and I dont see anyone protecting any caravans even though the game kept asking me to do that.  Most people would end up too lost to contribute effectively to the WvW effort.  I didn't even know what color team I am on when I started and I was suddenly attacked by a thief when I am out in the open area within my team's control.  It took me a while to learn the very basics of what is going on.

I wanted to quit but some people wanted me to stay so too bad for you.  

Again you're speaking for a group of people when your opinion is your own. I'm a PvE player. I enjoy the hell out of WvW. We now cancel each other out. Stop speaking for multitudes when you're only speaking for yourself.

[Illein]

Neither is it written down any where that a 100% Exploration achievement is a purely PvE affair. The legendaries would be regarded in quite the same light no? I mean it's 90% PvE but you still need your Gift of Battle for 500 Badges of Honor to complete it - I don't see people whining about that.

And 500 Badges compared to running through each map in a circle and diagonally twice - is a larch fart.

Get over it,  it takes an afternoon of running around to get that part behind you, if you never want to set a foot into WvW afterwards, you're completely free to do so. And that's only if you desperately want that little star next to your name.

Edited by Illein, 14 December 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[Trei]

Once again, just because you simply set foot on a map where players can kill you does not mean you are pvp'ing.

Do you need to kill players to succeed in your goal? No.

Do you need to win the entire wvw match to succeed in your goal? It sure would help, but again... no.

Do you need to even play against any other player for your goal? No.

So how exactly does world completion force you to pvp?

If I join a spvp match but just simply afk in one secluded corner of the battleground, am I doing pvp?
No, I am actually doing Nothing.

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

So.. why fight so hard to remove the WvW part of the achievement?

Because I want the game to get better.  I am sad to see GW2 is such a terrible state after playing GW1 with my friends for 7+ years through all its expansions.

Astral Projections, on 14 December 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

Can't you get a group of friends/guild mates to go with you and do WvW together? Having several people together will allow you to use continuous speed buffs and if there is a fight, you don't have to join in. You may be able to stay on the fringe and give boons to your group. Also, having a group of people will also discourage smaller groups from attacking your group.

Believe it or not, my guild is an active WvW guild, and I am sure if I have asked I would get help.  But it is not a matter of me getting that last few percent which I am sure I can do it if I really want to.  The game still should be fixed so that PvE people do not have to rely on workarounds like server transfers to get their world completion done.

Now, people like AKGeo kept turning my appeal to fix the game into a personal attack against me.  When the problem is not that I cant get world completion at all, even without any external help.  There are already workarounds that are presented on this thread.  But workarounds are still workarounds and the game should have the proper fixes, instead of expecting players to rely on workarounds.  The game should have separate titles for PvE and PvP exploration.  Like it or not, the world exploration title is still more of a PvE title than a PvP title as 88% of the objects are in the PvE world and the Mist is as much a part of the world as Mars is a part of the Earth.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Because I wanted the game to get better.

In your eyes.
But why assume that it would get better by them removing "forced" access to WvW?

Is there really any real reason to get World Completion if not going for Legendary?

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

In your eyes.
But why assume that it would get better by them removing "forced" access to WvW?

Is there really any real reason to get World Completion if not going for Legendary?

Yes, the reason is simply that one enjoys exploring.  It is not so much the end reward but the journey that counts.  Which is why I can ignore the last few percent because the journey is starting to suck.  My wife is also completing maps but she is an even more casual player than I am and doesn't even know what the 100% map completion reward would be.  I really doubt she is doing this for any legendary weapon.

Why would removing forced access to WvW make it better?  Because if they are separate titles, PvE players can work on exploration and get some appreciation for it.  PvP players can work on their exploration and pvp and get appreciation for it.  For those players who like to do BOTH, can attempt both titles, so everyone is happy.  Compared to right now, only those who like to do BOTH would get any appreciation for their efforts.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Xunlai Agent]

So if this solely about exploring then why do you not ignore WvW or does it have to say 100% to get that feeling of validation? It is wrong that ArenaNet put PvE elements into WvW and they should never have gone this way, however there are work-arounds to the current dismal state of affairs. You refuse to accept these with laughable logic: "If I adapt I will be forced to PvP in no time!" which is completely nonsensical and juvenile (does your wife get to hear these type of childish arguments?)

Be a refusenik if you want and email ArenaNet to change it, but please stop posting such silly rebuttals - it really really makes you look bad.

[Doki20]

Sheepski, on 14 December 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

...If I was doing WvW at the time for WvW then I'd have joined him to fight, with a decent chance of winning. But nope.. I just ran off on a tangent towards the next point, as I didn't want to risk repairs, a lot of traveling back and thus more risk to my mapping exercise.

And yet at the same time I felt awful for doing that, but it's what the game encourages. I've also had other people do similar things and felt rather irritated.

Actually.. the problem is with you, and not with the game: Also, if it would "irritate" you so much as you state when others do this, then why do it yourself as well instread of turning around and fighting? (repairs are not THAT high, and travel time.. you got speed buffs for that)You could maybe even spark the thought into those other players that "Maybe I should stay and help instead of running away like a chicken" but oh well.. that would prolong the time required to reach your own personal goals.

The exploration part, and the monthly achievement part for WvW is to make people do every kind of stuff: in this case WvW, so they may start to like it. If there would be no "pushing", then you would never do that and maybe wouldn't find out that you actually love that aspect of the game. (Kinda like small kids who don't want to eat their broccoli/peas/sweet corn/whatever even though they don't know how it tastes, do it as their parents "force" it and turn out to love it..)
In WvW if you see enemies, you should just stop and fight, then continue marching to your own goals.

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

...
How would adding such players who runs around on their own be better for WvW?  They don't even bother about getting building materials for trebuchets and ballistas.  PvE players don't bother because if their team is losing there is nothing they can do about it, they are PvE players anyway and they are not there for WvW. ...

And who's fault is it that they are so useless? To a basic level they should be able to help, and if they need a poi from a given fort, then it should be obvious that they help out with the assault.. after all they are there for that, and capturing is a semi-goal in the big scheme. You also seem to make the assumption that being a PvE player = unable to click on enemy players/objects and use skills, which somewhat implies that you think PvE players in a PvP environment (where the only difference is the AI of the enemies') are idiots who can't play properly.

If they can handle programmed AI, they should be be able to take on human controlled enemies as well to some extenct (weaken them at least so a "real PvP-er" can finish them off easily), as some of them are even worse than the beforementioned AI. (in GW1 there were tons of cases where players played worse than the bots/henchman..)

[Daesu]

Xunlai Agent, on 14 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

So if this solely about exploring then why do you not ignore WvW or does it have to say 100% to get that feeling of validation? It is wrong that ArenaNet put PvE elements into WvW and they should never have gone this way, however there are work-arounds to the current dismal state of affairs. You refuse to accept these with laughable logic: "If I adapt I will be forced to PvP in no time!" which is completely nonsensical and juvenile (does your wife get to hear these type of childish arguments?)

Be a refusenik if you want and email ArenaNet to change it, but please stop posting such silly rebuttals - it really really makes you look bad.

I would have enjoyed exploring the WvW map if there are not so many people there that kept wanting me dead.  My home server team is the red team, and the map that they control is shrinking.  I don't care about the reward, it is not that I can sell the Gifts of Exploration on the TP anyway to help my dwindling gold supply.  But I care about the journey, if I have to kill or be killed by someone to get through this then that breeds too much anger and hatred from either side, whether I win or lose.  I wont be able to enjoy the game this way.

Like I have said, I know about these workarounds but players should not have to rely on workarounds.  If it is a real issue, then there should be a proper fix in the game.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I would have enjoyed exploring the WvW map if there are not so many people there that kept wanting me dead.  My home server team is the red team, and the map that they control is shrinking.  I don't care about the reward, it is not that I can sell the Gifts of Exploration on the TP anyway to help my dwindling gold supply.  But I care about the journey, if I have to kill or be killed by someone to get through this then that breeds too much anger and hatred from either side, whether I win or lose.  I wont be able to enjoy the game this way.

Like I have said, I know about these workarounds but players should not have to rely on workarounds. If it is a real issue, then there should be a proper fix in the game.

Exactly.
There is not a real issue however, so there is nothing to fix.