370 replies to this topic

[Daesu]

Doki20, on 14 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

If they can handle programmed AI, they should be be able to take on human controlled enemies as well to some extenct (weaken them at least so a "real PvP-er" can finish them off easily), as some of them are even worse than the beforementioned AI. (in GW1 there were tons of cases where players played worse than the bots/henchman..)

I dont think everyone is suitable for pvp.  PvP brings out the worst in me.  If I lose, I get angry at people and starts to lose my temper to the people who are close to me.  If I win, the other guy feels bad.  I have received angry chat messages in GW1 pvp before from those whom I defeated with my mesmer.  And mesmers can be really annoying in GW1.

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Exactly.
There is not a real issue however, so there is nothing to fix.

Sigh...should I repeat my explaination on why this is an issue to those who don't like to PvP again?

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Sigh...should I repeat my explaination on why this is an issue to those who don't like to PvP again?

Your explanation is flawed. I know loads of people that don't like PvP and yet none of them have an issue with WvW needed for map completion.

It does not because a real issue just because YOU don't like it.

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Your explanation is flawed. I know loads of people that don't like PvP and yet none of them have an issue with WvW needed for map completion.

It does not because a real issue just because YOU don't like it.

There are other people, even on this thread, that admitted that they actually dislike going to WvW for map completion even though they have done it through workarounds.

It is, of course, convenient to always call those, whose opinions differ from yours, as the "minority" on the Internet, and your own opinion to be the "majority", without any supporting evidence to back up your claim.  But you should know that is not convincing to anyone.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

There are other people, even on this thread, that admitted that they actually dislike going to WvW for map completion even though they have done it through workarounds.

It is, of course, convenient to always call those, whose opinions differ from yours, as the "minority" on the Internet without any supporting evidence to back up your claim.  But you should know that is not convincing to anyone.

They disliked it. But still did it. Therefore it is quite clearly possible to complete it even if you dislike PvP, which simply proves my point.
There is no real issue.

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

They disliked it. But still did it. Therefore it is quite clearly possible to complete it even if you dislike PvP, which simply proves my point.
There is no real issue.

So you rather that the game hold on to features that people dislike so they have to rely on workarounds (e.g. server transfers) just to get over them?

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[escada_assassin]

My questiion is this : if they would separate wvwvw from PvE for map completion, would that be an inconvenient for most of the players? Would it be a reason for most the players to stop playing? I don't understand this mentality always against something that could actually help a player or more, while not standing in the way of other players. Would it bother you or anyone who reads these posts? Though I went through all the pain (I didn't understand anything from wvwvw and I still have loads to learn about it) when I did it for map completion, I wouldn't mind if they would now change things. It can't and won't help me now, but it would help others. If they find time and will someday to try wvwvw, that will be their choice.

Edited by escada_assassin, 14 December 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

So you rather that the game hold on to features that people dislike so they have to rely on workarounds just to get over them?

So you rather that a game changed completely based on what a few vocal people wants?

I suggest we remove all races except Charr then. We can also remove all the dragons, allow world PvP with Perma-death. Start adding a subscription and P2W items in the gem store while also removing the ability to trade gold for gems.

See?
Following the logic of changing the games based on vocal minorities means all these things could come to pass.

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

So you rather that a game changed completely based on what a few vocal people wants?

I suggest we remove all races except Charr then. We can also remove all the dragons, allow world PvP with Perma-death. Start adding a subscription and P2W items in the gem store while also removing the ability to trade gold for gems.

See?
Following the logic of changing the games based on vocal minorities means all these things could come to pass.

Again, do not always call those people that happen to disagree with your own opinion as the "minority" of the entire playerbase.  The "few" may actually turn out to be the majority of the players but we really don't know either way do we?  So please stop with that "minority" assumption just because we disagree with you, since you have not presented any supporting evidence that your opinion actually represents the "majority".

I know it is convenient and it probably fans your ego, but your opinion is not necessarily the majority here.

Edited by Daesu, 14 December 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Again, do not always call those people that happen to disagree with your own opinion as the "minority" of the entire playerbase.  The "few" may actually turn out to be the majority of the players but we really don't know either way do we?  So please stop with that "minority" assumption just because we disagree with you.

And yet there are, what, 4-5 people in this thread that does have something against WvW for map completion?
All but 1 have still actually done said map completion. And there are far more people than those 4-5 that does not have a problem with it.

Which quite clearly shows that this "issue" is quite small. Correct?


What do you think about Ascended Gear? (And yes, it is relevant.)

[Daesu]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

And yet there are, what, 4-5 people in this thread that does have something against WvW for map completion?
All but 1 have still actually done said map completion. And there are far more people than those 4-5 that does not have a problem with it.

Which quite clearly shows that this "issue" is quite small. Correct?


What do you think about Ascended Gear? (And yes, it is relevant.)

I am not even going to let you derail this thread.  Escada_assassin asked you a question so why can't you answer it.

http://www.guildwars...80#entry2117775

[Lordkrall]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

I am not even going to let you derail this thread.  Escada_assassin asked you a question so why can't you answer it.

http://www.guildwars...80#entry2117775

Okay, I just checked your posting history.
You are clearly against Ascended gear.

And yet you want them to do the exact same thing in this case, listen to a small group of people.

There were people requesting better gear, and ArenaNet added better gear. You clearly hated that but still you want them to listen to your little group and change something?

escada_assassin, on 14 December 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

My questiion is this : if they would separate wvwvw from PvE for map completion, would that be an inconvenient for most of the players? Would it be a reason for most the players to stop playing? I don't understand this mentality always against something that could actually help a player or more, while not standing in the way of other players. Would it bother you or anyone who reads these posts? Though I went through all the pain (I didn't understand anything from wvwvw and I still have loads to learn about it) when I did it for map completion, I wouldn't mind if they would now change things. It can't and won't help me now, but it would help others. If they find time and will someday to try wvwvw, that will be their choice.

It would screw up the whole Legendary Weapon system, since you get a Gift of Exploration from exploring. Which of those titles should give that?

If both, then why would anyone go for the PvE one when the WvW one is much easier?

[escada_assassin]

Ok. So then completely remove wvwvw mapping. Would that affect you / your playstyle / your whataver? I'm just trying to figure out how would be the best for everyone to be happy with it. I don't mind as it is now because I already did it and I won't do it again, even though I now love wvwvw-ing. But there are more people (some even not having accounts on this forum) that don't like wvwvw-ing to get 100% map exploration. So is there something that can be done about it without hurting everyone else? And I think they could even remove wvwvw from the map completion thingy. It won't hurt me in any way. And I repeat : I did it and it was a real pain, but still it won't hurt me; it will help a part / small part / big part of the player base achieve this title more easily than I did. This total remove won't hurt the Legendary Weapon system, since you'll still have to get badges of honor. Which involves doing PvP anyway. It's just a tiny bit that should be removed maybe for those who are completionists and not doing 100% map exploration for their Legendary Weapon, but because they're just...completionists. Like those who really loved wall hugging in GW1 and always took hours to hug every wall in every map.

Edited by escada_assassin, 14 December 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Sheepski]

Doki20, on 14 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Actually.. the problem is with you, and not with the game: Also, if it would "irritate" you so much as you state when others do this, then why do it yourself as well instread of turning around and fighting? (repairs are not THAT high, and travel time.. you got speed buffs for that)You could maybe even spark the thought into those other players that "Maybe I should stay and help instead of running away like a chicken" but oh well.. that would prolong the time required to reach your own personal goals.

The exploration part, and the monthly achievement part for WvW is to make people do every kind of stuff: in this case WvW, so they may start to like it. If there would be no "pushing", then you would never do that and maybe wouldn't find out that you actually love that aspect of the game. (Kinda like small kids who don't want to eat their broccoli/peas/sweet corn/whatever even though they don't know how it tastes, do it as their parents "force" it and turn out to love it..)

Lol what... nicely making assumptions and insults without no actual argument that I've not already answered.

I've done WvW, don't like it, but still forced to go there for map completion/monthlies. I'm not going to spend 3 times longer than necessary there due to being killed by people rightly assuming I'm in a pvp map for pvp, running back, being killed again on the way and having a tonne of repairs.

And honestly if you can't understand the problem with a system that forces you to pvp (yes open world pvp is still pvp, if you have even 1% chance to meet someone you have to fight) when you don't want to then maybe you'd like to force pvp players to do 10 dungeons a week in order to earn glory ranks. "ohhhh you didn't run Arah path 4 this week?! No rank 40 for you!"

And yea of course it's about personal goals. Why should I just run around doing something I don't want to, with absolutely no fun, no rewards, no objective other than to help other random people. And please don't bother with "for the server".

Edited by Sheepski, 14 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Lordkrall]

escada_assassin, on 14 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Ok. So then completely remove wvwvw mapping. Would that affect you / your playstyle / your whataver? I'm just trying to figure out how would be the best for everyone to be happy with it. I don't mind as it is now because I already did it and I won't do it again, even though I now love wvwvw-ing. But there are more people (some even not having accounts on this forum) that don't like wvwvw-ing to get 100% map exploration. So is there something that can be done about it without hurting everyone else? And I think they could even remove wvwvw from the map completion thingy. It won't hurt me in any way. And I repeat : I did it and it was a real pain, but still it won't hurt me; it will help a part / small part / big part of the player base achieve this title more easily than I did. Would

They would however still need to do WvW in order to get their Legendary (which is, no matter how much people deny it, the only reason to actually do world completion).

It is a good thing that people "need" to enter WvW, especially since quite a few people have already decided they hate WvW from the start without giving it a change. Several people I know hated WvW but still "had" to join it for world completion and now they like WvW and play it more or less daily.

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

And yet there are, what, 4-5 people in this thread that does have something against WvW for map completion?
All but 1 have still actually done said map completion. And there are far more people than those 4-5 that does not have a problem with it.

Which quite clearly shows that this "issue" is quite small. Correct?

If a significant number of people has an issue with it, why is it irrelevant?

I also know people that refuse to do WvW exploration.
And reversed logic: would people who don't mind doing WvW actually object to the removal of PvE exploration goals from PvP content? No? Then logically, changing it is still for the better.

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 14 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

If a significant number of people has an issue with it, why is it irrelevant?

I also know people that refuse to do WvW exploration.
And reversed logic: would people who don't mind doing WvW actually object to the removal of PvE exploration goals from PvP content? No? Then logically, changing it is still for the better.

Of course, but a significant number of people is not 4-5 in a thread of 200 posts. And the last time they added stuff based on a small groups wishes we had a massive shitstorm (Ascended gear) and is that really a good thing?

I prefer that it stay as it is, seeing as that does make more people play WvW, even if they had decided to hate it from the start. And more people is always needed in WvW.

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Of course, but a significant number of people is not 4-5 in a thread of 200 posts. And the last time they added stuff based on a small groups wishes we had a massive shitstorm (Ascended gear) and is that really a good thing?

I prefer that it stay as it is, seeing as that does make more people play WvW, even if they had decided to hate it from the start. And more people is always needed in WvW.

Really, ANet should make "state of the game" in-game poll to get to know what their playerbase really wants.
Why do game developers never want to know what their customers think and want?

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 14 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Really, ANet should make "state of the game" in-game poll to get to know what their playerbase really wants.
Why do game developers never want to know what their customers think and want?

Because it is still a minority of the players that actually answers those polls? And many of those that actually does tend to not care and simply press something to get it done.

They do however quite clearly monitor this and their own forum in order to find out what people wants. Which has been quite clear with recent and coming releases.

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Because it is still a minority of the players that actually answers those polls? And many of those that actually does tend to not care and simply press something to get it done.

They do however quite clearly monitor this and their own forum in order to find out what people wants. Which has been quite clear with recent and coming releases.

In-game polls are still the best way to get to know what your players want.
It's still many times better than listening to vocal minorities, as you already proved with the ascended debacle.

[escada_assassin]

Lordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

They would however still need to do WvW in order to get their Legendary (which is, no matter how much people deny it, the only reason to actually do world completion).

It is a good thing that people "need" to enter WvW, especially since quite a few people have already decided they hate WvW from the start without giving it a change. Several people I know hated WvW but still "had" to join it for world completion and now they like WvW and play it more or less daily.

Yeah, I'm one of those. Hated it when I did it for map completion now totally in love with it and except maybe one hour per total on this week, I never do anything else but wvwvw. Join my guildies or any groups on my world and help defending, taking back or push the invaders back to their holes. Cursed Shore never made me smile, neither did map completion or too many things in game actually. I have fun there, I'm always surrounded by lots of people who are willing to fight and fighting for our map. If in this entire process (I play on all chars I have available - 5 that is) I decide to get a vista or whatever, I'm doing it, if not...well I don't care, I'm not there to get vistas, I'm there to help my world and keep it safe from invaders Oh, and I almost forgot - another thing I love about people who do wvwvw is that they're not there to show off, but to actually play the game (I don't know about other worlds, but that's how mine is). Kudos Sanctum of Rall, a big bow to Christia - the only immortal guardian I've seen so far, a big bow to all the commanders there who lead us all to victory and a big bow to my mentor - Alpaca Owl. To arms, my brothers!

Edited by escada_assassin, 14 December 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Gremlin]

The reason I play games of any kind is to have fun and GW1 and 2 are no exception.
However there are parts of these games I consider were badly constructed and wvw is one of those.

I don't mind losing if there is a chance of eventually changing that to winning, I see no way of doing that without changing server to one that is actually more populated and active in wvw if they are one of the top wvw servers even better.
So I spend the months before gw2 startup contacting all my friends who were in gw1 and checking out which server we would all join and now I have to jump ship to succeed.

This is why I think server vs server will fail as there is no way to give parity in numbers for wvw matches and I am afraid the only interest I have in wvw over other forms of pvp are the large battles promised.
Anything less than say 50 vs 50 and I am going to ignore it, if this means I am unable to complete some pve achievement or some other part of the game content that is only available in wvw, then I will be both annoyed and dissappointed with anet.

[RandolfRa]

What about us WvW people who are forced to grind some ridiculous mini-missions over and over again to get good gear?

Edited by RandolfRa, 14 December 2012 - 11:39 AM.

[Craywulf]

This isn't game breaking, so it really doesn't matter how significant the complaints are. It's purely a personal issue.

[Daximus]

I don't like grinding or doing any PvE.

They should have a system set up for PvEers to get their gear through PvE but for the rest of us we should get all gear through killing players and taking keeps in WvW. Think this will ever happen? Should it? Discuss.

[Darkobra]

I have NEVER seen a reason to have world exploration in WvW. It's not part of any continent. It encourages world explorers to go rush to an out of the way point of interest or skill point quest and these people take up numbers for the people actually trying to get in to play WvW.

All this does is hurt both PvEers AND WvWers. The people who say that this is fine clearly have no issues with affecting the game play of others.

[Doki20]

Sheepski, on 14 December 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Lol what... nicely making assumptions and insults without no actual argument that I've not already answered.

I've done WvW, don't like it, but still forced to go there for map completion/monthlies. I'm not going to spend 3 times longer than necessary there due to being killed by people rightly assuming I'm in a pvp map for pvp, running back, being killed again on the way and having a tonne of repairs.

And honestly if you can't understand the problem with a system that forces you to pvp (yes open world pvp is still pvp, if you have even 1% chance to meet someone you have to fight) when you don't want to then maybe you'd like to force pvp players to do 10 dungeons a week in order to earn glory ranks. "ohhhh you didn't run Arah path 4 this week?! No rank 40 for you!"

And yea of course it's about personal goals. Why should I just run around doing something I don't want to, with absolutely no fun, no rewards, no objective other than to help other random people. And please don't bother with "for the server".

You stated that the game "forces" this mentaility on you (to run away from every enemy player) and I simply said that it's your own mentality forcing you to do this.
Also, the map completion and the monthly achievements give barely any significant advantage (mystic coins are not expensive, and jug of karma can be used only to avoid some money-sinks with harvesting tools, getting exotic gear for alts, etc..) compared to if you wouldn't do them, so the one who "forces" you to do it against your own will is you alone. Also on the other hand, the monthly "forces" PvP-ers to PvE as well, or do the special events, yet I haven't seen anyone whine about that. The distinction you look for is the daily achievements. it clearly focuses individually on PvE-ers and PvP-ers. I don't think it's that much of an issue to make the one where you have a full month to accomplish focuses on both. (just kill 2 players every day (couple of minutes) in WvW and you have it easily done..)

Then why do you feel irritated when others just run away and (probably) leave you in the situation you have gotten into? Killing enemy players also give loot and xp, of course not exotics and pre-cursors, but still, you can't say it doesn't give any reward.

[Killyox]

Daesu, on 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Then they shouldn't require you to PVE.  I am a supporter of the separation between PVE and PVP.  That doesn't mean that you can't like both.  If we separate titles for each, then you can go for the one you like or both titles if you wish.  Alternatively, you can have a more demanding title, that allows you to earn points towards it through only playing PvE content or only playing PvP content.  You can also earn points towards it by playing both too if you like.

Having a title that demands you to play BOTH PVE+PVP, with no other options, is awfully restrictive and only appeals to players that like BOTH.

Why did i have to do PvE in order to get 100% map ? I'd rather not be forced to kill all the mobs, do all the hearts. I like exploring and seeing beautiful scenery but being forced to PvE for map completion sucks.

You are completely ignoring that World Completion IS NOT PvE achievement. That is only your assumption and nothing else.

You are NOT being forced. You have a simple choice. Do you want title or not? If you do you do a bit of pvp. If you don't want to do PvP fine. Not like 100%map is required to play the game. It's a feat of strength, strength you do not posess.

[Doctor Overlord]

I have to agree with removing WvW from map completion.   I never like to see overlap in game goals.   Warhammer Online tried to force players to do PvE in order to capture PvP zones.  It was a very stupid mechanic.  

Forcing players to do PvP when they want to do the activity of exploration never seem like a good idea to me. WvW has more than enough interesting stuff going on in it.  The Skill challenges, vistas and such are unnecessary distractions.   I've tried to do skill challenges in WvW and the whole time it felt like I was not doing my part to help my side.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how ArenaNet can remove these things at this point without ticking off the people who managed to get the WvW maps completed.  


On the subject of map completion, overlapping activities doesn't work in the PvE areas either.   The  Wall Breach Blitz puzzle in Diessa Plateau is a jumping puzzle that makes the mistake of being the barrier for both a vista and skill point.   Most of the vista challenges in Diessa range from easy to moderate.   The skill challenges are hard fights but never jumping puzzles.

The Wall Breach Blitz is not only difficult but there are mobs spawning all over it.  This overlap of mob spawns and jumping puzzle is an unpleasant change in what players see in the entire rest of the zone as far as vistas and skill challenges.   If you're just trying to complete the map, this sort of surprise sucks away the sense of enjoyment and turns it into a tedious task to grind through rather than something fun.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be difficult challenges.  The Shaman Rookery in Shiverpeaks was very fun jumping challenge with mobs in it but the difference is the goal at the end.  The Rookery simply led to a grand chest and a jumping completion.   You did not need it for a vista or skill point or zone completion. I simply did it for the fun of it. There was no sense that I needed to get it done or else I'd never be able to complete the zone and get the rewards for achievement.

Something like a hardcore achievement like cartographer can require a range of difficulty levels but basic achievements like map completion should be kept basic.   The requirements should be kept in PvE zones and have a sense of consistency in their difficulty levels.   There's a reason other games allow players to pick the difficulty level they want.   MMOs accomplish this by players picking the activity.   Hardcore titles and dungeons should consistently difficult.   Basic achievements need that same consistency.

But I'm afraid that this hasn't been the case in the way GW2 was made and I don't know what ArenaNet might do to fix it.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 14 December 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[Killyox]

Daesu, on 14 December 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

I would have enjoyed exploring the WvW map if there are not so many people there that kept wanting me dead.  My home server team is the red team, and the map that they control is shrinking.  I don't care about the reward, it is not that I can sell the Gifts of Exploration on the TP anyway to help my dwindling gold supply.  But I care about the journey, if I have to kill or be killed by someone to get through this then that breeds too much anger and hatred from either side, whether I win or lose.  I wont be able to enjoy the game this way.

Like I have said, I know about these workarounds but players should not have to rely on workarounds.  If it is a real issue, then there should be a proper fix in the game.

There is absolutely nothing to fix in this matter. Achi consists of pve + pvp. Deal with it. You are not obliged to have 100% map.

[Zheo]

I am of the opinion that WvW should NOT be part of world completion, as you can see in some of my other posts in various threads.  However, given that world transfers are free, you can easily, with a little research, find a world that is dominating their current bracket and complete your 4 wvw maps. Further, the borderland maps are basically mirror images of each other, so completing them is really a matter of repetition.  

However, I do agree that anything PvP related should not be part of a PVE completion achievement, but, given the title they award for the acheievement, I can understand why ANet did things the way they did.  Confused? Allow me to elaborate.

World Exploration gives you the title "Been there. Done that."  That title implies that you have been all over and done everything, which, presumably includes some PVP in the form of WvW in ANet's mind.

I'm not saying it's right, but I can semi follow their thought process.