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Forcing players to PvP for World Completion


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#91 Hexin GW

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:35 AM

Lame. Posting. Kind. Sir. (sorry I understand you, but kind of tired seeing the divisional posts and knocks on forcing people to play one way or the other). I will try to be constructive though ...

This goes side by side with WvW players ticked about fractals (and WvW players do have to do them because of that 8% increase to overall stats). I get your point though, you  don't want to enter into the world at all. Ever. Because you chose to only PvE. I would have enjoyed not having to go in either, I mean come on, those points are hard for keeps and towers you do not own. But I want my legendary, so I WvW (besides I enjoy it). Not everyone does, and I wouldn't expect them too.

Likewise I find it silly that PvP and WvW players have to do hosts of items in the PvE world for a legendary. End result is it's the player choosing what to do. You sound like a completionist at heart. I respect that, and while getting 'ganked' will happen in WvW ... it will happen less if you only do the points as your world owns them. Makes it a easy fast run, and check. Keep locations in EB for example swap every week. Just some thought, but you also sound as if your closing in to the end and patience have worn thin. My suggestion, if you just want it done? ... Be honest in your world's chat, and /map chat for a party and ask for some help. In one 'karma train' (even though its not much karma, there is a cycle that will eliminate all the outer supply camps. Then its just towers and keeps.

Also while you are doing this you can express your dissappointment through to Anet, on their forums. Your not alone in this arguement, but many who are not so one sided (either pvp or pve) would look at the postings as a person whining and contributing very little. I think you are frusterated, and if you were on Darkhaven, I'd help you get most of them in a day.

It will be very hard to power through the WvW PoI's as some of the base keeps in EB may not even flip at all across the week. So I would just do what you can once ... powering through the easy stuff, then just map in and check when you are in LA, and have second.

I was exactly in your shoes when I was doing my 100%, and only after I had got the point's grown hugely interested into WvW. When first stepping in, and getting slaughtered because you really don't get it, it's upsetting. (someone who doesn't go in WvW wouldn't know about the current enemy habits, nor where it would be safe to go. Remember many of us WvW players leverage voice comm, continually and have a good understanding of the full map always).

Best tips, group up... safety in numbers. It's a gang mentality out there. Know your color and the enemy colors (press your b button, its shaded behind it)... start with your borderlands and hitting the towers and keeps you own (these flop all the time), usually you will have the heaviest and free reign here. Do it during your servers prime time. Don't wait till the end of the night, because thats usually another servers morning.

By ALL means when you check the map, AVOID THE ORANGE SWORDS. That is battle territory, and likely zerg territory. If you have the chance to join in a zerg of your world, do it. If you see map chat saying 'Rally on me, we're going to take garrison, (or stone mist in EB)' ... join them. Stay in the back, away from the front, and just get your points and get the heck out.

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Edited by Hexin GW, 13 December 2012 - 04:38 AM.


#92 Trei

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:23 AM

View PostGremlin, on 13 December 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

The objection is to being forced into pvp is both obvious and sensible for both sides.

Yes I do intend to eventually do pvp  however for now I have one reason to enter wvw and that is to tame a Wolf, this is the only part of the game where they can be obtained.
Suppose you are in wvw trying to beat another server and half the players on your side are off busy exploring maps capping wolves and dying rather than forming part of a cohesive group trying to actually win, wouldnt you find that annoying.
If you take away the need for players to enter wvw for other than actually playing wvw its unlikely to happen
...
Initially, I did think it would be annoying to have players taking up valuable"space" and not contributing, then I realized its a double edged sword.

There would be undoubtedly players on the opposing sides doing the same thing. So then it becomes how your server could make use of the situation.

Also, the group of enemies distracted enough to chase squirrels are the same bunch that are not where they should be, attacking what they should not be attacking.

But I digress.
As long as an activity does not require winning an engagement against another player, I cannot count it as one that forces players to pvp. Where the activity has to be done is not really relevant.

It is up to the player to find ways to overcome a challenge, which in this case may be to avoid enemy players.

I don't find it anymore different than if Anet had place some champion mob I can't kill alone at some POI.

#93 Venereus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:39 AM

I know players who got into WvW after going in just for the map completion. There's a bright side to this thing, but whiners gonna whine.

#94 Reverse Ghost

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

I would be very interested, Daesu, in hearing more about these principles of yours that prevent you from engaging in PvP combat. I mean that sincerely.

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#95 Lunar Eclipse

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:53 AM

View PostTrei, on 13 December 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

As long as an activity does not require winning an engagement against another player, I cannot count it as one that forces players to pvp. Where the activity has to be done is not really relevant.

Well said, couldnt have put it better myself =)

#96 escada_assassin

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:53 AM

I hated doing wvwvw for map completion too. Now I'm addicted to wvwvw. Peolpe should at least try to. It's fun. And you might even enjoy wvwvw so much that you might end up by just doing wvwvw and nothing else. Participate in events, capturing points and so on. I often find myself with a big smile on my face after defending garrison or after capturing a point and so on. What was I thinking before trying wvwvw?

Edited by escada_assassin, 13 December 2012 - 06:54 AM.


#97 OnePunkArmy

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:58 AM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I refuse to be forced to participate in a game activity that I don't enjoy.
I hate this game. I'm gonna keep playing it though.

#98 Shiren

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:06 AM

Join a server that has map dominance if you have to, it's only for a week. Even in tier one this week you could have gotten map completion. We owned every point on the map at one point or another.

There are plenty of servers which completely own the map. All you have to do is run to the points you need, no PvP necessary.

#99 omar316

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:12 AM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Currently, to get world completion you need to also explore all 4 of the WvWvW maps.  I hate to start a negative thread but I don't think it is fair to force someone to PvP just to get this PvE title.  I refuse to be forced to participate in a game activity that I don't enjoy.  Anyone knows of any good tip on how to avoid getting ganked while climbing up a vista?

The repair cost to get to all these points is also horrendous if you don't wish to attack back, so the only way I know is to quit the game client fast when you are under attack.  There is no way to declare yourself neutral to stop other people from attacking you.

I am a fanboy of PvP modes. I completely agree with their implementation of a WvW map completion criteria. As you mentioned, as a person who does not like PvP, it forces them to PvP.

In my opinion, they could have just implemented a few points to explore instead of making the same shit 3x over. At least that would have been slightly interesting. Another point is they do need to advertise WvW mode, so I guess it makes sense to force you to try it at least. Anyways it's only really frustrating if your server is being completely shut out.

On NSP my time zones are super empty.

#100 Lordkrall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:15 AM

Some hate how they are forcing us to do personal story to for map completion.
Or visiting the ugly areas of the world.

See?
There will always be some people that hates whatever version they go with.


The only reason you would be bothered with world completion would be to get the Gifts of Exploration for the Legendaries.
And guess what? You need to play quite a bit of WvW in order to do that! :)

#101 biofrog

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:41 AM

Hi All.
I'd just like to chime in my experiences.  I've had 99% completion for about 3 weeks now. Since about 1 week before that, I've started playing WvW in the hopes I could get my 100%.  I've put in about 20-30 hours since that time, and I have fought, I have run naked, and I have zerged.

There are several points that are simply never taken or if they are it's for minutes and might take hours or days before it is taken again.  This doesn't include the out-in-the-field points which you can always run to eventually, and die, but you will get the POI.  It's the garrisons that aren't taken and no skill set or proficiency will help you to get them.

Unfortunately it's now left a really bad taste for WvW in my mouth, and I can't shake it off.  I abhor playing WvW.  It started off fun however it has just been a frustration over and over again.  It also seems like players are there for spite. I've had people chase me for close on 10 minutes, while I'm naked, running from POI to POI just to 'get the kill'.  It's not fun for them, or me, which makes me wonder why they are doing it in the first place?

From the sounds of replies in this thread though, it seems many completed the areas much earlier on when there was much less competition involved in WvW.  I do believe the only way you can successfully and easily finish now is to change servers.

These days however I am much more likely to just log on, jump into WvW to check captured areas, and if nothing can be captured I will leave WvW and play my enjoyable PvE experiences instead.

#102 Lordkrall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:44 AM

Well, the starting areas does chance each week (if you don't drop or rise too much in ranking) so sooner or later the keeps WILL be in your servers possession, at least at the beginning of the match.

#103 omar316

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:01 AM

View Postbiofrog, on 13 December 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Snip

Take away repair costs. Give incentives to fight out in the lakes instead of capture the keep crap. Give karma back on Cow runs, and award/reward more for full runs.

We might be able to save more of these disgruntled players.

#104 ThiaTheMuse

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:23 AM

View PostVysander, on 12 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:


Also, where does it say "world completion" is PvE? Last i checked the WvWvW maps were part of the "world" Where as the PvP maps (or the mists) are not, and thus not included in the "world" completion

See, I hate to sound like a nit-picker but...no, it's not. WvWvW takes place in the Mists, not the world of Tyria. All PvP takes place in the Mists.

#105 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View PostDaesu, on 12 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Currently, to get world completion you need to also explore all 4 of the WvWvW maps.  I hate to start a negative thread but I don't think it is fair to force someone to PvP just to get this PvE title.  I refuse to be forced to participate in a game activity that I don't enjoy.  Anyone knows of any good tip on how to avoid getting ganked while climbing up a vista?

The repair cost to get to all these points is also horrendous if you don't wish to attack back, so the only way I know is to quit the game client fast when you are under attack.  There is no way to declare yourself neutral to stop other people from attacking you.

At first, I thought the same.  Then I actually started mapping in WvW and it turned out not to be so bad after all.  Just keep a close watch on what's around you and you should be able to avoid most fights.  But.

There are three borderlands, Green, Red and Blue.  The top part is virtually impossible to do unless it's your own borderland or your server is so good that it simply wipes away any competition.
I'm on Aurora Glade.  We've only been green or red.  Which means I simply cannot do to the Blue borderlands.  I have most of the bottom part of it (I did notice I missed one viewpoint though) but the top is impossible until we turn Blue.  And that is simply bad design.  There's a chance that you can never ever finish a certain borderland simply because you never have that one as your home land....

Edited by Lady Rhonwyn, 13 December 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#106 Symbiont

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

look it from the flip side, i have to do pve content in order to get map completion and you rarely hear those players complaining!

although i disagree with the OP, but just to get one complain out from the flip side of things;
i enjoy WvW and i have to do some ridiculous PVE content that requires groups. as of yesterday it took me forever to get "Bashing Bauxite Alchemicals" done because it was designed for groups, while i was mostly solo and rarely a player show-up but quickly loose the desire to continue. i finally managed to get through it all and got that way-point at the end, which was guarded by mobs like crazy.

but note; however i don't want this game to get all carebear and make everything too easy! yet, there is still room to streamline their game design.

#107 Humfly

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostLeokadia, on 12 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

The terms I am objecting to are things like "forced" and "shoved down our throats" and such.  The title exists.  No one is making you try to get it.

And what I object to is the "if you don't like x don't do x" stock response used to answer every complaint about the game.

Requiring WvW areas for the map completion achievement and title is dumb. You can't walk into an enemy held structure and good luck trying to storm a keep or whatever on your own which doesn't make it your achievement it makes it your luck or your world's achievement or your uber skill at swapping worlds which now takes two weeks instread of two days. I had to queue for 3 hours to get into the WvW map I needed for completion - at least we don't have that problem anymore because many people took your advice and are not playing the game at all to avoid the many don't like x's.

#108 Trei

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

View PostHumfly, on 13 December 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

And what I object to is the "if you don't like x don't do x" stock response used to answer every complaint about the g...
...
- at least we don't have that problem anymore because many people took your advice and are not playing the game at all to avoid the many don't like x's.
Can't please everyone.

But let's just say they remove this requirement to go into wvw for world completion.
Then let's assume another large segment of players go "spineless anet, stop catering to carebears or I quit."

Should anet listen to them like they did for you?

#109 Amelia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

Sorry to see you disappointed , but it is called world completion not without a reason.

#110 Fizzypop

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostAmelia, on 13 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Sorry to see you disappointed , but it is called world completion not without a reason.

except WvW doesn't take place on Tyria the world...it takes place in the mists which is basically like wow's twisting nether or a place where time and space are at a stand still and reality doesn't exactly exist. It has nothing to do with the actual planet of Tyria. That's like saying in order to experience the entirety of earth you'd have to go to space and land on the moon. It's nonsense. Why do people keep using this argument?  The majority of Tyria isn't even on the map yet. Hell you don't even need to complete the instances in order to get map completion nor lost shores. It's obvious anet didn't intend to reward complete world exploring. So what does it matter if WvW is removed from map completion? It's not as if it was meant to be hard to obtain just something to show the life of your account/character.

Edited by Fizzypop, 13 December 2012 - 03:45 PM.


#111 Fizzypop

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:58 PM

View Postescada_assassin, on 13 December 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

I hated doing wvwvw for map completion too. Now I'm addicted to wvwvw. Peolpe should at least try to. It's fun. And you might even enjoy wvwvw so much that you might end up by just doing wvwvw and nothing else. Participate in events, capturing points and so on. I often find myself with a big smile on my face after defending garrison or after capturing a point and so on. What was I thinking before trying wvwvw?

But plenty of people have tried WvW. I usually LOVE pvp especially this style of pvp, but in gw2 it's boring. It's not fun. I don't know why, but it isn't. I'm almost 100% on map and I've done at least half of WvW, but to be honest I don't want to complete the rest because I just find it unfun. Map completion itself isn't important to me so no biggie, but I can see why others might want this to change. It seems kind of dumb that they include something that isn't even part of the actual planet in world completion. They could easily separate it into Tyria completion and the mists completion which could also include all the spvp maps. Of course that'd make too much sense. Can't be doing that.

#112 Amelia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:20 PM

And I cant understand why did you assume that it has to do something with Tyria from the beginning ?

"World completion consists of map completion of all possible maps in the game" ( Wiki )

You are just forcing arguments that are in fact  really irrelevant.

#113 Segraine

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

I understand where you are coming from Daesu. I've avoided WvW for as long as I can. I am not worried about mapping it when I return to the game. I used to PvP in GW1 as a monk so I am used to being chased by people. I don't like PvP unless I am playing as a healer/protector. It isn't challenging to kill people compared to keeping them alive.

I did explore WvW a little on beta. It was fun having a group of players chase me around for 10 minutes before getting bored. The trick is to pack speed boosts, snares, and knockbacks. It helps to be specced as a support. Healing is actually very powerful if you spec for it.

The title shouldn't require a foray into WvW for those who dislike PvP and don't want to kill people out of principle.

Edited by Segraine, 13 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.


#114 Westwater

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

You keep saying that Anet should do the "right" thing and make WvW not count for world completion, but who the hell says that that is "the right thing"?  You are purposely ignoring a huge aspect of the game by ignorantly refusing to PvP.  Why in any way should you deserve to get world completion when you don't want to use every game aspect?  This is like someone complaining that their paycheck gets cut when they only come into work 2 out of 5 days a week.  You refuse to put forth the effort, therefore you do not deserve the reward.

Edited by Khalija, 20 December 2012 - 06:17 AM.
removed personal insult


#115 Amelia

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

View PostSegraine, on 13 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

The title shouldn't require a foray into WvW for those who dislike PvP and don't want to kill people out of principle.

And what do you suggest for those who dislike PVE ?

#116 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

View Postbiofrog, on 13 December 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:



From the sounds of replies in this thread though, it seems many completed the areas much earlier on when there was much less competition involved in WvW.  I do believe the only way you can successfully and easily finish now is to change servers.

These days however I am much more likely to just log on, jump into WvW to check captured areas, and if nothing can be captured I will leave WvW and play my enjoyable PvE experiences instead.

I finished mine two weeks ago. If you're on a server which consistently does very well in WvW, then you'll end up being bumped up into higher tiers with more competition. Join a PvE server, where you'll eventually get enough people in WvW at a lower tier to take most if not all of the points and hold them, because you're up against servers which are even less PvP/WvW-oriented. Or wait until the wednesday of the week, check the maps, and if a server is dominating YOURS, switch to it and finish your map. You can always switch back in a week, or spend some gems to get back ASAP.

#117 Illein

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

Wow, that's a carebear thread if I ever saw one.

You're not forced to PvP even - as you do the EXACT SAME kinda bulldip you did with 98% of the remaining map to explore - you do skill points, vistas and points of interest.

If you're a hardcore pacifist and killing virtual opponents makes you physically ill - you're still not forced to kill someone but then don't whine around that you have repair costs because YOU choose to react to opposing players in a ridiculous Ghandi-act of self-determination. -_-

Transfer to the last Tier if you really don't get it done - make sure the leading party has ~609 points and you can just TP from one map to the next doing your world completion without being bothered - requires you to spend 1 week on that server in which you can group up with all your buddies to do whatever you want, anyway.

#118 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostAmelia, on 13 December 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

And what do you suggest for those who dislike PVE ?

Then they shouldn't require you to PVE.  I am a supporter of the separation between PVE and PVP.  That doesn't mean that you can't like both.  If we separate titles for each, then you can go for the one you like or both titles if you wish.  Alternatively, you can have a more demanding title, that allows you to earn points towards it through only playing PvE content or only playing PvP content.  You can also earn points towards it by playing both too if you like.

Having a title that demands you to play BOTH PVE+PVP, with no other options, is awfully restrictive and only appeals to players that like BOTH.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#119 Sheepski

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostRumstein, on 12 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

I don't mind PvPing for the exploration, but what I don't appreciate is having to rely on your server's zerg to actually conquer some keeps in order to finish it.

Or you can just get your teams points, wait for them to change position/colour, get those points, wait again, get those. It's not THAT bad... And is there really a need to rush?

I think if the PoI in the keeps/towers etc were attainable without owning them, and there weren't vistas that were inaccessible then I'd be a lot happier with it on the whole just for this reason.

I hated the idea of being forced into open world pvp at first but found the workarounds and dealt with it.

But if it was just exploring, running around etc, like supply camps; suicide to get PoI if needed... for everything.. then fine.

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#120 Daesu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostReverse Ghost, on 13 December 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

I would be very interested, Daesu, in hearing more about these principles of yours that prevent you from engaging in PvP combat. I mean that sincerely.

View PostSegraine, on 13 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I understand where you are coming from Daesu. I've avoided WvW for as long as I can. I am not worried about mapping it when I return to the game. I used to PvP in GW1 as a monk so I am used to being chased by people. I don't like PvP unless I am playing as a healer/protector. It isn't challenging to kill people compared to keeping them alive.

I did explore WvW a little on beta. It was fun having a group of players chase me around for 10 minutes before getting bored. The trick is to pack speed boosts, snares, and knockbacks. It helps to be specced as a support. Healing is actually very powerful if you spec for it.

The title shouldn't require a foray into WvW for those who dislike PvP and don't want to kill people out of principle.

Yeah for GW1 I only like playing a monk in PvP, but I still don't really like that because monks are usually the first to be targeted.  Killing people and getting killed brings out a lot of negative feelings in the game so I don't enjoy it.  I used to play a mesmer against a warrior and I made him mad at me for using crippling anguish and I can understand that anger when I was playing a warrior.  Unfortunately the world exploration title is the only exploration title in GW2 and it demands you to play both pve and pvp.

Yes, there are indeed workarounds and many people have posted good workaround suggestions.  However,  I believe that only ArenaNet can do a proper fix for this issue.

Edited by Daesu, 13 December 2012 - 06:32 PM.





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