50 replies to this topic

[Runkleford]

AKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

So if greens are common enough for you and you possess the skill to complete every aspect of the game you participate in with them (doubtful), then why cry about what other players obviously don't care about, or enjoy?



I was replying to your caps, numpty. And I wrote in caps earlier because I despise repeating myself.


It's not circular logic...it's a solution to a problem that is replayability.

Oh quit crying especially when you're the one constantly throwing out the name calling here. And yes it's still circular logic. You used circular logic with using the argument that gear tiers are there to fill in gaps. That is separate from your argument here that gear tiers are for replayability. Completely separate arguments except that your first argument has no legs to stand on. The second we can at least discuss.

AKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

You keep complaining about artificial progression in a game that is completely artificial. By definition, any progression is going to be artificial. Nothing in a video game is going to be organic, naturally progressive. That would require processing power, memory, and data storage beyond the reach of any PC owner, as well as near-AI (if not complete AI). Please, come back down to earth...this isn't Ender's Game.

That is not what I'm arguing and you know it. I already made it clear what my point was in the last 3 posts so stop misrepresenting what I said and stop being dishonest.

Edited by Runkleford, 13 December 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[AKGeo]

The

Gaps

Are

Necessary

to

keep

the


game


relevant.


You get it now? Casual players aren't going to be getting rares right off the bat. Masterwork as it stands is a decent middleground between "best" and "junk".  There will always be "junk". Junk is there to serve a dual purpose: something that you can get quite easily and it'll make do as you level and learn the game. After you gear up to fine and masterwork, the whites become an income source. I still salvage whites for tier 6 materials. The same goes for blues. Greens are there to introduce runes and sigils, rather than simply dropping the runes and sigils, you get some gear that's useful as well. Rares give the Major runes and sigils. Exotics give superior runes and sigils.

And if you remove white and blue, the green becomes "junk", rares become greens, and exotics stay where they are, with fewer gaps. Then what? There are still tiers. Ok then, remove greens altogether. Now you have Rare and Exotic. But they're not rare...it's Common and Rare. So you start with common, do most if not all of the game in common, and only go for rare for the skin.

Now you're going back to 2005 and playing GW1. Which stagnated and required a complete reboot after the expansions failed to fix the economy stagnation and lack of gear progression that keeps players playing. After Nightfall was released, Greens went to the bargain bin, only a few select skins were popular. after EotN, all of the older skins went to the bargain bin, and you had Dungeons that gave new skins, which kept skyrocketing in price making them unattainable to the casual player, both due to the price and the difficulty of the dungeons (with exploits discovered quickly allowing the rich to get richer).

GW1 was much worse in "tiering" than GW2 is. Right now, everyone has the same chance at getting a precursor if they participate regularly in the events and such that produce them. And getting a legendary requires more than just good fortune: it requires WORK. you can't buy karma, you can't buy Badges of honor. You can't just toss on a farm build and grind a dungeon for that top-tier weapon skin.

Gear tier is a game-saver, and it's completely optional as has been demonstrated by Protoss' claim that his masterwork gear is sufficient.

Edited by AKGeo, 13 December 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[Runkleford]

Haha. So you're now admitting that you were wrong and now changing your argument? Ok got it. That's all I wanted.

[AKGeo]

I haven't changed a thing...so sorry you fail to realize that due to a lack of reading comprehension.

I was explaining why the tiers exist. You put words into my mouth with me claiming that they were necessary due to their existence. Which is a retarded argument at best. I just now explained why they were necessary. They exist because they're necessary, they're necessary because it keeps the game alive in a time of entitled whiners and gimme-gimme babies like yourself constantly complaining about the little crap that shouldn't really affect them but they just need something to blubber about. Meanwhile the rest of us who understand that it's a game that we have a choice of playing, and which gives us plenty of choices of how to play it continue to enjoy ourselves.

Edited by AKGeo, 13 December 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Raytla]

Runkleford, on 13 December 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Haha. So you're now admitting that you were wrong and now changing your argument? Ok got it. That's all I wanted.

Sorry, to burst your bubble but he didn't change a thing I believe you've been misunderstanding him the entire time.

[Raytla]

AKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

The

Gaps

Are

Necessary

to

keep

the


game


relevant.


You get it now? Casual players aren't going to be getting rares right off the bat. Masterwork as it stands is a decent middleground between "best" and "junk".  There will always be "junk". Junk is there to serve a dual purpose: something that you can get quite easily and it'll make do as you level and learn the game. After you gear up to fine and masterwork, the whites become an income source. I still salvage whites for tier 6 materials. The same goes for blues. Greens are there to introduce runes and sigils, rather than simply dropping the runes and sigils, you get some gear that's useful as well. Rares give the Major runes and sigils. Exotics give superior runes and sigils.

And if you remove white and blue, the green becomes "junk", rares become greens, and exotics stay where they are, with fewer gaps. Then what? There are still tiers. Ok then, remove greens altogether. Now you have Rare and Exotic. But they're not rare...it's Common and Rare. So you start with common, do most if not all of the game in common, and only go for rare for the skin.

Now you're going back to 2005 and playing GW1. Which stagnated and required a complete reboot after the expansions failed to fix the economy stagnation and lack of gear progression that keeps players playing. After Nightfall was released, Greens went to the bargain bin, only a few select skins were popular. after EotN, all of the older skins went to the bargain bin, and you had Dungeons that gave new skins, which kept skyrocketing in price making them unattainable to the casual player, both due to the price and the difficulty of the dungeons (with exploits discovered quickly allowing the rich to get richer).

GW1 was much worse in "tiering" than GW2 is. Right now, everyone has the same chance at getting a precursor if they participate regularly in the events and such that produce them. And getting a legendary requires more than just good fortune: it requires WORK. you can't buy karma, you can't buy Badges of honor. You can't just toss on a farm build and grind a dungeon for that top-tier weapon skin.

Gear tier is a game-saver, and it's completely optional as has been demonstrated by Protoss' claim that his masterwork gear is sufficient.

Nicely said and constructive!  I like this post hehe

[Runkleford]

Catiine, on 14 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Sorry, to burst your bubble but he didn't change a thing I believe you've been misunderstanding him the entire time.

Looks like you don't understand what circular logic fallacy is either. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Raytla]

Runkleford, on 14 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Looks like you don't understand what circular logic fallacy is either. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Don't take it personally it's ok to misunderstand.  Say what you will I am not trying to argue with you your comment doesn't change the fact that you were wrong to say he changed his argument.

Edited by Catiine, 14 December 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[AKGeo]

Runkleford, on 14 December 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

Looks like you don't understand what circular logic fallacy is either. Sorry to burst your bubble.

So many people lately using their college 101 level mumbo jumbo like they're some sort of expert in the field. Sigh.

[Runkleford]

Catiine, on 14 December 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Don't take it personally it's ok to misunderstand.  Say what you will I am not trying to argue with you your comment doesn't change the fact that you were wrong to say he changed his argument.

Care to elaborate how you think I was wrong? Or are you just going to continue to be his cheerleader? I mean come on, your whole contribution here was to say that I'm wrong and then you quoted his wall of text only to say "I like this post. hehe." Geezus.

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

So many people lately using their college 101 level mumbo jumbo like they're some sort of expert in the field. Sigh.

Oh yes. Because just pointing out a flaw in your argument automatically means that I'm claiming to be an expert in the field. Field of what? That doesn't even make sense. And good job dismissing college education with such disdain.

Edited by Runkleford, 14 December 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[Ritualist]

AKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Gear tier is a game-saver, and it's completely optional as has been demonstrated by Protoss' claim that his masterwork gear is sufficient.

As mentioned numerous times, tiers refer to stats. If "tier" isn't the word you want to use, use "quality" instead.
The only reason why greens are sufficient is because of the quality/tier cap - once one reaches 80, obtaining max gear is relatively easy. You will not need to advance the tier chain, you will be able to skip right to the end of it.

So, once again - if we have a game where greens are sufficient for levelling, obtaining better gear will not help you instantly win the game and obtaining exotics isn't a massive step once you reach max level - why would you consider gear tiers to be a game-saver?


And just to clarify - having multiple skins is good and servers a purpose. Having multiple tiers of power, in a game such as GW2, where the above conditions apply, doesn't make sense.

[AKGeo]

Runkleford, on 14 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Care to elaborate how you think I was wrong? Or are you just going to continue to be his cheerleader? I mean come on, your whole contribution here was to say that I'm wrong and then you quoted his wall of text only to say "I like this post. hehe." Geezus.



Oh yes. Because just pointing out a flaw in your argument automatically means that I'm claiming to be an expert in the field. Field of what? That doesn't even make sense. And good job dismissing college education with such disdain.

I'm not dismissing college education. I'm dismissing flippant use of terminology without fully understanding the concept, something typically done by those who took a 100-level class for their electives/core and all of a sudden become Sigmund fkn Freud. Try not to over-exaggerate.

And for the last time, your "circular logic fallacy" simply does not apply to my argument.

Protoss, on 14 December 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

So, once again - if we have a game where greens are sufficient for levelling, obtaining better gear will not help you instantly win the game and obtaining exotics isn't a massive step once you reach max level - why would you consider gear tiers to be a game-saver?

Because without it, people will get bored and leave. The end. Now it's time for you to pick up a Hooked On Phonics tape and learn to read.

[Ritualist]

AKGeo, on 14 December 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Because without it, people will get bored and leave. The end.

As mentioned before - not everyone likes the exact same things. So, why does a game that shits all over tiers (by making low tier gear completely sufficient for levelling, by downscalling, by scaling gear drops, by making exotics easily obtainable, ...) need this many tiers? If you are playing GW2 for tiers, then there are better games out there that will satisfy this itch: for instance, D3. You really can't get legendaries instantly (which compared to GW2's legendaries aren't just prettier, they are actually stronger), which is why progressing through tiers makes sense. In GW2 though, there is no need to progress though tiers because you can simply go for the max tier once you actually need it.


As for the artificial design choices - as you pointed out, every game is artificial. Somebody chose to make it a certain way. But that certain way doesn't necessarily have to be the ONLY way. As folks have pointed out, gear tiers aren't necessary (or better yet, the number of tiers we see in GW2 isn't necessary) because one can make a game without them and that game can appeal to players.
And that's what Runky is saying: you've arbitrarily selected a rule and are now using the consequences of said rule to confirm the necessity of said rule, not only in this case, but you are applying the results to ALL situations.

Edited by Protoss, 14 December 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[Arewn]

The tiers seem to be there for those who do want to climb through them, it stretches out interest for those who only play occasionally and gives them a constant goal. Log in a few times a week and maybe get a new piece or two of the next tier.
Aside from that, they fit in with the leveling scheme:
Whites and blues are the normal gear at low levels and moving up you start to see greens and a yellow on rare occasion. It adds some diversity in player power as you level. Some people like to keep themselves decked out in nice stuff, while others just grab what ever drops so long as it fits their armor class. These lower tiers then become disposable vendor junk that helps pad your pocket or gives you something to salvage at higher levels, while rares become more common and you start to focus on gearing yourself in exotics at level cap.

Once at level cap there's little to no gear gating, so those who want to gear up in full exotics are pretty much free to go straight for it, while others might toil along through the easily obtainable tiers over the course of some time, such as mentioned above.
I have a friend who does just that actually, he's not that huge into GW2, but likes it enough to log in to kill an hour when he's not working, replace a piece with a green or maybe a yellow if he's lucky that day, and generally leaves feeling rewarded.

I'd also agree with the general notion AKGeo mentioned(or if that wasn't his intention, it made me think of this), that it gives more wiggle room for where to introduce things such as runes/sigils.

They could of course just have three tiers: vendor junk, normal stuff, and rares. Then just introduce things like runes/sigils using level restrictions. But I feel the current tiers offer some minor advantages or flexibility, and since it's really not in the way of anything, I haven't really cared.

[Guardian of the Light]

Well to be honest your kinda right unless your crafting most people usually skip rare and go straight for exotic however it should be noted that while your working for exotics, rares can be seen as a fun addition that help you get slightly better stats while your working for exotics. Basically they're the same as getting a green when your leveling which is better then all the blues your currently wearing.

Gear grind in general is meant to be a replacement for levels as you hit 80.

[Arquenya]

AKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

The

Gaps

Are

Necessary

to

keep

the

game

relevant.

I think that's a bit shortsighted. As if there's no succesful games without gear difference and if all games with gear differences are neccessarily "relevant". Gear stats is just an incentive to do things; they give players a goal and sense of progression. Which doesn't mean it's the only way nor that games can't do without.

[Trei]

I was halfway thru typing a long sage like analogy here with mountain climbing and base camps when I got stuck.

I can't conclude it with a logical answer why there needs to be tiers.

But would removing tiers now improve the game in any meaningful way?

It doesn't really make a difference with or without tiers, its just options.

[Raytla]

Runkleford, on 14 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

Care to elaborate how you think I was wrong? Or are you just going to continue to be his cheerleader? I mean come on, your whole contribution here was to say that I'm wrong and then you quoted his wall of text only to say "I like this post. hehe." Geezus.



Oh yes. Because just pointing out a flaw in your argument automatically means that I'm claiming to be an expert in the field. Field of what? That doesn't even make sense. And good job dismissing college education with such disdain.

I am not being anyones cheer leader I knew your reaction had something to do with me liking his post.  I read everyones post  I didn't have any problems with your post hence why I did not reply to your post at the beginning I also liked yours you had your own valid points and what you believed was or was not necessary.

That being said, I liked his post also, he mentioned valid points as well that made me think about "tiers" and why he thought it was needed.  His argument was very strong and it stood out.   That is why I really liked his post, it made me think.  Does this mean I agree with everything he wrote?  No, I do not.  However,  it was an interesting read.

The only thing I did not like I replied too I wasn't trying to be rude about it I just said that you've been misunderstanding him he didn't admit he was wrong-That was my only problem or else I wouldn't have replied.  Does this mean that your post had no significance?  No, I did not say that I had no problem with what you thought was needed or not.

I am not going to click like or spam like on everyones post.  It was easier for me to "like" the one that was strongest to me.  This doesn't mean I dislike everyone elses post.

People have there own thoughts and beliefs.  I am not going to force you or anyone to agree with me or force you to agree with someone else, you are your own person we all think differently.

Edited by Catiine, 14 December 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Sinful01]

I think having the tiered system is pretty silly the way it is implemented in GW2.  You really can completely and totally ignore it until level 80 as drops can usually fill in almost all your slots as you play, and being slightly behind isn't the end of the world.  Then, lower level & tier items are pretty frequently on the TP for vendor price + a few pennies if you want to just buy upgrades as you go.

At 80th you can skip 1/2 of it ... even 3/4th of it if you jump right to Ascended (I skipped exotic rings with my Guardian alt, for instance, and the only reason I had Masterwork that wasn't horribly behind in level is because I have a jeweler).

That being said, if they're going to stuff in a tiered system that doesn't seem to fit fluidly (IMHO) then I'm happy they made it so skip'able.  I'd go nuts if I had to eek my way up the power scale more slowly and farm each tier of equipment.

Sadly, when I find a rare that is too low to be salvageable for an ecto, I'm usually annoyed.  I know I'll outlevel it in no time, it will be soulbound, and salvaging it won't get me anything good, so I TP them all and stick with greens.

What I do miss from other games (been playing Borderlands 2 instead of GW2 lately) is the actual randomness of loot.  If you know what your build is going to focus on in GW2, you can pretty much know exactly what type of gear you need (berserker's, cleric's, etc) and everything else is just useless to you.  The surprise of "whoa I didn't know that combo existed" isn't there as everything is already completely known and planned out.

[AKGeo]

Arquenya, on 14 December 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I think that's a bit shortsighted. As if there's no succesful games without gear difference and if all games with gear differences are neccessarily "relevant". Gear stats is just an incentive to do things; they give players a goal and sense of progression. Which doesn't mean it's the only way nor that games can't do without.

Agree, but GW2 has such a grandiose scale in mind that it's tripped over itself quite a bit, so the gear tiering is helpful in keeping some, maybe most, people on the hook while they take the time to iron out the kinks and fill in the gaps. I just hope they don't see it as more than a band-aid and completely give up on content that has little to do with having a specific set of armor.

[fatrodmc]

I actually miss the weapon requirement from GW1.

Because a low req item of any colour meant it was still valuable, like a blue 8/16 shield.

Now once you reach lvl 80 everything below rare is worthless, and rares are only good for a salvage...