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Magic Find on gear - a problem


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#1 jirayasan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:49 AM

Magic Find on runes are really bad, people could go with damage runes, tank runes or support runes but instead they go magic find runes. There changes ArenaNet can make to stop it.

- Jewelry Runes - Can be put on necklaces, rings, backs, accessory. 2 ring slots, 1 necklace,1 back and 2 accessory. That's 6 jewelry slots = 1 full rune.

- Food and drinks - Can be made by Chefs. This is already ingame.

Please make Magic Find for jewelry and food only.

#2 Dosearius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

Wait....you don't like that OTHER players choose to run MF gear and want Anet to make a change that would allow players to run both MF gear AND damage/support gear at the same time....


just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  It's a choice, nobody is forced to run MF gear, but it IS their choice, certainly not yours.

#3 jirayasan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:50 PM

People with MF gear ruins the effectiveness of a group. A character specced with runes for their build will perform much better. If they would remove magic find entirely people would whine and the time they spent to get the runes would be in vain. We already got food which gives you magic find, if they add magic find runes for jewelry they can have it all and no one can ruin the effectiveness of a group by using MF gear only.

What's wrong with having your cake and eating it? isn't that what you're supposed to do.

#4 raspberry jam

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

IMO MF runes are a blight, not because stupid people use them (stupid people gonna be stupid no matter what you do), but simply because they encourage you to go for rewards instead of wearing good stats. Adding more runes or food and whatever just means that people will stack MF more and more, though, doesn't it?

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

What's wrong with having your cake and eating it? isn't that what you're supposed to do.
5 star reply

#5 Venereus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:05 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

People with MF gear ruins the effectiveness of a group.
This is where you're wrong. Players geared for Magic Find can potentially lower the group's effectiveness, but that's not always the case. Different groups can perform equally with or without Magic Find players, since there are many variables involved, player skill being paramount. You can go on your Magic Find witch hunt all you want, but bad players will always be your real problem.

#6 Dosearius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

just do what all mmo elitists do...refuse people that don't spec the way you want them to.  You just want Anet to make that easier for you by taking away that option.

And if I'm reading the OP's post correctly it would not lead to further stacking of MF because MF would ONLY be available on food or jewelery, not armor.

Edited by Dosearius, 13 December 2012 - 02:52 PM.


#7 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:00 PM

The only times where Magic Find gear has been an issue for me is on the rare occasion that I PUG for a dungeon, I get all-MF people who can't contribute to the group at all due to their own idiocy, not due to their gear deficiency.

Magic Find is a design problem either way. It should only be available on short-term buffs like Food and Guild Banners - not as a statistic on Gear.

View PostDosearius, on 13 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Wait....you don't like that OTHER players choose to run MF gear and want Anet to make a change that would allow players to run both MF gear AND damage/support gear at the same time....


just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  It's a choice, nobody is forced to run MF gear, but it IS their choice, certainly not yours.
If MMO Elitism is what you think of when you see people getting denied from groups because they wear all Magic Find, you may want to adjust the logic (or lack of) that you use to come to conclusions.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 03:03 PM.


#8 Coren

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:06 PM

A fully runed MF user will less useful than a full runed damage/support user. Unless the idea is to split the rares and uniques among the team at the end, you can't argue with combat numbers.

#9 jirayasan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

View PostDosearius, on 13 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

just do what all mmo elitists do...refuse people that don't spec the way you want them to.  You just want Anet to make that easier for you by taking away that option.

And if I'm reading the OP's post correctly it would not lead to further stacking of MF because MF would ONLY be available on food or jewelery, not armor.

Or ArenaNet removes MF runes from armour and only make them for jewelry + mf on food.

Then you can specc damage, support or tank on your armour and still have mf on jewelry and food.

#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:30 PM

People who load on MF in groups, in a nutshell

Posted Image
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#11 matsif

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:32 PM

View PostCoren, on 13 December 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

A fully runed MF user will less useful than a full runed damage/support user. Unless the idea is to split the rares and uniques among the team at the end, you can't argue with combat numbers.

this.  Running full MF in a group is only hurting the group overall.

I'm also in the "MF is a horrible mechanic" school of thought.  I could understand some consumables and maybe the guild banner having an effect, but putting it in insignias and runes and even jewels is lame.  Thats 6 pieces of jewelry, armor, runes that could all have been spec'd to help you do more damage or have better survivability to help your group more or do your solo content easier.

#12 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:43 PM

While I agree it may have been a better design to just get MF from food or boosters (why make an exception for jewelry?) I think as is I have no problem with it.

In WvW a player willing to do something useful and coordinate with others is more important than someone with awesome gear who steals supplies from towers builds unneeded siege etc.  Now if your purpose is to roam and gank MF is wasteful.  Roam and gank is fine for lots of reasons but commit to it IMHO.

In PvE anything will work (though efficiency is altered).  Any build any gear any profession.  It is the willing coordination of the players that matters most however; gear choices aren't that important.

#13 Alleji

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

- Jewelry Runes - Can be put on necklaces, rings, backs, accessory. 2 ring slots, 1 necklace,1 back and 2 accessory. That's 6 jewelry slots = 1 full rune.
Remove magic find runes from gear but add them to jewelry? So that way instead of losing stats on gear, we lose stats on jewelry? How does this fix anything? And why pick on this particular piece of magic find instead of ALL gear?

View PostVenereus, on 13 December 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Players geared for Magic Find can potentially lower the group's effectiveness, but that's not always the case. Different groups can perform equally with or without Magic Find players, since there are many variables involved, player skill being paramount. You can go on your Magic Find witch hunt all you want, but bad players will always be your real problem.
False. It's always the case. You may perform better in MF gear than a bad player in DPS gear, but you in DPS gear will do better than you in MF gear. Likewise for a bad player in DPS gear vs same bad player in MF gear. In every single case a player chooses to use MF gear he lowers the effectiveness of the group. In certain situations, it may not be much worse, but it's still worse.

What would solve the problem is the ability to inspect people's gear... but even then someone could show you a real set at the start and switch it later on for an identical-looking set. What are you gonna do, kick him? Oops, can't kick people mid-run.

Edited by Alleji, 13 December 2012 - 03:49 PM.


#14 Darius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

You guys are forgetting the people that like to farm Events in groups or Regular Gameplay. It helps me for example to get $$$$$ to buy gear and other things.
I can understand that people that do Dungeons and have MF gear on are bad for the team,
which is why I have a fully runed over 100% MF Set with MF focus accessories etc.  
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT I also keep regular damage gear for Dungeons.

SO WHY NOT BOTH , GUYS?

Frankly, I think OP is just butthurt :P and wants everything his way.
If you guys want to do Dungeons then ask guildies and friends to do it with you. That way you know that they are not being MF Noobs.

If you don't have friends then that's just sad and you should probably make some.
I can be your friend =D  , k.

Edited by Darius, 13 December 2012 - 03:49 PM.


#15 Cronos988

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:52 PM

It seems the solution to this problem would be some kind of communication between the players, like a chat or something. Treating them as human beings might help ;).

#16 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:00 PM

View PostDarius, on 13 December 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

You guys are forgetting the people that like to farm Events in groups or Regular Gameplay. It helps me for example to get $$$$$ to buy gear and other things.
I can understand that people that do Dungeons and have MF gear on are bad for the team,
which is why I have a fully runed over 100% MF Set with MF focus accessories etc.  
BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT I also keep regular damage gear for Dungeons.

SO WHY NOT BOTH , GUYS?

Frankly, I think OP is just butthurt :P and wants everything his way.
If you guys want to do Dungeons then ask guildies and friends to do it with you. That way you know that they are not being MF Noobs.

If you don't have friends then that's just sad and you should probably make some.
I can be your friend =D  , k.
You're being incredibly dense by thinking about it the way you are.

If they removed Magic Find from equipment and kept it only for Food and Banners, they could adjust drop rates to make it the same as if you had the magic find on your gear.

Magic Find being an equipment-stat is more damaging to the game than it is beneficial - but it supports the push ANet is doing to make players spend $ on the Gem Store to get gold to get the "prestige" gear; so the shitty design is -by- design.
Very unfortunate, really.

I understand that critical thinking skills aren't common, but come on.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 04:01 PM.


#17 Venereus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostAlleji, on 13 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Remove magic find runes from gear but add them to jewelry? So that way instead of losing stats on gear, we lose stats on jewelry? How does this fix anything? And why pick on this particular piece of magic find instead of ALL gear?

False. It's always the case. You may perform better in MF gear than a bad player in DPS gear, but you in DPS gear will do better than you in MF gear. Likewise for a bad player in DPS gear vs same bad player in MF gear. In every single case a player chooses to use MF gear he lowers the effectiveness of the group. In certain situations, it may not be much worse, but it's still worse.

What would solve the problem is the ability to inspect people's gear... but even then someone could show you a real set at the start and switch it later on for an identical-looking set. What are you gonna do, kick him? Oops, can't kick people mid-run.
I know that, I mean that the end result will be the same. There's no point in worrying about a 5% effectiveness increase if at the end of the day you still finish the goal (i.e. a dungeon run) in roughly the same time. Sure, the math says it's a problem, but the jobs gets done so why bitch about it?

#18 Dosearius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

If MMO Elitism is what you think of when you see people getting denied from groups because they wear all Magic Find, you may want to adjust the logic (or lack of) that you use to come to conclusions.

Meh, you are correct, I was being a bit harsh there, but elitism will rear its ugly head in this game as it does in every other MMO, just saying, this is potentially where it will begin.  The fact that we cannot 'see/inspect' each others gear/builds makes it all a moot point however as Alleji pointed out as it would be real easy for people to get around this with identical looking gear that is equipped with a different rune set.  (And you know damn well that some people will take advantage of that as long as we cannot inspect gear).

#19 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

View PostDosearius, on 13 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Meh, you are correct, I was being a bit harsh there, but elitism will rear its ugly head in this game as it does in every other MMO, just saying, this is potentially where it will begin.  The fact that we cannot 'see/inspect' each others gear/builds makes it all a moot point however as Alleji pointed out as it would be real easy for people to get around this with identical looking gear that is equipped with a different rune set.  (And you know damn well that some people will take advantage of that as long as we cannot inspect gear).

Not at all.
Asking that nobody be wearing all-Magic Find on their gear if actually challenging content does get released is far from a starting point of elitism. It's irrelevant to build - if Magic Find remains in the game in its current rendition, it's not at all elitist to ask that nobody wear it when PUGing a dungeon.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 04:28 PM.


#20 jirayasan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostAlleji, on 13 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Remove magic find runes from gear but add them to jewelry? So that way instead of losing stats on gear, we lose stats on jewelry? How does this fix anything? And why pick on this particular piece of magic find instead of ALL gear?


You can't use runes on jewelry so how would you lose stats if you could use runes on jewelry? mf runes only.

#21 EphraimGlass

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

What's wrong with having your cake and eating it? isn't that what you're supposed to do.

You can't do both.  If you eat it, you no longer have it.  It's gone.  Eaten.  A more sensible but less poetic way of saying it might be, "You want to save your money and spend it too."

#22 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostVenereus, on 13 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I know that, I mean that the end result will be the same. There's no point in worrying about a 5% effectiveness increase if at the end of the day you still finish the goal (i.e. a dungeon run) in roughly the same time. Sure, the math says it's a problem, but the jobs gets done so why bitch about it?

I agree with you.  With the attitude some of these people are taking, they'd never be allowed in my guild.  If you can't do a dungeon because someone has  MF gear then there is something wrong with you.  I am the guild leader, wear MF and crit and we do a hell of a lot of damage no matter where we go.  It is all about knowing what you are doing.  Of course, we don't pug.  We guild only but I'd never check a pug's gear.  That's elitism and rude.

#23 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 13 December 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

I agree with you.  With the attitude some of these people are taking, they'd never be allowed in my guild.  If you can't do a dungeon because someone has  MF gear then there is something wrong with you.  I am the guild leader, wear MF and crit and we do a hell of a lot of damage no matter where we go.  It is all about knowing what you are doing.  Of course, we don't pug.  We guild only but I'd never check a pug's gear.  That's elitism and rude.
I'm sure the fact that content is so easy that I could do it with nothing but weapons equipped has nothing to do with it.
If content comes out that requires people to actually play well, it's not only justified - it'd be required to know that your groupmates are traited and geared right for the content.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 05:17 PM.


#24 Jobuu

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

they could fix this by making MF another layer of equipment enchantment so you can add it to everything and lower the overall drop rate to even it back out again since everyone will have full MF gear LOL

#25 Enscheff

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

If it bothers you that much just force people you group with to link their gear before you let them join for hard content.

If you are just grinding fractal dailies....does it really matter?

#26 Alleji

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

You can't use runes on jewelry so how would you lose stats if you could use runes on jewelry? mf runes only.
You would be replacing the jewels you have in the upgrade slots.

#27 AKGeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

You're being incredibly dense by thinking about it the way you are.

Interesting that you say this...

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Magic Find being an equipment-stat is more damaging to the game than it is beneficial - but it supports the push ANet is doing to make players spend $ on the Gem Store to get gold to get the "prestige" gear; so the shitty design is -by- design.
Very unfortunate, really.


Wait.....wait a second here......

Why is running gear that gives a higher chance at a more valuable drop supporting a push to buying gold with real money? If you can get a higher in-game profit-per-hour figure, that means it's less likely for the player to require real currency to achieve their goals.

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm sure the fact that content is so easy that I could do it with nothing but weapons equipped has nothing to do with it.
If content comes out that requires people to actually play well, it's not only justified - it'd be required to know that your groupmates are traited and geared right for the content.

Wow, you're just full of it today, aren't you? You're equating gear stats to "playing well". Stats don't matter nearly enough as player knowledge of the content and skill in their own roles. I myself notice very little difference in damage dealt and time spent completing content between my MF gear and my berserker's DPS gear (thief). I get the same amount of crits, I get very similar levels of damage. I even take the same amount of damage, even though my MF gear is rare vs my exotic dps gear. The reason for that is because I'm a thief...I already get one-shot downed by most dungeon mobs. So I make it so I don't get hit. That's player skill, and no amount of gear stats can replace simply NOT GETTING HIT by being able to evade and position.

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I understand that critical thinking skills aren't common, but come on.

Might want to work on your own before getting on someone else about theirs, cochise.

I run my MF gear with pugs in dungeons. Better drops throughout makes up for poorly organized groups who wipe, and it costs less to repair. A thief can't carry a team against champion bosses, so I do what I have to do to recoup costs inherent in going with pugs in dungeons. But when I'm speed-clearing dungeons with my guild (when enough are online to do anything), I'm going for the tokens at the end, the chests, and the silver drops from the various mini bosses throughout, None of which are affected by MF. But when I'm pugging, we're typically killing everything, and that just increases my chance of cores/lodestones, rares for ectos, and exotics. I have no qualms about looking out for #1 in these cases.

Edited by AKGeo, 13 December 2012 - 06:32 PM.


#28 jirayasan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:43 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 13 December 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

I agree with you.  With the attitude some of these people are taking, they'd never be allowed in my guild.  If you can't do a dungeon because someone has  MF gear then there is something wrong with you.  I am the guild leader, wear MF and crit and we do a hell of a lot of damage no matter where we go.  It is all about knowing what you are doing.  Of course, we don't pug.  We guild only but I'd never check a pug's gear.  That's elitism and rude.

The problem is that ArenaNet did a big mistake for even doing MF runes on armor. Magic Find should be seperate from runes and not replace them. You'd be way more effective with runes for your role. There are pretty sick superior runes that can boost your damage, healing or tanking.

#29 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

Spoiler
On almost all of those quotes, the topic was lost on you.

The person I initially quoted didn't understand what was even being argued, in the thread. They were saying "I have another set of gear for dungeons, MF is fine :P"
Which is stupid, because the topic is how bad MF is, as a stat.

You got uppity at me without understanding the topic at hand. That's silly.

Magic Find, and why it exists, and is bad:
Droprates are adjusted based on MF values. If MF didn't exist, everything would drop at the rate that full MF would grant. The fact that MF is a stat, and that MF gear don't give as much combat stats (meaning harder to do Orr in for inexperienced players[which are the majority]) means the market isn't as good for gatherers as it could be. Sure, the supply would be higher if nobody had to deal with nerfing themselves in combat potential and wearing MF gear and got full drop % - but more people would be buying those things because it's more feasible for the average player to amass enough gold to have purchasing power to do so.
That is why Magic Find exists.
To push players to the Gem Store to get quick gold, rather than farm low droprate trade-goods for gold.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 06:58 PM.


#30 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 13 December 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

The problem is that ArenaNet did a big mistake for even doing MF runes on armor. Magic Find should be seperate from runes and not replace them. You'd be way more effective with runes for your role. There are pretty sick superior runes that can boost your damage, healing or tanking.

There is no tanking or healing in this game.  This is not WOW.  People are still thinking in terms of WOW.  That is not this game.  MF does not make me any less potent at what I do since I have other traits and skills that make me potent.

Edited by sevalaricgirl, 13 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.





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