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Magic Find on gear - a problem


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#61 madmaxII

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

wiki is players making assumptions.
As I said, I always get better chest drops when using MF. same as i always get rare dyes and better stuff from the forge

You didn't even check the wiki, right? They have an official response linked there...

Why would you ask for a source when you are too lazy to even check it when someone provides it?

#62 Bloodtau

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

View PostmadmaxII, on 15 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

You didn't even check the wiki, right? They have an official response linked there...

Why would you ask for a source when you are too lazy to even check it when someone provides it?

Didn't ask for a source.

#63 madmaxII

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:45 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Didn't ask for a source.

View PostBloodtau, on 14 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

When I have no MF I pretty much always get greens
When I do have MF i always get at least one rare.
Your move.

:surprised:

#64 Bloodtau

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:46 AM

View PostmadmaxII, on 15 December 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

:surprised:

In what world does that say "give me a source"

#65 madmaxII

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

In what world does that say "give me a source"

What other possibility do I have to verify or debunk your assumptions? "Your move" means it's my turn to do so, doesn't it?
Of course I could answer that I feel like I get the same amount of rare items with or without MF. Or I could make a video. But I just picked the easiest and fastest to proof myself right and you wrong. I was just a little surprised that you didn't even bother to have a look at it.

(by the way, sorry for derailing this thread)

#66 Gerroh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 14 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

When I have no MF I pretty much always get greens
When I do have MF i always get at least one rare.
Your move.

There are a lot of things that irritate the shit out of me in the world.
People who abuse animals, people who tell me I can't eat meat, people who tell me I am a contradiction and refuse to listen before I even have time to explain my complex(yet entirely logical) opinions.
But another thing that irritates the shit out of me is when people fail to understand how probability works, and how their anecdotal evidence IS F'ing WORTHLES if they do not bother to test on a scale of hundreds or even thousands of attempts and keep proper records of those attempts.
And this failure to understand how probability works is like the people who think they are more likely to win the lottery now because they've been playing for awhile, or because their numbers were close last time, or whatever other hocus-pocus the mathematically-inept can come up with.

Bloodtau(and anyone else for that matter), to put it simply, what you're saying is completely worthless if you don't provide evidence. How's that for a "move"?
Not good enough? Here's my anecdotal evidence: I get worse drops when I have MF on, thus, MF actually produces worse drops.



Now, onto the topic at hand:
I'm wearing 5 pirate and 1 noble rune on my nec atm, mostly for the reason that I just didn't really know which runes to put on at the time, and so I went with something generic. I have +60% magic find, and despite my investment into it, I would like permanent sources of magic find(Any magic find on equipment) removed from the game.
Why? Because as it was put quite brilliantly before in another thread: it gives increased rewards for less contribution.
Yes, skill is the dealbreaker when there's a large skill gap, but when there isn't it comes down to people with magic find are contributing less and gaining more, and while it's not a terribly huge difference, it's the principle of this that is awful.
GW2's loot system is designed to make sure that you get credit if you contribute, and you only get credit if you contribute significantly. Everyone gets approximately the same drops, everyone who contributes gets a reward scaling to how much they contributed, and magic find slaps all of that in the face.
It's the same reason we don't have magic find trait lines, or traits related to drops.

#67 Bloodtau

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM

View PostGerroh, on 15 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:


There are a lot of things that irritate the shit out of me in the world.
People who abuse animals, people who tell me I can't eat meat, people who tell me I am a contradiction and refuse to listen before I even have time to explain my complex(yet entirely logical) opinions.
But another thing that irritates the shit out of me is when people fail to understand how probability works, and how their anecdotal evidence IS F'ing WORTHLES if they do not bother to test on a scale of hundreds or even thousands of attempts and keep proper records of those attempts.
And this failure to understand how probability works is like the people who think they are more likely to win the lottery now because they've been playing for awhile, or because their numbers were close last time, or whatever other hocus-pocus the mathematically-inept can come up with.

Bloodtau(and anyone else for that matter), to put it simply, what you're saying is completely worthless if you don't provide evidence. How's that for a "move"?
Not good enough? Here's my anecdotal evidence: I get worse drops when I have MF on, thus, MF actually produces worse drops.



Now, onto the topic at hand:
I'm wearing 5 pirate and 1 noble rune on my nec atm, mostly for the reason that I just didn't really know which runes to put on at the time, and so I went with something generic. I have +60% magic find, and despite my investment into it, I would like permanent sources of magic find(Any magic find on equipment) removed from the game.
Why? Because as it was put quite brilliantly before in another thread: it gives increased rewards for less contribution.
Yes, skill is the dealbreaker when there's a large skill gap, but when there isn't it comes down to people with magic find are contributing less and gaining more, and while it's not a terribly huge difference, it's the principle of this that is awful.
GW2's loot system is designed to make sure that you get credit if you contribute, and you only get credit if you contribute significantly. Everyone gets approximately the same drops, everyone who contributes gets a reward scaling to how much they contributed, and magic find slaps all of that in the face.
It's the same reason we don't have magic find trait lines, or traits related to drops.


Nice post. MF still increases chests though.

#68 madmaxII

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:43 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Nice post. MF still increases chests though.

Go to http://wiki.guildwars2.com, search for MF or magic find and read note #2.

Edit: And please just do it this time.

Edited by madmaxII, 15 December 2012 - 03:47 AM.


#69 Darkobra

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Nice post. MF still increases chests though.

It really doesn't. It's nice that you got lucky but your gear played no part in it. Your luck did. Also the fact that chest rewards have actually been boosted, you're kinda working with the placebo here.

#70 Soki

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:46 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Nice post. MF still increases chests though.
And the winner for how wrong a person can be:
BLOODTAU!
Give yourself a hand! Not only are you WRONG; but you consider yourself RIGHT without offering evidence to the contrary!
Spoiler

Edited by Soki, 15 December 2012 - 04:47 AM.


#71 Bloodtau

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

View PostSoki, on 15 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

And the winner for how wrong a person can be:
BLOODTAU!
Give yourself a hand! Not only are you WRONG; but you consider yourself RIGHT without offering evidence to the contrary!
Spoiler

tell that to my rares D=

#72 Gerroh

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:55 AM

Well, I'm convinced he's trolling at this point. I know it's possible for people to be that stupid, but I consider it more likely that he's just trying to be a douchebag.

#73 AKGeo

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:50 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

tell that to my rares D=

You mean your rares, the same as the rares I've been getting during guild dungeon runs on my non-MF berserker's gear, vs the greens and blues I typically get during pug runs with MF gear on?

Those rares?

I actually made it a point the other day to my guild to express my belief that MF gear actually adversely effects chest results...because i've been doing repeated dungeon runs on my warrior and mesmer, both of whom don't have a single percent of magic find gear, and I've seen quite a lot more gold letters coming out of chests than even my thief, with either set.

Edited by AKGeo, 15 December 2012 - 06:57 AM.


#74 Serris

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

the difference between MF and no MF is who it benefits. good stats benefit the party, MF benefits me.
when i'm running with a bunch of people i don't know or care about, i'm grabbing MF.

#75 Alleji

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostSoki, on 15 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

And the winner for making people nerdrage:
BLOODTAU!
Fixed that for you!

#76 Soki

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostAlleji, on 15 December 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Fixed that for you!
It's less nerdrage; more apathy that someone could be so hardheaded.

#77 Alleji

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

View PostSoki, on 15 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

It's less nerdrage; more apathy that someone could be so hardheaded.
He's not hardheaded, he's quite obviously trolling :P

#78 sty0pa

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostSerris, on 15 December 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

the difference between MF and no MF is who it benefits. good stats benefit the party, MF benefits me.
when i'm running with a bunch of people i don't know or care about, i'm grabbing MF.

Completely logical (and predictable).
All the more reason it's strange that ANet ("we're about community!") implemented such a selfishness-inducing feature.

#79 Trei

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

It is possible that it was introduced simply to make grinders and farmers choose between kill speed efficiency and loot quality.

#80 Lafiele

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:27 AM

People like to blame magic find but it's really bad players which ruin the effectiveness of a group (communication, listening, taking advices, I've had people yell at me and refuse to do it just because I was suggesting a skill they can use during particular fights). I have no issue if people want to run MF since most of the dungeons are easy enough to do so anyways.

#81 Millimidget

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostTrei, on 15 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

It is possible that it was introduced simply to make grinders and farmers choose between kill speed efficiency and loot quality.
Or to inflate farming returns so that anet can nerf any potentially lucrative farming sites.

#82 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:47 AM

View PostAKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

And I'm going to compare GW2 to GW1 right now. GW1 had the same number of tiers for gear: white, blue, purple, yellow. green vs white, blue, green, yellow, orange. Legendary doesn't count as it's a new mechanic.

Since you keep bringing this up, I'll point out it's incorrect.
In GW2 colour means power. In GW1, it only sometimes means power.
Greens in GW1 were a sub-category of rares. They were ALWAYS of equal power as rares, they just had pre-set stats. In GW2, the best greens are always worse than the best rares.
Not only that, in GW1, blues could be equal power as rares (collector's gear). In GW2, they can't be.

The only reason why legendaries would not count is because they are currently of equal power as exotics (which means, a sub-category of exotics) and they will be of equal power to ascended gear, once it gets released (BUT ascended gear WILL count, with legendaries being a sub-category of that tier).


So no, GW1 does not have the same number of tiers as GW2.

#83 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Nice post. MF still increases chests though.
Hey bro, don't forget to put this one on your door near your computer
Posted Image

Works as hell opening a chest, touch it before push the button F and then open it Posted Image

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 16 December 2012 - 11:24 AM.


#84 Arquenya

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostGerroh, on 15 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

it comes down to people with magic find are contributing less and gaining more, and while it's not a terribly huge difference, it's the principle of this that is awful.
+1

Reason enough to remove it from the game asap.

#85 Brizna

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

The problem whit MF isn't that you can chose between having an easier time with real fighting runes or a harder one with MF gear but better loot, the problem is people who run with them put on eveyone else the drawbacks of them butwith no beneffit, they are part of your team if they are less competitive so is your team...

The change MF runes need isn't to remove or limit them but to average the MF bonus of the full party and then applying the average to everyone in the party. As things stand yeah, MF runers can honestly be called leechers, they make things harder for everyone on their team for their sole proffit.

Edit: Well probably consumables should be added only and fully to the person who uses them.

Edited by Brizna, 17 December 2012 - 03:20 PM.


#86 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:10 PM

View Poststy0pa, on 14 December 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:


I could be wrong, but
a) you can't switch gear during combat and
B) loot is determined on the point of enemy death, and 'resides' in the corpse (or chest) until picked.

I didn't think you COULD wear one set of gear, and then swap to MF just for looting/opening chests?

people say that, but i found for myself, if i wear my good gear, i get crap from chest/already dead, but when i change to my magic find gear, i get good stuff, i could be wrong, but yeah, its just what i have personally found to be the case!!

#87 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

View PostBrizna, on 17 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

The problem whit MF isn't that you can chose between having an easier time with real fighting runes or a harder one with MF gear but better loot, the problem is people who run with them put on eveyone else the drawbacks of them butwith no beneffit, they are part of your team if they are less competitive so is your team...

The change MF runes need isn't to remove or limit them but to average the MF bonus of the full party and then applying the average to everyone in the party. As things stand yeah, MF runers can honestly be called leechers, they make things harder for everyone on their team for their sole proffit.

Edit: Well probably consumables should be added only and fully to the person who uses them.

Don't agree with you at all.  I our main tankish guy has magic find accessories and he's a beast.  So..um..just no.

#88 Darkobra

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 18 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Don't agree with you at all.  I our main tankish guy has magic find accessories and he's a beast.  So..um..just no.

Just accessories? So he's not got magic find armour with magic find runes and magic find on kill sigils and magic find jewellery and generally just gets all the rewards for none of the work?

#89 Scooty

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

Pfft... what's this drivel.. none of the work?  You actually have to kill the mobs to get the drops.

It would also depend heavily on the individual and what scenario they gear for.

No offense, but a guy in magic find gear that runs around in DE's/dungeons getting people back on their feet is responsible for more DPS than the guy who tunnels the dragon in full berserkers.

This game has less to do about gear and more to do about how you play.  It's not just about the DPS meter.

you do realize that explorer's gear (which is MF) has power and precision?  You're just giving up the increased crit damage from the berserker set, and slightly less power/precision.  Unless you are relying on a lot of condition damage (which doesn't work on some mobs) I don't see the issue as that big (so you crit for less... life goes on)

The only place it might make a difference would be dungeons, but if they're good enough to stay on their feet and everyone can move through the dungeon reasonably, then who cares?  If they start to die a lot, then I'd expect them to swap gear to increase their ability to survive or increase damage (or just smarten up).

If they're good enough to use it in dungeons, then they should get the rewards for having that level of skill, but there are drawbacks for using it too.

Pretty sure every mob doesn't drop for every person.  Someone that can plow through the mobs 1-2 shotting them is going to get more items (granted less quality, but definitely more stuff... so it's going to balance out...)

I see MF gear as less a problem, than outdated Wow-centric gear related thinking in terms of  gameplay and the rampant self entitlement/elitism that made these games unpleasant to play.  Let's hope GW2 evolves beyond such things.

next thing you know PVP gear will be poo-poo'd because it does less DPS.  I'm just waiting for someone to make a DPS meter for this game and ruin it.

#90 WrathfulForce

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

To me it's not about that magic find focused gear has such a big impact on how well the group works in dungeons, it's the base idea of a person getting rewarded for being selfish. Let's face it, even though magic find gear focused gear (explorer stats, pirate runes etc.) isn't super terrible (as it does still give other stats besides the magic find) it is nowhere near as good as the optimal gear would be.

The obvious solution to me would be to nullify magic find effect from gear in dungeon areas, making only food and guild buffs work. This'd promote using the so called optimal gear in dungeons as you'd help everyone in the group that way. You could still use the magic find gear but it wouldn't give you any benefit in dungeons.

Other option would be to make magic find be shared between party members somehow. This way you wouldn't be as effective as you could be with the optimal gear but you wouldn't be considered being too selfish of a person as you'd bring some magic find joy to your party members as well.

In any case, I seriously hope this gets fixed at some point. Otherwise there's without a doubt going to be some sort of checks for magic find gear and so on which I doubt many would like.

Lastly, I personally really don't go hunting for magic find geared players shouting "are you wearing magic find armor! Tell me!" but I am seriously annoyed if a person acts proud and is saying how he is wearing 100% full magic find gear in fractals (rather high level even) and keeps posting his awesome loot drops over and over again. That kind of behaviour I despise. If you are going to be selfish, like a lot of people are, at least keep the knowledge to yourself.




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