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Effort-to-reward ratio


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#1 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

A major problem with GW2's Dynamic Event system is that there are a ton of events people just ~don't do~.
Every event in a given level tier gives the same Experience, Karma, and silver - no matter how much time it takes to complete.

Champion events are an obvious example - they are generally uninteresting scaled-up normal mobs that have more health and damage on their abilities (the same kinds the normal mobs do). These are generally labelled as Group Events.



I have an example to show, in the new area (meaning they had time to see which types of events were well-done, and which were skipped in the original areas - but they made this one like this anyway).
It has you kill 2 Veteran Karkas within a camp infested with smaller ones - and is not labelled as a Group Event.

(Video playing at 2x original speed)
It wasn't too challenging, but it took a long time; and gave the same reward as the event where you give the NPC 10 Karka Eggs acquired from interacting with nests.



This amount of time investment/challenge is not justified. It is the reason nobody goes out in the world, after FotM was released.
Is it really that hard for ANet to add neat little things like tokens from hard events, so that over time you can buy a weapon or armor set with a neat skin after doing them enough?

#2 Heart Collector

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

Whilst I'm not a reward driven player and gladly do challenging or grandiose events just for the sake of doing them, it is a bit deflating to do an awesomely epic dynamic event and get nothing to show for it. E.g. the Nageling Giant in Diessa Plateau.

#3 Briar

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

I agree; but I actually think that the problem is far worse than you think it is.

1) Play the game by wandering the landscape... killing everything you see, picking up all resource nodes and doing all events come across for a few hours: ~1g and a small amount of karma - more if you are lucky

2) Do FotM for a few hours: ~6g a moderate amount of Karma (drops of liquid karma) and tokens that you can use to buy yourself armor to save yourself even more money - armor that just happens to be better than anything you could get with scenario 1... oh and 20 slot bags

Then wonder why no one wants to do option 1


Edit: what I think I am trying to say is that doing anything other than FotM or playing the TP gives pathetic rewards and if you do not find it fun is thus a waste of time

Edited by Briar, 13 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.


#4 Mura

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

I've been working on world completion, and I've really enjoyed it.  I spend time doing the dynamic events, and sticking around listening to the NPC's dialogs, and what happens next.  I don't do that every time, but they are really entertaining.  When I run into a champion, I almost always find someone to help me kill it, and it's been fun.  I see what you mean about the rewards being sub-par, and maybe I am wasting my time, but I have been having a good time.

Now, once I am 80 and have world completion, I'll probably be in fotm or farming cursed shore a lot myself.  I have a goal in mind, but I am enjoying the journey.

#5 Venereus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:35 PM

I don't get it, do you play for fun or for rewards? Some people will find that event fun to do and do it anyway. If you don't like it don't do it. If you don't like the reward/time ratio then do events that you find have a satisfying reward/time ratio.

#6 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

View PostVenereus, on 13 December 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I don't get it, do you play for fun or for rewards? Some people will find that event fun to do and do it anyway. If you don't like it don't do it. If you don't like the reward/time ratio then do events that you find have a satisfying reward/time ratio.
Well, since events are long and easy AND give a bad reward, I suppose I'm playing for good gameplay that is sold short by both a bad creature/event design, and bad reward-for-effort design.

FotM bosses are better - but the fact that those are FotM-only kinda kills it for me.

"Fun" is subjective. I personally don't find the way event creatures aside from Dragon bosses are designed, in the open world, fun.. They're all just scaled-up normal mobs that do more damage and have a stupid amount of health.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 02:41 PM.


#7 B3aT

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

Why do you people say that fun shouldn't be rewarded ?
What about people that doesn't know the reward before he finish his cool and fun event, after he struggle for 1h he is poorer then before :(

Exploring is the most nerfed "profession" in GW2, doing dungeons instead of 100% world is 10000 times more rewarding.

Still at this subject, is the only game I know where killing veterans and champions doesn't worth the time, last 4 champions I beat dropped less items (actually 0 items, just trophies) then the regular mobs around them.

#8 matsif

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

the entirety of the reward ratios in this game are screwy.  Take the dragon events for example.  I've can't even say how many times I've killed just the Claw of Jormag, which is supposed to be a huge end-game event that happens after long intervals, and gotten nothing but blues from the chest.  Same at Tequatl, same at Shatterer.  I rarely even see green from the chests (other than worthless crests), and maybe have gotten 6 rares all time out of the chests.  The reward of a bunch of absolutely worthless blue weapons does not match the scale of the event.  Killing what is essentially the 2nd in command of the major enemy of the game I would think warrants some sort of reward better than some blue spears and tridents, and if I'm lucky a jewel.

#9 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

View Postmatsif, on 13 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

the entirety of the reward ratios in this game are screwy.  Take the dragon events for example.  I've can't even say how many times I've killed just the Claw of Jormag, which is supposed to be a huge end-game event that happens after long intervals, and gotten nothing but blues from the chest.  Same at Tequatl, same at Shatterer.  I rarely even see green from the chests (other than worthless crests), and maybe have gotten 6 rares all time out of the chests.  The reward of a bunch of absolutely worthless blue weapons does not match the scale of the event.  Killing what is essentially the 2nd in command of the major enemy of the game I would think warrants some sort of reward better than some blue spears and tridents, and if I'm lucky a jewel.
Some sort of token where, after getting a certain amount, you can buy a weapon themed to the boss.
While it's grindy, it's certainly better than nothing - and it bandaids a bad system.
Of course, moving forward, they can design things better, with mistakes of the past in mind.
...Which is why the event I posted as an example frustrates me. It's one of the stupidly-long ones that nobody does, and it was released AFTER the initial launch.

#10 DuskWolf

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

It's not just that, it's that there's no risk to it, there's no thrill at all.

If you're a lower level, something with higher numbers will one-shot you. See that lynx? It has bigger numbers than you, it doesn't care that you've defeated Barradin's ghost. This basically means that that lynx could have one-shotted Barradin's ghost. Just... let that sit and percolate for a while. Let your mind swirl around the pure, undiluted ludicrousness of that.

And then, if a foe has less numbers than you do? It's insta-win. Give the game a few more expansions and the levels/gear that come with it, and you'll be taking out Giganticus Lupicus as if it were a starting zomb mob group.

There's no excitement to that. It means it's basically a ladder. If you're further up the ladder than certain mobs, you insta-win, if you're so much below, you insta-lose, and nothing about your personal skill or playing ability will change that. That's what bothers me so much. It's all a massive grind, and any rewards I do get feel meaningless and shallow because of that.

To be honest, I'd be depressed at getting fractal rewards in GW2 as I would be with raids in WoW.

"Oh hey, I threw away weeks of my life to this game that almost plays itself. Just grinding. When I could have been playing more fun things. When I could have been enjoying something more. I could have been more responsible with my time. I'll just go over there and weep in the corner."

Nothing you do means anything in GW2. This is why the rewards also feel so bad.

Edited by DuskWolf, 13 December 2012 - 04:26 PM.


#11 Venereus

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Well, since events are long and easy AND give a bad reward, I suppose I'm playing for good gameplay that is sold short by both a bad creature/event design, and bad reward-for-effort design.

FotM bosses are better - but the fact that those are FotM-only kinda kills it for me.

"Fun" is subjective. I personally don't find the way event creatures aside from Dragon bosses are designed, in the open world, fun.. They're all just scaled-up normal mobs that do more damage and have a stupid amount of health.
Ok, this is my point: fun is supposed to be the reward from playing a game. If the game isn't fun for you, don't play it. If you're playing for the rewards then you're confusing means and ends. It's as if Bilbo had asked Gandalf how much loot would Smaug drop because fighting a dragon isn't enough. If getting the rewards is your fun then you have much bigger problems than how long an event takes.

Edited by Venereus, 13 December 2012 - 04:35 PM.


#12 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostVenereus, on 13 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Ok, this is my point: fun is supposed to be the reward from playing a game. If the game isn't fun for you, don't play it. If you're playing for the rewards then you're confusing means and ends. It's as if Bilbo had asked Gandalf how much loot would Smaug drop because fighting a dragon isn't enough. If getting the rewards is your fun then you have much bigger problems than how long an event takes,
That way of thinking is flawed - let me explain why.

Ignoring the fact that most events are carbon copies of one-another, thus the fun after a few is greatly diminished, RPGs are generally about progressing your character, improving on attributes or looks, and otherwise changing your character for the better through challenges, tasks, and overcoming obstacles.

If somebody takes on a Veteran mob that takes 10x longer to kill than a normal mob of that type, and the Veteran drops something 1.3x better than the average drop of the normal mob, the time investment/challenge is not congruent with what a player would expect from undertaking a challenge like killing a Veteran mob.
That same comparison can be applied to GW2's Dynamic Events.
You see that an organized player can complete that event in 16 minutes - and it gives the same reward as an event that takes 1 minute.
How is that well-designed? How does that fit into your spectrum of "fun", in design?

It doesn't - because the "Do it for the fun of it!" argument people seem to like employing doesn't stand to reason, when you look at how the game is designed. It may be true for something like Just Cause or The Sims, but it doesn't hold up for things like The Elder Scrolls series, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Everquest, Devil May Cry series, or any other game that gives you "more" of something for doign a "harder" something.
In those games (RPGs, MMO or not) characters advance faster from more difficult to overcome challenges. It is a core part of the game.

GW2 is designed as an RPG with character leveling, skill acquisition, and gear progress for looks - but the Event and Vet/Champ/Boss mob system is not at all congruent with the rest of that design; thus why it is a poorly designed system.
Spoiler

View PostDuskWolf, on 13 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

It's not just that, it's that there's no risk to it, there's no thrill at all.

If you're a lower level, something with higher numbers will one-shot you. See that lynx? It has bigger numbers than you, it doesn't care that you've defeated Barradin's ghost. This basically means that that lynx could have one-shotted Barradin's ghost. Just... let that sit and percolate for a while. Let your mind swirl around the pure, undiluted ludicrousness of that.

And then, if a foe has less numbers than you do? It's insta-win. Give the game a few more expansions and the levels/gear that come with it, and you'll be taking out Giganticus Lupicus as if it were a starting zomb mob group.

There's no excitement to that. It means it's basically a ladder. If you're further up the ladder than certain mobs, you insta-win, if you're so much below, you insta-lose, and nothing about your personal skill or playing ability will change that. That's what bothers me so much. It's all a massive grind, and any rewards I do get feel meaningless and shallow because of that.

To be honest, I'd be depressed at getting fractal rewards in GW2 as I would be with raids in WoW.

"Oh hey, I threw away weeks of my life to this game that almost plays itself. Just grinding. When I could have been playing more fun things. When I could have been enjoying something more. I could have been more responsible with my time. I'll just go over there and weep in the corner."

Nothing you do means anything in GW2. This is why the rewards also feel so bad.
Not...Really. That's an entirely different conversation.
GW2 handles power-creep like that pretty well with downscaling; thoughif ANet were truly going for "Do what looks fun to you" approach, they'd make upscaling affect the world - rather than just WvW. The fact that they don't do that lends more leverage behind my prior argument for time/reward ratio.

Edited by Soki, 13 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.


#13 EphraimGlass

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

If somebody takes on a Veteran mob that takes 10x longer to kill than a normal mob of that type, and the Veteran drops something 1.3x better than the average drop of the normal mob, the time investment/challenge is not congruent with what a player would expect from undertaking a challenge like killing a Veteran mob.
That same comparison can be applied to GW2's Dynamic Events.
You see that an organized player can complete that event in 16 minutes - and it gives the same reward as an event that takes 1 minute.
How is that well-designed? How does that fit into your spectrum of "fun", in design?

It doesn't - because the "Do it for the fun of it!" argument people seem to like employing doesn't stand to reason, when you look at how the game is designed. It may be true for something like Just Cause or The Sims, but it doesn't hold up for things like The Elder Scrolls series, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Everquest, Devil May Cry series, or any other game that gives you "more" of something for doign a "harder" something.
In those games (RPGs, MMO or not) characters advance faster from more difficult to overcome challenges. It is a core part of the game.

GW2 is designed as an RPG with character leveling, skill acquisition, and gear progress for looks - but the Event and Vet/Champ/Boss mob system is not at all congruent with the rest of that design; thus why it is a poorly designed system.

There are a couple of points you've made here with which I disagree.  They're tied together but I'd like to address them separately if I may...
1. You suggest that the time and investment made in completing a challenge should be proportional to the rewards given for completing that challenge.  Your example:
"You see that an organized player can complete that event in 16 minutes - and it gives the same reward as an event that takes 1 minute.  How is that well-designed? How does that fit into your spectrum of "fun", in design?"

That example illustrates your assumption that the loot is the reward.  For the players saying "Play for the fun of it," the 16 minutes of gameplay is the reward.  The loot, to that player, is mostly inconsequential.  Somebody else mentioned the champion giant in Diessa Plateau.  I love that event - not because the loot is good but because I think it's an especially well-designed champion fight.  The terrain of the camp in which you fight him allows for interesting tactics.

I'm not arguing that they've done a good job designing every veteran or champion fight in the game.  I agree that they havent.  I would argue, however, that it would be just as reasonable for them to invest time into improving the quality of those battles as it would be for them to invest time into improving the loot tables of those monsters.

2.  You assert that poor loot rewards from long, difficult battles is incongruent with the other design elements of the game.  At best, I have mixed feelings about this notion.  There are advantages and disadvantages to having congruency of that kind at every scale.  Right now, the loot is congruent with the design when examined at the "zone" scale.  Individual encounters, including veteran and champion encounters, will vary, but indisputably, an hour in Frostgorge Sound will yield better loot than an hour in Metrica Province.
Advantages:  veterans and champions are deemphasized; there's incentive to roam the entire zone instead of focusing just on a few key encounters; loot is available for players who do not enjoy battles with oversized monsters.
Disdavantages:  incongruency at the "encounter" scale


There's certainly room for disagreement here.  I value the incentive to roam the entire zone a great deal.  You may value congruency at the encounter scale more.  I'm pleased to find champion encounters that are especially well-designed.  You seem more disappointed that most of them aren't.  This is a matter of opinion, though.  I respect yours, but I hope that this helps to clarify how things fit into my spectrum of fun.

#14 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

This is a good thread.  Unfortunately on the official forums, where a dev might actually read it, you'll get a non-committal response and maybe a thread lock for dissidence.  Or be merged into that thread about the bugged/nerfed drop rates.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#15 BnJ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

We definitely need better rewards in this game, I couldn't agree more.  The dragon events are a perfect example.

Give us something useful like lodestones, cores or T6 mats!!!

#16 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

I`ve been pointing out to this for so long now, GW2 just has such a bad approach for rewarding players !
Simply said rewards (drops) in game are so cheap that you must grind stuff to get by.....
Crafting is diminished to border of "buying can be cheaper".....
And harder stuff to obtain, needs you to get stacks of t6 mats that are just fairy tale for any casual player (and a lot of hardcore) !

#17 Gli

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 13 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

That example illustrates your assumption that the loot is the reward.  For the players saying "Play for the fun of it," the 16 minutes of gameplay is the reward.  The loot, to that player, is mostly inconsequential.  Somebody else mentioned the champion giant in Diessa Plateau.  I love that event - not because the loot is good but because I think it's an especially well-designed champion fight.  The terrain of the camp in which you fight him allows for interesting tactics.
You seem to have a very different idea of what's fun and what's less so than I have. That giant event, for example, takes far too long, and as such I don't consider it to be any fun at all beyond the first minute. Why? Because every next minute consists of doing exactly the same thing over and over. And there are far too many minutes of that.

I consider ANY combination of multiple events in that area that I can do in the time needed to kill the giant to be more fun than that giant event, because doing multiple events means doing different things to fill my time. And on top of that, any combination of multiple events will grant better rewards as well.

#18 EphraimGlass

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostGli, on 14 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

You seem to have a very different idea of what's fun and what's less so than I have. That giant event, for example, takes far too long, and as such I don't consider it to be any fun at all beyond the first minute. Why? Because every next minute consists of doing exactly the same thing over and over. And there are far too many minutes of that.

I consider ANY combination of multiple events in that area that I can do in the time needed to kill the giant to be more fun than that giant event, because doing multiple events means doing different things to fill my time. And on top of that, any combination of multiple events will grant better rewards as well.

Indeed, my threshold for tedium is probably around the 20 minute mark.  If the fight doesn't have the potential to last for 10 or 15 minutes, then it's "too easy."  I put that in quotes because I wouldn't want every fight to last that long.  If the giant were too easy to kill, then a zerg could just steamroll him.  Him having enough health to last 15 minutes means that there's plenty of opportunity for me to refine my tactics, appreciate the nuances of the terrain, and to gauge how well I'm doing.  I'm still not flawless at it and the dynamics always change a little bit depending on what mix of other players are present.  It's 15 minutes of doing "the same thing over and over" but that thing is a pretty complex mix.  I can't just press my autoattack and then kite the whole time.

Alternately, you mention that you'd rather do any other combination of events in the area.  One that's nearby is the cattlepult, where you have to defend some cows from harpies until they get launched.  By contrast, aside from the dialogue, I think that one's pretty dull.  It's a little longer than a minute but it typically is just pressing my autoattack and then kiting.  There's no real risk, it doesn't demand any tactics of me whatsoever, and the fight doesn't change at all with the addition of more players.

But maybe the better question to ask would be, can you name any events that you particularly like and why you like them?  That is, rather than saying that you like anything more than the fight with that giant, which doesn't really clarify what aspects of the game engage you.

Edited by EphraimGlass, 14 December 2012 - 11:03 AM.


#19 Corvindi

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:32 AM

I like the idea of rewarding something like tokens for armor for these group events in the open world.  It means more choices for those of us not doing dungeons and if the tokens are account bound they can't be farmed by bots.

#20 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:43 PM

I agree that there should be better rewards, there has to be.  It's getting to the point of why even bother with all of the below.

Jormag/Shatterer/Teq - 4 blues and a green medallion, lucky if I cover waypoint cost paid to get there with this.

Veterans - I only get what the merchants call junk from them.

Champions - I once got a rare from the Corrupted Quaggan event in Frostgorge, Anet must have seen this and I've have had nothing at all from them ever since.

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 14 December 2012 - 03:04 PM.


#21 Gli

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:49 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 14 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

But maybe the better question to ask would be, can you name any events that you particularly like and why you like them?  That is, rather than saying that you like anything more than the fight with that giant, which doesn't really clarify what aspects of the game engage you.
Generally speaking, I like events with interesting enemies that actually make an effort to hurt you, or hectic events that require effort to stay alive. That giant really isn't either, its attacks come at a very low frequency with tells long enough to grow a beard, they're easy to completely avoid one and all. Not to mention that ranged attackers can just strafe it for the duration of the fight without a care in the world.

Many events scale very badly, unfortunately. With enough people present, some events that are interesting to play solo or in a small group, often become nothing more than a race to tag enemies before they die.

A specific example of an event I enjoy: the final centaur event in the Harathi Hinterlands, the one with the boss that summons whirlwinds. You have to stay on your toes the whole time because of those whirlwinds flitting all over the place.

#22 Heart Collector

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

View PostGli, on 14 December 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

A specific example of an event I enjoy: the final centaur event in the Harathi Hinterlands, the one with the boss that summons whirlwinds. You have to stay on your toes the whole time because of those whirlwinds flitting all over the place.

That was probably the single best event experience I've had, it was a vicious bloodbath including the events leading up to it, there were players and friendlies and hostiles everywhere, damn it was crazy :D

#23 Soki

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 14 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Indeed, my threshold for tedium is probably around the 20 minute mark.  If the fight doesn't have the potential to last for 10 or 15 minutes, then it's "too easy."  I put that in quotes because I wouldn't want every fight to last that long.  If the giant were too easy to kill, then a zerg could just steamroll him.  Him having enough health to last 15 minutes means that there's plenty of opportunity for me to refine my tactics, appreciate the nuances of the terrain, and to gauge how well I'm doing.  I'm still not flawless at it and the dynamics always change a little bit depending on what mix of other players are present.  It's 15 minutes of doing "the same thing over and over" but that thing is a pretty complex mix.  I can't just press my autoattack and then kite the whole time.

Alternately, you mention that you'd rather do any other combination of events in the area.  One that's nearby is the cattlepult, where you have to defend some cows from harpies until they get launched.  By contrast, aside from the dialogue, I think that one's pretty dull.  It's a little longer than a minute but it typically is just pressing my autoattack and then kiting.  There's no real risk, it doesn't demand any tactics of me whatsoever, and the fight doesn't change at all with the addition of more players.

But maybe the better question to ask would be, can you name any events that you particularly like and why you like them?  That is, rather than saying that you like anything more than the fight with that giant, which doesn't really clarify what aspects of the game engage you.
Time taken due to the mob's health is not difficult. It is tedium. The only thing it tests is how many times I second-guess my time spent there; and justify it by saying "Well I've already wasted 6 minutes - may as well kill it".
Perhaps you are challenged by different things - which is fine - but in no way is a 16-min event giving the same reward as a 1-minute event constitutable as "good game design".


I actually don't like many events in the game, because they are not any different than one-another. Every now and then you get a unique boss - I like those - but they last way too goddamned long. 10minutes is NOT a good length for a bossfight when it gives the same reward as a 1min event, no matter how well the boss fight is designed.

Edited by Soki, 14 December 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#24 Heart Collector

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

View PostSoki, on 14 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Time taken due to the mob's health is not difficult. It is tedium. The only thing it tests is how many times I second-guess my time spent there; and justify it by saying "Well I've already wasted 6 minutes - may as well kill it".
Perhaps you are challenged by different things - which is fine - but in no way is a 16-min event giving the same reward as a 1-minute event constitutable as "good game design".


I actually don't like many events in the game, because they are not any different than one-another. Every now and then you get a unique boss - I like those - but they last way too goddamned long. 10minutes is NOT a good length for a bossfight when it gives the same reward as a 1min event, no matter how well the boss fight is designed.

Indeed. A boss doesn't need to have a huge health bar do be challenging, it merely needs to be enough to keep him going for a respectable amount of time. And they can always add some "filler time" if needed by other means like minion spawning, as well as increasing damage and more varied abilities toward the end to make the last part of the fight more frenzied and climactic.

A boss fights challenge should come from variety, unpredictability and escalation, not just massive health that needs to be chipped down in a steady predictable way IMO.

#25 EphraimGlass

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostHeart Collector, on 14 December 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Indeed. A boss doesn't need to have a huge health bar do be challenging, it merely needs to be enough to keep him going for a respectable amount of time. And they can always add some "filler time" if needed by other means like minion spawning, as well as increasing damage and more varied abilities toward the end to make the last part of the fight more frenzied and climactic.

A boss fights challenge should come from variety, unpredictability and escalation, not just massive health that needs to be chipped down in a steady predictable way IMO.

I didn't mean to imply that it was the boss's health that made it difficult.  "Enough to keep him going for a respectable amount of time" is what I was trying to convey.  To me, that means there has to be at least enough time for a mistake to have a meaningful impact.  If I miss a dodge and get downed or defeated, I don't want it to be "obvious" that it's not worth reviving me.  Or a less extreme example, if I drop a turret in the wrong place, I want the fight to last long enough that I could pick it up, place it someplace else afterward, and still have it mean something to the fight.

Edited by EphraimGlass, 14 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.


#26 Sinful01

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Not...Really. That's an entirely different conversation.
GW2 handles power-creep like that pretty well with downscaling; thoughif ANet were truly going for "Do what looks fun to you" approach, they'd make upscaling affect the world - rather than just WvW. The fact that they don't do that lends more leverage behind my prior argument for time/reward ratio.

Well let me try and tie the two conversations together.

Because there isn't a way I can push myself and be challenged by the content, every encounter ends up feeling "same'y" after a while.

Remove "risk vs reward" and you're just left with "time vs reward". The scaling system removes my ability to push myself, and leaves only "reward for your time (grinding)" which then puts the focus on how much grind can you fit into your time.

As Duskwolf said ...

View PostDuskWolf, on 13 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

It's not just that, it's that there's no risk to it, there's no thrill at all.

Personally, one thing I really like about the Elder Scrolls games is if I wanted to put myself in a really dangerous situation, I could expect to find loot that was exceptional.  (Well, after I modded the level scaling out of Skyrim.)

If I wanted to sneak into a really hard area and bust my butt surviving (which is what I actually, really find fun) I could do so.  In the end, if I found loot, it'd be scaled for a higher level character who could do that content more easily, so it was extra good for me as a lower level who just braved certain peril and survived.

In GW2 I don't get that because ...

Quote

[...] it's basically a ladder. If you're further up the ladder than certain mobs, you insta-win, if you're so much below, you insta-lose, and nothing about your personal skill or playing ability will change that. That's what bothers me so much. It's all a massive grind, and any rewards I do get feel meaningless and shallow because of that.

I can't do something really stupid and dangerous but end up winning because I play my class well.**
Because of that, it drains my "fun".  It is either "I win" or "oops I didn't notice I wandered into an area too high for me" and I get stomped. .. and either way, I'm getting trash loot for my time almost exclusively. lol


** Well actually, I found one thing.  A couple times doing PuG fractals we've nearly wiped on the boss of the dredge fractal.  Twice now I've had most the team downed or dead, and 2 of us left.  I've happily kited the boss AND dropped the lava on it AND dps'd while kiting, giving the other person left alive time to revive the others.  (Thief + Stealth + Shortbow to immobilize it, then Shadowshot to get up to the lever).  THAT was fun and exciting ... though the blues in the chest were still depressing. lol

#27 Killyox

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

Personally I am not a loot-whore so i do things for fun as areason.

#28 DuskWolf

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

@Killyox

Yes, but the point is is that reward comes naturally if the game is fun. Any loot that occurs is just the icing on the cake. So a feeling of reward is a part of a fun game, if you don't ever feel rewarded for something, then the game is doing something wrong. It's like mountain climbing. You don't do it because there's loot at the top of the mountain (though there might be, who knows), you do it because the mountain is there. It's risky, it's thrilling, it's exciting!

A good game has a hint of that thrill. Something that can capture your passion within the moment and allow you to feel such a thrill. Either because you have friends to defend, or because the game is making you realise your own skill, or whatevs. But a good game captures the feel of that. That's what a game is. The problem with GW2 is that it's not a good game; It might be a good piece of entertainment, but the jury is still out for me on whether it's actually a game at all. I have to say that the parts of it that most genuinely feel like a game are the jumping puzzles.

Veni, Vidi, Vici in VVVVVV was a beast of a mountain. Depending on one's skill, it could take thirteen or thirteen hundred tries to get through it, but no matter when you did, you felt amazing. That's because VVVVVV challenged skill, and it did it without ever punishing those who were either weak or strong in that department. That last part is so important. A good game doesn't punish you for having too much skill or a lack thereof. Bad games can punish you for one or the other. GW2 punishes you for having too much skill (I'll get back to this in a little while).

Mass Effect 3's multiplayer has this feeling, too. See, this is the manner of passion I was hoping GW2 would inspire in me. Have you ever played a gold match in ME3 MP with a good team? Have you ever been useful to such a team? The nice thing about ME3's MP is that there are difficulty levels, so if you aren't great at games you can play it on bronze and you can still feel useful, but if you feel like you're being better than others and not allowing them to contribute, you can play it on gold and that restores the ratio. This makes ME3's MP a good game. It has that sense of thrill, it can adjust to your level of skill and challenge a group of people. It's very pleasing. Very satisfying.

GW2 holds hands, but it never, ever gives you the option to not have your hand held. This is what takes the thrill away. All throughout the game your hand is held even more than in Free Realms, which makes me want to cry inside. I can genuinely say without any sarcasm or irony that Free Realms is a less hand-holdy game than GW2, and that's a good thing. In GW2, if you have armour that's better than your foes, you're perfectly safe. If you don't, you're relegated to playing only in a zone where you are safe, otherwise you get one-shotted.

"No no, dear, that's not for you. You don't have the right armour, yet. Your ability to play doesn't matter at all, here. Yes, this would be a better game if everyone was allowed to enjoy it regardless of their level of skill, but no. You need armour with better numbers. You should go and grind for that. Then when you have it you'll win all those battles in that next zone! Isn't that nice? It's all so friendly and cheerful. No thrills for you, dearie. Thrills are bad for the heart."

I can't even go to a higher level area and do things because my skill doesn't matter at all. And I'm sorry to say this but... that's just no fun for me. Even TERA does a better job of letting you advance by skill, though that's far from perfect, as well. I just want a game that allows me to feel some level of thrill, rather than just the long road of vertical progression. See, vertical progression is an irony, because it's not vertical at all. It's a leisurely stroll down a very flat, but very, very long road. There are no mountains to climb, and the scenery is lovely. You could almost fall asleep playing it.

And I do.

It's not about the loot, it's about feeling something. And the writing is so, so, so awful most of the time (especially in the Pact) that the game just fails to elicit any emotion from me via that, even. I don't care about the characters, I don't feel compelled to care about other people (like ME3 encourages), I don't feel like I'm climbing any mountains, I just don't feel jack. GW2 feels like a cure for insomnia, it's targeted at the lowest common denominator. Everything is safe. Even the potential of the races is diluted far too much down to orcs, elves, gnomes, humans, and giants once you peel away the cosmetic veneer.

I'm sorry, lore fans. I'm not holding TERA up as a perfect example here because it really, really, really isn't, but the Popori are so much better than the asura and sylvari. In TERA, you have the adorable, short Popori fulfilling the role of the naturey race, and you have the giants as the intellectuals. This appeals to my desire for paradigm shifts. That's unusual to me. But in GW2, what do we have? Naturey elves! Oh sorry, sylvari. Tech-tinker gnomes! Oh, I apologise, asura. And it BORES ME. They could have done so much better, but I find the races so off-puttingly unoriginal. They don't live up to their potential at all.

There aren't even fun animations. I find the asura obnoxious as opposed to fun, their attitude and their way of being is just completely repugnant to me. Again, in TERA, at the very least the Popori manage to elicit a response from me by being so adorable and having some of the most perfect character animations I've ever seen in any MMO. So that's something. But GW2 has NOTHING. I don't care about my character, the world, or anything.

And if a game doesn't make me feel anything, I just have no desire to play it.

My issue with GW2 is that it feels like it was designed by actuaries, for actuaries. For people who have very little imagination. For the GW1 fans who actually liked the black & white, one dimensional storyline presented there (and we all know it was). For me, it does nothing.

If the game was fun, I could overlok that. But it isn't. There is no thrill!

Thrill is one factor of this. Don't mix it up with loot.

---Edit---

To explain this, I found Prophecies' story to be a horribly unimaginative snorefest. I'm sorry. Both Factions and Nightfall were more interesting in the story department, but Prophecies was just boring, one-dimensional nonsense. Did anyone actually ever like Adelbern? Rurik? Anyone? But I played it because it was fun. It had moments of genuine thrill. Some of those were due to the challenge presented by the game, some of those came from defending your friends.

So I could overlook the story being one of the worst told in RPG history. They're no Obsidian, we all know that. And not a single thing elicited a response from me in Prophecies, not a peep. But it was fun. I kind of hoped that GW2 would be better in the story department, but it wasn't. Okay, so they weren't going to make me feel anything with the story. Fine.

Is the game thrilling due to challenge? Nope! Is the game thrilling due to social interactions? Nope!

And that's my issue. It's nothing to do with loot. It's just that if something is thrilling and rewarding by nature, then any loot you get feels good. If something is unrewarding and shallow, then any loot you get feels meaningless.

---Edit---

One more regarding the feeling of the design of the game.

Charr: They're okay. But they're still too bestial and orc-like. Their tech is nice, but overshadowed.
Asura: They're gnomes. Straight up gnomes. Gnomes with 'tude, yo. But gnomes.
Sylvari: They're an elf & dryad mix. Nothing to see here.
Humans: I thought these guys were supposed to be more Renaissancy. I guess not.
Norns: Big, dumb, and violent. But worse, they're vikings with no belly.

So damn stereotypical.

Now I'm going to compare it against TERA, which is far, far from perfect and has a multitude of problems of its own which bug me, but it does have some useful comparisons.

Popori: Are gn--huh, wait! No, they're not! They're naturey, and oh gods, so rolypoly.
Baraka: Must be big, du--huh? They're intellectuals? Men of science? I am so down with this! And tubby too!

So right off the bat, TERA made me feel great about two races. I feel good playing them! When I was playing the charr I had to ignore their orcishness, and how they were overshadowed by the gnomes, but I was deluding myself. The charr turned out to be slightly smarter orcs, this was confirmed by the Pact storyline. And that was that. But when playing the Popori, they're naturey, they love flowers, they're nothing to do with technology! Playing a Baraka, they're itnellectuals, they love reading, they have a belly.

Despite that the Baraka do have some gorilla-ish features, I wanted to play one! I was totally up for playing one! It wasn't like GW2 where I was just barely managing to get together interest enough for the charr, I had two races that I genuinely wanted to play. And I've been casting my eye curiously toward the Aman, too.

TERA is supposed to be a stereotypical thing, due to being Asian. But it is not.

So that made me feel things. By realising the brilliant potential they had with GW2 instead of going for the lowest common denominator (orcs, elves, gnomes), they could have made me feel things. But no, they wanted to please boring people. That's fine. It's just not for me. But when you couple how mind numbingly boring the GW2 races are with how unfun, shallow, and completely unrewarding the game is, you understand why I don't want to play it.

I don't care about loot in GW2.

I don't care about anything in it.

So that's that.

Maybe the next MMO dev will get it right. Please get it right.

Edited by DuskWolf, 14 December 2012 - 07:27 PM.


#29 Sinful01

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

Man, Dusk, just when I find myself kinda' agreeing with the spirit of one of your posts, you go and write either a manifesto, or what could be considered by many to be a cry for help :P

Edited by Sinful01, 14 December 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#30 sty0pa

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

View PostDuskWolf, on 14 December 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

There aren't even fun animations. I find the asura obnoxious as opposed to fun, their attitude and their way of being is just completely repugnant to me. Again, in TERA, at the very least the Popori manage to elicit a response from me by being so adorable and having some of the most perfect character animations I've ever seen in any MMO. So that's something. But GW2 has NOTHING. I don't care about my character, the world, or anything.

Now now, that's not quite fair.
The asura /cry is about the best ever in any game.

The GW racial characterizations are:
- Asura arrogant technocrats
- Charr arrogant militarists
- Norn arrogant primitives
- Humans deeply conflicted emo whingers, arrogant in their emo-ness
- Sylvari deeply conflicted nature-y emo whingers

Most of the NPCs of ALL the races are, frankly, *s that I don't like much.  They're all COMPLETELY self-absorbed, even to the point of self-sacrifice...if only to show us all how awesome they really are.  The arch-characters of Destiny's edge I actually HATE.  I don't *care* if destiny's edge gets back together because they're all selfish jerks, well, except for Caithe and Eir, who are 'deeply self-doubting' jerks.  And Traherne, God Protect any faction with him as it's "general"...oh me, oh my (hand wringing, worrying about what the other faction leaders think about his leader ship), oh noes.  I swear he cries himself to sleep at night.  

Oh, you're going to sacrifice yourself to save us?  I honestly am glad, I can stop listening to you whine.

I simply don't like the people in Tyria.  Period.  Didn't really put my finger on it until now.
I really wish I'd read Destiny's Edge before I bought the game, then I could have ratcheted down my expectations as far as storytelling and characterization go.  I HATE ALL THE PEOPLE...which makes it fairly hard to get into the game.  >:(

If they'd just implement a patch where we could actually become bad guys and slaughter all the smug bastards, that would be GREAT.  Outside of Lion's Arch?  I'm 80, they've got NOTHING I need, which is a sad commentary in itself.




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