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A seven-step guide to fix GW2's PvE


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#31 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:32 PM

You've still got to make a business case for ArenaNet to even bother.

If the war between raspberry_jam and Robsy is any indication, fun is incidental and not ArenaNet's goal.  You need to make a business case for them to move forward.

Edited by MazingerZ, 13 December 2012 - 09:33 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#32 Kymeric

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 13 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

If developers worried that much about whining you wouldn't have any games to whine about. Someone will always want things differently and be very vocal about it. And most people dislike change. The same people who hate the now will hate the changes, because invariably it will bring changes to the few things they actually enjoy doing.

I absolutely agree with you.

I liked the idea of rifts changing a zone completely.  Trion could have gone even farther, and made it so that if rifts did conquer a zone, new quests and ways of interacting would open up.  Suddenly the zone you've already been through a million times is very different because the planes are in ascendance.

But... the whining happened, and for some reason the developers listened.  Rifts were tweaked to be less persistent, and they would happily disappear once they had dominated.  It'd be great if developers didn't listen to the whining, and stood by their vision for the game, but do they?

#6 is great, and would make the world feel much more dynamic.  History, however, makes me wonder how long it would last.

Players say they want a dynamic world, but some of them get freaked out when that means that their play has to be dynamic to match it.

Edited by Kymeric, 13 December 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#33 Mr_Finesse

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

Love the idea behind #6 and #7.  That would be amazing and something NEW.

#34 Kymeric

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

We've already had representation from posters in this thread who feel that #6 would impede their regular play because they had planned on normal progress through the zone.  Let me make clear that their posts are in no way whining, but they are an example of the argument that if things get too dynamic, some players will be unhappy.

IMO, GW2 already is best played with an open mind, taking the game as it comes.  It doesn't function well, and even sometimes seems to actively resist the traditional MMORPG play of setting goals, immediate and longterm, and then systematically working toward them.

A very dynamic game would make that even harder.  You would have to learn that you log in to find out what you'll run into on a given day, rather than deciding what you want to achieve on a given day and following the most efficient path toward that goal.

And that will frustrate some.

#35 kaldemeo

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostAlleji, on 13 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

3. More events. More, more, more.

Replay value...

#36 Heart Collector

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:35 PM

Excellent ideas... I've actually been harping on about how I'd love DEs to be more dynamic, world-changing and impactful, and your write-up is in line with some of the things I think as well. I love the difficulty scaling idea, as well as the "daily zone-turned-into-a-hellhole" one! And I'd also add aesthetic changes in the zone to go with these, e.g. if things are going bad the weather gets worse.

#37 Jairyn

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

I like all these ideas, Alleji, great job!

Any addition that moves GW2 closer to being a "living" virtual world is awesome, IMO. I'd love to see more events, especially something akin to the warzones concept.

#38 Devincean

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:57 PM

I must say I agree with most of these points infact I am really hoping now that arenanet is doing live staff for support they add GMs.
The biggest thing I hope is they bring back up the rewards for champs and Dynamtic Events I played at launch at karama gold items where perfect at launch then they nerfed them mostly because of all the bots now that most the bots are gone I am hoping they can return them to normal i was looking foward to enjoying the game not 24/7 having to grind gold/karma just to get the fun gear I wanted to use for looks I know some stuff should take work to get to and I would really like to see more legendary weapons and armor get added.

The 2 things not in this I think should be are
1. Guesting should be added now that server transfers aren't free would make dynamic events more fun and less of a hassel leveling up.
2. Dynamtic events default reset (by this I mean if a DE gets bugged out and can't be finished after x time should reset back to start so it can be done so many times I run into zones see a DE run over just to find its bugged and can't be done this should be a easy fix if dynamtic event isn't successful in 1 hour reset)

#39 Dasryn

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:28 AM

ive been preaching for a while, Dynamic Events need to occur more often.  there should never be a time when someone is in map chat asking, "any events up?"

they should be happening all the time.  often enough to where if you dont want to do hearts, you dont even have to.

#40 Alleji

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:10 AM

View PostKymeric, on 13 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

If #6 gets implemented, though, prepare for the high QQ.  Early in Rift's life, the forums were filled with people who were annoyed when Rifts cascaded across the zone that was their level and they couldn't do questing as usual.  And that was when there were still plenty of people around to fight off the Rifts.  It was just too much of an inconvenience to a vocal portion of the population to have to react to the dynamic world rather than do their questing and visit the vendors they wanted to visit.
Yeah, obviously it's going to upset a few people because they can't do the thing they were intending to do. But it's going to entertain way more... and it's not like the changes are permanent, so at worst they'll just have to wait a day to 100% that zone and do something else today. Maybe even participate in the event - now there's an idea! :P

Quote

And I second the request that you put this on the official forums.
I don't go there very often, but yeah, I guess I will. I mean, I'm not actually expecting Anet to read this and go work on it immediately... it's more wishful thinking and just sharing my ideas. But, on the other hand, might as well put it out there.

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

You've still got to make a business case for ArenaNet to even bother.

If the war between raspberry_jam and Robsy is any indication, fun is incidental and not ArenaNet's goal.  You need to make a business case for them to move forward.
The business case would be:
- Shift the resources from one-time events to this (permanent and reusable content). Just optimizing the templates to easily make events in the future will pay huge dividends.
- If they choose to not add live GMs, all of this stuff will require almost no maintenance once they set it up and they could go back to the bigger events they're currently making.
- Retaining more players so they buy more stuff seems like a good business model in itself. It might even justify hiring extra GMs :P

View PostGreen, on 13 December 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Great write up! Are you Totalbiscuit by chance? Your description of the different types of events in GW2 sound like the points he detailed in a video back in beta. No offence, just saying. :)
Lol! No, I'm not Totalbiscuit. I don't even have an awesome British accent.

Edited by Alleji, 14 December 2012 - 07:11 AM.


#41 Leriel

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:44 AM

I want to press 'like this' even harder. "Anet hire this guy"

As far as #6 goes:
warzone: i can think of something even better than cursed shore - ascalon battle fractal. First time in PvE i felt like in real battle.
captured by enemies: i like this idea, but rewards must reflect how difficult this area has become, for example break into base of flame legion deep in the zone to fight charr commanders which have high % chance for exotic, or a gold silver bag. Also caution needs to be paid on access to personal storyline points. Disabling hearts is ok, but disabling ability to do personal storyline imo would anger too many players.
I believe this game needs super hostile zone with high rewards. Orr is super hostile alright, just rewards are bullshit.

Also, i believe that Straits invasion meta events are way better done than and tied than anythign else in orr or maybe in whole game. In cursed shore and malchor it's just npc group A doing their thing and npc group B doing sth other. Sure i would appreciate more uncontested waypoints on that map, but when i enter i can immediately see where in the battle i am needed in the frontlines, and it's great. If naval battles weren't major part of it, i think they would get to be enjoyed by many more players.

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

You've still got to make a business case for ArenaNet to even bother.

If the war between raspberry_jam and Robsy is any indication, fun is incidental and not ArenaNet's goal.  You need to make a business case for them to move forward.
Portable event-o-matic that will display all events for zone of your choice when activated. reusable. expires after 1 month.
1000 gems.
There you go.

Edited by Leriel, 14 December 2012 - 08:47 AM.


#42 Yol

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:58 PM

View PostAlleji, on 14 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Yeah, obviously it's going to upset a few people because they can't do the thing they were intending to do. But it's going to entertain way more... and it's not like the changes are permanent, so at worst they'll just have to wait a day to 100% that zone and do something else today. Maybe even participate in the event - now there's an idea! :P

Alternatively, they could update the heart quest conditions during that particular day/week.......farmer joe usually needs your help to protect his cabbages from local wildlife, but this week the flame legion charr are attacking ebonhawk and they are destroying his cabbages (to reduce the food supply to the ebonhawk troops). Killing the local wildlife and/or charr attacking his cabbages provides progress on that particular heart.
Heart quests don't have a lot or replayability in them (some can be boring after doing them a couple of times), so maybe this would help?

Edited by Yol, 14 December 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#43 Piippo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

Bravo! *applause* This is one of the best suggestions I've seen on these forums. I salute you!

#44 Rain King

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:41 PM

I agree with everything other than #5 & #7.

I would add that current DE and spawn rates are an issue. They cycle way too fast. If you are solo in Cursed shore by the time you clear an area -everything has started to respawn so "fighting you way through" feels pointless. When you start running you are boomeranged by every single trash mob which is even more frustrating because it feels like you're "kittened if you do, kittened if you don't."

This is related to the world being dead though: if the maps were full we would need the spawn rates this high but the maps are dead. Is there any way for the maps to do a population check every 15 minutes and adjust spawn timers accordingly?

#45 Kymeric

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:56 PM

View PostRain King, on 14 December 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

This is related to the world being dead though: if the maps were full we would need the spawn rates this high but the maps are dead. Is there any way for the maps to do a population check every 15 minutes and adjust spawn timers accordingly?

I think they already do.

In mid level zones, DEs are much more sparse at some times than others.  Weekends, for example, even in mid-level zones I run into other players and DEs constantly.  Mid-week during Oceanic times, I sometimes have to pop into one of the starter areas where DEs are a bit more frequent in order to finish out my Daily.  I can only figure it's due to population.

Perhaps the Cursed Shore ones are just tuned too frequent?

#46 Kymeric

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostAlleji, on 14 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Yeah, obviously it's going to upset a few people because they can't do the thing they were intending to do. But it's going to entertain way more... and it's not like the changes are permanent, so at worst they'll just have to wait a day to 100% that zone and do something else today. Maybe even participate in the event - now there's an idea! :P


Yes.  I was very disappointed when the cry went up about rifts dominating zones.  I was disappointed that people were so set on following the linear quests that they'd rather do that then actually participate in taking back the zone.

Whether more people loved the events or wanted their predictable leveling experience is impossible for me to say.  The devs, however, decided to tone the invasions down.  It's just possible that those of us who want a very dynamic world are projecting onto the populace as a whole, and that the majority really does prefer a predictable pathway through a theme-park experience.

I'd love to see #6 implemented, especially if it opened more possibilities than just fighting back the event.  New hearts, new areas, new mobs, etc.  I'm just thinking about past experience, and how it might not go over quite as smoothly as it sounds.

#47 Sazaraki

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:02 PM

This is a great suggestion! I love GW2 as it is but improvements are always welcome! This would defiantly get me to go back to other zones that I really liked, but have no reason to return to.

#48 Desild

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:12 PM

All valid points, but there are a few more I'd love to see change. Know what I hate? Crude rewards for wanderlusting outside of Map Exploration activities.

I also hate how everything even slightly cool takes anything between 100-250 of a kind of rare item, but said items are NIGH IMPOSSIBLE to be seen in the wild. If I want a Foefire's Essence, either I have to cough up with the 350 gold to buy the Lodestones, run a highly time consuming instance for the mere chance of getting ONE or TWO for a chest reward, or kill the same kind of mobs for the rare chance of ONE per two hours of farming.

Do we really need 8 types of Glob of Ectoplasm (GW1 comparison) and over 30 Obsidian Armor equivalents for weapons? Does my ability to get a cool reward have to depend on my ability to exploit the economy rather than my skill and determination? Because right now, my life savings stand in the 70 gold and I had to make a lot of sacrifices to reach that sum. It is ludicrous.

If today's patch doesn't fix AT LEAST one of my long standing issues, I'm going to pack my case, get a refund, and use that money to fund more fun activities. Like my Magic card collection or competitive Pokémon.

Edited by Desild, 14 December 2012 - 02:23 PM.


#49 Grulnork

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:54 AM

It's an old topic perhaps, but what I think is missing in this list is merging servers for underpopulated zones. Regardless of how well they incentivise ppl to go out into the world again, it was inevitable that at least some zones would be underpopulated due to the fact that the community is getting spread out, even if everything was well designed.

I think it was a step backwards to go from districts (in GW1) to old fashion servers. They can either just go away with the whole server idea for pve and make one big world server and let ppl go to overflow or they just bandaid it with a sort of "underflow server" as ppl have suggested before. They can let the underflow servers combine certain servers so you always see the same ppl and then you can keep the community feeling you got from a server system.

#50 Butr0sButr0s

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

Great post.  To mirror what some others have already said, I opened it expecting to be another laundry list of complaints, but I think the ideas are fantastic.  Sounds like some nice overhauls, perhaps it could be part of a 'vision' for the game moving forward and towards a proper expansions.

View PostSoki, on 13 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

The world needs to have incentive to be in.
The argument "do it because it's fun!" doesn't stand up in RPGs. Things need to progress your character in some way. Harder, longer challenges need to reward you, based on how hard or long they were. Otherwise, it feels like crap when you fight something for 10mins and kill it - and get a gray drop - or none!

GW2 could've been so much better than it is. I'm hoping in the Jan/Feb update, it'll get a jump-start. Hoping..Not expecting.

I don't agree with this personally.  I ever go out of of my way to complete dailys and I enjoy helping with champions/dynamic events even when there is no reward.  I've been at 80 for months and haven't felt the need for artificial 'carrots' at all.  It's really (as the first post indicates) about balancing the content to make it challenging.  Beating on a bullet sponge for 10 minutes with zero chance of death is certainly not fun, but if there was risk involved and some level of skill required in the encounter I think a lot more people would be interested in the dynamic events.

Edited by Butr0sButr0s, 14 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#51 Resolve

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

If Anet did even half of those suggestions then this game would be so much better. Send your post to Anet!

What you suggested sounds a lot like Anets pre-release talk, with the warzones and actual dynamic events.

#52 Mastruq

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:23 PM

The OP has awesome ideas that should be shamelessly stolen by A.net. A+++ would play your game.

As for monetizing, obviously the game as described would be much improved and be interesting to more players for a longer time. Those players that you wouldnt keep interested otherwise will buy the usual stuff from the store, resulting in more revenue. TLDR: monetize it just the same as the rest of the game.

Btw they suck at monetizing their game, I'd spend more money on GW2 if there was more interesting stuff to buy (lottery tickets dont count, I dont buy those irl either).

#53 Grimare_

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

1-5 I totally agree with, but 6-7 I'm a bit iffy about.

#54 anselme25

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 03:42 AM

I would add to this the fact that you only get tier 6 materials in orr. Arenanet has to spread ALL tier mats to ALL zones, otherwise you'll feel stupid not farming in orr because you get the most money out of the materials you get there. What I mean by this is: a lvl1 grub should have the possibility of looting tier 6 mats, and a lvl 80 risen should have the possibility to loot tier 1 mats. Of course the loot tables should differ according to difficulty, but the loot for mats has to be redistributed across all level range mobs.

#55 Trei

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:13 AM

View Postanselme25, on 15 February 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

I would add to this the fact that you only get tier 6 materials in orr. Arenanet has to spread ALL tier mats to ALL zones, otherwise you'll feel stupid not farming in orr because you get the most money out of the materials you get there. What I mean by this is: a lvl1 grub should have the possibility of looting tier 6 mats, and a lvl 80 risen should have the possibility to loot tier 1 mats. Of course the loot tables should differ according to difficulty, but the loot for mats has to be redistributed across all level range mobs.
Wrong approach IMHO.

I'd rather a level 80 have practical uses for tier 1 mats even at max crafting.
I find that to be a better way for mats and zones to stay level range specific and yet remain relevant to max level players.

#56 zwei2stein

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

I give you this:

+1

#57 zwei2stein

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

View PostCruxisinhibitor, on 13 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

5. Worldwide and zone-wide event notifications. Another very simple addition, but once you've really made events dynamic (points #1 and #2), added more of them (#3), and gave the players a reason to go there (#4), tell people about them! Display all events happening in the zone on the map, with an option to toggle it off, and display MAJOR events happening in other zones on the world map, like Orr temple assaults, dragons, swamp monster in Queensdale, etc. People will see events and flock to them instead of wandering about empty zones alone or farming events in Cursed Shore as a zerg.

This is increadibly important.

Even if all other changes are no-go, this one is desperatelly needed to prevent feeling of empty, grindy worlds.

Also, this is my idea: Allow people to ctrl-click event markers to call them in map chat just like they can call pois or waypoints. Allow people quickly share event they find with zone so that others can click link and have event added to map display.

#58 Humanmind

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:18 PM

Every players i know from many games leave the game because of the PVE.The world PVE and PVE mechanisms need a total revision.

Edited by Humanmind, 15 February 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#59 Sandpit

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

I agree with this. Also need to kill the waypoint cost as that also is a negative for getting people to join events. At very least in-zone transport should be made as accessible as possble. Nobody should ever be worse off for joining an event.

#60 tfckmk988

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:12 PM

I generally like this but be worried if I was Anet that the difficulty scalling will make the event to hard for people who are doing the zone at the recommend level and not bored 80's roaming the world




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