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live team response bugs

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#1 Neo Nugget

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

Posted Image


Over in the land of the official forums, Jason King has posted an introduction to ArenaNet's Live Response Team. The basic idea of this small group of developers is to address and fix a good portion of the bugs found in the game world, as well as fix exploits and monitor player concerns in the forum and game. He overviews the process of how a game bug or exploit goes from "submitted" to "fixed", which includes determining the severity of the problem, reproducing it, handing it off to the appropriate member to determine a fix, then finally dousing it in harsh quality assurance tests. The time-consuming process is emphasized often, as great care goes into making sure no other bugs are introduced as a result of another bug's fixing.

Another interesting note is the mention of monthly achievement improvements. While most of the content addition notes are kept "hush hush", it's mentioned that the goal to increase these types of small changes will become possible once the game is clear of major bugs.

Remember: A bug report a day keeps the dragons away.

#2 Green

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

Nice, just in time for a lunch hour read, thanks for re-posting

#3 matsif

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:11 PM

and the thread was apparently closed due to a lot of flaming and such after much moderation.

gg.

#4 Green

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

[quote name='matsif' timestamp='1355429518' post='2117193']
and the thread was apparently closed due to a lot of flaming and such after much moderation.

gg.
[/quote]

True story, many bugs (I'm still not playing my Mesmer due to the GS bugs that arose after the last major update), and many flamers on the GW2 forums. TBH I think that the flamers cut a lot deeper on the GW2 forums than they do here on the Guru forums. I thought it would be the reverse case this long after launch.

#5 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

This is an extremely positive thing.
I have good feelings for the Jan/Feb update, as a player looking for quality content rather than longevitous grind.

#6 Zhahz

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

I think a lot of the "flaming" there is justified and ANet is a bunch of wusses for constantly surpressing negative feedback.  The shut down threads, move posts, move threads, etc rather than allow discussion.

If they didn't constantly shut down anything remotely negative, perhaps posters there would disucss things in a more civil manner.  Maybe not but it does get old having your posts and threads "censored" in the name of making GW2 look like some kind of gaming utopia on their forums.

It also seems like the official general forum is kind of slow moving - either because there's little point in posting there unless you're a fanboi or because the moderators remove so much stuff.  The general forum here at guru has far better discussions and moves thru topics faster.  You'll see the same threads on page one at the GW2 official general forum all thru the day which is kind of unheard of for a major MMORPG with this many players.

#7 Omedon

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

[quote name='Zhahz' timestamp='1355430225' post='2117213']
  The shut down threads, move posts, move threads, etc rather than allow discussion.

If they didn't constantly shut down anything remotely negative, perhaps posters there would disucss things in a more civil manner.  
[/quote]

Honestly, maybe I'll start hanging out there then, since I've all but given up on guru due to so much negativity over a game that I am absolutely loving, as are my entire guild.

The internet at large are not worthy of GW2's idealistic and highly reasonable and smart approach to development.  The biggest mistake made is that GW2 expected its vocal "fan base" to be civil on the internet.  The more draconian they get on their forums, the closer I'll get to having a new news and discussion home.  

This isn't a "head in the sand" mentality talking, I acknowledge that GW2 has its flaws, but the negativity that gets spewed at this well intended game for sane, reasonable, mature players that are given all the tools to make their own fun but instead expect it all to be mind numbing and unidirectional like other games is appalling.

The sooner the game's community slims down to those appreciative and worthy of what we have in GW2, the better.

It's not for everyone.  Heck, it's not for most of the people that will read this.

Edited by Omedon, 13 December 2012 - 08:53 PM.

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#8 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355431889' post='2117243']
Honestly, maybe I'll start hanging out there then, since I've all but given up on guru due to so much negativity over a game that I am absolutely loving, as are my entire guild.

The internet at large are not worthy of GW2's idealistic and highly reasonable and smart approach to development.  The biggest mistake made is that GW2 expected its vocal "fan base" to be civil on the internet.  The more draconian they get on their forums, the closer I'll get to having a new news and discussion home.  

This isn't a "head in the sand" mentality talking, I acknowledge that GW2 has its flaws, but the negativity that gets spewed at this well intended game for sane, reasonable, mature players that are given all the tools to make their own fun but instead expect it all to be mind numbing and unidirectional like other games is appalling.

The sooner the game's community slims down to those appreciative and worthy of what we have in GW2, the better.

It's not for everyone.  Heck, it's not for most of the people that will read this.
[/quote]
I wish you were making an ironic post.

I like Gw2 too - but it could have been so much better - and it is by no means without flaws. There are MANY.

#9 Omedon

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

[quote name='Soki' timestamp='1355432817' post='2117259']
it is by no means without flaws. There are MANY.
[/quote]

Yep, there sure are, but those of us of the reasonable and mature persuasion realize we can work around them until they are fixed.

On topic, I'm glad to see them being so communicative about what they're doing in the day-to-day of dealing with the INEVITABLE issues that come up with a game this huge.  Big points for ArenaNet!

Unlike many, I appreciate what communication I get, as I realize I'm not entitled to it.  ArenaNet isn't entitled to my business either, but they earn it every time I log in and have fun.

Edited by Omedon, 13 December 2012 - 09:30 PM.

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#10 Senatic

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:34 PM

I didn't post in the thread, but I read it before it got moderated and I can tell you that there was some very civil criticism that by no means warranted removal.

TBH it looks like censoring to me. Yea sure there was a few posts that didn't stay within an acceptable line, and those should be removed, but there were posts that were removed that was simply asking for statements on certain issues that ArenaNet has been silent about.

#11 Bloodtau

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

It's too late for them.

[quote name='Senatic' timestamp='1355434472' post='2117292']
I didn't post in the thread, but I read it before it got moderated and I can tell you that there was some very civil criticism that by no means warranted removal.

TBH it looks like censoring to me. Yea sure there was a few posts that didn't stay within an acceptable line, and those should be removed, but there were posts that were removed that was simply asking for statements on certain issues that ArenaNet has been silent about.
[/quote]

That's the official forums for you. You get stuff removed and even banned if you don't portray the game in shining halo light.

#12 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

It is censoring.  Social media is recognized as being fairly powerful.  Where a forum used to be a place to foster a community, it's now a place where the rabble can organize.  Message control has been a cornerstone of marketing and public relations since their inception.  The reason Guild Wars never had one was because it didn't need one.  Once you moved beyond the box price, that was it.  Since GW2 is going to be a revenue stream for NCsoft, an official forums was necessary lest the rabble organize somewhere else where they have less control over the message.

If you look over in Tyrian Assembly, Guru is just the same 30 asshats (myself included) fobbing on about stuff.  Can you imagine the traffic if there were no official forums?
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#13 Omedon

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

[quote name='Senatic' timestamp='1355434472' post='2117292']
asking for statements on certain issues that ArenaNet has been silent about.
[/quote]

...is against their forum rules in the "directed at ArenaNet" capacity.
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#14 Soki

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:55 PM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355433720' post='2117276']
Yep, there sure are, but those of us of the reasonable and mature persuasion realize we can work around them until they are fixed.

On topic, I'm glad to see them being so communicative about what they're doing in the day-to-day of dealing with the INEVITABLE issues that come up with a game this huge.  Big points for ArenaNet!

Unlike many, I appreciate what communication I get, as I realize I'm not entitled to it.  ArenaNet isn't entitled to my business either, but they earn it every time I log in and have fun.
[/quote]
A good way for them to not get fixed is to not discuss them.

#15 Senatic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355435297' post='2117310']
...is against their forum rules in the "directed at ArenaNet" capacity.
[/quote]And how does that change anything?

Yes, it is ArenaNet's forum. Their house, their rules. They can manage it in whatever way they see fit and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. All of this is absolutely true, this does however not mean that what they are doing or how they conduct their business is beyond moral reproach. They are not gods, just because it's in their rules does not mean it's right.

Quite frankly, censorship of the kind that is going on on that forum is absolutely despicable and when I see that stuff I am ashamed to support them with my money.

Yeah, the guy who went on to personally attack the live team saying that their statements was BS because most of the bug fixes was actually just text updates to reflect the functionality of the skills, I understand them removing posts like this. It was not helpful, it did not contribute and it was not civil. But then they removed the post of the guy who very politely asked if there was any chance we could get some insight into the loot drops issues that are currently going on (ie worse drops was introduced instead of better). And he was completely civil, he was polite, he wasn't demanding an answer. It was a simple request for ArenaNet to answer a concern part of the community has been experiencing. And what do they do? They remove his post, probably gave him an infraction for posting it and continue to ignore the issue completely.

And I ask you, why? Because they said in the rules that asking for a statement is not acceptable? Yeah, that sounds awesome. A company that is completely beyond criticism, may never be questioned or called out and is beyond all responsibility towards its paying customers. That really sounds acceptable to you? Does that really sound like something anyone with the slightest sense of right and wrong would do?

If your answer is yes I will be very concerned.

#16 Hybarf Tics

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:01 AM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355431889' post='2117243']
Honestly, maybe I'll start hanging out there then, since I've all but given up on guru due to so much negativity over a game that I am absolutely loving, as are my entire guild.

The internet at large are not worthy of GW2's idealistic and highly reasonable and smart approach to development.  The biggest mistake made is that GW2 expected its vocal "fan base" to be civil on the internet.  The more draconian they get on their forums, the closer I'll get to having a new news and discussion home.  

This isn't a "head in the sand" mentality talking, I acknowledge that GW2 has its flaws, but the negativity that gets spewed at this well intended game for sane, reasonable, mature players that are given all the tools to make their own fun but instead expect it all to be mind numbing and unidirectional like other games is appalling.

The sooner the game's community slims down to those appreciative and worthy of what we have in GW2, the better.

It's not for everyone.  Heck, it's not for most of the people that will read this.
[/quote]

I totally agree with you but we live in the ungreatful, impolite, irrespectful, entitlement generation add to that the world of whiner's club (WoW for short :P ) and then people wonder why threads and posts get moved and closed.

[quote name='Senatic' timestamp='1355443298' post='2117427']
Quite frankly, censorship of the kind that is going on on that forum is absolutely despicable and when I see that stuff I am ashamed to support them with my money. [/quote]

More dispicable than the insults trown at them after 5 years working on a game with a genuine intent on pleasing fan, please give me a break. If this kind of total lack of respect and insults were directed at me I would have the same kind of censorship. A kind word and a constructive comment about a bug goes a long way towards keeping a thread open. I report bugs every day online without insults it's that easy. ;)

[quote name='Soki' timestamp='1355435744' post='2117317']
A good way for them to not get fixed is to not discuss them. [/quote]

You can discuss them all you want by simply adding a constructive and kind word here and there instead of pouring this kind of example; ( You fuc''n as...s wipe .... ........)

Edited by Hybarf Tics, 14 December 2012 - 01:36 AM.


#17 draxynnic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355433720' post='2117276']
Yep, there sure are, but those of us of the reasonable and mature persuasion realize we can work around them until they are fixed.
[/quote]There's a saying floating around that goes along the lines of "Reasonable people change to suit the world. It's the unreasonable people who change the world."

While I can certainly agree that some people could stand to be more civil, the game definitely does have its flaws, and fixing them would make the game better for everyone. And when you make a set of official forums, those become the official location for people to point out what those flaws are or to seek information on progress on addressing those flaws.
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#18 Omedon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

[quote name='draxynnic' timestamp='1355448964' post='2117487']
"Reasonable people change to suit the world. It's the unreasonable people who change the world."


[/quote]

Good thing we're only talking about a video game, then.
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#19 Soki

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 01:56 AM

[quote name='Omedon' timestamp='1355449731' post='2117501']
Good thing we're only talking about a video game, then.
[/quote]
The quote is still relevant. Semantics don't change that.

[quote name='Hybarf Tics' timestamp='1355446874' post='2117469']
You can discuss them all you want by simply adding a constructive and kind word here and there instead of pouring this kind of example; ( You fuc''n as...s wipe .... ........)
[/quote]
I've seen a lot of constructive discussion threads get locked by ANet, as a form of damage control.

Edited by Soki, 14 December 2012 - 02:05 AM.


#20 Omedon

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:13 AM

[quote name='Soki' timestamp='1355450200' post='2117505']

The quote is still relevant. Semantics don't change that.
[/quote]

Actually, the hyperbolic nature of the quote reinforces my angle.

The biggest mistake game developers have made is making their players' public and detatched Internet voices feel important.  Couple this with the consumer advocate stance that amplifies in these financial times, and everyone thinks they are and must be the one who will change the minds behind the game:

News flash: you aren't.

Vote with your wallet, report bugs and file tickets in game, but no matter what they tell you, no, uprisings and vitriolic ridiculousness that happens on game forums usually won't and arguably never should hold any true weight.  It's not a mob rule, the lunatics aren't running the asylum, and the only thing you've bought is the opportunity to experience the vision of the studio and the companies tied to it.  Don't like that?  Don't buy it, but I do not fault ArenaNet in the slightest for clamping down hard on forum blowhards.  

Bringing this conveniently back on topic, they are outright telling you that there is a team responding to tickets and issues in game.  The one-way communication you have there and beyond through bug reports is all that is needed, participation in a public discussion, in their space, is a privilege, not a right, and while we all also have the right to find that unacceptable and move on/stop paying, that doesn't change the fact that the "unreasonable" are disempowered to be rabble rousers in ArenaNet's official space.

And thank goodness for that.
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#21 whodini

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:24 AM

I read alot of the mez bug on forum. I don't do gs as of late but I pl
ayed gs enough to know how to use it.. was in curse shores. Did an event counting 6 of us. Right away 3 died in which we could not rez. At the end it was me and a guardian standing without dying. I was on a down. State once but quickly got myself up. Gs may have problems like they say berzerk isn't working and they are trying to fix. But I don't think gs is a must have. Finding leap and phase retreat great skills and utilizing the combo fields for chaos armor which can be combo to other players does amazing things.  Mez still run strong. If pol. I do intend on playing around with gs just to se the bug. Stool having no problem with my mez. Strong character! :)

#22 Majic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

Please tell me mobs turning invulnerable, instant respawns and short-leash tag-teaming are high-priority bugs that are at the top of their list.

#23 Lordkrall

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostMajic, on 14 December 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

Please tell me mobs turning invulnerable, instant respawns and short-leash tag-teaming are high-priority bugs that are at the top of their list.

In the few cases that I have had a mob turn invulnerable it has simply been in situation where they could not reach me, and that is not a bug, it is working as intended. So I don't think it is that high on the priority list

#24 whodini

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:26 AM

For those with"I want it now" attitudes. Go developed and put yourself in there shoes. Its just a game and I'm pretty sure anet is doing there best to keep the players they have. I read alot of this forum and many pol sound like a kid in a candy shop. As if the world ends tomorrow. There is a way to get your point across than telling pol there direct criticism. It is still a new game and remember the star trek launch. Losing alot of money off of mistakes. Companies don't want to get that publicity and I'm Sure anet is trying to be careful to not let that happen. Game is still new enough and don't have the Rep yet for those type of errors. They can't afford that. Yes there are some bugs or changes even mistakes made. Myself,  I am happy they are fixing things and still have the playability and mechanics at this point. I see a drastic change from the time of launch

#25 TooBoredForAName

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 07:29 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

In the few cases that I have had a mob turn invulnerable it has simply been in situation where they could not reach me, and that is not a bug, it is working as intended. So I don't think it is that high on the priority list

Yeah? Like underwater combat with Spears? When you start to fight standing still, grab the mob or go to it with a skill and after 2-3 seconds of auto attack the mob goes invulnerable and resets?
Or when using any weapon, always underwater, and just trying to  dodge/avoid/kite the mob's attack it ends up with the stupid mob AI making it moving to the negative side of the world geometry, thus making it reset?

Anyway it's good if they can resume an healthy constructive dialogue with the community, because as far as today they've just shut down threads being just slight critic with their agenda, as someone wrote in a previous post here as a pure damage control policy, which is NOT AT ALL the base for an healthy constructive dialogue with the community but rather is for a police state.

Now a guy above wrote that

View PostOmedon, on 14 December 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

The biggest mistake game developers have made is making their players' public and detatched Internet voices feel important.  Couple this with the consumer advocate stance that amplifies in these financial times, and everyone thinks they are and must be the one who will change the minds behind the game:

News flash: you aren't.

Oh dear you are so wrong...
Would these "developers" you are talking about developers of heavy industry goods ...alike weapon systems i'd agree with you (nonetheless if not consumers they still would had customers to satisfy, and i sincerely don't know what is worse, if having to deal with a disordered crowd or with an elite of specialists), but since ANet developes a mmo then the social reaction is decisive and discriminant for their business, and any good business is the one who makes the most happy both the sides of the trade, not being biased toward one end only.
So you see how finding a common ground for both the parts is better for a business to expand, rather than for a the company being defensive and protective censoring the viral communication which might appear on their own forums.

So even if the game is good, but if it has some flaw that can be corrected with time like any other product, their communication denying the public discussion of these possible flaws is so BAD that it will hurt them in the end if they continue on this line.

PS: i  didn't read the comments deleted on the official thread linked in the OP, but i like they deleted constructive comments and yet left this one ^^

Quote

Metafrank.9017:
"“Live Response Team” – That sounds awesome.
Way better than “Perpetual Beta Hotfixing Squad” or “Bananaware Farmers”.
Kudos."

Edited by TooBoredForAName, 14 December 2012 - 07:43 AM.


#26 Senatic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

View PostHybarf Tics, on 14 December 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

More dispicable than the insults trown at them after 5 years working on a game with a genuine intent on pleasing fan, please give me a break. If this kind of total lack of respect and insults were directed at me I would have the same kind of censorship. A kind word and a constructive comment about a bug goes a long way towards keeping a thread open. I report bugs every day online without insults it's that easy. ;)
Did you actually read my comment? Or did you just jump to conclusions and decide to assume what I was trying to say.

Constructive comments phrased in a civil and polite way will not help you on their forum. You will get infracted and punished for carrying about their game. There are certain topics that will get censored no matter how friendly and kind you are.

If you re read my post you'll see that I said that there were certain posts in that thread that most definitely deserved to be removed. I am not saying people get to behave in whatever childish manner they see fit, as you seem to be suggesting. So please, stop replying to me with strawman arguments.

Edited by Senatic, 14 December 2012 - 09:34 AM.


#27 Im Legion

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:06 AM

I don't see why they would want to keep critical posts on their forums. Forums are one of the most important places to draw in new customers that are checking out their product; if they're full of negativity you can lose a lot of potential customers. The outrage amazes me as any sensible company would remove critical posts from their forums however 'unfair' this might be deemed. Obviously there are still many bugs present in the game and there are ways to communicate them to the company without using the forums. Public official forums is where they want people discussing how to best do X and Y, or answer questions from newbies, not abuse their product.

There are plenty of sites available to do that. If I see a lot of bad comments even on the official forums of a site, I know they stopped even caring about moderating the forums, let alone what it says about the rest of the game. While they still care about how people perceive their product, they are still willing to improve it. Once they stop doing that, the game does not have a bright future.

#28 Senatic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

View PostIm Legion, on 14 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

I don't see why they would want to keep critical posts on their forums. Forums are one of the most important places to draw in new customers that are checking out their product
No they're not. New people don't look at forums? Generally speaking not even 1/10th of the player population ever visits the forums. Much less researches the community before buying a game. That's just silly to even suggest.

Not to speak of the fact that twitter and facebook is much bigger and much more casually used mediums to garner information. If they were gonna do what you describe it would make sense in those places, but in forums? Makes absolutely no sense. A very small minority of people will ever see what's going on in the official forums. It is a place to have a discussions and in depth debates that can not happen in other places like facebook and twitter. Not a place to be censored to maintain a positive public view.

Edited by Senatic, 14 December 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#29 Soki

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

View PostOmedon, on 14 December 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

Actually, the hyperbolic nature of the quote reinforces my angle.

The biggest mistake game developers have made is making their players' public and detatched Internet voices feel important.  Couple this with the consumer advocate stance that amplifies in these financial times, and everyone thinks they are and must be the one who will change the minds behind the game:

News flash: you aren't.

Vote with your wallet, report bugs and file tickets in game, but no matter what they tell you, no, uprisings and vitriolic ridiculousness that happens on game forums usually won't and arguably never should hold any true weight.  It's not a mob rule, the lunatics aren't running the asylum, and the only thing you've bought is the opportunity to experience the vision of the studio and the companies tied to it.  Don't like that?  Don't buy it, but I do not fault ArenaNet in the slightest for clamping down hard on forum blowhards.  

Bringing this conveniently back on topic, they are outright telling you that there is a team responding to tickets and issues in game.  The one-way communication you have there and beyond through bug reports is all that is needed, participation in a public discussion, in their space, is a privilege, not a right, and while we all also have the right to find that unacceptable and move on/stop paying, that doesn't change the fact that the "unreasonable" are disempowered to be rabble rousers in ArenaNet's official space.

And thank goodness for that.
Do you even recognize what you're saying?
"Vote with your wallet"
The only sum I've dropped on GW2 was to buy it.
"Players shouldn't have a voice on how the game develops"
It shipped as a sub-par game. Agree or not, at ton more players than you think so.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with players voicing their issues with a game - particularly one so systemically flawed as GW2 launched as.

Go back to 1984, you'd fit in well with Orwell's vision.

#30 Majic

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 14 December 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

In the few cases that I have had a mob turn invulnerable it has simply been in situation where they could not reach me, and that is not a bug, it is working as intended. So I don't think it is that high on the priority list

Given the very real and continuing nature of this problem, I can only hope the good folks of ArenaNet are better at solving problems than this.





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