95 replies to this topic

[Abusabus]

So how bad is this?  I know we gained sigil use but does that really justify a 30% nerf?

[lolevy]

Nope.

Simple as that.

[Gerroh]

Yeah, I saw this and thought "A sigil equates to 30% of your damage? Gtfo Anet". No idea what they were thinking.

[hungryolred]

30% is steep dmg reduction. What sigil could possibly compensate for any weapon taking that big of a dip? Now let's watch a sigil price skyrocket. I'm bitter, just finished engi last week for a rifle/gren build. Blah

[doooknoookem]

Yeah not too happy with this change. Anet posted a response saying that they didnt wanna make large changes but 30% reduction is a huge loss. Grenadiers essentially lost 1/3 of their dmg. Sadly, Grenades still probably output more dmg than flamethrower or turret builds. Guess if we want to have high damage, the static discharge build is the way to go.

[Calebrus]

The problem with Nades is that Grenadier is too powerful.
That trait takes one of our strongest Kits and adds 50% effectiveness on top of it.
The problem with balancing Nades is because they have to attempt to make them viable without being traited,  while not making  traited Nades overpowered.  It's an extremely difficult tightrope to walk.  One could argue that it will be impossible to do both with Grenadier in it's current form.

A 30% reduction for traited Nades is acceptable.  That same 30% reduction for untraited Nades is now a kit killer.
Previously, Grenadier was extremely recommended, but not mandatory.  It is now practically mandatory if you want to use grenades.

What they need to do is leave the damage as it was, and change Grenadier from always throwing a third grenade to instead have a percent chance (say 40-50% or so) to allow that third grenade.
That would solve all of the Grenadier woes.  It would keep Nades attractive while untraited, while also making the trait attractive.... but without making it mandatory.

In short:  They keep nerfing Grenades, but Grenades were fine to start with and the thing that needed a nerf was the Grenadier trait.

Edited by Calebrus, 15 December 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[FoxBat]

Calebrus, on 15 December 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

In short:  They keep nerfing Grenades, but Grenades were fine to start with and the thing that needed a nerf was the Grenadier trait.

Agree. No other trait says "You deal 50% more damage and proc 50% more often." No matter how you balance grenades, that kind of trait is fundamentally unbalanced. It should not be a crutch that the kit has to lean on.

OTOH this way, grenades still have a good boss condition damage niche, for maxing out vuln and bleeds. They should also now be the best at proccing crit sigils.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 December 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[Majic]

30% reduction in Grenade Kit #1 basically makes Grenadier's "autoattack" what untraited was before. Interesting.

I've been playing Grenadier in the mid 60s lately, so I'll have a chance to compare before/after feel pretty well. Sounds awful, but it was pretty hot before.

I suppose I'll see once the patch downloads (slow connection here).



P.S. Regarding Grenadier, I think a better way to balance would be to always throw three grenades, adjust damage downward accordingly, then have Grenadier add a fourth grenade in addition to the range buff. It would still add 25% with that extra grenade, which is a lot, but the untraited kit would still be decent and the procs would go up overall, which would be a buff, but it would be offset by the damage nerfs.

Or somethin'

Edited by Majic, 15 December 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[matsif]

what an absolute joke.  I'd have rather not had the useless sigils.

thanks a lot crybabies, what worked fine before today is now nerfed because "wahh I want sigils."  We didn't even get weapon stats, which actually has a reasonable argument going for it (loss of hp and/or toughness).  But you all cried, and got your way, and I hope you're happy with losing 30% of damage over a sigil.

Edited by matsif, 15 December 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Calebrus]

Majic, on 15 December 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

P.S. Regarding Grenadier, I think a better way to balance would be to always throw three grenades, adjust damage downward accordingly, then have Grenadier add a fourth grenade in addition to the range buff. It would still add 25% with that extra grenade, which is a lot, but the untraited kit would still be decent and the procs would go up overall, which would be a buff, but it would be offset by the damage nerfs.

Or somethin'

The damage nerf was obviously designed to reduce the effectiveness in an attempt to oppose on crit sigils.
Adding a third guaranteed proc, and a possible fourth when triated, is not the solution to this problem.  That would compound the problem instead.
Reducing the proc from a guaranteed third to a possible third is the solution to this problem.

This keeps untraited Nades viable, addresses the on crit sigil issue, and keeps Grenadier attractive but not mandatory.

matsif, on 15 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

what an absolute joke.  I'd have rather not had the useless sigils.

thanks a lot crybabies, what worked fine before today is now nerfed because "wahh I want sigils."  We didn't even get weapon stats, which actually has a reasonable argument going for it (loss of hp and/or toughness).  But you all cried, and got your way, and I hope you're happy with losing 30% of damage over a sigil.

Weapon stats are next. They wanted to get sigils in first because they promote build diversity.  But weapon stats are coming.
How about instead of whining about it, you suggest a possible solution?
I find it ironic that you're whining in the same post you call others crybabies.  It amuses me.

Edited by Calebrus, 15 December 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[Ragnadaam]

matsif, on 15 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

what an absolute joke.  I'd have rather not had the useless sigils.

thanks a lot crybabies, what worked fine before today is now nerfed because "wahh I want sigils."  We didn't even get weapon stats, which actually has a reasonable argument going for it (loss of hp and/or toughness).  But you all cried, and got your way, and I hope you're happy with losing 30% of damage over a sigil.

I can't believe you're attempting to blame other Engineers for rightfully wanting sigils on kits, rather than laying the blame solely at the feet of Anet for this ludicrous nerf.

[Majic]

Calebrus, on 15 December 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

The damage nerf was obviously designed to reduce the effectiveness in an attempt to oppose on crit sigils.
Adding a third guaranteed proc, and a possible fourth when triated, is not the solution to this problem.  That would compound the problem instead.
Reducing the proc from a guaranteed third to a possible third is the solution to this problem.

This keeps untraited Nades viable, addresses the on crit sigil issue, and keeps Grenadier attractive but not mandatory.

Almost all on-crit sigils already have internal cooldowns, so the proc rate for them is somewhat moot as it stands.

Also, the Flamethrower is a much bigger fish when it comes to sigil procs. If anything, 3-4 nades would put the grenade kit more in line with the Flamethrower for procs.

The main reason I think 3 base grenades plus a fourth for Grenadier makes sense is that it would reduce the step-up to Grenadier without introducing unnecessary randomness to the attacks. Admittedly a matter of preference, and maybe ArenaNet would prefer randomness, but I think 3-4 grenades would be more elegant.

Edited by Majic, 15 December 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Ragnadaam]

Majic, on 15 December 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Almost all on-crit sigils already have internal cooldowns, so the proc rate for them is somewhat moot as it stands.

Also, the Flamethrower is a much bigger fish when it comes to sigil procs. If anything, 3-4 nades would put the grenade kit more in line with the Flamethrower for procs.

The main reason I think 3 base grenades plus a fourth for Grenadier makes sense is that it would reduce the step-up to Grenadier without introducing unnecessary randomness to the attacks. Admittedly a matter of preference, and maybe ArenaNet would prefer randomness, but I think 3-4 grenades would be more elegant.

I think this might be bugged. I just did some testing with the Flamethrower and 1 Superior Sigil of Earth, and just using FT #1 is very rapidly, consistently getting 5-8 stacks of bleed and keeping them up.

[FoxBat]

Ragnadaam, on 15 December 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

I think this might be bugged. I just did some testing with the Flamethrower and 1 Superior Sigil of Earth, and just using FT #1 is very rapidly, consistently getting 5-8 stacks of bleed and keeping them up.

You likely have 5 points in firearms. I can't get above 3 stacks with bleed runes and rabid.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 December 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[legendFinal]

Wait, I just wanna confirm.  Only the "Grenade" skill, which is the grenade's kit #1 skill, that is nerfed right?  Not tool belt and other 2-5 nades??

[Ragnadaam]

FoxBat, on 15 December 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

You likely have 5 points in firearms. I can't get above 3 stacks with bleed runes and rabid.

I didn't think about that *facepalm*.

[draxynnic]

FoxBat, on 15 December 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

Agree. No other trait says "You deal 50% more damage and proc 50% more often." No matter how you balance grenades, that kind of trait is fundamentally unbalanced. It should not be a crutch that the kit has to lean on.

OTOH this way, grenades still have a good boss condition damage niche, for maxing out vuln and bleeds. They should also now be the best at proccing crit sigils.

Also agreed. Grenadier probably really needs to be a flat increase in the damage, and maybe the area as well. Then they could get rid of the current sillyness of throwing multiple grenades at once and put it back to a more physically reasonable one grenade at a time.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

I'm for this, actually.  Grenade condition damage is even better now with Shrapnel and sigil buffs, and for direct damage grenades aren't so OP that nothing else is worth taking anymore either.  Time to do some NUMBERS.

[Majic]

Indeed. I had been pushing power on my Grenadier (and it was working great). Now maybe it's time to take another look at condition stacking.

[CepaCepa]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 15 December 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm for this, actually.  Grenade condition damage is even better now with Shrapnel and sigil buffs, and for direct damage grenades aren't so OP that nothing else is worth taking anymore either.  Time to do some NUMBERS.

I just finished a dungeon run with rampager/rabid and sigil of the earth. Indeed, condition damage build for grenades is now superior to direct damage in almost all scenarios. I don't think you'd even need to do those numbers to prove that now lol, 30% by itself would push condition damage ahead of direct damage on even trash mobs (hence, lower armor), neverminding the on-proc sigil with no internal CD (sigil of the earth) adding significantly to the bleed stacking. What more, with a buff to shrapnel and the significant reduction to grenade #1, it is now a lot easier to take 20% CD reduction over 10% explosion damage, further buffing the grenade condition spec.

The problem in my dungeon run was that, bleed never dropped below 25 stacks. Our ranger was keeping up 10-15 stacks without me, and I don't think he's even condition damage specced, he's just using a lynx. I told the other members to try to minimize bleed, but I mean realistically, some of them can't even really avoid it. We ran with the same group setup as we've always farmed before (HotW exp 3 path), and the 3 path run took 10 min longer (90 min instead of our typical 75-80 min), it is noticeable. Overall, I think although this could prove to be a dps INCREASE for condition damage grenade sets, it's time to visit some of the less damage dealing options like double pistol elixir dps/support build, at least it won't cap on bleed. After 1200+ hours of playing, I'm saddened that condition damage is still facing the same problem that it had faced all these time. As of now, I think it's actually not productive at all to put so many stats and traits into condition damage when it gets capped anyways --- The difference is, due to direct damage being nerfed significantly, there's no "ways around" the issue so to speak, so stats are better off going to things like boon duration perhaps. That way at least every bit of your stat counts, instead of some of them going to waste.

Edited by CepaCepa, 15 December 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[Budzasty]

Oh for those that were happy about #2 and #5 getting damage, hate to spoil it, but damage is cosmetic - think 90 for smoke and 150 for poison. Regular grenade was 370 before nerf for comparison.

I'll still use grenades in WvW as they are superior to anything when it comes to attacking the wall(pushing defenders and destroying siege in 1500 range). But I'm seriously considering use of them in PvE and overall playing engi.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Budzasty, on 15 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Oh for those that were happy about #2 and #5 getting damage, hate to spoil it, but damage is cosmetic - think 90 for smoke and 150 for poison. Regular grenade was 370 before nerf for comparison.

I'll still use grenades in WvW as they are superior to anything when it comes to attacking the wall(pushing defenders and destroying siege in 1500 range). But I'm seriously considering use of them in PvE and overall playing engi.

It makes a big difference since they can proc on-crit stuff now.

[Cures]

a question on sigils (as an engineer-only player i never bothered with them much): arent p/p and p/s superior to the rifle now in any case? or does the offhand sigil not work/not stack? ty.

[dawdler]

30% is pretty harse damage reduction... But isnt the the grenades *very* powerfull now with on-crit sigils? Or do the grenades only count as one crit calculation? Even more interesting if two on-crit sigils stack.

Edited by dawdler, 15 December 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Mif]

dawdler, on 15 December 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

30% is pretty harse damage reduction... But isnt the the grenades *very* powerfull now with on-crit sigils? Or do the grenades only count as one crit calculation? Even more interesting if two on-crit sigils stack.

On crit sigils have build in cooldowns.
It doesn't matter how many attacks you're doing, every 2 seconds is still only every 2 seconds.

[Desert Rose]

Come on, guys, we had the Grenade Kit damage nerf coming. Just take a quick look at this thread, the Grenade Kit which grants weapon skills that hit up to 5 foes for full damage dealt against each single foe more damage than most or even any other option the Engineer had.
The Sigils are not there to compensate the 30% damage nerf, it was just implemented at the same time to avoid at least some of the whine and rage that would follow the damage nerf.

[Cures]

Desert Rose, on 15 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Come on, guys, we had the Grenade Kit damage nerf coming. Just take a quick look at this thread, the Grenade Kit which grants weapon skills that hit up to 5 foes for full damage dealt against each single foe more damage than most or even any other option the Engineer had.
The Sigils are not there to compensate the 30% damage nerf, it was just implemented at the same time to avoid at least some of the whine and rage that would follow the damage nerf.

thank god there are sane people here still.

[Budzasty]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 15 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

It makes a big difference since they can proc on-crit stuff now.

Still it wouldn't hurt if they got full damage(so bout 350 a pop), considering we got heavy nerf to #1. Grenades for dps looks poor now with only two skills with okay damage, require heavy traiting and at least I won't be using them in PvE.

Two best on-crit sigils - fire and air have both 5s internal cooldowns. Too lazy to search but I suspect other sigils have those cooldowns as well. So while you'll pop sigil every 5s nearly always you only have 2 meaningful grenade damage skills left - #2 and #4. Damage from such sigils is iirc bout 1k so considering you do about 450 less on each #1 toss you will lose damage this way anyways. Of course you are also forced into using air/fire sigils or you will get behind even more.

Desert Rose, on 15 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Come on, guys, we had the Grenade Kit damage nerf coming. Just take a quick look at this thread, the Grenade Kit which grants weapon skills that hit up to 5 foes for full damage dealt against each single foe more damage than most or even any other option the Engineer had.
The Sigils are not there to compensate the 30% damage nerf, it was just implemented at the same time to avoid at least some of the whine and rage that would follow the damage nerf.

And this would be a good reason to offer buff to other engi weapons. Also it's not like you don't have to trait heavily into grenades to have at least shot at good dps, stock grenades are useless kit now.

[CepaCepa]

Desert Rose, on 15 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Come on, guys, we had the Grenade Kit damage nerf coming. Just take a quick look at this thread, the Grenade Kit which grants weapon skills that hit up to 5 foes for full damage dealt against each single foe more damage than most or even any other option the Engineer had.
The Sigils are not there to compensate the 30% damage nerf, it was just implemented at the same time to avoid at least some of the whine and rage that would follow the damage nerf.

Cures, on 15 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

thank god there are sane people here still.

The problem is, the other kits are still horrible... I mean, grenades were long forecasted to receive a nerf (and actually, it's barely a nerf at all for condition grenades), but there's just no other viable damage options that is respectable compared to other professions.

Simply put, what do I do now with my berserker set? Sure I've got rampager/rabid set and I've got soldier set too, but do I just throw my berserker set in the bank, all 12 pieces of them + rifle? Which means I'd need to purchase another bank tab lol... (Hey, maybe this is what ANet is trying to do!) I'm giving flamethrower another try tomorrow, but not optimistic at all, and I think it's very likely that bank is the only destination these 40 gold worth of exotics have...

[FoxBat]

Bleed grandes are kind of niche though. Great for attrition against tough dungeon foes, kinda blah for exploding open world trash, or quick tagging, or when up against the condition cap... You will still want power for that kind of activity, even if you have to find a different kit.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 December 2012 - 12:24 PM.