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Grenades #1, 30% damage reduction...how bad?

grenades nerf

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#31 Coren

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

Gives me an excuse to go back to my FT/elixir gun build. Should still work for backup tank with bombs.

Don't forget they intend on putting weapon stats in later to affect kits.

#32 Leeto

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Grenades had over top dmg = -15%
Sigils = -5 % dmg
Poison + Blind grenade does dmg now = -10 % dmg

Im just happy that now i can use other weapons too on my engineer cause grenade dmg aint ridiculous anymore.

#33 Targanwolf

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

Is this A nets idea about fixing a class that was already a one trick pony ?

the game is losing players and this is going to bring players back ?

#34 Budzasty

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostLeeto, on 15 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Grenades had over top dmg = -15%
Sigils = -5 % dmg
Poison + Blind grenade does dmg now = -10 % dmg

Im just happy that now i can use other weapons too on my engineer cause grenade dmg aint ridiculous anymore.
So you are happy that engi does less damage?  o_O

I mean sure if other kits got boost then I can understand, but they are still same and sigils won't make them that much better.

#35 Abusabus

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

View PostLeeto, on 15 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Grenades had over top dmg = -15%
Sigils = -5 % dmg
Poison + Blind grenade does dmg now = -10 % dmg

Im just happy that now i can use other weapons too on my engineer cause grenade dmg aint ridiculous anymore.

So now you can do bad damage with other kits too?  Yes having one viable kit wasn't good but at least we had one viable kit :(

#36 ZCKS

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

A 30% nerf to the kits damage was overkill really,

Maybe 10% but 30% is just crazy.

On the + side though if your specced for grenades at least each attack will have 3 chances to proc a sigil which could work amazingly well when combined with sigil of blood, sigil of strength etc...

#37 Diet

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

I would really like to know if they had numbers punched in for kits + sigils and if they changed them according to that. I would like to see a patch where we are happy with the end result instead of making a " yay we got this fixed, but now we have this to complain about"

#38 Isti

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 12:35 AM

It's very telling to look at Anet's class philosophies posted on the official forums (here).  I'll quote the relevant bits.

Quote

Engineer
  • The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.
So you see, we are supposed to deal gimped damage, apparently.  It's part of the devs' design philosophy for the class.  If we don't like that, we are apparently SOL.  On the other hand, look at what they have to say about Elementalists:

Quote

Ele
  • We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elementalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.
So those of us who rolled an Engineer for its versatility, maybe we were supposed to be playing Eles all along.  They are even more versatile than Engis, and they aren't gimped to pay for it either.  The Grenade skill nerf doesn't really bother me.  Skills get balanced and rebalanced all the time.  It's the built-in philosophy that THIS class (and no other) must be gimped in one of its roles that makes me consider playing something else as a main.  :(

Edited by Isti, 16 December 2012 - 12:41 AM.


#39 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

View PostZCKS, on 15 December 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

A 30% nerf to the kits damage was overkill really,

Maybe 10% but 30% is just crazy.

On the + side though if your specced for grenades at least each attack will have 3 chances to proc a sigil which could work amazingly well when combined with sigil of blood, sigil of strength etc...

No idea where you came up with "kits", it was one skill.  Flamethrower, Bomb Kit, Tool Kit, etc., were not changed.  In fact everything else benefits.  Do you ever stop and wonder why everyone was crutching on Grenade Kit?  It wasn't because it was balanced along with all the damage skills available.

"“Grenade” skill now does 30% less damage to balance against using sigils."

Edited by TGIFrisbie, 16 December 2012 - 02:00 AM.


#40 Featherman

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

Sigil of strength is amazing on Engies now. I can definitely see their reasoning for nerfing grenades as much as they did. On the other hand, grenade engies will be pigeonholed into using them. Better grab you sigils before their prices skyrocket :P

#41 FoxBat

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:03 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 16 December 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Sigil of strength is amazing on Engies now. I can definitely see their reasoning for nerfing grenades as much as they did. On the other hand, grenade engies will be pigeonholed into using them. Better grab you sigils before their prices skyrocket :P

2 second ICD says not really. You're looking at 5 stacks in the absolute best case scenario, and you might as well run sigil of battle instead for 6.

Edited by FoxBat, 16 December 2012 - 03:03 AM.


#42 4arsie4

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:14 AM

Yeah, between Sigil of Battle, 5 on the Med Kit, and Elixir B, I can have 6-8 Stacks of Might up most of the time.

I would really like to see the DPS difference that would make compared to the Sigil of Earth, though.

I personally opted for Battle because I don't have much Condition Damage in my gear.

#43 Warmaster Bacon

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:23 AM

I find the the grenade kit now kills at the same rate as the flamethrower but from a farther range, but its harder to use on moving targets. i like the idea of having the trait to have a chance to throw in extra grenade instead. seems like a much nicer idea. Right now I'm completely confused on how to build up my engi, right now its condition gear, and I'm thinking going to crit instead.

#44 Budzasty

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:55 AM

I'd like to point one thing for all theory and number crunching. Grenades are skill shot, which means you have to put the effort to hit with them, and target have to ignore red circle. Easily to experience when you target fast moving mob in PvE, like risen thrall iirc. In every game skill shots give higher reward because they are harder to land. Can't really compare them to say rifle #1 shot as it's much easier to land.

#45 Desert Rose

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

View PostAbusabus, on 15 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

So now you can do bad damage with other kits too?  Yes having one viable kit wasn't good but at least we had one viable kit
A Berserker Grenade Kit Engineer could get up to around 1.4k to 1.8k direct damage and a couple of hundreds of condition damage. What other profession besides the Warrior can deal 2k+ DPS constantly? And against up to 5 foes?
Even after the nerf a Carrion Grenade Kit Engineer gets close to 1k direct damage and around 0.5k to 1.5k condition damage, depending on how long a fight goes on. What other professions deal that amount of damage? What other weapon sets or kits of Engineers do?
What sucks though is that grenade Engineers are now forced to compete for the condition damage slot in a party.

On the other hand Greande Kit burst was improved; Grenade Kit #2 is back to its old value and on top of that affected by Sigils, Grenade Barrage is still as strong as before but affected by Sigils, too.

#46 CepaCepa

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

View PostDesert Rose, on 16 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

A Berserker Grenade Kit Engineer could get up to around 1.4k to 1.8k direct damage and a couple of hundreds of condition damage. What other profession besides the Warrior can deal 2k+ DPS constantly? And against up to 5 foes?
Even after the nerf a Carrion Grenade Kit Engineer gets close to 1k direct damage and around 0.5k to 1.5k condition damage, depending on how long a fight goes on. What other professions deal that amount of damage? What other weapon sets or kits of Engineers do?
What sucks though is that grenade Engineers are now forced to compete for the condition damage slot in a party.

On the other hand Greande Kit burst was improved; Grenade Kit #2 is back to its old value and on top of that affected by Sigils, Grenade Barrage is still as strong as before but affected by Sigils, too.

Before the nerf, on LA target dummies my berserker engi does around 550 to 600 damage per grenade, that's indeed 1.8K not counting crits and obviously not counting conditions. And that is indeed solid nice numbers, especially compared to other kits.

But now compared to my berserker mesmer, whose phantasms each hitting for 2.8K on the target dummy (no crits no conditions), and attack every 5 seconds. I can have 3 of them up within 16 seconds, that means by the 16th second I'd be attacking with greatsword at about 1.5K dps none crit, PLUS 2.8X3/5 = around 1.6K dps from phantasms, not counting shatter and conditions. That's a total of over 3K dps, none crit ---- And, phantasms get constant fury for mesmers, also in dungeons iWarlock is known to hit for 10K+ quite often due to condition stacking on bosses, so adding in the realistic situations just edges out the mesmer dps further. And the particular phantasm that I was talking about (iBerserker) does aoe whirl too, though admittedly, if there are 5 mobs standing there, no doubt the engi still wins out hands down (The mesmer can still shatter to do big aoe burst, but grenades are steady and heavy aoe destruction that cannot be surpassed). In single target situations, the biggest edge that engi has over mesmer is that mesmer takes time to set up but grenade damage can spike up from start to finish.

Elementalist, similarly, can go just as high if built for damage, and they are on-par with engi for aoe damage too. Though I'd say pre-nerf the engi still had an edge because ele's aoe skills takes longer to re-allocate, such that in reality engi aoe lands a lot better. Also, attunement CD is something that can easily mess up the dps of an ele.

Ranger, the dps lies in weapon swap and pet swap, or in other words maximum fury and quickness uptime. 2K isn't difficult for a ranger to reach at all, single target that is. However, survivability of either the ranger himself or his pet is the real concern. For all intents and purposes, let's just say grenade has an edge over rangers simply because it is more reliable.

But that is before the nerf, of course.

After the nerf, we can still do quite high numbers --- But not in berserker anymore. And because of condition capping in dungeons it indeed sucks as you've mentioned... :( The other direct damage options just don't come close to grenades in the good ol days, which means now ANY direct damage build from an engi would be inferior to several professions. Perhaps not the worst, there's always necro. I'm getting a feeling that ANet wants us to be a "condition profession" so that necros don't feel too lonely...

Just single target damage alone, it was somewhat balanced before, actually. Grenade was a bit too good because it handles every situation equally as good, it has conditions and it has direct damage, it has insane range and it can be casted in melee too without penalty, it is good single target dps and it's king of aoe, it also synergize very well with traits due to 3 grenade having high proc chance --- it just has too many things going on, NOT that any of them are particularly overpowered compared to other professions. Mesmers have to switch to GS or sword for aoe situations, eles have to switch cast sequence/attunement swap on the fly depending on the number of mobs/type of mobs/group support, warriors who want to live to tell the tale have to switch between rifle and greatsword obviously, yet grenade does everything by itself, so that's where it certainly felt "OP". But in the current direction, we're simply being pushed from using berserker to using rampager/rabid and hoping that there isn't a necro/another engi/condition ele in the group....

I'm not complaining though, I'm going to be patient and wait for that weapon stat that they promised us! :) Or for them to fix our other kits... Something. For now I guess the "trend" is conditions, so I'm going to do just that lol.

#47 coglin

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostTarganwolf, on 15 December 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Is this A nets idea about fixing a class that was already a one trick pony ?

the game is losing players and this is going to bring players back ?
This game is losing players in the natural level, in the natural coarse that MMOs due after launch. Do not attempt to foolishly misrepresent that by attempting to suggest it has to do with an engineer change. That is just foolish.

#48 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:47 PM

I can maintain 25 stacks easily with grenade spam and Sigil of Earth now.  I don't see how this can be considered a nerf in any way.

#49 Ragnadaam

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 16 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I can maintain 25 stacks easily with grenade spam and Sigil of Earth now.  I don't see how this can be considered a nerf in any way.

Agreed. I was really pissed at first, but when you look at the bigger picture, the kit is fine, and in almost every way better than before. It went from a few utility grenades combined with spamming #1 for high damage, to an excellent condition kit now, arguably better than the Bomb Kit in every way now.

#50 draxynnic

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:26 AM

View PostIsti, on 16 December 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

It's very telling to look at Anet's class philosophies posted on the official forums (here).  I'll quote the relevant bits.

So you see, we are supposed to deal gimped damage, apparently.  It's part of the devs' design philosophy for the class.  If we don't like that, we are apparently SOL.  On the other hand, look at what they have to say about Elementalists:

So those of us who rolled an Engineer for its versatility, maybe we were supposed to be playing Eles all along.  They are even more versatile than Engis, and they aren't gimped to pay for it either.  The Grenade skill nerf doesn't really bother me.  Skills get balanced and rebalanced all the time.  It's the built-in philosophy that THIS class (and no other) must be gimped in one of its roles that makes me consider playing something else as a main.  :(
What the statement about elementalists doesn't say (coming from the perspective of having played engineer and elementalist up to ~50) is that they have all the durability of a wet paper bag. I'm also not convinced that elementalist area of effect damage is all that great compared to what an engineer can achieve with the FT as long as it doesn't bug out.

In my experience with a FT/EG engineer, it can achieve similar sustained damage to an elementalist and the same degree of versatility - perhaps, in fact, more since the engineer doesn't find itself at quarter health and its F6 skill on recharge if a monster just looks at it sideways. The one thing I think elementalists have that engineers don't is the ability to go nova and quickly burn down a group of weak enemies while soloing, but the elementalist needs that when soloing because it often becomes a race of who's health pool empties first (okay, that's the case for many, but with elementalists it's more like a hundred metre sprint - and if there's anything left after the elementalist has blown its wad, it can fall in a heap).

Of the two, I've been finding the engineer to be a lot more reliable and generall enjoyable and effective - the only reason they've remained relatively steady is that the elementalist is with an order whose storyline I haven't finished yet. There's a good chance that once the elementalist completes the second Battle of Claw Island, it'll find itself on indefinite hiatus while the engineer shoots ahead.
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#51 Diet

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:35 AM

View Postdraxynnic, on 17 December 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

What the statement about elementalists doesn't say (coming from the perspective of having played engineer and elementalist up to ~50) is that they have all the durability of a wet paper bag.
Tank D/D ele is a very good tank and has amazing survivability and does good damage. ATM  I find my ele to be a lot more useful than my engineer when it comes to pve or WvW since. I can take more damage, run away, chase people down, heal/cleanse allies.... Maybe I'm not running the right build on my engineer, but damn he feels weak compared to ele

#52 coglin

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

View PostDiet, on 17 December 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Tank D/D ele is a very good tank and has amazing survivability and does good damage.
LOL....Compared to what? I can build necros that will out tank any ele build you make in every way. I can build en engineer with more Hp, more toughness, and more healing. I can make a guardian that had more hp/tough/healing. The only thing a ele can out tank is mesmers and rangers period. But I guess that is niether here nor there because this isn't an ele thread.

#53 pumpkin pie

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:16 AM

I think 30% is too much of a punishment.

first of all, all 5 of  the granades skills needs targeting with your mouse, unlike some skills that some other professions have, where you just sit and press 12345.

even when you are in pvp, wvw, you rarely have a chance that 5 players will clump together for you to target.

secondly, when foes are targeted theres a red circle that you can see, run away, if 5 players decide to stand still in that red ring ..... why should my engineer get the blame

my 2 cents

I've played all the professions except guardian to at least around level 24, none as hard to target as this granades engineer, so i think it is too steep a price for us.

#54 draxynnic

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

To be honest, I haven't had as much experience with D/D builds as I have with others (although I have been trying it lately, and now I've finally got an elite that works underwater I can start sparing skill points for Armor of Earth and other tankier utilities). That said, by nature close-range builds are always going to have better defences one way or another than their longer-range alternatives.

Engineer, however, has the advantage that you can have close-range and long-range options in the same build (cf dagger eles that are restricted to 600 units unless they take conjures, and conjures can be clunky). With higher base health and armour, a wide range of healing effects that affect the user* (elixir gun with Kit Refinement gives you a healing light field pretty much whenever you want it and an area regeneration toolbelt skill, the medkit toolbelt skill is a decent self-heal even without the rest of the medkit and is affected by effects that benefit toolbelt skills like the trait that causes them to automatically recharge when your health hits 25% (just when you want to heal in a hurry), and a lot of control and escape effects, I've found the FT/EG engineer to be quite a bit more survivable. And unlike the D/D elementalist, it can switch to long-range mode at will without worrying about whether Water Attunement is on recharge or whether there's a conjure available.

Played at equal proficiency and with the same quality of builds, the D/D elementalist might pull ahead in tankiness... but since it's largely restricted to a 600 range and most of its skills only really work under 400, it'd had better be tougher than something that can open a large gap in seconds, snare the target, and then blaze away from 800-1200 units with pistol, rifle, or tranquiliser darts. If the ability of the D/D ele to be tankier than the FT/EG engineer is even in question, it looks to me like a significant balance issue in favour of the engineer.
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#55 Diet

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:43 AM

View Postcoglin, on 17 December 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

LOL....Compared to what? I can build necros that will out tank any ele build you make in every way. I can build en engineer with more Hp, more toughness, and more healing. I can make a guardian that had more hp/tough/healing. The only thing a ele can out tank is mesmers and rangers period. But I guess that is niether here nor there because this isn't an ele thread.
i was merely saying an ele can be tanky, I didn't say it can out tank everything as I only have guardian/engineer/ele at 80 and can't comment on any other tank class or builds.

#56 Targanwolf

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postcoglin, on 16 December 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

This game is losing players in the natural level, in the natural coarse that MMOs due after launch. Do not attempt to foolishly misrepresent that by attempting to suggest it has to do with an engineer change. That is just foolish.

Ok(pulls the words you put in my mouth out) and spells it out......s l o w l y
1) the game is/has been loosing players(attribute it to what ever you want).I did not say it was for something that just happened a day ago with the Engineer nerf.....how could that be if you give the matter more than a seconds thought ?
2)My point was.....the game has been loosing players for some time...and a 30% reduction in damage dealing to a class that has not had much going for it to begin with ..... and that we all expected to be "fixed" ...NERFING ITS PRIMARY REASON FOR BEING....is NOT going to help the games player erosion problem.

Edited by Targanwolf, 17 December 2012 - 01:54 AM.


#57 coglin

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostTarganwolf, on 17 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

1) the game is/has been loosing players(attribute it to what ever you want).I did not say it was for something that just happened a day ago with the Engineer nerf....
.
Then why are you pushing a discussion on player population in a thread titled
Grenades #1, 30% damage reduction...how bad?

Then attacking me for associating your comments with the topic of the thread? If what your saying is not related to the topic then post it elsewhere. Fairly poor logic to complain at others that they associate post made in a thread, with the topic of the thread itself.

View PostTarganwolf, on 17 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

2)My point was.....the game has been loosing players for some time...and a 30% reduction in damage dealing to a class that has not had much going for it to begin with ..... and that we all expected to be "fixed" ...NERFING ITS PRIMARY REASON FOR BEING....is NOT going to help the games player erosion problem.
They didn't nerf it. They balanced it with a change that added damage potential to it. Primarily taking damage from #1 skill while adding damage to 2 other grenades. Perhaps they buffed it?
You wouldn't know though because your too busy panicking on the forums with your knee jerk reaction too it. Do you even use grenade at a primary kit?

Edited by coglin, 17 December 2012 - 02:58 AM.


#58 Elysen

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:20 AM

Yes, I was tl;dr everything except the first post.

I don't even play Engineer, and this has infuriated me. No sigil can possibly compensate 30% damage - and it's not like Engineers were OP anyway!

This angers me more than my poor Guardian nerf.

View Postpumpkin pie, on 17 December 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

first of all, all 5 of  the granades skills needs targeting with your mouse, unlike some skills that some other professions have, where you just sit and press 12345. ....

I've played all the professions except guardian to at least around level 24, none as hard to target as this granades engineer, so i think it is too steep a price for us.

This is why I deleted my Engineer, I was so incompetent at ground target for all skills. It's such a harsh penalty for something that requires so much skill/practice.

Edited by Xephenon, 17 December 2012 - 03:22 AM.


#59 Diet

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:38 AM

I wouldn't say it's hard to use ground target in pve... but in WvW it's pretty damn easy to see the grenades flying through the air at you, making them really easy to avoid.

#60 Daesu

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

So, is there a general consensus that a grenadier is not feasible anymore in high end PvE?  If a grenadier is still feasible, then which build does people recommend?  Personally I prefer a tanky grenadier that can survive solo in Orr.

My Engineer is the only level 80 character that I can't afford exotics on and now she may not be worth playing much less equipping with exotics anymore.

Edited by Daesu, 17 December 2012 - 05:51 AM.






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