185 replies to this topic

[MAUL0r1]

This thread is epic and sad to read. i could only get through the first page before my brain wanted to jump out of my head and run screaming down the street.

@People who think Anet added a gear grind: Tell me, where exactly do you see Agony murdering players besides inside fractals? What does this gear grind exactly do for you in the rest of the game? a fancy looking back piece? Does that mean you'll win more in WvW somehow? really?

@People who think that complaining on this forum is the best way for Anet to get feedback: NO. Just NO. All you're doing is destroying the community with your negativity. Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

Also, it should be noted that Anet is WAY more interested in statistics than other MMO developers... they analyze data to help them make decisions, not the moanings of an emotional child. Go to them with some actual hard data (combat logs, etc..) and they will hear you, otherwise... you're just annoying me and everyone else who's still getting enjoyment out of this game.

Now for a moment, just remember the level of completeness, and richness of content that ANY other MMO had in its first year... think back to DAoC's launch, GW1, WoW, whatever your fondest memories were from... was it even 10% as finished as this game? I played all of them... I know DAoC wasn't this amazingly complete... GW1 was too small of a game content wise to look unfinished at launch... and WoW was just plain full of missing content for high players for a REALLY long time... It's easy to look back and think about only the good things, in fact, that is part of human psychology... but force yourself to remember how truly bad most other mmos were during the early days and you'll find that I'm right.

[zabiku]

@MAUL: So...because games created 6-7 years ago, people who realize that this is a new age for MMOs to start impressing people because the genre as a whole is TOTALLY not been reduced to the point of a funnel technique produced by all developers just throw on a new skin and charge 60 bucks for it most times. Because of all that progress made with MMORPGs within the past 6-7 years and games getting better over time, you're telling people that they are foolish and unrealistic to expect games like GW2, which is on the bleeding edge of what was promised to be a revolution in MMORPGS (which in some respects still holds that title, but from an apparent laziness gloss shines through in some places), to have up to par content compared to other games in the market, even its predecessor?

Hmm sounds rather harsh, if we don't demand a certain quality of gaming when we invest money into that product, what are we really doing other than handing company money and saying "we are content with the lack of quality you are giving us, keep up the work". Granted I'm not saying rouse the troops and storm Anet with insults and banter, or something as stupid as boycott something, since they achieve nothing. A gamer's most powerful tool is their pocket, which Anet knows full well, hence why the game is B2P, makes everyone happy. So since people can't show their dissatisfaction with how the past few months have been and cannot unsubscribe, the only tool we have now is to be very loud and vocal. There are right ways and wrong, but I wouldn't consider any of it bad really. There are those who scream the loudest and make the most noise which gets the developers attention, and then there are those who are more unified in their cause regarding a overall complaint that is being held among the community that gets viewed because of those who are demanding attention. It all works pretty well, its just there are so many people with diehard positions when it comes to gaming that most lose sight of being reasonable and being conceded.


Also regarding those saying GW2Guru isn't the place developers will come looking for suggestions or the kind. Let me remind you the GURU community is held very highly among Anet staffers and has had numerous times where PR and Community Leaders from Anet come to be with the community, more so back during the old school days of GW1, but they still are very much alive here. Secondly, let me also make this a little more clear as to how silly you sound. You're telling me you believe that developers are more likely to turn to Reddit and ignore a very large and much so alive community based solely around every aspect of their game...and has a more extensive and detailed forum than their own Official Forum (which mind you wasn't even up the first month of the games release iirc)

That's just my 2 cents.

Edited by zabiku, 17 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Arquenya]

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Also, it should be noted that Anet is WAY more interested in statistics than other MMO developers... they analyze data to help them make decisions, not the moanings of an emotional child.

What statistics?? Well I always wondered why ANet doesn't make extensive polls about what the community as a whole thinks about the game, what they like to see added, how to improve and fine tune their gameplay.

You can't even make polls on the forum .. it's almost as if they don't even want to know what people like. So they give in to vocal minorities? Or just think out the most profitable thing to do, using "RNG sells better than just selling" statistics?? I don't see any players being involved at all.

Look for example at the ascended gear and that it seems that there's no majority that actually wanted it (see poll on this forum, the rage on the official forums - and take into consideration that the unhappy players already left). And it was already intended to be in the game before release? Really?
Or the fractals split into seperate levels instead of, say, brackets of 10 so the community is now split up into 100 little pieces and "LF Healer", which we all hated in other games, is replaced by "LFM lvl X".

Customer contact and beta test servers can be good things, really.

Edited by Arquenya, 18 December 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Zhahz]

this a pointed, on 15 December 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Welcome to the internet.
However, most people expected the game to be different. Like Anet said the game would be..

Dunno about "angry" but I'm am disappointed in how ANet has shifted on a few critical concepts that sold me on the game originally.

Overall I think GW2 is a good game but it could definitely be better and there's room for criticism (unless, I guess, you have a very simplistic view of everything and truly see no fault in anything).

[Feathermoore]

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

@People who think that complaining on this forum is the best way for Anet to get feedback: NO. Just NO. All you're doing is destroying the community with your negativity. Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

Guru is a place to further develop a concept before bringing it up to debs and fulfills this role better than the official forums would. So no, this is the place to have these discussions despite what you might think. Discussing and developing opinions and ideas which can then be presented as a complete and fully thought through post which would then be much more likely to be taken seriously is what people who want to make changes should do here. An idea that has been bounced off of multiple minds is more likely to have the flaws straitened out before it is taken to the official forums.

It is true that the ideas posted here most likely need to be posted to the official forums as well. That in no way means that this is not the place to develop these ideas.


I would like to remind people that we have a report system and request that we use it. It is obvious that posters here go over posts that they feel shouldn't be on the forums daily. Please report them, preferably with a reason why you think the post should be moderated. We can't read everything you know. Also, both ends of the spectrum get moderated equally. We tend to get reports mainly off of insults, but being off topic or failing to contribute to a discussion are valid reasons to report a post.

If you report a post, we will read the report. If you explain your thoughts on there report (there are times where this is obviously not needed) we will be able to follow your complaint more effectively. I can't promise we will always agree, but this is the best way to get threads to our attention. You can also contact any moderator, super-mod, or admin with comments.

[Daesu]

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

@People who think that complaining on this forum is the best way for Anet to get feedback: NO. Just NO. All you're doing is destroying the community with your negativity. Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

I don't know why everyone who hate others to give negative feedback like to ask them to post them to the official forums instead.  Is this some kind of conspiracy?  Perhaps they hope to make use of the moderators there to "punish" them by getting them banned?   I rather post here, thank you.  I don't believe in the draconian moderation that they have in the official forums.  

When people complain about the game, they should have a suggestion on how to fix it, otherwise it is not a constructive feedback.  On the other hand, if anyone is against their suggestions, then they should address why the suggestions are good or bad for the game, instead of resorting to personal attacks or name calling.  Otherwise they sound like a stupid fanboy.  

Therefore, negative threads by themselves are not the problem.  I welcome constructive negative threads and I can learn from these.  Closed-minded, overly zealous fanboys are the ones that are doing more harm than the frustrated players.  Their posts are just full of personal hate against individuals and they rarely address the suggestions, if at all.  You can't learn anything from their hate posts and they only serve to spread more hate around.

Edited by Daesu, 17 December 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Lol, I love how people think the community is all about them and how other people need to "get out".  Community isn't about "me" it's about everyone if you agree with them or not.  As I have said in other threads, stop thinking you know everything about everyone in said community.

I don't know why people live in their own little bubbles and pretend they know everyone else so well.  It has happened too much on these forums and not just about GW2. People assume about everything on here and it's sad...even MMO players in general.  Some people still honestly believe all MMO players are jobless bums who do nothing but play games 24/7...it's rather sad how distant from reality many people posting on here are.

The Guru isn't bad, it's just everyone wants to assume it is because they never set foot outside of Tyrian Assembly or are drawn to only the drama threads.  I will tell you for a fact that the profession forums and many other forums are very nice to bounce ideas back and forward. Why do people believe Tyrian Assembly is some battleground? I don't know I guess that's just what they want it to be.  Seems as if many people just want to argue for the sake of arguing rather than actually reading posts and listening to what is said/typed.

Why is it so negative? Well because people set it up that way early on by telling people "your playing wrong" or "if you don't like it then quit the game"...which is pretty much fail for any community.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 17 December 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

Feathermoore, on 17 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Guru is a place to further develop a concept before bringing it up to debs and fulfills this role better than the official forums would. So no, this is the place to have these discussions despite what you might think. Discussing and developing opinions and ideas which can then be presented as a complete and fully thought through post which would then be much more likely to be taken seriously is what people who want to make changes should do here. An idea that has been bounced off of multiple minds is more likely to have the flaws straitened out before it is taken to the official forums.

This quote kind of gives value to my theory that Anet paid guru to amass all crybabies on this site so they get less tears on the officials.

It's just a theory mind you, but I'm still itchy about the super twist in the moderation policy that happened right after launch; this forum's moderation was super strict against crybabies until 1 second in launch, at which point it suddenly became the summit of haters.
I still recall the first 2 weeks of launch when this forum section had 2 pages full of hate threads about the "exotic grind" with people insulting each other daily and throwing smack at Anet.

If I'm wrong then why not creating a feedback/complaint forum?
When a subject is widely debated it usually deserves its own section - it's kind of counterproductive to have a "general talk" section filled with complaints, unless you've been incentivated to do so.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 17 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Feathermoore]

Red_Falcon, on 17 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

This quote kind of gives value to my theory that Anet paid guru to amass all crybabies on this site so they get less tears on the officials.

It's just a theory mind you, but I'm still itchy about the super twist in the moderation policy that happened right after launch; this forum's moderation was super strict against crybabies until 1 second in launch, at which point it suddenly became the summit of haters.
I still recall the first 2 weeks of launch when this forum section had 2 pages full of hate threads about the "exotic grind" with people insulting each other daily and throwing smack at Anet.

If I'm wrong then why not creating a feedback/complaint forum?
When a subject is widely debated it usually deserves its own section - it's kind of counterproductive to have a "general talk" section filled with complaints, unless you've been incentivated to do so.

My quote reflects how Guru always worked. You haven't been around through the history of Guru, but this has not changed. Even before the creation of the official forums, Anet Devs would only be able to take from ideas that were posted to official locations (the wiki). Ideas would be discussed here, then posted to the wiki. Or at least this was the ideal way things would go, nothing ever works as smoothly as that.

Before release, the only things we had were speculation. The tone of the forum has drifted back and forth many times as the game was developed with periods of rainbows and periods of brimstone. The game is new, people are realizing it wasn't what they thought it was, and they are talking about it. Hence the current period of brimstone which would be completely expected upon release of a major title. Everyone can't be satisfied. Maybe this will change? The game will either evolve in a way that satisfies these people, or too much time will pass and they will move on to another game and give up on GW2 ever meeting their expectations. Then new discussions on other issues will pop up.

General talk, is for general talk. It is, by and far, the least productive section of Guru and should not be the place you look to see specific discussions. We have subforums for more refined, specific discussions and try to keep these to a minimum as the dilute the poster population. TA is a catch-all for everything that doesn't really deserve a section of its own. It usually is filled with threads that arch overall design decisions that don't fit anywhere else and tend to be much more negative than the discussions revolving around a specific class or gametype. Move out of TA if you want to see quality posts and get in touch with the actual community.

If the moderation policy changed (it didn't) it changed so that we are more strict on "bad posts." Amusingly enough, the "rainbow" posts have a higher number of "bad posts" than the "brimstone" ones currently.

Edited by Feathermoore, 17 December 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Rickter, on 15 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Guru is a niche GW2 enthusiast forum that has garnered popularity because it is in every aspect better than the official forums.  Guru was at one point able to tote is fine community as another selling point for those interested in joining a GW related forum.

But Guru existed during GW1 when there were no official forums. If it started at nothing it would not have gotten so popular.

[omar316]

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

This thread is epic and sad to read. i could only get through the first page before my brain wanted to jump out of my head and run screaming down the street.

@People who think Anet added a gear grind: Tell me, where exactly do you see Agony murdering players besides inside fractals? What does this gear grind exactly do for you in the rest of the game? a fancy looking back piece? Does that mean you'll win more in WvW somehow? really?

@People who think that complaining on this forum is the best way for Anet to get feedback: NO. Just NO. All you're doing is destroying the community with your negativity. Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

Also, it should be noted that Anet is WAY more interested in statistics than other MMO developers... they analyze data to help them make decisions, not the moanings of an emotional child. Go to them with some actual hard data (combat logs, etc..) and they will hear you, otherwise... you're just annoying me and everyone else who's still getting enjoyment out of this game.

Now for a moment, just remember the level of completeness, and richness of content that ANY other MMO had in its first year... think back to DAoC's launch, GW1, WoW, whatever your fondest memories were from... was it even 10% as finished as this game? I played all of them... I know DAoC wasn't this amazingly complete... GW1 was too small of a game content wise to look unfinished at launch... and WoW was just plain full of missing content for high players for a REALLY long time... It's easy to look back and think about only the good things, in fact, that is part of human psychology... but force yourself to remember how truly bad most other mmos were during the early days and you'll find that I'm right.

Lol. DAoC's launch was a mess. Log in timeouts. Long ass queues. Disconnects. Missing inventory crap.

But to compare DAoC to GW2 is not fair. It's like saying lets compare f1 cars from the 80s to the current gen. Devs learn not to repeat the same mistake. The problem is not even with the completeness and launch issues.

I'm pissed at the direction Anet is going. I will completely pay a sub for this crap if they would promise me what other games have offered. PvP similar to DAoC/Warhammer. PvE similar to SWTOR/WoW. Economy and grind similar to FF11. Builds and tactics similar to SWTOR/Warhammer.

I can see they want to be different. Big whup. Fine. But can't we get some Devs to realise they can be unique and different while implementing the best aspects of the serveral games which already have been released instead of reinventing the wheel and then not being able to substantiate it.

True, we won't be able to know the problems with a redesign of a system, until it's tested, but why is a core design completely stale with no possible chance to revamp/redesign?

[Lucas Ashrock]

blindude, on 16 December 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I have trained myself to not spend more than a few min top half an hour reading this forum( tyrian assembly). The thing is that after 600 hours i still like the game..and reading the numerous threads here will actually make you think theres something wrong with you for enjoying your time in gw2. Also i have noticed that the same people that have been whining about everything sinece launch are STILL here or well most of them. The thing is that taking part in a long conversation with them will just make you lose your time cause they wont agree they are wrong even if its the most obvious and easy to prove thing in the world. For example OP read this and tell me if you can seriously have a conv with this guy

If you don't have a valid argumentation about what you quoted (legal part) able to stand on his feet, i doubt you're able to have an argumentation with me about that topic. Guess i know why you don't spend time here , don't worry, not everyone can stand particular argumentations without this face

Juanele, on 16 December 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

That's how I feel sometimes when coming here or to the official forums. Reading it makes you feel bad somehow for liking the game. I've been only coming to the main forum here only once in a while now. If I do visit guru it's mostly to visit some of the sub-forums like the gamers lair, much more interesting there. Indeed. There are some people that just hang around the forums of a game they hate. It puzzles me. There are some interesting threads to read around here and even on the official forums but you really have to search through a lot of the garbage to get to it.

Some others instead, as you see reading this post, instead of read and figure out where the thread and posts inside goes, spit around "whiner" "QQ" "haters"

The truth sometimes is an uncomfortable chair

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 18 December 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Misce]

Schwarzseher, on 15 December 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

The whole negativity made me quit so many forums. Guru is no exception sometimes because some special people who're on the official forums cry here to. I wonder why there're no NEW QQ about necros. Engineer's got it already. I generally look at all class forums because I occasionally play some of them and like to look at what other people think about their classes.
Elementalist is especially a place for crying and I even shed a tear after the EA nerf...but enough is enough TBH! There's enough negative on the official forums why spread it here?

One example how this negativity can affect someone(me in this example): I wanna play my necro but after reading all the crying I can't get myself to play it. If I were to look at other classes I'd read the same stuff that's why I am done looking at the official forums.
Which is in fact kind of sad because there're some quiet comprehensive threads for builds in SOME of them.

What's up with the constant community call-outs? This is not your best friend nor your Elementary School classroom. It's forums. Which are the place for debates, exchange of opinions and such. If you came here to exclusively find people who only share your personal opinion, you have only yourself to blame.

As for personal opinions, here's mine: this game sucks so hard in almost every aspect, it's terrible. To think I actually PAID for this crap, it's depressing. Any fans who love the game enough to buy my box/account as well? I'll sell it half the price.

[Noob On Steroid]

People tend to give negative feedback, focussing on what is bad and needs improving. As long as it's constructive negative feedback, that's all good for me. And exactly for that purpose, I agree with Feathermoore. Guru might not be the official forums, but it does give you the opportunity to discuss the stuff you care about, and let your opinion mature. Discussing something will usually bring up different points of view that can contribute to your own opinion on the matter.

Is GW2 a good game? Sure, we wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't. But it's far from perfect, and Anet has shifted away from some of their original design ideas (that were used to sell the game). That does make for enough reasons for a community to give negative feedback on the matter. Saying "F*CK IT THIS GAME S*CKS SO BAD IT HURTS", is just as far from the truth as the usual fanboy blabber going "omg Anet is so awesome and made the bestestest game ever and everyone that tells otherwise is just a sour negative nancy!!!111".

Edited by Noob On Steroid, 18 December 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Heart Collector]

PandaGeist, on 15 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I've been stalking the forums for awhile and I'm wondering why there so many people on here that have nothing but bad things to say about gw2. I for one think Anet has done a good job at giving us a good dependable game.

Because they seem to have nothing better to do with their lives than whine on fansites for videogames. They can't just quit a game, make one vent post and never look back if they don't like it, oh no, that would make too much sense. They have to whine in every other thread about how much they hate the game, how they think its junk, and that people who disagree are blind fanbois. It's the equivalent of going to a club that plays a certain kind of music and yelling at everyone about how much you hate that music. Kinda sad really.

Criticism is always good of course, many people on these boards have a very critical attitude toward the game and Anet but are a delight to discuss with. There's a big difference between actual criticism and whining.

The game is not perfect of course, I think it's lacking in some departments (severely in some cases), but it's good enough to enjoy at least with a more laid back playstyle and does a lot of things right in my book.

[chrisbdrake]

Arquenya, on 17 December 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

What stacistics?? Well I always wondered why ANet doesn't make extensive polls about what the community as a whole thinks about the game, what they like to see added, how to improve and fine tune their gameplay.

Anet already has access to the best statistics possible, game play.  They know how many people are doing activities and how often they are doing them.  They probably know patterns for player types also.  Internet polls can be misleading.

[Arquenya]

chrisbdrake, on 18 December 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Anet already has access to the best statistics possible, game play.  They know how many people are doing activities and how often they are doing them.  They probably know patterns for player types also.  Internet polls can be misleading.

Really? How about how to intepret those data? Is AC popular because it’s fun, because it’s easy, because it’s easy to get to, because the rewards are the prettiest, some other reasons?

Data are results and don’t necessarily say anything about the causes. You can draw the wrong conclusions from those data. By the abovementioned, ANet may for instance decide to make 10 more dungeons with ghosts and gravelings "because people love it".
Now do they, really?

Internet polls, if designed the right way, can tell a lot more, especially if you combine it with your data.

Edited by Arquenya, 18 December 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Millimidget]

beadnbutter32, on 15 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Maybe there would be less negativity if Anet did not release half baked, buggy content.

This.

Where's the increase in precursor drop rates we were promised? What's up with all these stimulus programs which temporarily flood the market with precursors, but do nothing to actually address the underlying issue?

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

You know everything on official is disregarded unless it's bug related or some PR guy says they need to respond.

You can provide better feedback by discussing an issue here, and convincing other players that your view is correct, with the goal of generating some critical mass of complaints on the official forum, because the only time developers will even deign to listen to gamers is when there's a critical mass of complaints.

I blame developers as much as players. Unless they're straight up trolls (ie griefers probably drawn to the game in the first place because it offers stealth classes), they genuinely want to enjoy the game. Developers don't always want to make the game as fun as possible, which as often as not is their downfall (see: RNG mystery boxes, rampant nerfing of any profitable farm spot, etc.).

Edited by Millimidget, 18 December 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[HeroYouFear]

I didn't realize the forums was a place to cuddle, i actually tought forums was a place for us to vent, and say what we want to say.

But since i'm wrong, i'm naked and ready for a group hug.

[Lunacy Polish]

Well a couple of things to keep in mind:

1.  In life, when you do something right or correctly, no one congratulates you unless you do something utterly amazing.  To paraphrase many fathers out there, do you want a cookie every time you do something right?  When something is working just fine, no one says anything, so even though I personally think the game gets a lot of big things right, it's harder to describe what those things are because they are working and I don't think about them.  Therefore there's just not going to be as much positive discussion because it's easier to point out minutiae.  Problems and flaws tend to be specific issues that are easier to characterize and discuss, and they stand out in our minds more than things that work.

2.  The bigger thing is, even though a great deal of us are over thirty years old now, gaming culture is still entrenched in a very adolescent mindset.  Specifically a very male adolescent culture, but that's another topic entirely.

The adolescent mind has adult faculties but not adult experience.  When you are a child, assuming you are a well cared for child, out of innocence you think the world is better than it actually is.  As a teenager you start to figure out that gee, sometimes the real world sucks.  You start to become aware of things in life that are unfair, etc.

Teenage angst is a real thing, how do you deal with the crushing nature of reality when you were just a mere child a very short time ago?  The answer is you relate more strongly to your peer group, and naturally that peer group is going to glorify cynicism because that cynical feeling is something you all have in common.  A lot of people never move beyond this "everything sucks" mentality, they call themselves "realists" and are usually pretentious without even knowing it.

It's not until you get over the fact that being cynical of everything isn't always the correct approach to life and start realizing that maturity is balancing optimism and postiviity, while still being wary and careful, that you really start to think like a mature person.  It's not a discrete point either, it's a continuum from being too cynical to being mature.

TL DR Gaming culture isn't adult, it's adolescent and as such full of complaining and angst.  The first generation of adult gamers is still pretty young, wait until us 8 bit era folks are in the nursing home and maybe it'll change.

[MandraxUK]

PandaGeist, on 15 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

I've been stalking the forums for awhile and I'm wondering why there so many people on here that have nothing but bad things to say about gw2. I for one think Anet has done a good job at giving us a good dependable game.

Forums are always full of people complaining. I prefer to discuss game issues in-game with friends and guild mates and such.  Forums are either all doom and gloom or rabid fanboyism.  In-game discussions are far more constructive.

Edited by MandraxUK, 18 December 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[MandraxUK]

MAUL0r1, on 17 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

This thread is epic and sad to read. i could only get through the first page before my brain wanted to jump out of my head and run screaming down the street.

@People who think Anet added a gear grind: Tell me, where exactly do you see Agony murdering players besides inside fractals? What does this gear grind exactly do for you in the rest of the game? a fancy looking back piece? Does that mean you'll win more in WvW somehow? really?

@People who think that complaining on this forum is the best way for Anet to get feedback: NO. Just NO. All you're doing is destroying the community with your negativity. Want to give good feedback? be constructive and show evidence on the OFFICIAL forums.

Also, it should be noted that Anet is WAY more interested in statistics than other MMO developers... they analyze data to help them make decisions, not the moanings of an emotional child. Go to them with some actual hard data (combat logs, etc..) and they will hear you, otherwise... you're just annoying me and everyone else who's still getting enjoyment out of this game.

Metrics are all well and good, but often they hide issues.  For example, currently there are tons of people doing Fractals.  Are all those people doing them happy with it?  The answer is no, the reason they are doing them is because they are forced to if they want the own the best rewards.  So Arenanet might use the number of fractal participants as some kind of yardstick for Fractals success, but actually we will only know how successful fractals are once all the other avenues for acquiring Ascended gear have been added.

Obviously this is just a single example of how stats/metrics can be misinterpreted, there are obviously dozens of other examples.  Metrics have their place, but player feedback is probably as important.  The only problem is, ArenaNets actions show us how important they think feedback is, and by shutting down a massive thread on Ascended gear, they were really saying 'screw you, we don't care what you say, we are doing it our way so STFU'.

[escada_assassin]

I was bored with everything 2 weeks and something ago. Thought about going for a legendary, but thinking of how much time I have to spend just farming&farming&farming and guess what? More farming&farming&farming...totally not worth it. Don't enjoy JP's at all. It's either an age thingy or a reflex thingy which comes with age or the fact that I see this game as a...game and not taking things that seriously. Don't enjoy running same dungeon over and over and over again for the next 7 years and still fool myself that it's been a real blast. So I was pretty much bored with everything until 2 weeks ago, when I discovered wvwvw. Dang, I've been missing a lot of fun. So I guess I found that particular part of the game I enjoy doing over and over again. I settled with this and am happy with my purchase. Other than that, I enjoyed doing map completion, but wouldn't do it again in a million years, I enjoy doing Wintersday stuff or the Halloween stuff, I enjoy just walking around and just admiring the view, I still enjoy doing a dungeon here and there but that's pretty much it. Low level areas are empty and serve so other purpose but leveling, unless you're running them with guildies & or friends. High level areas are zergfests for cash, same cash that ANet is trying to lower each day for unknown purposes. WvWvW is the game for me. Nothing else would motivate me to play this game anymore, since everything else is just a grind toward an armor set / weapon (except for those lunatics running around for the views).

Edited by escada_assassin, 18 December 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Mura]

Chances are, anet is taking more than metrics into account.  For example, it's likely that looking at the metric of how many players are doing fractals, they also consider that fractals are the new content, and among the best ways to accumulate gold.

If I ran a forum for a company and had the power to eliminate immature whinebag threads, I'd probably do the same that anet does on their official forums.  I've seen threads started with hard data followed by a pretty reasonable argument about that data, and those threads don't get deleted.  Or at least not by the time I was looking at them.

To answer the OP, why the negativity.  People suck.  <grin>  I myself have been having a blast.

[Zheo]

As I have said in other threads (and perhaps this one, but I can't remember):

If you please someone, they perhaps tell 3 people. If you piss someone off, they go to the internet, where their rage echoes eternal.

The reality is that the critics, i.e. IGN, Gamespy, etc., have commented and given their opinion on GW2 and have highlighted the many things that GW2 has done right. Further, no game developer can please everyone. They listen to the community, and/or the feedback from other gamers, and determine that something people might like. They listen to people complaining the "omg DPS can never find groups" and "why do we HAVE to have a tank to do content" and they remove the holy trinity.  Result: some people think it is great and quietly enjoy the game they purchased. Other people scream "OMG THIS IS CIRCLE STRAFE PEW PEW LAZERS!!!! This game is lammeee!!!11!!!!!11!!!!111!11!!!" and they demand ANet to change the game, or they go slinking back to WoW and fill trade chat with how bad the game is, all the while forgetting that from the get go ANet said there wouldnt be a holy trinity.

In my opinion, GW2 is largely tailored to the 'casual' crowd. I use the quote signs because there is enough to keep hardcore players busy, IN MY OPINION, yet it doesn't necessarily require the time commitment of a more demanding game, such as WoW, where most guilds require a few hours a couple nights a week to raid the content. Blizzard implemented the Raid Finder system and everyone complained of tailoring to the casuals and ZOMG. The reality is the average age of the gamer is now into the 20s and 30s. The 8 and 16 bit era gamers are now in that age category and have things like jobs, families, and real world responsibilities that don't allow for hours upon hours of video gaming.

People, in general, have this perceived notion that any product they purchase must be exactly what they want. They don't expect perfection in vehicles or living spaces, but in games, its like "ZOMG this game sucks it doesnt have feature or content X or Y". Perhaps it's because many of us have such a lack of free time we want the most out of it? Regardless, most negativity is just whining from people that want to feel listened to.

But, then again, perhaps some of you feel that my comments are just that. It's all in your perception.

[Kymeric]

XgreatArtist, on 16 December 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

the main reason is that anet thinks they are always correct and customers are always wrong

Except for when they say, "Oops, we made a mistake here" and change things.  But otherwise, yeah...

Quote

Arenanet is acting like a dictator and facist. i want to support lucas' statement that they censor the crap in the official forums. Of course all the flame threads were removed but what about the 'game bugs report, unhappy customers who want to have their view'.

I see an awful lot of negativity on the official forums.  They aren't doing a very good job of removing it if that is their goal.

Quote

And they call USA democratic and freedom of speech....

I think you have ArenaNet confused with the United States government.


It's obvious that ArenaNet does listen and does change things.  Perhaps not as much as some would like, or in ways they would like, but saying that they completely ignore player feedback is ridiculous.

Take the holiday jumping puzzle.  There was a lot of grief over the Halloween JP being too hard and having great rewards.  The Wintersday one is easier and the rewards are much more moderate.  There were a lot of complaints about having too many toons on the Halloween JP so that you couldn't see your own to figure out when to make jumps.  For Wintersday, they divvied up the participants and had them start in different areas that feed together so there are fewer together at any given point.

Whether or not you think these fixes were adequate, necessary, introduced more problems, or were taken in the wrong direction, they are still clearly reactions to feedback.

Before anyone calls me a "walled garden fanboi", I have plenty of things I'd like to change about the game.  I was disappointed in a new gear tier, I'm frustrated by profession bugs, etc.  Of the developers I'm aware of, however, ANet is on the extremely responsive end of the spectrum.  Whether people like the responses is another issue altogether.

Edited by Kymeric, 18 December 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Desild]

I'm just disenchanted. Issues aren't being tackled at a decent speed, and for each one fixed another two are introduced. As much good will Anet has, I just feel bitter with all the changes they introduced to the genre. The predominance of RNG, and grinding, are two of the major turn offs this game has for me.

[XPhiler]

MandraxUK, on 18 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Metrics are all well and good, but often they hide issues.  For example, currently there are tons of people doing Fractals.  Are all those people doing them happy with it?  The answer is no, the reason they are doing them is because they are forced to if they want the own the best rewards.  So Arenanet might use the number of fractal participants as some kind of yardstick for Fractals success, but actually we will only know how successful fractals are once all the other avenues for acquiring Ascended gear have been added.

Obviously this is just a single example of how stats/metrics can be misinterpreted, there are obviously dozens of other examples.  Metrics have their place, but player feedback is probably as important.  The only problem is, ArenaNets actions show us how important they think feedback is, and by shutting down a massive thread on Ascended gear, they were really saying 'screw you, we don't care what you say, we are doing it our way so STFU'.

I am sure you're right but listening to people will not give you the right idea either. Why? Because people say they want one thing but in fact want another. Data is a lot more accurate then you can imagine. This is a big issue no doubt but let see historically how things turned out.

You have players who claim they want horizontal content, they claim they hate vertical content with a passion yet through the life time of the game these same people refused to play any content outside of Orr (because of better rewards), the first moment better gear is released they flock to play it and once again refuse to do anything else.

How do you expect Arenanet to address such an issue? People are saying they want horizontal content and no vertical content. During halloween they added 30 new events across the world, the random spawning skritt event, 3 new jumping puzzles across the world. Did these so called horizontal loving players finally abandon Orr to experiance this new horizontal content? Absolutely not, the new events where added in lower level zone, there is not much reward so no reason to abandon Orr.

Fast forward to the lost shores, those same vertical hating people drop everything in Orr and rush to FoTM (content they claim to hate) and stay there.

So let see what are statistic telling us? People play highest rewarding content. Orr then FoTM. People dont care about horizontal content, when added few people actually sought it out.

Interview people will have told you what? Ohh we hate vertical content we just want horizontal content.

So what will happen if you follow what statistics are saying? you know that your next content will have to be more rewarding then the previous content or else these people will ignore it. (doing new content thats just as rewarding is unlikely to work as well. You'd have strategies formulated, groups experianced in tackling the current content, learning how to deal with the new content will result in a period of diminished returns)

So what happens if we follow what people are saying? we want horizontal content.They do that, add more events all over the world and then? people keep playing whatever rewards the most. a couple of months people get bored playing the same stuff over and over again and then quit.

Thing is there is a big contradiction here in my opinion. I just can understand how a truely horizontal player can be reward oriented. Reward is a purely vertical trait. The most rewarding content is at the end of the vertical progression corridor. The horizontal progression corridor has a ton of varying content spread all over the place. But there is no way to have every content be equally rewarding. The horizontal player keeps playing 1 - 15 content even at max level not because it rewards the most but because he enjoys the content. A horizontal player (in my opinion of course) is driven by the love for the game, the love of the activity at hand, the love of the enviroment, art, music whatever. But cant really be the love of the reward, That just makes it impossible to enjoy the width of content a horizontal game provides.

In my opinion what these people want is a short vertical progression, but vertical progression none the less. If they themselves seem not to know what they really want do you really think interviewing them will actually give you the answer?

[HeroYouFear]

Promisse a person a bread with nothing, give him a bread with nothing, he will not complain.
Promisse a person a bread with nothing, give him a bread with butter, he will be happy.
Promisse a person a bread with nothing, give him absolutely nothing, he will murder you.

People hate this game, because of the manifesto and the hype that ANET did build around it, it made me and many believe it was going to be the game of all games, and then this happened.

It's all about the expectations you set for your product, ANET did not deliver, some retarded or delusional people might disagree but the reality can only be one.

[Kymeric]

HeroYouFear, on 18 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

It's all about the expectations you set for your product, ANET did not deliver, some retarded or delusional people might disagree but the reality can only be one.

A good indication of delusional is insisting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is delusional.

And please don't use "retarded" as an insult.  It's very poor manners.

People complain when developers are tight-lipped about what they are working on.  They also complain when developers dream out loud and then aren't able to deliver.  It's a terrible catch-22.

Oh the QQ we used to have over ANet playing things close to the chest and refusing to talk about things until they had spent a great deal of time developing them.

Desild, on 18 December 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm just disenchanted. Issues aren't being tackled at a decent speed, and for each one fixed another two are introduced. As much good will Anet has, I just feel bitter with all the changes they introduced to the genre. The predominance of RNG, and grinding, are two of the major turn offs this game has for me.

You aren't suggesting they introduced RNG or grind to the genre, right?

I'm disappointed by the amount of RNG present as well.  At the moment, however, the grind and RNG presence is far less than any other MMORPG I'm aware of.  We were hoping for a grind-free game, but at least currently, I'm pleased that we have a grind-lite game.