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We need an autoattack that cleaves (possibly making Axe finally useful)


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#1 Hellmood

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:21 PM

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Hello,
I’d really love to level a Necro, but I am really offset by the fact that EVERY weapon bar the Staff has a strictly single-target autoattack.
I’d love the Dagger to cleave a small area, but this weapon is probably fine as it.
However, you could use the oppurtunity and buff the currently underwhelming AXE by giving it AoE! I mean, the animation for it is already there. To me, it looks like the Axe #1 skill was meant to be AoE to begin with.



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Yeah, the Axe is really incosistent. It’d be much better if #1 and maybe even #2 were AoE. I mean, it REALLY feels like they were intended to be AoE in the first place, given the lower damage and the animation.
I mean, every class has at least one weapon whose #1 let’s them clear a group of mobs neatly, only the Necro doesn’t. Not even the Staff #1 is particularly well-suited for this. It’s really meh that I have to blow high cooldowns on gimmick-y AoE abilities only to clear groups of mobs.


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digiowl, like I said. I am kinda reluctant to “waste” my precious cooldowns on utility-oriented skills like Focus #4 and Dagger #4 just because we have NO autoattack that is halfway decent at clearing large amounts of “trash”. I just find Necro PvE unenjoyably slow and inefficient because of this.
Warriors and Guardians cleave anything in front of them anyway, with almost every weapon.
Ranger also has 3 out of 5 MH/2H weapons that AoE autoattack.
Mesmer has the staff and the 1H sword.
Elementalist is an AoE monster all around.
Thieves have the shortbow for ranged and the 1H sword for melee cleaving.
Engineer has piercing rifle or exploding pistol.

Necromancers have nothing of this sort, bar the slow and narrow staff #1. We are incredibly inefficient at basic PvE and it’s really sad.
As far as other skills go, we also have nothing on a short CD that can substitute.
Staff #2 with its 6 secs? Practically useless on power builds (due to bleed) and very small, static AoE.
The next thing that comes close is scepter #2 with its 10 secs…which is also condition damage again.
After that, anything else is beyond 15 seconds which I consider too long for the purpose of basic PvE and levelling.


Source: https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1006672

What do you think?

Edit: Aw, crap. Title says "We need..." of course

Edited by Hellmood, 15 December 2012 - 05:23 PM.


#2 Sheepski

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

Fixed title for you :)

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#3 Khrushchev

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

I'll respond, as someone whose only 80 is a Necro.

Axe sucks.

With that said, I find it extremely difficult to agree with anything else. I run dagger/horn + staff with wells, focused on power,  and I eat mobs of enemies as a snack.
I also very rarely miss credit on kills in PvE, between the horn lifesteal, Wells, and Shroud 4.
The staff does good damage for a ranged option, has a snare, party condition removal, a fear, and Regen for your melee buddies, of which you can be.

Axe is pretty terrible though, won't dispute that.

#4 Hellmood

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:50 PM

I am mainly talking as a Necro newb who just wants to level his character and so far, I find it pretty annoying and inefficient being so single-target focused. I do not see any reason not to make Axe #1 hit multiple targets. The GS #1 attack also cleaves everyything in front of the wielder while inflicting vulnerability.

Edited by Hellmood, 15 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.


#5 KennoArkkan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

Well, My only 80 is a necro too. I actually leveled up using almost only Axe... it isn't that bad.

But then i discovered the dagger+warhorn build.

It's one of those cases, when you're given a tool in a videogame that makes its job 10 times better than the other tools, and you just have to use it because it's the most efficient way to do your thing.

Axe has it's uses, you can make a perfect rotation with it using deathshroud. I played it axe+focus, for the vulnerability. It goes something like skill 4> skill 2>DS>shoot for 5 secs>skill 2>DS (or otherwise 3 or focus 4, if already cooled-down)>rinse and repeat.

Tho i have to say it's a build very crit-dependant, and well, while you level, your gear is crap, so... don't do what I did xD

It's not that bad, but there are waaay better options.

#6 Hellmood

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

Nah, it IS that bad. There is literally no use for it, the Dagger is superior in every aspect from damage to survivability.
Also, the dagger actually has a dedicated build (lifesteal) with siphoning health and all while the axe has only one trait that increases its damage/reduces cooldown...Dagger has the cooldown reduction, a movement speed buff and basically all traits that revolve around siphoning health are made for dagger as well.
Oh, and the dagger has pretty good CC on #3 for PvP.

And check this out:

a full autoattack rotation of the dagger deals more damage and generates more lifeforce than axe #2 while being faster AND without cooldown.

The axe is THAT bad.
Maybe, with tons of vulnerability stacking and the trait, it starts to come close to the dagger. However, focus is available for mainhand dagger too.

Edited by Hellmood, 16 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.


#7 KennoArkkan

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

The thing is, they DO need to do SOMETHING to make the axe a decent option to play with xD

#8 Xenomortis

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

Every profession has a junk weapon; I wouldn't worry too much.
It is slightly annoying that the Necro's melee weapon is still single target; most others hit in an arc or have some AoE in their skills.
With the Axe being ranged, an inherent AoE might be a bit much, but its damage output is terrible in its current state.
I might suggest halving the range and bumping the damage and giving it some AoE, but then the Necro's two "power-based" weapons are short-to-melee range only.

And skill-3 is very clunky for solo-play.

Or they could replace the vulnerability for something worthwhile; trying to stack that shit is stupid.

My 'serious' suggestion is to have a chain on skill slot 1: the first skill is as now, the second could either be the same or marginally more powerful and the third skill being a more powerful AoE attack.

Skill-2 is fine as a life-force builder. An AoE aspect may be a bit much for that. I hate the third skill and would like to see that changed, but I can't think of anything clever to go there.

#9 SpelignErrir

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

An Axe + Focus well build is good vuln stacking for teams situations

It's pretty much complete crap otherwise though, shit dps, shit survivability, shit utility besides a cripple and vuln

#10 Ehragus

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

Make... axe... worth... USING! waaaahhh

#11 DoctorJest

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

Thematically I don't equate an Axe with Necromancers but I would like to see a moderate buff in the form of a simple AoE attack. Perhaps asking for a spinning wheel of doom a la Krull is a little too much but there should be at least an option to include the axe in a build rather than totally rejecting it out of hand - an automatic cleave on the autoattack (which should chain a la Dagger #1) and perhaps slightly buff the damage on #2 or even add an AoE component as well?

Simply having an AoE melee option would breath some life into the Power/Well builds.

#12 Gerroh

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:49 AM

"We are incredibly inefficient at basic PvE and it’s really sad."
Wait, what? This is the first I've heard of this. Lich form in general pve and many dungeon situations dominates everything in sight. The piercing attacks of staff and death shroud(when traited) are absolutely wonderful in pve if used correctly. While necromancer is lacking in aoe, I found that staff + wells did just fine for dishing out more than enough aoe to wipe out the smaller enemies. Sure, it doesn't compare to guardian staff, which I am totally in love with and always will be, but I don't find it that much of a problem. Anyway, I'm missing the point of the thread, onto the axe.

I use axe as my main weapon in both pve and wvw. Why? Because I like it. I like the style of it, I like the feel of it, I like the sound of it and the look of the axe I have. While I've managed to do well as an axe player, I do feel like it needs a bit of a buff. I've gotten so used to it that I can usually knock off half of someone's health in wvw before my control effects end, but, it really would benefit from a small aoe.
I get why it doesn't have an aoe, because of all of those "cleaving" weapons are melee weapons, and if you're that close up, you deserve to have a bit of aoe. The only exception being physical dagger, for obvious reasons.

I would also be in favour of the axe gaining a longer(or stronger) vulnerability effect.
I also think the #3 axe skill needs its 5-targets-max cap removed.

Edited by Gerroh, 24 December 2012 - 01:50 AM.


#13 kendro1200

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:30 AM

View PostHellmood, on 15 December 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

I am kinda reluctant to “waste” my precious cooldowns on utility-oriented skills like Focus #4 and Dagger #4 just because we have NO autoattack that is halfway decent at clearing large amounts of “trash”. I just find Necro PvE unenjoyably slow and inefficient because of this.
Warriors and Guardians cleave anything in front of them anyway, with almost every weapon.

While epidemic doesn't have the "burst" that warriors and guardians can boast, it does take care of the exact issue you're having.  (Seriously 4 to 6 stacks of bleed + epidemic, coupled with bone minions and flesh golem just tears through pve content in no time.)  Personally I like the axe as a largely single target weapon.  What I would like is for the axe to actually hit hard, or apply more stacks of vulnerability per hit.  Another thing that would be nice is for it to have its range boosted to 900.  Although, I'd hold the range buff secondary and would be willing to wait to see how well the weapon works after a damage buff.
As is the axe only performs on par with sub-par power builds of ele's and mesmers when used in a might stack weaving build.  Which means you basically throw everything away to be a sub-par glass cannon.  Granted every 45 seconds your life transfer can hit like a truck, but yeah, that's only every 45 seconds.  The sad part is that even with beserker gear, and 30 stacks of might, lich form doesn't even hit all that much harder (~2.5k on the main attack =/  ) than in my rampager conditionmancer build (~2k on the main attack).  Sort of a huge let down to be completely honest, since life blast can also pierce, is available more often, and you can toggle in and out of death shroud almost at will.  I'm digressing though, back to the point, I would like to see the axe actually buffed so that way a glass cannon power build can actually work.  After that we can re-evaluate the utility of the weapon.  As is though, the damage it offers makes it useless, even if it cleaved.




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