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Why So Scepter Ele?

elementalist scepter

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#1 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

Contrary to my name, I also have a dearly cherished ele and she has also been faithful to the staff since beta.  I have this weird idea that if my character uses magic she must have a staff, and as an elementalist can only have one weapon, the choice seemed obvious to me.  Now, I see SO many eles running around with scepter/dagger, like a lot and I don't understand why?  What does the scepter offer you that the utility from staff doesnt?

Edited by MesmersFromHouseElara, 16 December 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#2 jthamind

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

scepter/dagger is better than the staff for condition damage (miles better), single target damage, and pure dps. it also has better survivability options with Earthquake, Ride the Lightning, Rock Barrier, and Updraft. you can still get into the thick of things without feeling out of place.

staff is better for healing, support, and combo fields.

for the record, i use a staff too (for healing and support), but there are different builds where s/d shines more.

#3 mjsko

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

View Postjthamind, on 16 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

scepter/dagger is better than the staff for condition damage (miles better), single target damage, and pure dps. it also has better survivability options with Earthquake, Ride the Lightning, Rock Barrier, and Updraft. you can still get into the thick of things without feeling out of place.

staff is better for healing, support, and combo fields.

for the record, i use a staff too (for healing and support), but there are different builds where s/d shines more.

S/d actually has pretty horrible single target dps, unless you spam earth 1 with tons of condition damage. And it still isn't very good.  S/d shines in stacking might due to the two blast finishers scepter has in fire, and of course the sheer awesomeness of the dagger offhand.

I find staff and d/d better for pretty much every situation, but I can see the might stacking being useful if you have a group that will make the most of it.

#4 TGIFrisbie

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

It is good damage and survivability.  There is a build here somewhere that I used from 60-75, I found it a nice change.

Staff only goes so far in the excitement department.  I too prefer staff on my casters in MMOs, but when the damage is put on other weapons in this MMO, you can't argue with going with something else.

Also I think many like a change, going staff for 80 levels and then using it constantly will get boring.  It isn't like other MMOs where you simply change out the skill choices.

#5 SpelignErrir

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

View Postjthamind, on 16 December 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

scepter/dagger is better than the staff for condition damage (miles better), single target damage, and pure dps. it also has better survivability options with Earthquake, Ride the Lightning, Rock Barrier, and Updraft. you can still get into the thick of things without feeling out of place.

staff is better for healing, support, and combo fields.

for the record, i use a staff too (for healing and support), but there are different builds where s/d shines more.

Obviously haven't tried a condition staff build...a single elementalist traited and properly geared can easily maintain 20 stacks of bleeding in an aoe.

#6 The_Tree_Branch

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:57 PM

View PostSpelignErrir, on 16 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Obviously haven't tried a condition staff build...a single elementalist traited and properly geared can easily maintain 20 stacks of bleeding in an aoe.

I wouldn't call it easy to maintain when Eruption is one of the easiest spells to dodge in the game. Only spell of the top of my head I think is easier to dodge is Dragon's Tooth, and that's just because the graphic is so much more noticeable.

#7 Aetou

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

View PostThe_Tree_Branch, on 16 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I wouldn't call it easy to maintain when Eruption is one of the easiest spells to dodge in the game. Only spell of the top of my head I think is easier to dodge is Dragon's Tooth, and that's just because the graphic is so much more noticeable.

This is the PVE section, targets dodging out of Eruption is thus a non-issue and it is correct to say that Staff does far more Condition Damage than any of the other builds assuming there are at least two targets within the massive Blasting Eruption AOE.

People run Scepter because they don't have the skill to stay alive running D/D and don't want the investment of effort/concentration that staff takes to really get it to shine (yes, staff sucks if you just stay in Fire and spam dps but that isn't what it is there for.)  The Devs recently acknowledged that Elementalist has the highest skill ceiling of any class and I'd argue that Staff has the highest skill ceiling of any of our weapons (D/D has a different set of challenges mostly revolving around staying alive while within 300 of a boss.)  Staff does have some issues solo and I completely understand that as a solo weapon it is rather boring (the fun of it comes from controlling a 5 man encounter while still doing pretty insane damage to a whole group of mobs and also being able to save anyone on your team who screws up if you notice in time.)

Scepter is a good starter weapon, the one I'd advise should be used for at least the first 40 levels, because it is reasonably balanced and the other two both have big issues early on but once you get to endgame you should move on to one of the other two (or better, swap between them both for different situations.)

#8 Black Autumn

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

View PostAetou, on 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

People run Scepter because they don't have the skill to stay alive running D/D and don't want the investment of effort/concentration that staff takes to really get it to shine...

I don't actually find the staff to be more difficult or nuanced at all.  It's just different.  I like the more hybridized approach the S/D setup appears to be.  That's why I play it, not because I suck.

#9 Desert Rose

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:53 PM

When I started playing Ele I used Scepter/Dagger too because it looked like an all-in-one packet. Later I realized that either Staff or Dagger/Dagger are better in almost all situations. I think the only occasion I use Scepter is against the Dredge/Elemental boss in the Dredge fractal.

Edited by Desert Rose, 18 December 2012 - 11:53 PM.


#10 Black Autumn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

I bounce back and forth between sceptre and staff, still trying to decide.  I haven't ever actually done much D/D though.  My daggers kinda stink.

#11 matsif

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:40 AM

as I level mine, I'm using staff or D/D a lot more than scepter, preferring staff.  still learning some nuances of the attunement switching as I still have the mindset of "focus on one element, jack of all trades is bad" that the ele had in GW1, but staff I'm finding does more than enough dps in most situations and has support and heals to help that s/d lacks imo.

#12 MisfitAndy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:08 AM

Where do you get this idea that as an elementalist you are only allowed ONE WEAPON?

You are allowed any combination, as long as you equip out of battle.

Scepter/dagger is good for leveling up because it allows you to burst out some decent damage while still maintaining survivability.  Killing mobs with staff at lower levels is an absolute chore, sorry.  Dagger/dagger at lower levels doesn't shine yet, so scepter/dagger wins out.

As you mature as a player you will realize that there are certain situations for each weapon.  I usually am equipped with dagger/dagger unless there is something I need to blow up with meteor shower.  Scepter/dagger lost a lot of it's new car smell for me when I started doing dungeons.

#13 Elr3d

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:02 AM

View PostAetou, on 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Scepter is a good starter weapon, the one I'd advise should be used for at least the first 40 levels, because it is reasonably balanced and the other two both have big issues early on but once you get to endgame you should move on to one of the other two (or better, swap between them both for different situations.)

View PostAetou, on 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

People run Scepter because they don't have the skill to stay alive running D/D and don't want the investment of effort/concentration that staff takes to really get it to shine (yes, staff sucks if you just stay in Fire and spam dps but that isn't what it is there for.)

This kind of reasoning is obviously flawed. We have different weapons in the game and weapon sets, and it's obvious they were at first designed to be all viable end game options. Even if it is not the case now (I'm mainly thinking about Axe necro here, not even Elementalist), this will no doubt get fixed and balanced over time, Anet never stated some sets would be "superior" for endgame content and the depth of the build system makes it so in theory you can make anything effective (and if you can't make a weapon effective, there is a balance problem). You shouldn't assume a weapon can't be good for x unless you tried to build around it, and even so, there may be someone that manage to build it better than you could do. It's like all the Thieves claiming S/D was no good, while it's now more and more acknowledged that a S/D Thief is good if he has the proper build to back him up. This kind of statement is killing build experimentation, while the forgiving nature of the combat system allows for much more build variety than you could imagine at first sight.

I had an horrible pug member telling a D/D guildie in the group "Hey, in Dungeons all Elementalist should run Staff", while my guildie was rarely downing and applying auras to everyone. Please don't be that kind of person.

I'm using Scepter/Focus in endgame PvE and WvWvW with an Elemental Surge Arcane build (Focus defensive utilities allows me to slot Wave/Blast/Shield). Let me tell you it's very effective both on the offensive and defensive side, and allows quite a bit of solo mobs management.

Scepter has a huge burst potential, if you lock anything into place long enough to land Dragon Tooth + Phoenix (easily achieved by focus Air 5 or Signet of Earth), given how you can insert Arcane spells and also Air 2 3 anywhere (as they're instant cast). And you get some condition damage to add up. It's more offensive than Staff and lacks support healing options, and more defensive than Dagger MH and lack mobility. It's not that easier to use than Staff, since most of your spells (Water and Fire spells mainly) are delayed and you can't move around as easily as Dagger MH. Your main support option is might stacking. It just fits a different role really.

About Focus OH, it offers additional condition removal and projectile reflection, invulnerability, 900 range single target knockdown and chill, AoE daze, an awesome anti-projectile utility that really shines in WvWvW (it stops Trebuchet and Catapult shots) and as many blasts as Dagger OH, which in turns offer more burst options and mobility.

Different weapons for different purpose, all very decent in endgame if you trait correctly.

#14 Thaddeuz

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

My Ele is an hybrid Condition/Power (mainly in Fire/Earth with Water/Air only for periodical support) for me Specter/Dagger is better that dagger/dagger in PvE.

The S/D in fire have more AoE attack that the D/D in fire and overal more dps. But in PvP dragon tooth is pretty much usuless exept in some situation so D/D shine.  In Earth S/D and D/D can stack similar amount of Bleed, with a slight avantage to D/D against multiple target with Ring of Earth.

The reason i choose S/D is not only because of the surviability since with FIre i'm often in melee range to cast 4-2-3 (in fire) for stacking might around my melee ally. I choose it more because of the Condition/Dmg in Fire, and  its always nice to be able to get out of the dangerous zone periodically and being able to still deal a good amount of dmg.  D/D you need to stay close with is perfect for short fight, but in long dungeon fight sometime my Ele need to get out and heal herself before returning into the fight.

For the staff is the best support weapons by far, but you can also cause a lot of dmg with it. Indirectly with all the combo field. In Earth, basic Staff attack (without bonus) allow you to stack 16 of bleed in AoE against the 12 stack of bleed on single target of the S/D so the Staff win easily for PvE but in pvp Eruption have the same problem that Dragon Tooth. In Fire you have little burn compare to S/D, so if you have a condition based build you need to stick with Bleed. But sometimes your group do a lot of bleeding and you may want to switch to another element wich don't give a lot of condition witht the staff.

For me S/D is good because i alway have good dps. But the good weapons for you depends on what build and gameplay your happy with.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 20 December 2012 - 06:16 PM.


#15 Aetou

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

Burning is lousy for group situations.  It stacks duration rather than intensity and so should pretty much always be up on targets between the Ele and other group members (a single Guardian, for example.)  It's actually the fact that Scepter fire 1 relies on stacking too much burning that is a major factor behind me saying that Scepter is quite bad for endgame (prior to endgame you won't have enough condition duration stacked to make it utterly overkill.)  Any 'condition' build that is based primarily on poison or burning rather than seeing them as ways to supplement the stackable conditions (bleeds or confusion) has big issues in group contexts.

That said, a single Staff Ele is actually more than capable of keeping targets permanently burning anyway, and can do so in several different ways.  Firstly, just Staff 3 can keep everything burning permanently if you fully stack condition duration (10s base cooldown, 5s base duration - so either +100% condition duration or reduced fire skill cooldown talent).  Secondly, Fire Signet can achieve the same if you want to semi-waste the utility slot.  Finally, and much more importantly than either of those, and what you should be relying on, are self-combos.  You have two fire fields.  You have a projectile finisher on Staff 1.  Combine them and you'll be getting more than enough Burning to supplement Flame Burst and keep your target permanently aflame.


View PostElr3d, on 19 December 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

This kind of reasoning is obviously flawed. We have different weapons in the game and weapon sets, and it's obvious they were at first designed to be all viable end game options. Even if it is not the case now (I'm mainly thinking about Axe necro here, not even Elementalist), this will no doubt get fixed and balanced over time, Anet never stated some sets would be "superior" for endgame content and the depth of the build system makes it so in theory you can make anything effective (and if you can't make a weapon effective, there is a balance problem). You shouldn't assume a weapon can't be good for x unless you tried to build around it, and even so, there may be someone that manage to build it better than you could do.

Why do all weapons have to be equally viable at endgame?  Each weapon set needs to have a defined purpose and place but that doesn't necessarily need to be at endgame.  Having a weapon set that Elementalists can use to level up with less pain is more than enough reason to include it (could you just imagine having an Ele as your first character and having to do the first thirty levels with D/D?)  Having a weapon that is more forgiving than D/D while being more 'exciting' than Staff is an important niche.  The casual player with an elementalist has more than enough on their plate that giving them a 'training wheel' weapon sounds, to me, like a very smart design.

I've yet to see any build concepts for S/D that achieve something that can't be better achieved with either D/D or Staff.  I used S/D most of the way to 80, and quite frequently afterwards in the first month or so after that.  I swapped away from it because I realized all the things I liked about it were actually on the otherhand (Earth, Air and Water in particular) and that the 900 range really wasn't necessary (as I was often closer due to the offhands.)  You just 'pay' too much for the extra range of Scepter over D/D.  It's also worth noting that D/D range isn't as bad as people often assume - it isn't a strictly melee weapon and even 300 is a lot further than 130.  If you do find you have to back off a boss with D/D, though, just swap to water and start stacking Vulnerability at 600 on the boss while healing up very quickly (between regen, SoR + low cast time and Soothing Mist.)  D/D just does better damage than any other ele build with the possible exception of Krakatoa Staff while Staff does Support & Control better than any other ele build.  What niche is left for Scepter other than being the training weapon?  I stand by my earlier comments, that S/D is for more comfortable leveling and until you gain the confidence to use D/D (or decide you really enjoy the Support role which I think Ele does better than anyone else.)

Edited by Aetou, 20 December 2012 - 08:59 PM.


#16 Malganis

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostAetou, on 16 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

People run Scepter because they don't have the skill to stay alive running D/D and don't want the investment of effort/concentration that staff takes to really get it to shine (yes, staff sucks if you just stay in Fire and spam dps but that isn't what it is there for.)

I guess this would be me.   I dont like the staff as air is my favorite element and the air-damage for staff is terrible.   I tried d/d and I felt I was too squishy being up front in melee range.   So I went s/d and I love it.   I can be ranged when I want to be, and the dagger attacks in the offhand let me get up close when I need to be.

#17 DarkOrange

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostAetou, on 20 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

snipped to save space

This is the most sensible thing I've read all day :) I, too, leveled my ele using S/D. It's alot more fun than Staff, and alot more forgiving than D/D whilst learning how to play the ele.
Once I hit 80, I swapped to staff to play an EA support build, but after the nerf I found it a bit too much of a fuss trying to save and time my dodges (it doesn't suit my playstyle, I dodge around alot). I then switched to D/D and have been playing an auramancer support build, which I love. Nice damage, good survivability, and I love throwing out boons and heals to my team.

#18 Elr3d

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:48 AM

View PostAetou, on 20 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Burning is lousy for group situations.  It stacks duration rather than intensity and so should pretty much always be up on targets between the Ele and other group members (a single Guardian, for example.)  It's actually the fact that Scepter fire 1 relies on stacking too much burning that is a major factor behind me saying that Scepter is quite bad for endgame (prior to endgame you won't have enough condition duration stacked to make it utterly overkill.)  Any 'condition' build that is based primarily on poison or burning rather than seeing them as ways to supplement the stackable conditions (bleeds or confusion) has big issues in group contexts.

I won't deny Scepter 1 sucks. I usually keep my burns up via Dragon Tooth + Elemental surged Arcane Blast/Wave + Firewall/earth projectiles combo, which usually gives me like 15sec burning, more than enough to keep up until next Dragon Tooth/Phenix burst. All others scepter auto attacks are fine though, especially the Air one which is my usual fight initiator. I never stay in fire to attack things because it's sub-optimal.

View PostAetou, on 20 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Why do all weapons have to be equally viable at endgame?  Each weapon set needs to have a defined purpose and place but that doesn't necessarily need to be at endgame.  Having a weapon set that Elementalists can use to level up with less pain is more than enough reason to include it (could you just imagine having an Ele as your first character and having to do the first thirty levels with D/D?)  Having a weapon that is more forgiving than D/D while being more 'exciting' than Staff is an important niche.  The casual player with an elementalist has more than enough on their plate that giving them a 'training wheel' weapon sounds, to me, like a very smart design.

Well because GW2 is quite a versatile game, you can do anything with any class, and there is no reason all other classes would all have all weapons usable in endgame (apart from maybe Axe Necro, but even then) and not Elementalist.

Scepter as a main hand has a defined role that is burst damage (just look at Dragon Tooth, when combined with Phoenix you make crazy numbers in a matter of seconds, just look at Air 2 3 spells which are instant and can be chained instantly) while still granting defensive option (Rock barrier, Phoenix condition removal, Trident heal), where Dagger main hand is a more pressuring weapon and focused on keeping damage flowing rather than bursting anything down. Now, when you add another Dagger, D/D becomes a huge bursting set, but that is thanks to Fire Grab, Earthquake and Churning Earth which fits nicely into Dagger main natural flow of damaging spells.

View PostAetou, on 20 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I've yet to see any build concepts for S/D that achieve something that can't be better achieved with either D/D or Staff.  I used S/D most of the way to 80, and quite frequently afterwards in the first month or so after that.  I swapped away from it because I realized all the things I liked about it were actually on the otherhand (Earth, Air and Water in particular) and that the 900 range really wasn't necessary (as I was often closer due to the offhands.)  You just 'pay' too much for the extra range of Scepter over D/D.  It's also worth noting that D/D range isn't as bad as people often assume - it isn't a strictly melee weapon and even 300 is a lot further than 130.  If you do find you have to back off a boss with D/D, though, just swap to water and start stacking Vulnerability at 600 on the boss while healing up very quickly (between regen, SoR + low cast time and Soothing Mist.)  D/D just does better damage than any other ele build with the possible exception of Krakatoa Staff while Staff does Support & Control better than any other ele build.  What niche is left for Scepter other than being the training weapon?  I stand by my earlier comments, that S/D is for more comfortable leveling and until you gain the confidence to use D/D (or decide you really enjoy the Support role which I think Ele does better than anyone else.)

Well, I use a S/F arcane build which allows a better ranged burst than Staff while not being as unforgiving as Dagger/Dagger and providing some very very good utilities. I'll agree that S/D is a contradictory set in itself, even though Dagger Off Hand allows some burst followup to some scepter skills and as such could be made effective as the middle ground set between Staff range and Dagger damage. Which is viable in endgame PvE and possibly zerging WvWvW because in some situations you just want to be versatile.

Edited by Elr3d, 21 December 2012 - 08:22 AM.


#19 Vanillea

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Play what you like. Each of the combination represents a different play style
Staff: range sustain dmg and support/control
D/D: melee burst/sustain dmg with self defense
D/F: meele support with sustain dmg
S/D: flexible range burst dmg and support
S/D: range support and control.

S/D is popular because it is easy to pick up, flexible and stylist ( have all the cool animations Phoenix, Shatter Stone, Trident,....). It by no mean the trainee weapon set.

S/D represents the core mechanic of ele: versatility. Both D/D, Staff, S/F and even D/F have their respective range. S/D doesn't. There is no reason for staff player to be in melee range or D/D player to not stay in melee range. On the other hand, S/D player will have to make decision to whether commit or stay in range depends on the situation and resource. Personally I think S/D is designed for opportunist players who want a lot of actions.

It is a challenge to master any combination. S/D is not as forgiving as people think it is.  If you miss your burst combo, it is not likely to come up anytime soon. Staff skill have higher range, lower CD and big AoE. D/D skills are PBAoE and frontal cone which are not too difficult to land in melee range. I wouldn't say the most versatile weapon set of the most versatile profession is a training weapon set with low skill cap:). I use all combination and constantly switching while out of combat. From 1 to 10, if I have to rate the difficulty to use and master:

Staff:  4 to use , 9 to master
D/D: 5 to use, 8 to master
S/D: 3 to use, 10 to master

#20 ProfGast

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:08 PM

Only taking Combo Fields, Finishers, CCs and Auras we have...

Staff: 2x Fire Fields, 1x Ice Field, 2x Water Fields, 1x Lightning Field, 1x Blast finisher, 1x Projectile Finisher, 1x Aura, 2x CC

D/D: 2x Fire Fields, 2x Blast finisher, 1x Leap Finisher, 2x CC, 2x Aura

S/D: 1X Fire Field, 4x Blast Finisher, 2x Projectile Finisher, 2x CC, 1x Aura

S/F: 1x Fire field, 4x Blast Finisher, 2x Projectile Finisher, 2x CC, 2x Aura

D/F: 1x Fire Field, 2x Blast Finisher, 1x Leap Finisher, 2x CC, 2x Aura

From the above, you can see that Staff by far has the most fields (big surprise there), but that Both scepter types have far and away the most finishers available.  This means in a situation where you already have plenty of fields going up, Scepter is far superior to Dagger or Staff when it comes to taking advantage of combo fields.  I play scepter because I can chain blasts easily during my normal rotation.

#21 Shrimps

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

To be honest I don't enjoy scepter that much :|

It was cool at the beginning whilst leveling up but now I'm simply in love with D/D. The amount of quick AOE damage, especially since I'm in Orr alot, really helps with tagging lots of mobs.

I feel as though if I was farming with a scepter I wouldn't be able to tag as many, simply because a lot of the skills are slower (dragon's tooth and pheonix), where as with D/D I can just burning speed and tag like 20 mobs.

I also usually run staff in Dungeons though, playing more of a support ele

Edited by Shrimps, 22 December 2012 - 01:10 AM.


#22 Aetou

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:45 AM

View PostVanillea, on 21 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

S/D represents the core mechanic of ele: versatility. Both D/D, Staff, S/F and even D/F have their respective range. S/D doesn't. There is no reason for staff player to be in melee range or D/D player to not stay in melee range.

Not really true.  Firstly and most obviously, some fights will force a D/D player out of melee range (even 300 isn't true melee range, however) due to their mechanics.  Less obviously, fight mechanics will sometimes force staff players into melee range (COE P1, for example.)  However, even when fights don't require you to be in melee range there are often big benefits to doing so.  If you're more than 600 from the rest of your group then all of your attunement boons won't be applied to everyone else which is pretty unforgivable (600 from the boss should still be perfectly safe in almost all encounters) but sometimes you'll want to push in even closer.  There are a few reasons to do so, one is that you'll often want to benefit from proximity effects on other players.  Secondly, whenever you are using Staff Water 1 you actually want to be in splash range of your target if possible for an extra 500-1k HPS (you also want to be able to position things like Healing Rain and perhaps even Geyser on both the melee plus yourself.)  Thirdly, there are many times when reduced projectile travel time is beneficial, although a lot of them are PVP related  not all are.  Finally, a lot of you know I'm a big fan of Eruption and one of the major problems with that is keeping mobs inside it if you are running around like crazy - one solution is to keep aggro on yourself and drag them around within the large target area, frequently dodging forward past/through them to take them back into the position you want rather than kiting away from them.

S/D dictates your position based on which attacks you want to use, Staff lets you position yourself optimally at all times - and that is almost never at maximum range and is frequently in shockingly close proximity to enemies.  Go on, try using a staff and fighting right in the faces of your enemies - you'll find it both more fun and more effective (assuming the fact its more dangerous doesn't leave you dead!)

#23 Vanillea

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:47 AM

@Aetou
Putting fight mechanic aside  because you can always switch weapon for the optimal usage: I believe Dagger is most effective at melee range and reward to be at melee range. To only poke from D/D is Vapor Blade. I also think that staff is better utilize its range and most effective at long range. The few time you might want to be at melee as a staff user is to use your dodge as blast finisher ( which is now only on earth). But your team can do the blasting so it is no problem.

In pve, there are a lot of splash and AoE. I don't think it is worth to come into melee range for little extra healing. You shouldn't take a lot of dmg with your range that you absolutely need to position your heal to benefit both you and the bruisers. Most importantly, being in range will give you better vision of the battle field and you can use all your AoE more effectively. Projectile speed is not a major issue since most of the projectiles are auto atk and ele don't rely on auto atk as much as other professions .

It is not that Staff cannot fight at melee range. But its prefer range is definitely not melee. In PvE 600-1200 might not make a different as long as you don't get aggro but in PvP, I would say staffers might want to stay at max range most of the time. IF you enjoy being up clsoe and personal, wouldn't D/D or S/D do a better job with all those PBAoE and self defense? In my opinion, with the EA nerf, melee situaon for staff is high risk and low reward.

#24 Teilion

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostAetou, on 22 December 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

whenever you are using Staff Water 1 you actually want to be in splash range of your target if possible for an extra 500-1k HPS (you also want to be able to position things like Healing Rain and perhaps even Geyser on both the melee plus yourself.)  

+500-1k HPS won't outheal that 9k smack in the face. Speccing into blasting staff makes Healing Rain already retardedly large and if you stay comfortably away from bad guys, there's no need to run into melee just to get piddly Geyser healing. Just sit on soothing mist + regen at max range.


View PostVanillea, on 22 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

I would say staffers might want to stay at max range most of the time. IF you enjoy being up clsoe and personal, wouldn't D/D or S/D do a better job with all those PBAoE and self defense? In my opinion, with the EA nerf, melee situaon for staff is high risk and low reward.

Yes.
Auras all day and EA actually doing work. Specc'd out you have 3 sources of Cleansing Wave on top of Cone of Cold which is awesome.

View PostAetou, on 22 December 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

S/D dictates your position based on which attacks you want to use

Sure S/D has close range skills but it doesn't dictate your position since you have Updraft, RtL, and good chances to proc vigor. The effective range may be less than staff but has way better damage output and being able to be excellent at the range it controls.

#25 Kyris

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostSpelignErrir, on 16 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Obviously haven't tried a condition staff build...a single elementalist traited and properly geared can easily maintain 20 stacks of bleeding in an aoe.
this is useless in group pve though because everyone is stacking bleeds, and there is a limit of 25 stacks, so people will be overwriting your bleeds constantly

direct damage is much better for pve

in pvp those conditions will be removed pretty quickly too

imo condition stacking builds are only good for leveling solo or small group pve

Edited by Kyris, 22 December 2012 - 05:56 PM.


#26 MesmersFromHouseElara

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostMisfitAndy, on 19 December 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

As you mature as a player you will realize that there are certain situations for each weapon.  I usually am equipped with dagger/dagger unless there is something I need to blow up with meteor shower.  Scepter/dagger lost a lot of it's new car smell for me when I started doing dungeons.

I agree with most of what you said except this.  Simply because this implies that i'm an immature player and that's not true.  The reason I started this thread was because I felt the staff offered anything I'd need for any situation (and still feel that way) and didn't understand why that was passed up by so many eles.  But after reading through the replies and watching the topic fall off a cliff, I've realized the obvious: it's all a matter of opinion and it will always be.

#27 Aetou

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostTeilion, on 22 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

+500-1k HPS won't outheal that 9k smack in the face. Speccing into blasting staff makes Healing Rain already retardedly large and if you stay comfortably away from bad guys, there's no need to run into melee just to get piddly Geyser healing. Just sit on soothing mist + regen at max range.

You do realise you can still dodge, right? Being in their face doesn't mean facetanking.  And yes, against things that hit for 9k you will often want to be 300-600 away but my point was more that staff users who stand 1000 away are missing out on so much and the risk of being in closer is perfectly managable, especially against trash or when running solo content.  Similarly, with D/D I just said you should pull out to that range when you were almost dead - not that you should fight there when on full health.  (And for the record, I swap between Staff and D/D for different fights - you still shouldn't be using one of them for everything but for anything one of the two is the best option.)

#28 Nonlinear

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:07 PM

S/D is superior for leveling

D/D is superior for PvP

Staff is superior for endgame PvE (either as DD or CD)

Focus is meh.

Scepter has bad AOE.  

Staff is the superior dungeon weapon whether you go direct or condition damage.  It just is.  Just like D/D is godly in PvP.  It just is.  The D/D guide on the ele official forum is one of the best pvp builds in the game, not just the best pvp ele build.  Other classes (except maybe thieves) complain about the pvp godliness of D/D.  Go read the other classes official forums where every class complains about how D/D has insane mobility and they can't run away (gl with that), have tons of boons and condition removal, auras, LOS attacks, etc. and unless it is 2v1 either try your best to run away or just give up against a good D/D bunker ele because they are so hard to kill.

Bleed is good in PvE but imo it isn't great if you PUG a lot because of the limitations of the bleed stack.  Thief/Ranger in your PUG?  Have fun fighting for bleeds there goes a bunch of your DPS.

#29 Elr3d

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostNonlinear, on 23 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Focus is meh.

Underrated would be more appropriate. Focus is good in PvE as it offers a lot of defensive utilities and control (allowing you to slot more offensive moves in utilities), and absolutely awesome in PvP, and especially WvWvW as it can block treb and catapult shots. Obviously, it doesn't generate the big numbers a Churning Earth does, but that doesn't mean it's bad at all.

Edited by Elr3d, 24 December 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#30 zip

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

USE USELESS LEGENDARIES ON ELE. GO BIG OR GO HOME

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