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GW2 endgame = jump puzzles and mini dungeons.


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#1 fathamburger

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

Seriously :) I think a lot of people have grinded out to 80, finished story and run the dungeons for their gear and think that's all there is to it but have hardly checked out the JP's and mini dungeons at all. Maybe some people think that most of the JPs are just a stupid vista-like 5-10 minute jump up a mountain but many are actually very well designed content in their own right and most have their own zones. IMO you truly haven't finished the game until you've checked them all out.

I've soloed at least half of them and only asked for help when I needed it but whenever I did most people ended up profusely thanking me from bringing them along as they had no idea that the game even had stuff like this etc. I'd say people generally had more fun doing most of these than exploiting/skipping and DPS-ing dungeon content lol. For those reasons I'd say bring some PUGS along from the zone whenever you do them even if you don't need the help. Things will go faster with someone to help res when you fall etc instead of waypointing.

Some mini dungeons are better designed than actual dungeons imo with my favourite ones being Provenic Crypt in Gendarran Fields and Forsaken Halls in Dredgehaunt Cliffs which had a very unique and fun torch/light mechanic. Bring a 5 man to that one though, especially like the NPC hints :)

Anyway here are the lists from the wiki, I haven't finished them all yet but I've been saving the 70-80 ones to hang out with rl friends who are more casual so we can finally do something together lol. Most are also very quick to do, usually under an hour and not more than two. They are also a refreshing reason to go into the PVE zones again.

http://wiki.guildwar.../Jumping_puzzle

http://wiki.guildwar...iki/Minidungeon

Edited by fathamburger, 16 December 2012 - 04:51 PM.


#2 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

Sadly, I agree.

#3 Bloodtau

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

End game is what you make end game.
If you enjoy farming, farming is your end game. If you enjoy exploring, exploration is your end game.

There is no "Players can only do X at end game!"

#4 Velgre

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

I did get my lvl 80 in the first 2 weeks, didn`t play for about a month and came back to have fun again and I still do.
I think some people don`t like jumping puzzles, like me. They are frustrating and simply not fun for me, I did some and I quit doing them because they don`t interest me. Just this makes me not want to do a HUGE amount of contect.

#5 Corvindi

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:29 PM

Am I the only one who imagines the jumping puzzle creation team as a bunch of cackling, mustache twirling sadists whose only goal in life is to make me swear and slam both hands down on my keyboard?

As for instances.  Meh.  Not even remotely interested.  Just playing alts now.  And the TP.

#6 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:47 PM

There is far more content in this game than people realise and thus plenty of people complain without having seen the vast majority of content available to them.

#7 Gerroh

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

End game is map chat.

#8 Omega X

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:07 PM

There is no "End Game" in MMOs. I wish that term would die.

#9 Schwarzseher

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:19 PM

If you want to find fun you will find it.
I tbh do NOT want raids. I HATE 40/25 people raids(I would be fine with 10..somehow).
The 5 people dungeons are actually quiet refreshing because I don't want to do a raif for hours.
Also about people complaining about jumping puzzles: You're doing something wrong. MAYBE you play a full sized norn or a charr..that could explain it(which is dumb I agree 100%). Or maybe you have double tap dodging->disable and it gets easy.
Also if you really have trouble with it use the force...eh youtube. I managed to easily finish the Clocktower back then by looking at how it works.

#10 fathamburger

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:05 AM

Not all races are equal when it comes to jumping. The asura is generally the best, very fast and best manueverability and long jump distance, their height can be an issue but most jump puzzles are about speed and distance. Sylvari are a little slower but jumps further than the asura with no jump delay, average jump height. Norn are average without jump delay but the large size can impede visibility. Human females have a small delay (males do not) before jumping and also when landing and Charr are the all around worst for jumping, short distance and low height and bigger size that can be a problem. These factors can make jump puzzles either very enjoyable or very frustrating. I have all 5 races :)

Edited by fathamburger, 17 December 2012 - 03:06 AM.


#11 Glider

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:51 AM

View Postfathamburger, on 17 December 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

Not all races are equal when it comes to jumping. The asura is generally the best, very fast and best manueverability and long jump distance, their height can be an issue but most jump puzzles are about speed and distance. Sylvari are a little slower but jumps further than the asura with no jump delay, average jump height. Norn are average without jump delay but the large size can impede visibility. Human females have a small delay (males do not) before jumping and also when landing and Charr are the all around worst for jumping, short distance and low height and bigger size that can be a problem. These factors can make jump puzzles either very enjoyable or very frustrating. I have all 5 races :)
What the?
There's actually zero difference in jumping height and distance between the races. Only things that differ are camera height and model/animation.

Edited by Glider, 17 December 2012 - 06:52 AM.


#12 Arquenya

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:02 PM

View PostXunlai Agent, on 16 December 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

There is far more content in this game than people realise and thus plenty of people complain without having seen the vast majority of content available to them.
isn't that true for most games?

It's just that different things appeal to different people. I gave up exploration because I found it getting really annoying; all the jump puzzles (and some POIs) that in 99% of the cases actually are more like "seek the hidden entrance" than anything that has to do with jumping. I even seem to have completed 4 "special" jump puzzles without knowing it?!

Personally I'm more of a GW kind of player that liked to play with skill and build setups and gets happy when we complete a dungeon really fast and smoothly, like killing the Giganticus Lupicus in one go and no deaths.

#13 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostArquenya, on 17 December 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

isn't that true for most games?

It's just that different things appeal to different people. I gave up exploration because I found it getting really annoying; all the jump puzzles (and some POIs) that in 99% of the cases actually are more like "seek the hidden entrance" than anything that has to do with jumping. I even seem to have completed 4 "special" jump puzzles without knowing it?!

Personally I'm more of a GW kind of player that liked to play with skill and build setups and gets happy when we complete a dungeon really fast and smoothly, like killing the Giganticus Lupicus in one go and no deaths.
It's definitely true for other games as well, but I feel that the Guild Wars 2 community is too quick to dismiss the endgame possibilities without having looked at the options available to them. In addition ArenaNet is now pumping out Fractals and previously they released the Lost Shores, so I think they are addressing the content issue!

#14 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:52 PM

View PostXunlai Agent, on 17 December 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

It's definitely true for other games as well, but I feel that the Guild Wars 2 community is too quick to dismiss the endgame possibilities without having looked at the options available to them. In addition ArenaNet is now pumping out Fractals and previously they released the Lost Shores, so I think they are addressing the content issue!

The problem is that A.Net has been going for quantity over quality. Sure, there's A LOT of things to do, but A LOT of those things really aren't particularly good, or at least not as good as they could have been if A.Net simply wouldn't have stretch itself so thin.
I would have gladly given up on ALL of crafting, ALL of underwater combat, all of the jumping puzzles, all of the vistas, all of the skill challenges, a few of the SPvP maps, a few of the classes, a few of the races, ... and have those resources spent among the remaining content instead.

#15 fathamburger

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

View PostGlider, on 17 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

What the?
There's actually zero difference in jumping height and distance between the races. Only things that differ are camera height and model/animation.

Nope, we've tested this. Especially the distance. The lag I mention is inherent in the animation too, # of frames and speed they animate at is a factor. JP's were not in the original game design otherwise they would have locked this stuff down more closely. I just did Griffonrook Run again on my Norn, no jump delay but there is the same sort of "human" lag in actually going higher and forward. Another way to look at it is that the Sylvari and Asura have less to animate in finishing/reaching the apex of their jump animations. It's subtle but I saw it in the Mad King as well as Wintersday JP's, Asura and Sylvari were consistently ahead and finishing more while I saw Charr and human females fail quite a lot and fail early.

The height thing is most obvious if you remember the first block in the Mad King puzzle after the cogs exploded for you to jump on. There is this block that are a problem for Asura to jump over potentially since they don't have as much height while the taller races probably don't even remember that block being a problem.

Edited by fathamburger, 17 December 2012 - 03:04 PM.


#16 Arquenya

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

View PostProtoss, on 17 December 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

The problem is that A.Net has been going for quantity over quality. Sure, there's A LOT of things to do, but A LOT of those things really aren't particularly good, or at least not as good as they could have been if A.Net simply wouldn't have stretch itself so thin.
I would have gladly given up on ALL of crafting, ALL of underwater combat, all of the jumping puzzles, all of the vistas, all of the skill challenges, a few of the SPvP maps, a few of the classes, a few of the races, ... and have those resources spent among the remaining content instead.
Couldn't agree more. Don't forget the 100s of storyline quests and 80 levels.

View Postfathamburger, on 17 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Asura and Sylvari were consistently ahead and finishing more while I saw Charr and human females fail quite a lot and fail early.
No wonder I still haven't been able to complete the Winter Wonderland puzzle after 100 tries -.-

#17 Featherman

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:16 PM

Endgame and the expectations that the term has engendered has a become a restriction rather than a guideline. I say this because everyone enjoys their endgame differently. To me that term just means an activity with which communities of like minded individuals can gravitate towards and enjoy together even after already beating it. To others its a pure skinner box they can return to for easy gratification after a hard day.

That said, if jumping puzzles and minidungeons are your endgame then more power to you since that's exactly what ANet is focusing on. For those like me who are hoping for improvements in sPvP and WvWvW we're kind of getting the short end of the stick.

#18 Craywulf

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:19 PM

The mere existence of the term endgame is pure ignorance from certain gamers who don't know how to just play a game as intended. GW2 isn't a subscription-based game. You're not obligated to stick around, and there's no need to race through the game so you be prepared for so-called endless content that simply doesn't exist in ANY game. Even in subscription-based games like WoW or Rift, you repeat raids over and over until you're bored.

Endgame is a myth.

#19 raspberry jam

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

View PostOmega X, on 16 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

There is no "End Game" in MMOs. I wish that term would die.
Endgame in MMOs is what other games call replayability. The difference is that MMOs are premised on that the endgame is somehow worth playing, which gives people a reason to get through the first (leveling) part, which is invariably boring and tedious, the only point of light in it being the expectation that once you reach your goal, the game is going to open up and become wonderful. That illusion is what creates the (completely necessary) obsession around endgame.

But it is a real thing.

#20 fathamburger

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 17 December 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

That said, if jumping puzzles and minidungeons are your endgame then more power to you since that's exactly what ANet is focusing on. For those like me who are hoping for improvements in sPvP and WvWvW we're kind of getting the short end of the stick.

actually I was kinda being bitter and sarcastic but in a humorous tone on that :) I agree with you but I was also saying that for EQ/WoW trained "Rush to endgame" types that think things are over by 80 that they might actually not be. I'd say these have at least extended out the PVE another couple of weeks for me taking things leisurely.

View PostProtoss, on 17 December 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

The problem is that A.Net has been going for quantity over quality. Sure, there's A LOT of things to do, but A LOT of those things really aren't particularly good, or at least not as good as they could have been if A.Net simply wouldn't have stretch itself so thin.
I would have gladly given up on ALL of crafting, ALL of underwater combat, all of the jumping puzzles, all of the vistas, all of the skill challenges, a few of the SPvP maps, a few of the classes, a few of the races, ... and have those resources spent among the remaining content instead.

Disagree on this, the variety is probably the cornerstone of the GW2 philosophy. I would not think as highly of the game if there wasn't so many things to do that you could spread across multiple characters to have a unique levelling experience on each one.

View PostArquenya, on 17 December 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

No wonder I still haven't been able to complete the Winter Wonderland puzzle after 100 tries -.-

Its not impossible but it does reduce the margin of error if you're playing one of the "gimp" race/sex combinations. For example I was able to derp a lot of the wintersday puzzle i.e. jump from the middle of the snowflake as opposed to the edge and still make the jumps as a Sylvari whereas that would get me killed on my human female quite easily. Same for mad king. Really had to "perfect play" things on the mad king with my Human female just to barely keep up, while I had an Asuran friend just derp the whole thing and skip blocks entirely while the human had to use pretty much every "safety" block and lose a lot more time. I actually don't think there was enough time to complete it unless you used the "buffered jump" technique where you essentially "buffer" your jump as you land and release as soon as you land to jump again.

#21 Budzasty

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:30 PM

There is no such thing as end game in guild wars 2. The only thing that changes with levels is complexity. You get more maps, events, dungeons, skills and traits to choose. And mobs/events gets tougher too. This works like in any game, you want to learn basic first and get more challenge later.

What you do at lvl 80? It's  a bit like sand box game, you choose what you like depending on your personality. Completionists can go for world exploration and legendary items, social/rp peeps for cosmetics/pets/various funny consumables, teamplayers have dungeons/WvW, SPvP are for more competitive guys, explorers have hidden lore/places/mini dungeons all over the maps. Guess I could give more examples but you should get the idea by now.

There is no "raid or die" in this game. You are not punished for not doing WvW or sPvP or dungeons resulting as being inferior. Look at the shitstorm that went after ascendent gear, which is really minor thing(though I still expect ANet to put this gear into all activities - WvW, crafting, dungeons, overworld mobs and exploration). But this was just a beautiful summer rainy day compared to what would you see if they added raid with some uber gear like in every other MMO.

Personally, until I can have 8 lvl 80 that I don't have to put weeks of effort to gear up to a decent level to do whatever I want at the moment, I'm happy quaggan. This was impossible in my old MMOs(LOTRO/WoW), where maintenance around characters was huge. I understand some miss that, but there are plenty MMOs built around gear progression to play.

Edited by Budzasty, 17 December 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#22 Featherman

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

View Postfathamburger, on 17 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

actually I was kinda being bitter and sarcastic but in a humorous tone on that :) I agree with you but I was also saying that for EQ/WoW trained "Rush to endgame" types that think things are over by 80 that they might actually not be. I'd say these have at least extended out the PVE another couple of weeks for me taking things leisurely.
Oh I derp. I totally agree with you now that I've know your intent.

#23 zabiku

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

I really don't mind the game's endgame, I just wish it was more entertaining. I know that a lot of people are actually very content with Jump Puzzles, just the problem is with jump puzzles, after you do it once you pretty much have no reason to do it again. I wish that most jump puzzles were dynamic meaning there were multiple ways and multiple rewards that could be achieved based off those ways. Also something along the lines of perhaps the puzzles themselves changing up each week, like physically changing their geography and paths so that after running it 2-3 times one way you still can't be sure as to what you might end up facing. All they need to do really is have 2-4 different map plans for a puzzle and that would keep people busy and then continue to add more and get creative with it so that each puzzle had their own uniqueness to the zone they were in other than just the surrounding.

Regarding the mini-dungeons, that in all really isn't that bad its just the fact that they're so painfully dull. I know people talk about GW1 and what not and when someone makes a comparison people rage, but I would like to talk about one "dungeon" I guess you could call it in Factions that really WOW'd me. I'm talking about the first one you really run into off the starter island where you're trying to take down the necromancers and those deformed undead/mutant mobs. You ran with your team, but there were 2 dungeons running at the same time, each one was different, and as your running it you come to a game for the final boss fight and this is what wow'd me. You wait a while if the other side of the dungeon was moving slow until they reached the same point iirc and then your part of what was it like 8? would be ushered into this main room WITH THE OTHER TEAM OF 8 PEOPLE don't the alternate route of the dungeon and so its 16 people literally duking it out and working together to stop the necromancer's abominations from taking over and it was literally like a zerg rush of mobs constantly piling in until you were done fighting the waves and face the final boss. It was fun it was different and it really made me want to do it again because I had honestly never seen something where you would be teamed up with another party (or NPCs if no one else was running it) and it still brings a smile to my face as I type this because I miss things like that.

Lol..I realize this is riddled with errors but I'm not going to bother editting them lol enjoy ;-;

Edited by zabiku, 18 December 2012 - 09:21 AM.


#24 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

View Postfathamburger, on 17 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Disagree on this, the variety is probably the cornerstone of the GW2 philosophy. I would not think as highly of the game if there wasn't so many things to do that you could spread across multiple characters to have a unique levelling experience on each one.

Despite the fact that you do the same thing over and over and over again, I love games such as Portal, Orcs Must Die! and Tetris more than I'll EVER love GW2. Those games take one idea and execute it almost perfectly.
I'd take that over 3 million half-baked ideas that can be found in GW2 any day.

#25 Levistis

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

I love Vexas Lab, it's a great one. Very, very well designed, and it came out with the Halloween update.

#26 Glider

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

View Postfathamburger, on 17 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Nope, we've tested this. Especially the distance.
How do you test it? Is there a jump sylvari can do while charr can't?
Otherwise I think it's just perception.

Edited by Glider, 17 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#27 Stigma

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

To answer this existential question ... what is the end game in all other MMOs?

I'm not defending GW2 here but in reality for other MMOs you pay $10-15/month and it's justified by a much slower exp leveling  system. And the end game is waiting for the new $30 expansion that raises the level cap and new gear that you can grind some more while still paying $15/mo to wait for that expansion.

Edited by Stigma, 18 December 2012 - 04:03 AM.


#28 omar316

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Endgame in MMOs is what other games call replayability. The difference is that MMOs are premised on that the endgame is somehow worth playing, which gives people a reason to get through the first (leveling) part, which is invariably boring and tedious, the only point of light in it being the expectation that once you reach your goal, the game is going to open up and become wonderful. That illusion is what creates the (completely necessary) obsession around endgame.

But it is a real thing.

You. Me. Love. Fan.

#29 Zero_Soulreaver

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

Endgame in GW2 is no different than what you have been doing the entire time, it's not like content suddenly changes at 80 except fractals maybe...but still you don't have to be max lv for most content.  The issue most people have is that before you hit 80 you have already done mostly everything and if you decided you didn't like some content nothing stops you from never doing it again.


The biggest issue I have with GW2 is they don't ease you into content, they just say "here's everything now do what you want".
So now you have choices on what to do, but if you try something and don't like it you have no incentive to do it or care about it.  Some will say this is the players fault, but I find it faulty game design.  You should be trying to push ppl onto content not away from it.

Pretty much when I hit max lv I just kept doing dungeons and puzzles then I got all exotics and was so bored. Now fractals are out but I long stopped playing and the monthly content that is out now just seems so flavor of the week.  I feel like the game needs something more substantial rather than waiting for the next holiday event and crossing your fingers it  will last you a few more weeks of play.

Everyone keeps saying their is so much content, but if you already started doing at lower lvs it's not much when you hit 80.

#30 drkn

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:21 PM

GW2 endgame = PvP.
Like in most MMOs.

Even the final rewards for personal story hint that you should go into W3 now.

As in each and every online game out there - either get social and keep playing for the people (make friends in your guild, organise server-wide social events, do something for the community) or get competitive and keep playing for beating other people (PvP, breaking records).




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