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“The Need to be in Melee Range”


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#1 Alaroxr

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

This thread is copied from the official forums:

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“The Guardian is a heavy armor class who relies on boons to make up for their low levels of innate health. They focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.”

-Survival is from boons + armor
-Focus on area control and positioning
-Rely on boons
-Need to be in melee range

This essentially defines what the Guardian is; I think ArenaNet has mostly achieved this vision of the Guardian. However, the design itself has one glaring flaw. ‘Need to be in melee range’; this is the Guardian’s paradox.

Guardians don’t have comparatively powerful burst. Guardians don’t have powerful ranged weaponry (or effective long-range weaponry). Guardians don’t have massive health pools. But, they are the anti-attrition Profession and can stay in a fight for a long time, and they have reliable melee damage. Their ranged capacity is not reliable at anywhere beyond 600 range or so, and to be effective, as ArenaNet indicates and as any Guardian knows, you have to be in melee range. This is the contradiction.

Guardians are by far the most dependent on melee combat in the game, and yet they lack the tools to stay within melee range.
The following is the entire arsenal the Guardian has to stay in melee range (which they are designed to rely on):

3 Immobilizes
1 Chill
3 Gap closers (1 leap; 2 teleports)
3 Wards
3 Swiftness Abilities
1 Pull

Immobilizes: There are 2 at 900 and 1200 range, and a projectile that goes to 1200 range. They are on the Scepter, Utility Skill, and Hammer respectively. They tend to be quite reliable and effective.

Chill: It is a 2nd tier Major trait in Valor that lasts 4s/45s and requires the Hammer and critical hit activation. It’s useful only if you have a Hammer with a critical build, and is only reliable at the start of battle.

Gap Closers: There are two teleports, a Utility on a 45s cooldown and a Sword skill on a 10s cooldown. The Leap is 15s on the Greatsword. They are good at bad. The Utility has a 1200 range, but requires a target and has a long cooldown. The Sword is on a short cooldown but also requires a target. The Leap has a moderate cooldown and can be used in a variety of ways. The problem with the teleports is that you need a target, so they can’t be used for movement or evasion; only gap closing. Overall they are adequate at the very least, but effective if you have multiple.

Wards: One line on a 45s cooldown with a 5 seconds duration, a ring on a 45s cooldown with a 5 second duration, and a dome on a 120s cooldown with a 6s duration. The line tends to be impractical because it immobilizes you when you cast, so actually trapping enemies becomes a problem. There is also an issue where enemies can bounce through the ward, rendering it useless. There is another problem of where enemies who receive the knockdown from running into the ward become temporarily unhittable. The dome can be useful in the right situations, especially if traited for ground casting. Overall they are effective in the right situations, but only the Ring tends to be reliable.

Swiftness: Most Professions can now have passive +25% movement speed, and most have access to easy swiftness. For example, the Engineer can gain permanent swiftness by 10 points in a trait line and having 1 kit equipped. The Warrior can gain 50% swiftness uptime by one skill on an off-hand. The Guardian can only achieve a similar level by sacrificing melee or by sacrificing 2 utility skills. This poses a significant problem for Guardians in PvP unless they can also have as much movement speed, since they are designed to be melee-dependent.

They can either switch to Staff and gain 8s swiftness and be stuck using a staff (which is not a powerful combat weapon), or by taking the shouts Retreat and Save Yourselves, which barely meet 50% duration (and both are on a 60s cooldown). If the boon is stripped, this effectively nullifies the sole reason for taking 2 long cooldown utilities.

Edit: Retreat traited with 10 points in Honor can reach close to 50% swiftness duration, but it still suffers from the same issues mentioned above (in addition to also requiring a trait).

Pull: The pull affects 5 enemies at 600 range and is on a 30s cooldown. It’s the best AoE pull in the game and pairs well with the rest of the Greatsword. However, it is the Guardian’s only pull.

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Overall, the Guardian is dependent on melee combat, but has comparatively few tools to stay in melee combat. They have 3 ways to quickly close the gap, but the Utility is usually a one-use skill due to the cooldown, which leaves 2 melee weapons with no gap closer. If the Guardian can manage to effectively close the gap, they still can not reliably keep the enemy from moving away due to lack of cripples/chills and only a handful of short duration immobilizes, and the Guardian lacks the speed to keep up with the enemy in the first place. The CC is effective when used continuously, but the Guardian doesn't have massive burst like the Warrior or Thief, and blowing all cooldowns leaves them unable to stay in melee range for an extended period

IMO: The base of the profession is solid, but it is incomplete. The supportive mechanics are there, as are the survival mechanics. The damaging mechanics are also solid. However, the mechanics aren’t functional due to “the need to be in melee range” not being fully supported There are numerous small changes that can, and in my opinion, should be made to address this issue.

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That’s my view of the problem, what’s yours?

Edited by Alaroxr, 24 December 2012 - 07:35 AM.


#2 Soryuju

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

You might also want to mention the few knockdown skills the Guardian has access to in the first post, particularly Bane Signet and the Hammer of Wisdom.  Bane Signet has a fairly short duration, and untraited Hammers will disappear when commanded, but both can still be used for some extra control.

Overall, I agree with you, and I believe this last patch exacerbated the issues we have with mobility and being kited.  The movement speed buffs that Mesmers, Rangers, Eles, Necros, and Thieves got will make it even easier for them to kite us if they choose to take advantage of these skills/traits, and since weapon/utility swapping during matches is now disabled, the Guardian can no longer swap in Staff when out of combat to traverse maps more quickly.  While I believe that banning weapon-swapping may be a healthy change for the game overall, it leaves us as the class with the least overall mobility in the game.  As you said, we have to invest much more than any other class to achieve results similar to theirs, and even when we do, our lack of ground-targeted teleports still leaves us as being mediocre at best.

Typically, I get around these weaknesses by just trying to fight on a point whenever possible, and it works to a respectable degree.  However, we can't always choose where to engage, and the more room an opponent has to kite us, the weaker we become.  If Anet ever releases other game modes, I'm worried that there will be a huge disparity in the Guardian's effectiveness in these modes and in Conquest, since these modes may not have mechanics that force close engagements.

Personally, I think that our Scepter, while unimpressive as a ranged weapon in its current state, could be the solution after some changes.  If Guardians aren't supposed to excel at range, I don't mind the scepter not being a godly ranged weapon, but I think at the least, it should be an anti-kiting weapon.  Right now, two of its skills do nothing but straight damage, and the third is an Immobilize.  The idea's come up on the official forums to put a Cripple on Smite, and I honestly feel like this would be a fantastic solution.  I'd happily take lower damage and perhaps a slightly longer recharge (8-10 seconds?) on Smite if it pulsed 1-2 seconds of Cripple to characters standing inside of it for its duration. This would make it much easier for us to close gaps, fulfilling Anet's vision of the Guardian as a primarily melee fighter,  and it would give our projectiles a decent chance of hitting opponents in situations where we need to stay at a distance (though a speed boost would still be merited, in light of the projectile speed buff other classes got).

Overall, I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with where the Guardian is at, but I agree that there is definitely room for improvement, since our primary weaknesses seem to be growing more pronounced as we see more patches and other classes continue to evolve.

Edited by Soryuju, 16 December 2012 - 08:25 PM.


#3 Alaroxr

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

View PostSoryuju, on 16 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

snip

You're right; I should have included Bane Signet and HoW. Bane Signet functions almost identically to Signet of Wrath (so that's very good), and Hammer of Wisdom is also good. The only problems with Hammer of Wisdom are that Spirit Weapons generally require traits to be very effective, and Hammer of Wisdom is only good when enemies are already close to you. It tends to unreliable at that since it requires a full chain (unless you use the Command, which requires traits to not make it disappear).

-----------

Everything else is pretty much spot on.

Edited by Alaroxr, 16 December 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#4 JaxSilven

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

Fortunately PvP is balanced on 'tpvp' and not wvw where people are forced onto points, I have never felt that something can outkite me purely because I don't have enough snares, because I do. Not to mention Judge's Intervention can be used in conjunction with a skill that would normally be out of range to snare an enemy.

It looks like just a complaint about not being able to catch people in WvW, where you can easily maintain perma swiftness, and with judge's, wrath, chains and gs pull you can keep people controlled for ages.

#5 Ezra

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

With the new 25% passive Signets many classes can run rings around a Guardian.

Classes that operated with a ranged weapon at mid ranges are even trickier to pin down now.

Trying to hit a Thief/Mesmer/Ele/Ranger using a 25% passive speed signet with the Scepter is an exercise in futility. You get to land 2s of hits every 15s.

The fight at Foefire mid is harder now because true ranged classes still have a big advantage with the large point for you to cover, and now more classes have an extra mobility advantage whether they play close or mid range.


If you just sit on a point Silven you'll get destroyed by Wells, Traps, Caltrops, general ranged attacks etc.

#6 Alaroxr

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:30 AM

View PostJaxSilven, on 17 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

It looks like just a complaint about not being able to catch people in WvW, where you can easily maintain perma swiftness, and with judge's, wrath, chains and gs pull you can keep people controlled for ages.

Explain to me how to achieve perma-swiftness without using 2 shouts and staying in Staff rather than a melee weapon.

-------

Explain to me how using a gap closer, a 4s total immobilize and a GS pull = "keep people controlled for ages". I guess by "ages" you mean about 6s assuming they don't CC you, remove conditions, break stun, or use a mobility skill.

After that 6s, all of your CC is on cooldown, and all you have to rely on is Swiftness (which can easily be removed and is hard to reapply). The enemy can also then CC you with cripple/chill/immobilize/stun/daze/knockback/knockdown/launch or simply use a movement skill, meaning you're out of melee range and have no gap closer.

Edited by Alaroxr, 17 December 2012 - 02:39 AM.


#7 lollasaurus

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:46 AM

share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Rifle warriors would beg to differ!

#8 Alaroxr

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostNotKMoose, on 17 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

Rifle warriors would beg to differ!

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Edited by Alaroxr, 17 December 2012 - 02:55 AM.


#9 Ezra

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

Warriors also get an easy access trait to increase movement speed when holding melee weapons.

#10 JaxSilven

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 17 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Explain to me how to achieve perma-swiftness without using 2 shouts and staying in Staff rather than a melee weapon.

-------

Explain to me how using a gap closer, a 4s total immobilize and a GS pull = "keep people controlled for ages". I guess by "ages" you mean about 6s assuming they don't CC you, remove conditions, break stun, or use a mobility skill.

After that 6s, all of your CC is on cooldown, and all you have to rely on is Swiftness (which can easily be removed and is hard to reapply). The enemy can also then CC you with cripple/chill/immobilize/stun/daze/knockback/knockdown/launch or simply use a movement skill, meaning you're out of melee range and have no gap closer.

Weapon swapping isn't prevented like it is in tpvp.
And you clearly don't have enough damage or something if your enemy uses all their stunbreaks and you do nothing noteworthy.

#11 Alaroxr

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostJaxSilven, on 17 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Weapon swapping isn't prevented like it is in tpvp.

We're talking about in-combat, obviously.

View PostJaxSilven, on 17 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

And you clearly don't have enough damage or something if your enemy uses all their stunbreaks and you do nothing noteworthy.

Never said you can't do something noteworthy in 6s. However, you have 6s after popping all of your cooldowns; the enemy has as long as they want since they can keep kiting you for the next 20 or so while all your CC is on cooldown. Not to mention you've just shown the enemy exactly what all of your CC is and your rotation, so the next time you use that they can easily counter it (assuming they're at least decent).

Edited by Alaroxr, 17 December 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#12 JaxSilven

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 17 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

We're talking about in-combat, obviously.



Never said you can't do something noteworthy in 6s. However, you have 6s after popping all of your cooldowns; the enemy has as long as they want since they can keep kiting you for the next 20 or so while all your CC is on cooldown. Not to mention you've just shown the enemy exactly what all of your CC is and your rotation, so the next time you use that they can easily counter it (assuming they're at least decent).

Post your build I don't understand your problem.

#13 Alaroxr

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

View PostJaxSilven, on 18 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Post your build I don't understand your problem.

I'm referencing your build. The entire basis of our conversation here is off of your first remark which I responded to...

View PostJaxSilven, on 17 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

where you can easily maintain perma swiftness, and with judge's, wrath, chains and gs pull you can keep people controlled for ages.

This isn't going anywhere. Agree to disagree.

Edited by Alaroxr, 18 December 2012 - 07:56 PM.


#14 KirbyGotenksabsorbed

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

I think this problem could be fixed rather easily by simply giving the Guardian some ranged options which aren't awful. ie. increase scepter projectile velocity and/or change staff #1. I mean, I know people go on and on about how the Guardian is supposed to be melee, but this applies to warriors as well and yet they have fantastic ranged options. Why is this not the case with guardians?

Edited by KirbyGotenksabsorbed, 18 December 2012 - 11:29 PM.


#15 JaxSilven

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:34 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 18 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I'm referencing your build. The entire basis of our conversation here is off of your first remark which I responded to...



This isn't going anywhere. Agree to disagree.

You don't make any sense, the Guardian is fine, I wanted to see your build to see why you're having such a problem.

#16 Red_Falcon

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

That's the reason I quit Guardian.
Any non-sucky player is more than capable of keeping the gaps open with a Guardian, and even if you play godlike they'll run before death.

Sure, Guardian is a great point-holder but a terrible, terrible attacker against anyone with a clue of the game.

#17 TenorMadness

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

I'm new to pvp and am experiencing these same issues with my guardian. I didn't realize weapon swapping was disabled. I was in a match just last night and was able to swap between my two sets. Is that what you're talking about?

#18 ProfGast

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostSoryuju, on 16 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

The movement speed buffs that Mesmers, Rangers, Eles, Necros, and Thieves got will make it even easier for them to kite us if they choose to take advantage of these skills/traits, and since weapon/utility swapping during matches is now disabled, the Guardian can no longer swap in Staff when out of combat to traverse maps more quickly.

View PostEzra, on 17 December 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

With the new 25% passive Signets many classes can run rings around a Guardian.

Classes that operated with a ranged weapon at mid ranges are even trickier to pin down now.

Trying to hit a Thief/Mesmer/Ele/Ranger using a 25% passive speed signet with the Scepter is an exercise in futility.
I feel like there's some sort of gross conceptual error going on here.  Mesmers do not have a 25% swiftness signet.
Thief: Shadows.
Necro: Locust
Ele: Air
Ranger: Hunt

Mesmer: Buff to Signet of inspiration (random boons) and increased swiftness uptime from Temporal Curtain (Offhand focus).  That said, Guardians are very sad as far as movement speed goes right now...

#19 ZCKS

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:13 AM

I have a few ideas that could lessen this problem somewhat,

#1: Change the #1 skill on the scepter into a slightly more powerful version of the #1 downed guardian skill.

#2: Change the #2 skill on the scepter into a moderate speed light orb that explodes on impact for AOE damage.

#3: Take the bonus condition damage passive off of "Signet of Wrath"  (condition damage is horrible for guardians anyway). Instead have it give a passive +25% movement speed increase.

#4: Change the radiance grandmaster trait "Perfect Incriptions", As is it only gives +18 to whatever stat the passive bonus on a signet is. Instead make it so that it causes signets to always give their passive effect, even after being activated.

#3: The specific weapon traits. (As is they majorly suck). Change them so that they do the following

Scepter Power: Scepter attacks do +5% damage & have a X% chance on critical hit to cripple your foe (chance & duratioon of the cripple can be debated)
Greatsword Power: Greatsword attacks do +5% damage & gain an additional 10% critical damage.
Focused Mastery: Focus skills recharge 20% faster & Ray of judgment bounces 2 additional times.
Powerful Blades: Sword & spear attacks do +5% damage & have a X% chance to cause bleeding on critical hits. (if done right this could make condition based stats & gameplay decent for guardians, the bleed duration & chance to proc can be debated)
Radiant Fire: Torch skills recharge 15% faster & while wielding a torch you gain X of Y stat.
Mace of Justice: Mace damage is increased by 5% and Critical hits with a mace have a X% chance to apply weakness. (chance & duratioon of weakness can be debated)
Glacial Heart: Change the name and what it does. Instead have it increase hammer damage by 5% and cause critical hits with the hammer to have a X% chance to make your foe vulnerable  (chance & duratioon of the vulnerability can be debated)

Several of these help to solve ranged issues but all of them make the individual weapon traits something to consider using.

#20 Dirame

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

I find it quite easy to stay in melee range, as long as I have my trusty immobilize signet and teleports..... and leaps....

#21 Snowulf

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:16 AM

Warrior's All classes rifle guns: magic homing bullets on attack 1.
Guardian's scepter: "magical" orbs that barely move faster than run speed and can't home in on a target.

That is the main issue imho.

Edited by Snowulf, 24 December 2012 - 01:41 AM.


#22 Alaroxr

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:20 AM

View PostDirame, on 24 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

I find it quite easy to stay in melee range, as long as I have my trusty immobilize signet and teleports..... and leaps....

Which is one of the best possible set ups for a Guardian, meaning you need to use 2 utilities and both weapon sets for 1 immobilize, 1 leap, and 2 teleports.

I imagine this works well enough in sPvP when you go GS/Sword SoW and JI. If your playstyle matches Sword and GS perfectly, then you're in luck. However, you can't be very supportive or tanky: all or nothing.

Personally I used to use Hammer/GS both with Sigil of Hydromancy, with 2 Signets and Judge's Intervention.

Edited by Alaroxr, 24 December 2012 - 07:36 AM.


#23 Trei

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:45 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 16 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

That’s my view of the problem, what’s yours?
In other words, you are saying you are being kited to death all the time... ?
By every other class?

Is that the gist of it?

#24 Alaroxr

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:21 AM

View PostTrei, on 24 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

In other words, you are saying you are being kited to death all the time... ?
By every other class?

Is that the gist of it?

Nope, I'm saying the Guardian's tools for staying in melee range are low in number and need to be reworked. Apparently if I think something needs reworking I'm bad? (either you're insinuating that or you're just trolling)

Imagine if Warriors never had any cripples on any weapon set. If I were a Warrior making a thread like this if that was the case, I'd also apparently be called bad even though the Warrior's current cripples are generally considered balanced.

You know absolutely nothing about my playstyle or experiences in PvP, so just stick to discussing Guardian balance.

Edited by Alaroxr, 24 December 2012 - 07:37 AM.


#25 Trei

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 24 December 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Nope, I'm saying the Guardian's tools for staying in melee range are low in number and need to be reworked. Apparently if I think something needs reworking I'm bad? (either you're insinuating that or you're just trolling)

Imagine if Warriors never had any cripples on any weapon set. If I were a Warrior making a thread like this if that was the case, I'd also apparently be called bad even though the Warrior's current cripples are generally considered balanced.

You know absolutely nothing about my playstyle or experiences in PvP, so just stick to discussing Guardian balance.
My apologies, I was not trying to insinuate anything, nor did I mean any disrespect.

In fact, not only do I not know how you play, I actually know next to nothing about the guardian profession.

I was just curious about what you mean by not enough gap closers.
To my noobish understanding, if I can't stay in melee enough, then I'm almost always going to get kited to death by any ranged player worth his salt.

Is that what is happening to guardian players who choose not to take those limited few options?

Are guardians stuck with no choice but to use up their available utility slots for these stay in melee skills, and weapons, just to be viable?

Might there be another intention to the skill set design of the profession?

Perhaps guardians are indeed weak at this aspect of combat, but is buffing it the only answer or fix?

Is there nothing else that guardians are terrific at that could possibly mitigate this particular weakness?

Edited by Trei, 24 December 2012 - 02:16 PM.


#26 Alaroxr

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostTrei, on 24 December 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

snip

I'm sorry as well, I misinterpreted your post entirely.

I believe the current design of Guardians is based upon them being in a group supporting them, meaning they're meant to rely on other people to hold down enemies while they support them, rather than being able to go solo. The solo builds we have are all basically survival and bunker, which just mean we can survive being kited, not that we can prevent it. If you're of the style where you let enemies come to you, then the Guardian excels at this. This is why almost every Guardian you see runs 30 points in Valor for Altruistic Healing and is bunker based. However, outside of defending capture points in sPvP this doesn't work very well.

You CAN dedicate your entire build for being able to attack and stay in melee combat, however you have to sacrifice survival, support, and lack the burst that other melee damage dedicated Thieves/Warriors have. Even then, it's mostly burst of CC and damage, then trying to catch up, then burst of CC and damage, then trying to catch up.

If you go GS/Sword with Judge's Intervention (1 leap and 2 teleports), you'll be able to keep closing the gap, however you don't have Swiftness, Cripples, or Chills to stay there. If an enemy has Swiftness then you'll have a second to do your damage. If you get crippled or chilled, you'll have the same issue. You can try to remedy this by either using Sigil of Hydromancy or "Retreat". Sigil of Hydromancy is universal for all Professions. "Retreat" has a 60s cooldown and gives 20s of Swiftness, meaning it's not reliable.

Edited by Alaroxr, 24 December 2012 - 10:50 PM.


#27 Dirame

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:30 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 24 December 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Which is one of the best possible set ups for a Guardian, meaning you need to use 2 utilities and both weapon sets for 1 immobilize, 1 leap, and 2 teleports.

I imagine this works well enough in sPvP when you go GS/Sword SoW and JI. If your playstyle matches Sword and GS perfectly, then you're in luck. However, you can't be very supportive or tanky: all or nothing.

Personally I used to use Hammer/GS both with Sigil of Hydromancy, with 2 Signets and Judge's Intervention.

For me that's gap closer overload. I could easily keep up with someone with just the immob and flashing blade. I don't even need the greatsword.

#28 Trei

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 24 December 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

I'm sorry as well, I misinterpreted your post entirely.

I believe the current design of Guardians is based upon them being in a group supporting them, meaning they're meant to rely on other people to hold down enemies while they support them, rather than being able to go solo. The solo builds we have are all basically survival and bunker, which just mean we can survive being kited, not that we can prevent it. If you're of the style where you let enemies come to you, then the Guardian excels at this. This is why almost every Guardian you see runs 30 points in Valor for Altruistic Healing and is bunker based. However, outside of defending capture points in sPvP this doesn't work very well.

You CAN dedicate your entire build for being able to attack and stay in melee combat, however you have to sacrifice survival, support, and lack the burst that other melee damage dedicated Thieves/Warriors have. Even then, it's mostly burst of CC and damage, then trying to catch up, then burst of CC and damage, then trying to catch up.

If you go GS/Sword with Judge's Intervention (1 leap and 2 teleports), you'll be able to keep closing the gap, however you don't have Swiftness, Cripples, or Chills to stay there. If an enemy has Swiftness then you'll have a second to do your damage. If you get crippled or chilled, you'll have the same issue. You can try to remedy this by either using Sigil of Hydromancy or "Retreat". Sigil of Hydromancy is universal for all Professions. "Retreat" has a 60s cooldown and gives 20s of Swiftness, meaning it's not reliable.
Ah... so its not that you are getting killed by ranged attackers, its more about you not getting to kill mobile ones often enough?

Ironically, I think you have convinced me even more for now that it is an intended trade-off.

Guardians do not strike me as a profession themed to be dedicated, efficient killing machines.
There are builds to allow players to play it so, but they all have weaknesses.

If every profession or build gets its weaknesses patched and eliminated, what game do we have left?
I don't quite agree that it's the job of the game developers to grant such fixes*, it is up to the player more to find the best way to make his play style work.
Even then, not all professions cater to every play style there is.

*unless there is evidently hugely disproportionate distribution of strengths vs weaknesses or vice versa.

Edited by Trei, 25 December 2012 - 07:01 AM.


#29 TheKnox

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:45 AM

I am pretty much in agreement with the OP. I carry a staff around and rune for boon duration just so I can have perma–swiftness. I feel very powerful when I'm defending an area that I know the enemy has to come to, (sPvP capture nodes, defending supply camps) but extremely weak in the open field of WvW. I would happily trade one of my utility slots for 25% so I could have my weapon slot and runes back.

Only slightly related, but the biggest reason I think guardian burst is relatively weak is because our power, precision and crit damage trees are all different. They also don't really complement each other very well for maximizing damage (radiance is mostly signets and 1h, zeal is symbols, 2h and spirit weapons, and Valor basically adds 4% crit chance and makes you hard to kill).

Our lack of mobility makes being super glassy more difficult than the other low tier hp classes, who can just run away if things start looking ugly.

#30 Alaroxr

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostTrei, on 25 December 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Ah... so its not that you are getting killed by ranged attackers, its more about you not getting to kill mobile ones often enough?

Ironically, I think you have convinced me even more for now that it is an intended trade-off.

Guardians do not strike me as a profession themed to be dedicated, efficient killing machines.
There are builds to allow players to play it so, but they all have weaknesses.

If every profession or build gets its weaknesses patched and eliminated, what game do we have left?
I don't quite agree that it's the job of the game developers to grant such fixes*, it is up to the player more to find the best way to make his play style work.
Even then, not all professions cater to every play style there is.

*unless there is evidently hugely disproportionate distribution of strengths vs weaknesses or vice versa.

If that's a case, then there's a significant problem, because it means the only part of the Guardian that is intended to be effective is going 30 in Valor for either Altruistic Healing bunker, or Meditation bunker. It means we're designed to be fodder for ranged attackers if we do anything but dedicated tank. You can't make the weakness of the most melee-dependent Profession to be the inability to stay in melee range without the consent of your enemy.

Edited by Alaroxr, 25 December 2012 - 05:01 PM.





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