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Death of small guilds


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#1 chrono06

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:17 PM

So I was a GM in gw1 and an officer in wow. I've had many years experience in being a guild leader. My gw1 guild was a top 100 gvg guild for a while (not bad for pvp casuals), we owned hzh, had some speed clear records before, etc. in wow our guild was small but was semi hardcore/casual, we weren't crazy but could raid hard modes with the best of them.

I've been playing gw2 since beta and launch, haven't really found a guild that I liked, so figured I would start my own. Turns out it's almost impossible for a new guild to start up. Not sure if its bad design mechanics or if it was intentional thanks to wvw, but small guilds are dead or non existent. Personally I love small guilds. I want to make friends, get to know each other, have an elite team of core players you know and trust and can laugh and goof around with.

Here's the problems:

1) guild buffs: only the huge guilds can afford them and the upgrades. Especially these days because no one will join a new/small guild. If they do they don't rep. And why should they? It hurts them bc they could rep their big guild and get beneficial buffs.
2) Able to join multiple guilds: there's things I like about this and things I hate. I like that I can join a pvp guild, or a dungeon farming guild, and play with both. My problem is if they don't rep you then it's almost worthless. My new guild is currently about 30 members. I had 15 online earlier, but no one was rep'ing bc of having multiple guilds. 15 online should be decently active instead it's dead. I've been in guilds with 500 people who would only have about 20 rep'ing so it's a problem for everyone, not just small guilds.
3) People think small guilds = bad: well maybe how the guild system works currently but I wouldn't blame the smaller guilds for that. One of the biggest questions I get recruiting isn't if we have vent, or a website, or what's our goals, it's how many members do you have... I get no one wants a dead guild, we like to talk and do things, but I don't really think 500 people guilds are the answer. In huge guilds you are a nobody. A number, no one knows you, no one cares about you. If you want to do a dungeon it's almost pugging. In my guilds in the past we would have our hard core team/runs, and train newbies on other runs. Now forget it, people don't care that you're a guildie, If you're bad/new they won't invite you.
4) pve-wise it could be bc of zergs, or to easy dungeons: granted easy is a relative term. But I see almost every dungeon being pugg'ed 24/7, this is both a good and bad thing. But it's a terrible thing for smaller guilds that like to raid because frankly there's no point. If cof, ta, ac, etc are all so easy to pug why would you join a small guild to do it? This point kind of flows with point #3. In WoW some raids were hard (not all but at least some hard modes before nerfs, even cata heroic dungeons at first) Small guilds in wow were the good ones! It was the huge guilds that were full of noobs. Maybe if they made the dungeons harder people would form elite raiding guilds again with core players. Gw1 had it too like in Doa, fow, ampnd uw farming (before speed clears). Zergs may also be a reason small guilds are hurting. You can't advertise map clears, or ore farming, karma farms, etc, bc no one needs a guild to do a lot of those, or even a group. Just find a Zerg and stay with it. I like the no tag combat system overall, how it encourages cooperation, but I wonder if it to adds to this other problem.

-------

Lets try to keep this thread on topic and have useful discussion. This isn't a qq post, this is legitimate concerns that myself and many others have seen. Sure the trolls will have a field day with this but w/e. I know how to recruit, in gw1 if you had a new guild and you needed members you went to pre and got newbies. If you wanted loyalty you helped them, trained them and became their friend. If you wanted to be hardcore you recruited like minded farmers for speed clears or high end pvp. Here all of that is near impossible for the above reasons.

Suggestions:

1) buff influence gains or nerf the high requirements. It's fine for those who have it, but starting a new guild is pretty much impossible for this reason alone almost. Maybe if smaller guilds could get the same rewards easier people would be more willing to give them a try. WoW had guild ranks and privileges too, but they weren't a deal-breaker. Maybe take a page out of their book. Some guild rank or rep to encourage loyalty would help everyone, large and small guilds.
2) go back to a 1 guild system. I have mixed feelings on this one but I think the good outweighs the bad. Also a lot of these big guilds require that people rep them or they will kick you so there's really no point in multiple guilds anyways.
3) bring back alliances! Do you have a small dungeon farming guild? But there's only a few online ATM, no problem, ask your allies and away you go. It's would be great for big guilds too, especially wvw guilds. There are already many alliances in wvw servers, might as well make it official and in game.
4) make harder content. Maybe hard/heroic modes, but do something. Most explorable modes are now easily pugable. Make more content like arah, cof path 3, Coe, etc and maybe small raiding guilds will come back again.

Edited by chrono06, 16 December 2012 - 11:25 PM.


#2 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:32 PM

Small guilds should form alliances with other small guilds.  That's what my guild did.  When small guilds ally together, they have the benefit of keeping their independence and at the same time have others to play with and befriend.

#3 chrono06

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 16 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Small guilds should form alliances with other small guilds.  That's what my guild did.  When small guilds ally together, they have the benefit of keeping their independence and at the same time have others to play with and befriend.

Agreed. Hence one of my solutions was to bring back alliances in gw2. We can form our own, but it would be a lot easier and more practical if that feature was in-game and had some sort of chat.

#4 Sheepski

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:44 PM

I agree with the overall argument really, my guild died because of pretty much the same reasons.

However right now I'm in a small guild which is thriving, in it's way.

And that's because it has the right kind of atmosphere, very welcoming and friendly, very inclusive with the dungeons or content we do etc.

The main reason I joined was that I couldn't stand pug groups for dungeons and prefer to play with people I know/like on a regular basis. Where we're good enough players to do the content, will teach/train others if they're new, and won't care if I'm not running the current copy/pasted build. We can be on vent and have a laugh etc too.

So that part of your post I'd disagree with, but maybe for others pugging and guild groups are all the same means to an end.

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#5 Omedon

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

If you recruit people for the right reasons, logistical details are a non issue.

I am a co-leader of a small guild, and we are blissfully enjoying our experience, have weekly events, and are mature and realistic about our expectations while enjoying each others' company when we pass as well entertained ships in the night.

What dies in GW2 on a guild front is the fun of those that fret too much over guild logistics, as opposed to forming groups of like minded friends.  Working as intended.
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#6 Arquenya

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

View Postsevalaricgirl, on 16 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Small guilds should form alliances with other small guilds.  That's what my guild did.  When small guilds ally together, they have the benefit of keeping their independence and at the same time have others to play with and befriend.
Exactly. GW2 desperately needs alliances. Too many people find their guilds mostly empty, with 80% mostly offline or quit playing.
Many officers and leaders want to keep their status and unique snowflake idea and have no options whatsoever to be part of a bigger collective.

Alliances were a brilliant part of GW and I never understood why ANet has no intention of bringing them back.

#7 chrono06

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

View PostSheepski, on 16 December 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

I agree with the overall argument really, my guild died because of pretty much the same reasons.

However right now I'm in a small guild which is thriving, in it's way.

And that's because it has the right kind of atmosphere, very welcoming and friendly, very inclusive with the dungeons or content we do etc.

The main reason I joined was that I couldn't stand pug groups for dungeons and prefer to play with people I know/like on a regular basis. Where we're good enough players to do the content, will teach/train others if they're new, and won't care if I'm not running the current copy/pasted build. We can be on vent and have a laugh etc too.

So that part of your post I'd disagree with, but maybe for others pugging and guild groups are all the same means to an end.

Lucky, glad to hear there is still some hope. The things you listed are exactely how I feel, but can't really seem to find others out there like that. Even when I do the logical things like recruit in LA or even better the dungeon zones, or after running a few runs with some pugs. I think your last post about people viewing it as a means to an end might have hit the nail on the head.

I think part of the reason guilds are struggling is fotm... It split the player base. Didn't arenanet pretty much promise not to do this in their manifesto? Weren't dungeons supposed to be accessible to all? By requiring ranks no one has anyone else to play with anymore. Lv 20s don't want to play with lv 15's who don't want to play with lv 10s, and definitely don't want to carry a lv 2 to level their rank up just to play together.

#8 Sheepski

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

Yeah the fractals are even more of a personal gain style of content than the other dungeons, where a lot wouldn't run a dungeon they can't use the tokens from.

Even in our guild, there's only a few people who would run lower levels to get a person to their stage of progression, and it'd be down finding the odd pug to fill the group.

However we are a lot more open to doing content for other people than I fear a lot of guilds are.

I guess another consideration is that Gw2 in a lot of ways is a very personal journey, similar to Gw1. Everything you can do (almost) is either solo-able or pug-able (including events where random ppl join you for them). Whereas in other games you're required to be in a guild to do raid/high end organised content. While I much prefer Gw system, the downfall is the reliance on other people is lower, or at least the reliance on a guild/group of friends rather than randomers.

I decided that it was time to drop my guild and find somewhere I could play and be happy, maybe it's time for you to think of the same?

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#9 pumpkin pie

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

What's a GM in Guild Wars 1?

#10 lmaonade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

My guild has around 5-10 people on at any given time, we can keep a 100% uptime on all our PvE buffs (the passive all guild karma, gathering, exp boosts)

small guilds are not dead, you just don't see them around because they're small

there are also people like me who joined a guild with people they knew, and have no reason to join any other random guild with people they don't know

I've never encountered a person who thinks small guilds are bad, people might sometimes prefer big guilds, but small guilds definitely have their own charm.

All content can be done effectively with a coordinated 5 man party, there is no zerging required in any game mode in GW2

I think it all boils down to guild loyalty, something this game doesn't encourage, there are no visible differences from guild to guild for a player who plays solo, there needs to be something more personal about guilds...
HMM SOMETHING LIKE A GUILD HALL PERHAPS, <---- there lies the root of guild problems

Edited by lmaonade, 17 December 2012 - 02:21 AM.


#11 Vilaptca

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:41 AM

We have a Guild of roughly 19.  Except for the PvP buffs, we have everything unlocked, all the buffs are active most of the time.  We have thousands of influence just banked up.  

Now I've joined a couple larger guilds looking to meet more people for when my guild isn't on and I'm looking to run a dungeon or two, and each one I've joined has very little unlocked.  They have many members online and should be raking in the influence, but they have nothing unlocked.  

On the other hand my guild from GW1 is very dead and has little influence.

Just keep looking there are very active small guilds out there.

#12 omar316

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:30 AM

View Postlmaonade, on 17 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

Broken into parts

Quote

small guilds are not dead, you just don't see them around because they're small

They are certainly not thriving. Alot of PUGs, pick up guilds.

Quote

All content can be done effectively with a coordinated 5 man party, there is no zerging required in any game mode in GW2

Lol?

Quote

I think it all boils down to guild loyalty, something this game doesn't encourage, there are no visible differences from guild to guild for a player who plays solo, there needs to be something more personal about guilds...
HMM SOMETHING LIKE A GUILD HALL PERHAPS, <---- there lies the root of guild problems

I don't see how a guild hall promotes a need for a guild when the actual game content doesn't.

#13 lmaonade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:46 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

They are certainly not thriving. Alot of PUGs, pick up guilds.
Pick up groups are terrible, and pick up guilds aren't usually big anyway

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Lol?
?

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

I don't see how a guild hall promotes a need for a guild when the actual game content doesn't.
because unless Anet screws up their best feature, guild halls provide plenty of incentives for guild loyalty as opposed to game content

#14 Trei

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:55 AM

I do not see why game content has to drive the need for a guild.
Similar to how I also do not see why game content has to be designed to force people to make friends so that one would make friends.

Edited by Trei, 17 December 2012 - 05:05 AM.


#15 Keepy

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

Hum, im a officer of my guild and all i can say is recruiting is a nightmare. People in my server only want to be in big guilds with buffs 24/7. I cannot afford to have those buffs on all the time. My guild have around 10 members online static. Lol you guys should see when a certain big guild with 1k members+ shouts in WvW, every single person begs to joins them... And that guild dont realize that they have enough players long time ago to do whatever their goals are, with greed not having any consideration with smaller guilds they wont close recruitment.

The players i have in my guild are pure loyal most of them played other games with us, the ones that left or do not represent us are in big guilds that will kick them if they dont represent.

Some people just dont care about being a no one into a crowd if they can just leech stuff, well that people i dont need it around me.

Edited by Keepy, 17 December 2012 - 05:15 AM.


#16 Prince Zorkian

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:21 AM

I think the biggest mistake they made when it comes to guilds is the splitting up of the servers.  In GW1 it did not matter what server you were on, the Guild Hall made them all equal.  I could then join my guildies from Europe or even from Australia (I live in Colorado, US) if I was up late one night, on an event or an activity and at worse had to transfer back to my own country/district.  Now I have to decide between my guild (the same guild I've been a part of since Factions came out) and my time zone.  That is especially annoying since half my online friends were from America and the other half were from other countries (mostly Europe, but some from all over the world)

TO make matters worse, I can't even transfer to an American server to play with my timezone and then back to the server most of the guild-mates are on to do a dungeon without waiting a week.  It makes international guilds impossible

#17 omar316

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

View Postlmaonade, on 17 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Pick up groups are terrible, and pick up guilds aren't usually big anyway


?


because unless Anet screws up their best feature, guild halls provide plenty of incentives for guild loyalty as opposed to game content

Game encourages pick up groups. Remember the whole casual motto.

I don't see 5 man groups doing anything worthwhile in WvW.
Actually aside from dungeon instances, many which can be graveyard rushed, what other 5 man content is there which requires 5 man?

Not really. You can be all loyal to your guild but if there is no content to prove such loyalty is worth the time and effort to invest in then it doesn't really mean anything.

View PostTrei, on 17 December 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I do not see why game content has to drive the need for a guild.
Similar to how I also do not see why game content has to be designed to force people to make friends so that one would make friends.

Might as well say let GW2 be a single player RPG, and why does it even need multiplayer. Look up D3 and Sim City threads of how many people do not want to group up and play multiplayer/online. It's core design and content allows for single player grandmother basement dwelling behavior game play.

#18 Trei

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Might as well say let GW2 be a single player RPG, and why does it even need multiplayer. Look up D3 and Sim City threads of how many people do not want to group up and play multiplayer/online. It's core design and content allows for single player grandmother basement dwelling behavior game play.
Why must it be a Need?

Did you not pick up an MMO title because a part of you want to experience a game with other players around the world?
You willingly bought a Massively Multiplayer Online game just so you could play alone (?)... and needs the game itself to make you join other players by creating arbitrary mechanics and rewards to encourage it?

Does that sound logical to you?

Edited by Trei, 17 December 2012 - 05:59 AM.


#19 Kaiarra

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostTrei, on 17 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Why must it be a Need?

Did you not pick up an MMO title because a part of you want to experience a game with other players around the world?
You willingly bought a Massively Multiplayer Online game just so you could play alone (?)... and needs the game itself to make you join other players by creating arbitrary mechanics and rewards to encourage it?

Does that sound logical to you?

I think you'll find there are a lot of MMO players who don't do the dungeons because of the nightmare of PuG lottery or finding a solid PvE guild; it's not so much not wanting to play with other people, but the difficulty of finding those who you would want to group with.

I'd personally love it if they went with the GW1 route (yes I know it's not really considered an MMO). Give us heroes to do the dungeons if we can't or don't want to get other players. That way the antisocial of us are happy as they can solo the dungeons, and the sociable players still have the option to PuG or go with their friends - win win in my opinion.

Should also make the dungeon opening events considerably easier and always available, or just remove their requirement for entry entirely, with the way they've herded the majority into fractals.

Back on topic: I much preferred the WoW model of guild buffs - I'll admit the system is still flawed as no one wants to join a new level 1 guild with no buffs compared to a level 25 guild with max buffs, but it did offer smaller (say 10-man) guilds the chance to eventually, albeit slowly, reach the same point as the larger guilds. For those who didn't play WoW, it basically had 25 guild levels, which the members earned exp towards; once you reached each level it granted you a permanent buff. It had none of this silly 24 hour/3 day buffs that you constantly have to karma farm to renew and are likely unable to keep rolling with a small amount of players - it would just be 'level 10 guild = 5% more karma from events' or 'level 20 guild = 10% more karma from events', etc.

#20 lmaonade

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:55 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Game encourages pick up groups. Remember the whole casual motto.

I don't see 5 man groups doing anything worthwhile in WvW.
Actually aside from dungeon instances, many which can be graveyard rushed, what other 5 man content is there which requires 5 man?

Not really. You can be all loyal to your guild but if there is no content to prove such loyalty is worth the time and effort to invest in then it doesn't really mean anything.

Encouraging pick up groups doesn't automatically make them good, most of the PuGs you can find for dungeons are TERRIBLE, throwing 5 solo players into a 5 man team dungeon instance is a good way to rack up broken armors.

5 men can do plenty in WvW if coordinated, towers can be taken easily with 5 men, zergs can be busted with 5 men (if you're into that sort of thing), if you get caught by a zerg at a tower it'll be hard no matter how many people you have, sure tougher objectives like keeps and SM are not possible with 5 people, but towers and camps make up the majority of objectives.

Well by guild hall I meant the whole shebang, where it not only could be customized (location/theme, npcs, etc), but also served as a hub for scrimmages, GvG, and an intermediate waypoint into competitive missions (JQ, FA), I understand that the game is very different from GW1, but I'm sure that Anet could come up with good ideas for adaption, and a lot more personalization in the hall itself to garner interest and motivation

Edited by lmaonade, 17 December 2012 - 07:57 AM.


#21 chrono06

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:14 AM

View Postlmaonade, on 17 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:


I think it all boils down to guild loyalty, something this game doesn't encourage, there are no visible differences from guild to guild for a player who plays solo, there needs to be something more personal about guilds...
HMM SOMETHING LIKE A GUILD HALL PERHAPS, <---- there lies the root of guild problems

Hmm, how did I forget that one! Would love to see gvg and guild halls back in gw2.
*** adding this suggestion to the op

Quote

Back on topic: I much preferred the WoW model of guild buffs - I'll admit the system is still flawed as no one wants to join a new level 1 guild with no buffs compared to a level 25 guild with max buffs, but it did offer smaller (say 10-man) guilds the chance to eventually, albeit slowly, reach the same point as the larger guilds. For those who didn't play WoW, it basically had 25 guild levels, which the members earned exp towards; once you reached each level it granted you a permanent buff. It had none of this silly 24 hour/3 day buffs that you constantly have to karma farm to renew and are likely unable to keep rolling with a small amount of players - it would just be 'level 10 guild = 5% more karma from events' or 'level 20 guild = 10% more karma from events', etc.

This. Overall I think gw2 does many things better than wow but I definitely liked wow's guild reward system much better. Smaller guilds would get there eventually, the guild rep/rank encouraged loyalty, as did some of the rewards like the mini pets and mounts.

Quote

Encouraging pick up groups doesn't automatically make them good, most of the PuGs you can find for dungeons are TERRIBLE, throwing 5 solo players into a 5 man team dungeon instance is a good way to rack up broken armors.

Going to have to disagree with you there. Maybe when dungeons first came out but now it seems most people are getting used to them and know what they are doing. For example you see groups advertising cof paths 1 and 2 or ac all 3 paths, or even ta all paths. People are clearing them much faster than before. Maybe you just got unlucky with a bad pug or 2.

Edited by chrono06, 17 December 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#22 omar316

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:56 AM

View PostTrei, on 17 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Why must it be a Need?

Did you not pick up an MMO title because a part of you want to experience a game with other players around the world?
You willingly bought a Massively Multiplayer Online game just so you could play alone (?)... and needs the game itself to make you join other players by creating arbitrary mechanics and rewards to encourage it?

Does that sound logical to you?

I also want a mount in a MMO but GW2 denies it.

You NEED multiplayer content so you can do some multiplayer activities. Does THAT make sense?
I bought GoW3 for its single player content, but it offers multiplayer content as well. Does that sound logical?

Now let me give you another great example. Tales of (X) is a single player RPG with a choice of multiplayer battles. Multiplayer battles are completely optional, in fact it does not change your experience at all.

If GW2 was intended to be made the same way, like you say the multiplayer element is there but is completely optional(to the extent that I need to have to make an effort to find it), then wtf is it an MMO? If there is no content to encourage group/party dynamics/rewards then might as well market it as such, single player RPG with some multiplayer elements. Something fantastic like DQ9 for the DS, with its hot join group mechanics. If you haven't played it already you're missing out on a great RPG btw.

I am trying to say, the game does not encourage a lot of pure group activities. It performs like a static single player RPG, designed to be casual friendly, which is fine, but kind of alienates the group mentality. Everything can be pugged. Which hardly fosters a great objective driven guild. That goes for WvW as well. It's getting stale. For example, in Warhammer, PUGs, both randoms and pick up unknown guilds were alienated, due to skill/gear/builds/class types. Yes it was quite bad, but it fostered great small guilds with awesome players.

View Postlmaonade, on 17 December 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Encouraging pick up groups doesn't automatically make them good, most of the PuGs you can find for dungeons are TERRIBLE, throwing 5 solo players into a 5 man team dungeon instance is a good way to rack up broken armors.

5 men can do plenty in WvW if coordinated, towers can be taken easily with 5 men, zergs can be busted with 5 men (if you're into that sort of thing), if you get caught by a zerg at a tower it'll be hard no matter how many people you have, sure tougher objectives like keeps and SM are not possible with 5 people, but towers and camps make up the majority of objectives.

Well by guild hall I meant the whole shebang, where it not only could be customized (location/theme, npcs, etc), but also served as a hub for scrimmages, GvG, and an intermediate waypoint into competitive missions (JQ, FA), I understand that the game is very different from GW1, but I'm sure that Anet could come up with good ideas for adaption, and a lot more personalization in the hall itself to garner interest and motivation

Wrong. In this game there is little to no requirement to have any group set up. As long as anyone knows the fight, any pug can dodge red circles and press 1.

5 men can't do jack in WvW. Period. The game does NOT reward open world PvP. It rewards objectives. You already explained the rest. If you still want to argue, WvW is rewarding by itself, then it's fine with you but not me, and I know many people who agree with me.

Guild halls stuff and your whole shebang is not coming in any near future. Again, I'd like to point this out to Trei, having a guild hall does not mean anything if there is no grouped activity for it. Atm any fella with 20s can make a guild and make a guild hall if it was just that.

#23 B3aT

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

Regarding the upgrades/buffs - big or small, over one point (after you reach all lvl upgrades 4-5, is posible with 15members online in 1month+ or so) the only limitation is the number of current upgrades (2-3 simultaneous), so no matter you join big or small the buffs will be the same. The buffs duration is smaller the the upgrade construction anyway.

The main issue is that the system force members to not-represent its main guild for temporarily specific tasks (dungeons,fractals wvw etc)
partially solved with alliances. This problem will be mainly solved by a LFG ingame system.

#24 chrono06

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostB3aT, on 17 December 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Regarding the upgrades/buffs - big or small, over one point (after you reach all lvl upgrades 4-5, is posible with 15members online in 1month+ or so) the only limitation is the number of current upgrades (2-3 simultaneous), so no matter you join big or small the buffs will be the same. The buffs duration is smaller the the upgrade construction anyway.

The main issue is that the system force members to not-represent its main guild for temporarily specific tasks (dungeons,fractals wvw etc)
partially solved with alliances. This problem will be mainly solved by a LFG ingame system.

This maybe true once you reach that level, but trying to get it just starting out is near impossible. The first 1k isn't to terrible, rep can be bought with gold or personal story items, but the 5k ones appear quite out of reach. Trying to find 15 active members is very frustrating, why would they be active for you to get buffs for short durations, when they can be active for a larger guild and get better buffs. You add in the fact that everything is very casual friendly and can be soloed or pugged (I see even lv20+ fotm being pugged all the time in LA) there is little or even no need for a small guild.

#25 Lordkrall

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:27 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

5 men can't do jack in WvW. Period. The game does NOT reward open world PvP. It rewards objectives. You already explained the rest. If you still want to argue, WvW is rewarding by itself, then it's fine with you but not me, and I know many people who agree with me.

You have clearly never played WvW with a good group.

5 people can easily do quite much damage
Either by taking supply camps.
Destroy caravans.
Take towers.
Destroy zergs.

The first two can quite easily turn the tide of a battle. Especially when it comes to SM.

#26 XPhiler

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Game encourages pick up groups. Remember the whole casual motto.

I don't see 5 man groups doing anything worthwhile in WvW.
Actually aside from dungeon instances, many which can be graveyard rushed, what other 5 man content is there which requires 5 man?

Not really. You can be all loyal to your guild but if there is no content to prove such loyalty is worth the time and effort to invest in then it doesn't really mean anything.

Might as well say let GW2 be a single player RPG, and why does it even need multiplayer. Look up D3 and Sim City threads of how many people do not want to group up and play multiplayer/online. It's core design and content allows for single player grandmother basement dwelling behavior game play.

This lists the main problems people outline with the game I think quite well.

Why does the game have to force you for your to do something? Sure you could graveyard rush dungeons but why would you ever want to? Ohh I dont need to play my build correctly, I will jsut mash buttons randomly die and rush back no problem. Then I will just complain the reward isnt worth it cause I paid more for repairs. What kind of thinking is this? Sure the game is generous doesnt force you to play at your best because you could do the most terrible job in a dungeon and still finish it. Yet if you play right you'll finish in a fraction of the time and make more profit as you'll incure less repaire expense isnt that motivation enough?

No content except for group events *requires* 5 man group but all of it benefits players from doing it in 5 man group. Just yesterday I went Present farming. I would have got bored and quite after 30 mins but I noticed the same players running with me from present to present so I requested to join the party (nice feature) and they accepted. We spent 3 hours going around a group of 4 and had a blast farming talking, passing jokes etc.. Also being 4 instead of 1 made taking down mobs a lot faster and provided us overall with more loot in less time. Teaming up with guildmates also rewards the guild with influence. So yeah you're right no content forces you to run in groups, thats good cause maybe you dont want to but all content rewards you for running in a group.

Cause showing up in time for a raid is showing your guild loyalty? I would rather have that shown in something more tangable like when a new member joins and wants to get certain badges or level up in FoTM levels  s/he can find guild members willing to help out even though they dont really need to do it themselves.

View PostLordkrall, on 17 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

You have clearly never played WvW with a good group.

5 people can easily do quite much damage
Either by taking supply camps.
Destroy caravans.
Take towers.
Destroy zergs.

The first two can quite easily turn the tide of a battle. Especially when it comes to SM.

I can confirm this, the most time I had fun in WvW it was with small groups simply because there is real co-ordination there. Though to be fair even in the big groups we generally split up in small groups to acomplish targets. Starving enemy of supply, having a supply line for yourself are key to long term WvW success. Obviously you dont need zergs for that

#27 Lordkrall

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:37 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 December 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:


I can confirm this, the most time I had fun in WvW it was with small groups simply because there is real co-ordination there. Though to be fair even in the big groups we generally split up in small groups to acomplish targets. Starving enemy of supply, having a supply line for yourself are key to long term WvW success. Obviously you dont need zergs for that

Indeed, spent several hours a few weeks ago with 4 others running back and forth taking supply camps and killing caravans in EB, and while we did that the rest of our server prepared to siege and take SM which was made quite easy simply because SM did not receive any supplies.

Sure most people probably think that being part of the actual battle for SM is the most important thing for winning it, but removing their supplies is more or less half the battle.

#28 RecentlyTaken

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

Its harder for new guilds to start up because, the people actively looking for a new guild is much smaller.

For example, why should the average player who's say, been in their guild already for the last 2-3 months suddenly switch to yours? If you don't have a *very* specific niche (ie: spvp only, dungeon only, whatever) and are just a general PvE small guild, you're only gonna recruit from probably the guild-less pool (and if they are still guild-less, they might be someone who just doesn't want a guild at all). Guild upgrades aren't really the main reason people will/won't join you. If they are already in a big guild and have played with those same people for awhile they have no incentive to move.

I think the influx of new players into this game has dwindled way to the point where starting a new guild will be difficult unless you have a good sized starting base to work with. Alot of smaller guilds are dying because of people leaving the game in general (it affects all guilds, but is most noticable on smaller guilds). My own guild (large one) lost a good amount of people to other games since fractals came out. But at the same time, we folded in a few smaller guilds that broke up basically and were looking for a new home. Thats just the way it works; once a guild gets *too*small, people will look elsewhere, because when it comes down to it, most people play MMO's for the social experience, and that's easier to accomplish in a larger guild.

#29 omar316

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 17 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

You have clearly never played WvW with a good group.

5 people can easily do quite much damage
Either by taking supply camps.
Destroy caravans.
Take towers.
Destroy zergs.

The first two can quite easily turn the tide of a battle. Especially when it comes to SM.

Clearly shows you never actually PvPed before. Again I repeat for clarity. The game does not reward open world PvP. It rewards objectives. Sure you accomplished something to gain the end goal, taking of keep. Not 1 of your example however actually had any PvP.

Demolish zergs with a 5 man? Please give me a video example.
Lol.

#30 Lordkrall

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

View Postomar316, on 17 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Clearly shows you never actually PvPed before. Again I repeat for clarity. The game does not reward open world PvP. It rewards objectives. Sure you accomplished something to gain the end goal, taking of keep. Not 1 of your example however actually had any PvP.

Demolish zergs with a 5 man? Please give me a video example.
Lol.

Seeing as not everyone plays for material rewards I really don't see your point.
I play for fun, not for some numbers on a computer screen.

Good luck trying to do those objectives without stopping the enemies supplies :)

How does destroying a zerg not have any PvP?


It is quite easy. Zergs are quite often rather badly organized, with a few well-placed attacks you can create enough chaos to pick them off one by one untill they fall back.




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