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Death of small guilds


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#61 Senatic

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

View Postdrkn, on 18 December 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Tbh there're no downsides in big guilds, while small guilds have their issues presented in OP.
The only format that small, closely-knit together groups shine is tPvP.

And i don't really see it as a bad thing. Even if you have 6 friends who enjoy playing together, there's nothing wrong in joining something bigger and established with all those 6 people. Not like the leader/officers can force you to group up with other guildies if you prefer to stick to your 'original' group. Then again, even in a big guild with 50+ active (and representing) people, sooner or later you will find several more or less like-minded players with whom you'll enjoy grouping the most, and will tend to group with them. It does lead to fracturing a bit, but it's within the human social nature, and there's nothing wrong about it, really, as long as you're open to play with other guildies as well.

Now about w3... random zergs are usually bad and easy to beat down with smaller yet organised force. 30 random, upscaled people will die to even a bit coordinated group of 15. But now imagine a more or less coordinated guild group of 30...


@Senatic:
The real question is - how many buffs do you maintain 24/7? Do you run +karma, +xp, +magic find and +gathering all the time? We do, as a bigger and more active guild, with still 30k surplus influence and rising, but i remember times when i had to juggle the 'current upgrades' not to end up with 3k influence.

Yep, karma, magic find and gathering boosts are active all the time, and we restock/use banners on a daily basis.

#62 beadnbutter32

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:21 PM

I have joined lots of small guilds. Have also joined plenty of supposedly large guilds, but practically every guild listed as having 400 plus members turns out to have never culled their membership lists, and never field more than 10 players online at any time.

99% of the small guilds I have joined turn out to be one persons friend list with a chat channel or vent channel.  If want to be a follower, your welcome, but forget about asking for help or asking anyone to join a team for anything other than what the leaders current objective is.

I don't respond to blind guild invites.  If you can't take the time to strike up a conversation in LA or say more than two words in a PUG, I highly doubt your guild will be any improvement.

Even in guilds that can field 20+ people online, 90% of the time I have to run dungeons with PUGs.  GW2 is all about PUGs for dungeons and the zerg for open world.  The buffs are simply not worth the effort /time required in World vs Doors or the huge amount of time you have to run around W vs Doors to find a hot spot where you have an ounce of a chance of making a difference.  W v Doors has become just like the sPVP scene with pros dominating while most of the population avoids WvW just like it does sPVP.  Its been quite a while since I have seen a que to get into WvW.

I am pretty negative about guilds because they have become voice  channel centric, which is fine if you have a voice. And no, one cannot just listen in a guild vent.  People get paranoid if they see your name in the vent room but never hear you talk.    Even in big guilds, it is rare to seen more than a handful of text chat posts in an evening.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 18 December 2012 - 01:45 PM.


#63 omar316

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Good cause I am sure we dont want to waste time discussing issues with people who arent really interested in discussing issues. Face it all you want is arguements that make the game look bad, you dont care about truth or facts. There is a saying that applies perfectly to what you just did. "When you cant attack the arguement attack the person"

True, basically why I had to be the greater man to realise this first.

#64 drkn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

Quote

I am pretty negative about guilds because they have become voice  channel centric, which is fine if you have a voice. And no, one cannot just listen in a guild vent.  People get paranoid if they see your name in the vent room but never hear you talk. Even in big guilds, it is rare to seen more than a handful of text chat posts in an evening.

[...]

I am pretty negative about guilds because they have become voice  channel centric, which is fine if you have a voice. And no, one cannot just listen in a guild vent.  People get paranoid if they see your name in the vent room but never hear you talk. Even in big guilds, it is rare to seen more than a handful of text chat posts in an evening.
I lead a 'big' guild. 200+ members, as yes, i haven't culled the inactive players out, as given the no-sub model of GW2, some people play on and off, or come back only for the content updates and then hit torpor for a month again.
We still field ~50 online (and representing) members in the evenings, ~10 around noon. And we're still growing, getting more active members on a daily basis.
We try hard not to become just a bunch of strangers who simply share the same guild tag but then have to run stuff with pugs. We organise planned guild trips to specific dungeons or W3. Sure, even with 50 people online it's not sure that you'll find 4 more people to do the exact thing you want at the moment, but it's pretty rare; we've even held a Fractals Boosting Weekend when people at lv10+ helped out those below lv5 to advance.
On top of that, we don't really use voice comms, so we have a really living and always busy /guild chat. If a specific team feels like using voip when doing something, it's there to use, but it's usually empty as there's no reason to use it outside of tPvP or 'social' aspects (which are fully covered by the chat).

I'm pretty sure there are more guilds like mine. Just keep looking.

Edited by drkn, 19 December 2012 - 01:14 AM.


#65 lmaonade

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:04 AM

View Postomar316, on 18 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Actually you know what. I don't feel like wasting time on fanboys.

lol really, just because I think there can be a solution to GW2's current guild problems makes me a fanboy? how? I recognize there are severe disconnect problems between social interaction and gameplay, but while you're just pointing out what's wrong, I'm proposing a solution, may not be the best solution in the world, but at least it is one.

You said there isn't any gameplay elements to encourage being in a guild at all, which is correct, because pick up groups are easy to find and abundant, but I'm saying it can be fixed. The rest was just an argument of how effective PuGs are (which in my opinion are not effective at all), and an argument of how my solution sucks. I'd like to hear what you think can fix this problem, specifically I mean.

#66 omar316

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

View Postlmaonade, on 19 December 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

lol really, just because I think there can be a solution to GW2's current guild problems makes me a fanboy? how? I recognize there are severe disconnect problems between social interaction and gameplay, but while you're just pointing out what's wrong, I'm proposing a solution, may not be the best solution in the world, but at least it is one.

You said there isn't any gameplay elements to encourage being in a guild at all, which is correct, because pick up groups are easy to find and abundant, but I'm saying it can be fixed. The rest was just an argument of how effective PuGs are (which in my opinion are not effective at all), and an argument of how my solution sucks. I'd like to hear what you think can fix this problem, specifically I mean.

Wow thanks.

I mentioned before in an earlier post. You, have also correctly understood that I was implying alot of problems with the current state of the actual need/desire for a small goal oriented guild.

The guild hall is a fantastic idea. It's something to work on, like housing, on a larger scale but I hope we can both agree that the current GW2 core game design does not promote this feature.

Like I pointed out to Trei in another post, there needs to be a need for multiplayer content so that multiplayer content can be realised.
Like wise there needs to be specific tasks/goals/content which should drive a market/need for small scale focused guilds to exist.
For example, I need to say I want to join [XXX] because they are awesome. They can do this and have this on farm.

[XXX] needs to come out in to the forums to state they have this content locked down to the minutes.
Such content should also need to be not only be unique, but also attainable through sheer effort + time spent. Not RNG.

Eg: sPvP has got many different guild tags.

Such content should not be exclusive to any of the 3 modes but inclusive of all their game, PvE first and foremost, WvW secondly, and sPvP lastly.

I do not want to rant on and go into details, which would basically veer off topic.

TL:DR - The core design of GW2 needs to change.
Reality - The game was not made that way. Why didn't the Devs think that this would not be a great feature? I got no clue.


Personal rant:
I am still subbed to Warhammer and TOR.
Great games. I do play them regularly, but I find the population dismal. GW2 is hitting the same ro* to me. NSP had Jormag up for almost 1 hour yesterday @ 1700 +0800GMT. People were looking for more for a World Event. 4 months down and game state is pathetic.

#67 Dasryn

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:52 AM

i actually prefer a smaller guild, like < 30 members.

i believe guilds should be personable and tight knit.  you'll be gaming with these folks very freqeuntly and in the past i try very hard to get very personal with guild mates as i end up talking to them as much as people at my job.

i do feel like smaller guilds must sacrifice some features to a certain degree in GW2, but its a small price to pay for the level of personality and comfort that you can expect from smaller guilds.

plus the OP mentioned how he feels like a number in large guilds, this is true.  youve got the cliquey tight knit officers and GM, and then youve got hte veteran members, and then youve got new recruits that may never speak with someone higher than a veteran member. . ..   thats lame.  i have to feel included.

#68 lmaonade

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:01 AM

View Postomar316, on 19 December 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Wow thanks.

I mentioned before in an earlier post. You, have also correctly understood that I was implying alot of problems with the current state of the actual need/desire for a small goal oriented guild.

The guild hall is a fantastic idea. It's something to work on, like housing, on a larger scale but I hope we can both agree that the current GW2 core game design does not promote this feature.

Like I pointed out to Trei in another post, there needs to be a need for multiplayer content so that multiplayer content can be realised.
Like wise there needs to be specific tasks/goals/content which should drive a market/need for small scale focused guilds to exist.
For example, I need to say I want to join [XXX] because they are awesome. They can do this and have this on farm.

[XXX] needs to come out in to the forums to state they have this content locked down to the minutes.
Such content should also need to be not only be unique, but also attainable through sheer effort + time spent. Not RNG.

Eg: sPvP has got many different guild tags.

Such content should not be exclusive to any of the 3 modes but inclusive of all their game, PvE first and foremost, WvW secondly, and sPvP lastly.

I do not want to rant on and go into details, which would basically veer off topic.

TL:DR - The core design of GW2 needs to change.
Reality - The game was not made that way. Why didn't the Devs think that this would not be a great feature? I got no clue.


Personal rant:
I am still subbed to Warhammer and TOR.
Great games. I do play them regularly, but I find the population dismal. GW2 is hitting the same ro* to me. NSP had Jormag up for almost 1 hour yesterday @ 1700 +0800GMT. People were looking for more for a World Event. 4 months down and game state is pathetic.

Yes, guild oriented content is definitely needed in a game whose name implies it. There is absolutely nothing in the game you can't do without a guild, which would be fine and all if not for the fact that at the same time there is nothing a guild can provide that would make any of the content more rewarding/easier/etc (well, I still think PuGs are terrible, just a personal prejudice of mine), which is what you're basically saying. The guild system right now is just a hollow shell with no purpose, in GW1 it had some importance, now it's just like the "linkshell" system from FF11, just a social hub with no real incentives besides the guild buffs, and the fact that anyone can use guild banners just gives people more reason not to be in one.

There were some features in GW1 that match what you say about the specific tasks, certain challenge missions and GvG with a ladder system all catered to guilds more, in some of the challenge missions if your guild/team was the number 1 on the ladder, your group would be written onto the map as a subtext to the map name, which provided huge reputation boosts for your guild as being able to do so and so better and faster. And obviously GvG couldn't be done without a guild. Of course these things can't be straight up imported to GW2, but those were some great features.

But yes, I definitely agree that there should be content that could provide incentives to join a guild with niche goals, right now most of the guilds are PvX since a guild is just a glorified forum for pick up groups. I really can't believe they didn't implement a sort of GvG system though, those should be kinda given, Anet really went backwards on the guild system from GW1

#69 MartinFirestorm

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostKaiarra, on 17 December 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'd personally love it if they went with the GW1 route (yes I know it's not really considered an MMO). Give us heroes to do the dungeons if we can't or don't want to get other players. That way the antisocial of us are happy as they can solo the dungeons, and the sociable players still have the option to PuG or go with their friends - win win in my opinion.

And you inevitably kill PUGing in the process. Heroes reduce the population willing to PUG to the point where it takes too long to get one together, and you just quit. I advocated them in GW and I wanted to be able to use 7, but that was after PUGing had already died. GW2 is in its youth and nowhere near that point. If anet handles expansions properly it may never get to that point. I like how much you can play without others in GW2, but I want the option to PUG those places you can't. PUGs overall are not bad imo. Some are, many aren't. If you just can't stand PUGs your optioin is guilds. If you also have a problem with guilds in general or your guild, maybe an MMO style game is not your best bet. At least GW2 gives even those type of players access to most of its content.

#70 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:56 AM

Well no. As much when Eotn was released you was able to solo with heroes even uw and fow with some little effort, still a pug recruit was perfectly alive till last day , to play particular content with particular performance. So no, heroes would not kill the game quitting. Instead would give us a chance to enjoy the world in the fullest, complete story mode in peace (try it now ;) with a pug ), do DEs, even temples with them, revamp the content. Still leaving some tasks not so much proficient with heroes clearly.

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 18 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I have joined lots of small guilds. Have also joined plenty of supposedly large guilds, but practically every guild listed as having 400 plus members turns out to have never culled their membership lists, and never field more than 10 players online at any time.

99% of the small guilds I have joined turn out to be one persons friend list with a chat channel or vent channel.  If want to be a follower, your welcome, but forget about asking for help or asking anyone to join a team for anything other than what the leaders current objective is.

I don't respond to blind guild invites.  If you can't take the time to strike up a conversation in LA or say more than two words in a PUG, I highly doubt your guild will be any improvement.

Even in guilds that can field 20+ people online, 90% of the time I have to run dungeons with PUGs.  GW2 is all about PUGs for dungeons and the zerg for open world.  The buffs are simply not worth the effort /time required in World vs Doors or the huge amount of time you have to run around W vs Doors to find a hot spot where you have an ounce of a chance of making a difference.  W v Doors has become just like the sPVP scene with pros dominating while most of the population avoids WvW just like it does sPVP.  Its been quite a while since I have seen a que to get into WvW.

I am pretty negative about guilds because they have become voice  channel centric, which is fine if you have a voice. And no, one cannot just listen in a guild vent.  People get paranoid if they see your name in the vent room but never hear you talk. Even in big guilds, it is rare to seen more than a handful of text chat posts in an evening.
Qutoe 100% , perfect rapresentation of what guilds and be guildy are, today.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 01:57 AM.





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