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#31 johnnyutah21

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Thieves burst is fine now, but being able to leave a fight whenever you want by perm stealth is OP.  There needs to be a limit on how many times you can stealth in a fight.

#32 NuclearDonut

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 18 December 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Elementalist were all a rage in the first week of WvW, Then Guardians, then Mesmers....the Thief is trending now. This is what is called the metagame. Just relax, change will happen. I'm betting The Necromancer is up next because the increased speed buff.
What's probably gonna happen is Thief will eventually get nerfed into the ground and all the FOTM players will jump to the Kill Shot Warrior. I really hope that doesn't happen, I enjoy my Kill Shot Warrior. :(

#33 chuckles79

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

Daggerstorm, perma-stealth, and 25k crits are all utter OP BS.  Which is why I leveled a thief to lvl 80.  This is why people will continue to do so, until they address this.

I'm not saying thieves are the be all end all of WvW combat, in many situations I prefer my warrior.  However, the thief gets buffed with each skill update and becomes deadlier each time they tweak traits and skills.  Until that stops, everyone will have a backup thief for WvW exclusive use (I hate it in PvE)

#34 The Shadow

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

View Postchuckles79, on 18 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Daggerstorm, perma-stealth, and 25k crits are all utter OP BS.  Which is why I leveled a thief to lvl 80.  This is why people will continue to do so, until they address this.

So... essentially, what you're saying is... People continuously roll Thieves.. because they don't know how to count crits?

Not gunna lie, that actually makes a hell of a lot of sense.

#35 Beastgate

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

Lol @ 25k crit.

#36 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostShabbyDude, on 18 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Not really.  There have been many many times a theif will start hitting me with his pistols and I won't see him till after his little Thief NPCs are up.  It takes me 1s for me to see him after that, other people take up to 3s.

Huh? You can't see him but know he's got pistols? Okay... and not all thieves choose the thief NPCs, so is this ONE thief you didn't see?

Sounds more like stealth. They have stealth. Play a thief. Then you'll get it.

Culling is different for each player.

This is the facts. If a player is culled from your screen, YOU are culled from theirs. F A C T. Look it up. Oh and pistol thieves don't do 14k hits. If a thief is using pistols, laugh.

#37 ShabbyDude

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 18 December 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Huh? You can't see him but know he's got pistols? Okay... and not all thieves choose the thief NPCs, so is this ONE thief you didn't see?

Sounds more like stealth. They have stealth. Play a thief. Then you'll get it.

Culling is different for each player.

This is the facts. If a player is culled from your screen, YOU are culled from theirs. F A C T. Look it up. Oh and pistol thieves don't do 14k hits. If a thief is using pistols, laugh.

When a thief breaks from Stealth, it takes time before he loads onto the screen.  Sounds like culling to me.  His pet Thief NPCs load BEFORE he does.  Understand?

#38 Calumet

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:14 PM

From a Thief, I personally would welcome more thieves but on a condition.

I'd like more thieves who are there not to just gank random strangers but who assassinate Dolyaks, act as scouts and spies, Go in and try to Snipe enemy siege like Trebuchet targeting a Keep in open ground and Medics to people who are down. Essentially I would welcome more Thieves who try to do more to influence a battle than just mug, backstab, run away (Though that is acceptable in a fight, just don't make fighting the only thing you do).

If the new Thief is just going to one around trying to be Rambo then I'd rather they roll a different class to be honest.

#39 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostShabbyDude, on 18 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

When a thief breaks from Stealth, it takes time before he loads onto the screen.  Sounds like culling to me.  His pet Thief NPCs load BEFORE he does.  Understand?

When you summon a pet thief from stealth, you stay stealthed, but they show up. I know. I've played a thief 200 hours or more. I'm telling you, play a thief to 80 and you'll understand what happens. Culling does not relate to stealth. It's related to distance from your character. That stealthed thief, if closer to you than most other folks, will be set to render upon the expiration of stealth. He does not get culled again if he stealth. In fact, if you saw his thief pets, he was NOT culled. Characters pets who are culled are also culled.

Culling is when the client choose who to render by how close they are to you to speed up rendering and keep frame rate up. Once he can see you, you can see him. Here's what happened. He popped stealth, got close enough for you to render for him while still stealth, summoned his pets while still stealthed (which is stupid on his part) and then his stealth wore off.

And as an aside, ANY class should destroy a dual pistols thief summoning pets. The fact that he's using stealth proves he's a weak player. That should be a condition build, and he should totally skip stealth and bleed folks in a crowd from range. If this is the 'over powered' thief everyone is worried about, then they're pretty terrible at PvP.

Now, a DD perma-stealth thief is different, and will waste anyone who doesn't know how to counter. His power comes from position, stealth, steal and speed (haste and or quickness). Unless this thief is all alone fighting you one on one while you try to protect a yak, you should be good. And he'd still better be quick or he's just another badge.

Thief is a class that's great for ganking stragglers, noobs and all around bad builds and bad play. Stay in the center of a crowd and you'll never have to worry. Guard spots with NPCs and you never have to worry. Have knockback, slows and holds and never worry.

If you're a warrior kitted for PvE DPS, worry.

#40 fatrodmc

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:57 AM

Thieves often beat me in 1v1, which pisses me off.

But they are intended to be the roaming, superior 1v1 class. So I kind of have to accept that.

As a ranger I'd like to see their damage toned down just a tad...

#41 BnJ

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:30 AM

View Postchuckles79, on 18 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

25k crits are all utter OP BS

You know, when you make up BS like this, you lose so much credit.  I know I will be dismissing anything you say in the future.

#42 chuckles79

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

View PostShroomhead Fred, on 19 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

You know, when you make up BS like this, you lose so much credit.  I know I will be dismissing anything you say in the future.
I'll shed a tear every time you do so

#43 BnJ

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:55 AM

View Postchuckles79, on 19 December 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

I'll shed a tear every time you do so

I'd prefer if you'd stop crying thanks

#44 Elr3d

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:33 AM

View Postchuckles79, on 18 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Daggerstorm, perma-stealth, and 25k crits are all utter OP BS.  Which is why I leveled a thief to lvl 80.  This is why people will continue to do so, until they address this.

25k burst are only achievable against people that spec for heavy damage with no survivability and run across the map all solo. That's like asking for it.

And if you're able to burst like that, that means you are also running all solo with no defense at all and are as much as vulnerable as your target. You also heavily nerf your ability to help in zerg because you can't stay alive long enough to land your crit inside an enemy zerg. Even if you do, you get downed afterward without nearby allies and the person you just killed gets revived.

I don't care about glass cannon Thieves honestly. If I run solo, that means I run a build that can kill them given equal skills, and if I don't run such a build, then I stick with either 2-3 buddies or a zerg.

#45 Tarkus

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:40 AM

As a guy who runs a thief main (complete glass cannon roamer/scout), I would say that the class is powerful but not OP in the slightest. Most of the time as a roamer the guys that you kill are other thieves, and damn a lot of them are horrible (i.e. using dual pistols and using heartseeker when you are at 100% hp). Personally I have no issues with lot of thieves on the field considering that they are the best class for scouting in the game, and therefore are an essential asset to any commander. You may be witnessing the side effect of various guilds stepping up their game.

Oh yeah on a side-note, the only way that you could manage a 25k crit on a thief is if you were full zerk, built for crit in your traits, fed and using haste pistol whip. If someone uses this they will be blowing two utility cooldowns, anelite and all of their initiative. This guy will have 10k Hp and will be suseptable to condition damage.

The counter is simple; stunbreak, load with conditions and laugh while they run away and the fall over. If you let the full combo hit you...... well you've got other problems.

Edited by Tarkus, 20 December 2012 - 11:41 AM.


#46 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostTarkus, on 20 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

As a guy who runs a thief main (complete glass cannon roamer/scout), I would say that the class is powerful but not OP in the slightest. Most of the time as a roamer the guys that you kill are other thieves, and damn a lot of them are horrible (i.e. using dual pistols and using heartseeker when you are at 100% hp). Personally I have no issues with lot of thieves on the field considering that they are the best class for scouting in the game, and therefore are an essential asset to any commander. You may be witnessing the side effect of various guilds stepping up their game.

Oh yeah on a side-note, the only way that you could manage a 25k crit on a thief is if you were full zerk, built for crit in your traits, fed and using haste pistol whip. If someone uses this they will be blowing two utility cooldowns, anelite and all of their initiative. This guy will have 10k Hp and will be suseptable to condition damage.

The counter is simple; stunbreak, load with conditions and laugh while they run away and the fall over. If you let the full combo hit you...... well you've got other problems.

It is my firm belief that people who cry 'THIEF OP!' are people who have never played a thief to level 80 and tried to pull off that high end crit. These folks probably die constantly in big groups, but don't know who to blame. So, when they die solo and see the thief did it, suddenly 4 months of butthurt explodes out of them "IT'S THE THIEVES DONE IT!"

Well, let me tell you here and now. For every 5 players that thief sneaks up on:

2 die
2 get away
1 kills them

That's right. Only 2 out of 5 players a thief attacks will actually go down. Unless, of course, you're one of those thieves that can smell a lost little sheep from range, and know which targets NOT to touch. There's some tells, but I'm not going to reveal them here.

So, if you think the thief is over powered, level one up to 80 and you try it in WvW then tell me what you think.

#47 astemalineath

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostTarkus, on 20 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

As a guy who runs a thief main (complete glass cannon roamer/scout), I would say that the class is powerful but not OP in the slightest. Most of the time as a roamer the guys that you kill are other thieves, and damn a lot of them are horrible (i.e. using dual pistols and using heartseeker when you are at 100% hp). Personally I have no issues with lot of thieves on the field considering that they are the best class for scouting in the game, and therefore are an essential asset to any commander. You may be witnessing the side effect of various guilds stepping up their game.

Oh yeah on a side-note, the only way that you could manage a 25k crit on a thief is if you were full zerk, built for crit in your traits, fed and using haste pistol whip. If someone uses this they will be blowing two utility cooldowns, anelite and all of their initiative. This guy will have 10k Hp and will be suseptable to condition damage.

The counter is simple; stunbreak, load with conditions and laugh while they run away and the fall over. If you let the full combo hit you...... well you've got other problems.

And after that they pop stealth and run away, not punished by their mistake.

#48 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

View Postastemalineath, on 20 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

And after that they pop stealth and run away, not punished by their mistake.

Oh no... then usually stunned, crippled, bleeded, chilled, poisoned and dead.

Play a thief in WvW and you'll know. It's not like you just pop stealth and poof! That's rare.

If it always happens to you, then get some utility in your build.

#49 Antithesis

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 20 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

It is my firm belief that people who cry 'THIEF OP!' are people who have never played a thief to level 80 and tried to pull off that high end crit. These folks probably die constantly in big groups, but don't know who to blame. So, when they die solo and see the thief did it, suddenly 4 months of butthurt explodes out of them "IT'S THE THIEVES DONE IT!"

Well, let me tell you here and now. For every 5 players that thief sneaks up on:

2 die
2 get away
1 kills them

That's right. Only 2 out of 5 players a thief attacks will actually go down. Unless, of course, you're one of those thieves that can smell a lost little sheep from range, and know which targets NOT to touch. There's some tells, but I'm not going to reveal them here.

So, if you think the thief is over powered, level one up to 80 and you try it in WvW then tell me what you think.

^^ I think this guy has it right on.

However, I can say as a kinda gc warrior I have been backstabbed by a thief for at least 15k one hit. That's alot of damage for a class that runs around in tights and hides in the shadows.

#50 nekomimimode

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:04 PM

As long as Anet refuses to give warriors any meaningful survivability buffs for PvP I will run thief. It's pretty comical seeing PvErs complain how warrior gets buffed every patch and yet the fundamental issue as to why they are weak in PvP is never addressed. As such you will always see hilarious things like rifle only warriors in wvw and the profession completely missing from tpvp.

Thief is on the opposite spectrum, Anet refuses to do anything to them unless you bitch and moan for a year about _insert spike build here_ and then they give it a hefty damage nerf so that people move onto a new flavor of the month rather than actually take the time to address the inherent design issues with the class.

It's been since release and all we've seen is fotm nerfs, don't expect balance to change anytime soon.

#51 Reisa

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 20 December 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:



Play a thief in WvW and you'll know. It's not like you just pop stealth and poof!


It's exactly like that.

#52 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostAntithesis, on 20 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

^^ I think this guy has it right on.

However, I can say as a kinda gc warrior I have been backstabbed by a thief for at least 15k one hit. That's alot of damage for a class that runs around in tights and hides in the shadows.

Yeah, but they're a one punch wonder. I love my thief, but they're not even close to an 'I WIN!' button.

#53 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

View PostReisa, on 20 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

It's exactly like that.

Okay. Have you plaid a full stealth thief in WvW?

I have. And it ain't like that. There's a lot that can go wrong shortly after the poof. 2/2/1 =  I get 2 kills, 2 run aways, and 1 death per five players I try to gank. Hardly a poof and gone thing.

There are some thieves way better than me at it, but those are hardly the norm. Most just try to pistol whip spam.

I had one that was reallt hard to nail down, but if you can keep swivelling and not get motion sick, you'll see him pop. It took 3 people to finally get him down but he was NO DANGER to us. He was too busy stealthing. We could be patient with no fear of him and wait for him to slip up. And that was THE BEST THIEF I've gone against. Most, I sneeze on and they die.

I think what people can't handle is the target break. You can't just spam tab and lock back on. And if you do, he stealths again.

Well... stop. And wait. One of two things will happen. He will attack you (then you stun break and hit back) or he will leave. Just keep your fingers on your dazes, stuns, blinds, bleeds, poisons or any other condition. You may never SEE him die, but trust me, he will.

I can't count the number of times I've crawled into hiding and had bleeds tick me out and dead. Many times, I'll get rooted, then I'm toast. Or, the player stun breaks and drops the arsenal of AoE on me. So many ways to make a thief cry. It's fun. Try it.

No one at 80, no matter the class, should ever die to a lone thief unless you're trying to protect a yak or rez someone. It should never happen. If it does, comb the internet for the basic ways to stop it. If it still happens, go to the thief forum and get some intel. Say you're playing a thief and want to know how to do it. They'll tell you right away what their weaknesses are...

At worst, you shoo the thief away like a mosquito. If they keep coming back, shoo them and waypoint. A thief ain't no thang.

Lastly, if there is some sort of bug, and you can show me it on video then yes I will join you in the quest to nerf thieves.

#54 johnnyutah21

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 20 December 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:


I think what people can't handle is the target break. You can't just spam tab and lock back on. And if you do, he stealths again.



It's always fun when you've got a ranged weapon fighting a thief and he stealths and you auto target animals around you.  I sometimes end up me vs. thief and 5 wolves/moas.

#55 Fittleluck

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

View Postnekomimimode, on 20 December 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

As long as Anet refuses to give warriors any meaningful survivability buffs for PvP I will run thief.

Ditto for me. Backstab powah.

#56 Tarkus

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

Glass cannons should be what they are described as, squishy as f**** and but able to incredible burst. Stating that you want to run a more survivable greatsword glass cannon warrior, albeit the fact that they have two forms of invincibility and the ability to stunlock you in a 1v1 is just silly. Warriors do not need any more buffs to the class, as they have recieved hardly any impactful nerfs and only buffs.

For crying out loud, a guildee just posted a screen-shot of a kill-shot from his glass cannon rifle warrior where he was able to hit a guy for 33k. You have to realize that if you are running glass as a warrior or as a Thief that yes you will do a shite-tonne of damage, however your survivability is incredibly low as it should be. All you needed was to be able to spot the cues that show that a thief is around (a thief running from ~200, or a halfcapped sentry), be more observant, bring a stunbreaker and just turn around and one-shot the thief (hell they have 10k hp and low toughness ffs). If you can't see them after the stuff up their backstab, then drop AoE; its really not all that hard.

QQ'ing that your warrior needs even more buffs is silly, because it is more likely a problem on the keyboard-side of the fight. If you know that you are in a situation where you are susceptible for being ganked, why do you go there anyway? Warriors are great within certain situations, as are thieves. So stop the QQ, and don't stand in the fire for crying out loud (or petting a burning dog if that's your thing).

Edited by Tarkus, 20 December 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#57 nekomimimode

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

View PostTarkus, on 20 December 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Glass cannons should be what they are described as, squishy as f**** and but able to incredible burst. Stating that you want to run a more survivable greatsword glass cannon warrior, albeit the fact that they have two forms of invincibility and the ability to stunlock you in a 1v1 is just silly. Warriors do not need any more buffs to the class, as they have recieved hardly any impactful nerfs and only buffs.

For crying out loud, a guildee just posted a screen-shot of a kill-shot from his glass cannon rifle warrior where he was able to hit a guy for 33k. You have to realize that if you are running glass as a warrior or as a Thief that yes you will do a shite-tonne of damage, however your survivability is incredibly low as it should be. All you needed was to be able to spot the cues that show that a thief is around (a thief running from ~200, or a halfcapped sentry), be more observant, bring a stunbreaker and just turn around and one-shot the thief (hell they have 10k hp and low toughness ffs). If you can't see them after the stuff up their backstab, then drop AoE; its really not all that hard.

QQ'ing that your warrior needs even more buffs is silly, because it is more likely a problem on the keyboard-side of the fight. If you know that you are in a situation where you are susceptible for being ganked, why do you go there anyway? Warriors are great within certain situations, as are thieves. So stop the QQ, and don't stand in the fire for crying out loud (or petting a burning dog if that's your thing).


Who even said I wanted to run a glass cannon? jesus I don't even do that on my thief (you don't even really need to to run backstab since backstab build wasn't nerfed for wvw save for dancing dagger which isn't even used in the spike) I can't even imagine how unfun that would be on warrior

No matter what you say Warriors are one of the least run class in tpvp because they get shit on by conditions and have no real panic button like pretty much every other class, ESPECIALLY compared to thieves.

And as far as complaining killshot? lol, k. Bring a stunbreak you say? You don't even need that to dodgeroll a move that takes 1.75 seconds + travel time to come out and is incredibly obvious from its animation.

#58 RandolfRa

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:56 PM

Quote

If you can't see them, they can't see you. It literally will not reveal a culled player unless it also reveals that player to the other one. It's a one for one. You are mistaking stealth for culling. Trust me on this, if they are culled for you, they match it up that you are culler for them. The issues come from AoEs which hit ALL players, culled or not.
You are so wrong. The thief can still target you and land his 1-1-1-1... combo. They do this all the time in the big SM fights. Your best hope against these is to spam c to target the closest enemy.

View PostBeastgate, on 18 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Lol @ 25k crit.
They can get pretty close. Around 18k or so with Backstab + steal + firesigil, but it requires a little luck.

Edited by RandolfRa, 21 December 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#59 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 21 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

You are so wrong. The thief can still target you and land his 1-1-1-1... combo. They do this all the time in the big SM fights. Your best hope against these is to spam c to target the closest enemy.

*sign* You took that way out of context.

With stealth, YES they can target and attack and damage and kill you when you can't see them. That's why they DO it! Jeeezzzz...

I'm talking about the current culling system, where people NOT in stealth can't be seen. JUST the CULLING people, not those who are stealthed and NOT culled.

Okay, for the last time here's how it works. You come into a new area and see no enemies. The client then determines which enemies are closest to you, and reveals them. The rest are 'culled', meaning you cannot see them and they cannot see you. They can still drop AoEs and hit you, as you can do to them.

Until the client decides to reveal them, they can't touch you. Now, for sure the client MAY reveal a stealthed player who is still in stealth. THAT GUY can hit you and you won't see him until he does. He's been 'revealed' but still can't be seen or targeted due to his stealth, but yes he can target and hurt you.

Again, what I am talking about has nothing to do with stealth. I am merely stating that people are mixing up the effects of culling with the effects of stealth. That causes confusion which causes the devs to look at culling for bugs, instead of looking at stealth for bugs.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: and about thieves landing the full 1,1,1 chain before being seen, yup. With Haste, all three will land before the graphics card catches up with said thief appearing. Know why? because hasted DD 1,1,1 takes less than a second. Play a thief at 80 and try it. You'll start to appear but land all 3 before you are fully rendered. It's fast!

And certain traits that stealth you IGNORE the 'revealed' condition. Tested it myself yesterday.

Edited by CalmLittleBuddy, 21 December 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#60 Val367

Val367

    Fahrar Cub

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 18 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

People blame Thieves when they should be blaming themselves and culling.

Putting it bluntly; if you get killed in 2 seconds by a Thief... you suck.

Really? So 4k steal, 3k c&d, 4.5k backstab, 2k wildstrike, 2k lotus ... all while I can't move or dodge isn't OP and I am to blame?? GTFO. I'll bet you are one of those gutless fotm types.

Of course if you can survive that initial ridiculous onslaught .. then they turn tail and run like girls when you try to fight them.

Cheap and gutless .. that's most of the thieves around.

Roll on nerfs - there is no other prof that can get away with this much damage and still have outs to run and hide.

Angry? yep - still doesn't change the fact that they need nerfing




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