81 replies to this topic

[Humungous]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

...

First off, no need for all that huffing and puffing! And my girls are a lot more mature and kind than you give little kids credit for

Second, my real point was this: the common mistake is to think that if you just get over a hump, it will be fun again. It's just not true. One of those typical life lessons, but video games make it a really hard one to learn because they feed us this steady stream of meaningless "rewards", tricking us into placing value on something that we don't actually enjoy.

Play the game in ways you actually enjoy, not for virtual rewards or glory!

Edited by Humungous, 19 December 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[raspberry jam]

iLag, on 19 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

If more people thought like OP maybe this game may've been grindless.

What? No. OP is having fun, but there are people who do not think that the things OP is doing are fun. For such people, doing what OP is doing means accepting mediocrity. They want to reach the goals that they have set for themselves, or rather, that the game presented for them (e.g. legendary weapons). And those goals require grind, at least to get within a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, it sounds to me as OP derived more fun out of playing with his brother than playing the game. I think that the same post could have been made about any MMO (anything from good old UO or EQ to WoW to EVE Online to, hey, even Darkfall).

Basically social interaction is fun.

[Feathermoore]

raspberry jam, on 19 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Basically social interaction is fun.

Social interaction being the entire point of an MMO.

[Kymeric]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Games have no right way to play, stop saying random b/s just because you want to be smart or an elitist.  You'd be amazed how many people play games in ways you'd never even dream of.  Some people play games to challenge themselves, doing speed runs where they take no damage.

I understand your point, but it's overstated.  Of course there are design choices that go into a game, and they shape ways in which a game will be successfully approached.

It's clear that at least one of the values ArenaNet has designed for is approaching the game in a broad way, moving through a variety of content.  Now there are also desing choices that run counter to this, like fractals, monthly achievements which require fractal runs, and ascended gear.  Which just goes to show that design can have mixture because there are competing goals and values that a designer is trying to meet.

If someone was trying desperately to force elaborate roleplaying experiences into a straight-forward shooter, you could point out that the game wasn't really designed for that, and there might be better options.  Of course someone could insist and even manage to make an RP experience happen, but it wasn't part of the design team's intention, and therefore the game doesn't do anything to support it.

Yeah, everyone can play a game however they want, with varying levels of success.  That doesn't mean there isn't intent behind game design.

People can complain about diminishing returns, for example, and theorize about the monetization motivations behind it.  Or, perhaps it's simply a choice to try and discourage farming of one single area of the game, and instead move through a variety of content so that DR doesn't take it's toll.

Or the long grind to legendaries.  Perhaps they're simply a gem shop ploy.  Or perhaps they really are something that you are supposed to reach somewhere between six months and one year of play time, just following your bliss through the content.  If you are very goal oriented with it, it looks like a ridiculous grind.  If it's just something you figure you'll earn enough to shoot for some day while playing the game, perhaps it's not.

I'm not so naive to believe that there aren't monetization goals mixed in here as well, but there are plenty of signs in the games design that there is intent to avoid the farming/maximum efficiency mentality, whether or not it has been successfully achieved.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Kymeric, on 19 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I understand your point, but it's overstated.  Of course there are design choices that go into a game, and they shape ways in which a game will be successfully approached.

It's clear that at least one of the values ArenaNet has designed for is approaching the game in a broad way, moving through a variety of content.  Now there are also desing choices that run counter to this, like fractals, monthly achievements which require fractal runs, and ascended gear.  Which just goes to show that design can have mixture because there are competing goals and values that a designer is trying to meet.

If someone was trying desperately to force elaborate roleplaying experiences into a straight-forward shooter, you could point out that the game wasn't really designed for that, and there might be better options.  Of course someone could insist and even manage to make an RP experience happen, but it wasn't part of the design team's intention, and therefore the game doesn't do anything to support it.

Yeah, everyone can play a game however they want, with varying levels of success.  That doesn't mean there isn't intent behind game design.

People can complain about diminishing returns, for example, and theorize about the monetization motivations behind it.  Or, perhaps it's simply a choice to try and discourage farming of one single area of the game, and instead move through a variety of content so that DR doesn't take it's toll.

Or the long grind to legendaries.  Perhaps they're simply a gem shop ploy.  Or perhaps they really are something that you are supposed to reach somewhere between six months and one year of play time, just following your bliss through the content.  If you are very goal oriented with it, it looks like a ridiculous grind.  If it's just something you figure you'll earn enough to shoot for some day while playing the game, perhaps it's not.

I'm not so naive to believe that there aren't monetization goals mixed in here as well, but there are plenty of signs in the games design that there is intent to avoid the farming/maximum efficiency mentality, whether or not it has been successfully achieved.

Please don't talk about the game design unless you work for Anet.  I am so tired of people acting as if they know the intent of the designers when they are constantly proved incorrect every month.

You know what's overstated? This whole cut and dry approach of  "Anet said" b/s people have had going on since release.  Really, nobody cares what Anet said, nobody cares what their "intent" was or is anymore because it's obvious their intent has changed so many times.  

If you really believe you play "as the devs intended" then something is not right with you because gamers constantly break that rule.  Nothing is as simple as you try to make it out to be.

Humungous, on 19 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

First off, no need for all that huffing and puffing! And my girls are a lot more mature and kind than you give little kids credit for

Second, my real point was this: the common mistake is to think that if you just get over a hump, it will be fun again. It's just not true. One of those typical life lessons, but video games make it a really hard one to learn because they feed us this steady stream of meaningless "rewards", tricking us into placing value on something that we don't actually enjoy.

Play the game in ways you actually enjoy, not for virtual rewards or glory!

I have no problem with you having fun.  I just have a problem with people thinking they know the intent of Anet.  I don't know Anet's intentions and nobody does but Anet.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 19 December 2012 - 07:13 PM.

[I'm Squirrel]

It's mediocre at best, and was definitely the worst gaming experiences I've ever had when it was released. GW2 could've been much better.

[Kymeric]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

You know what's overstated? This whole cut and dry approach of  "Anet said" b/s people have had going on since release.  Really, nobody cares what Anet said, nobody cares what their "intent" was or is anymore because it's obvious their intent has changed so many times.  

If you really believe you play "as the devs intended" then something is not right with you because gamers constantly break that rule.  Nothing is as simple as you try to make it out to be.

I have no problem with you having fun.  I just have a problem with people thinking they know the intent of Anet.  I don't know Anet's intentions and nobody does but Anet.

Fair enough.

I tried to make sure not to put any "Anet said" in my post, because I was talking about my perceptions of the game design, not what they said in a manifesto or blog post.

You clearly subscribe to the philosophy that it is impossible to know the intent of any creator.  There are plenty of art and literary critics who base their approach around the same idea, so you have plenty of company in that.  The idea goes that intent is always obscured to the point that the only thing that matters is the relationship of audience and work.

It's a pretty bleak idea from the creator's viewpoint, that we can never actually have an intent that gets communicated... perhaps it's pure self-willed blindness that makes me think otherwise.

It'd be interesting to see the results of a poll that tried to figure out how goal oriented players are and  how much they liked GW2.  Maybe it would show no correlation at all.

Too bad the thread title wasn't something different, since the body of the OP didn't indicate anything about "intent".  Then we could have avoided this cul-de-sac, and just talked about the experience of playing the game without trying to find the most efficient route to specific goals.

Not that it would have stopped the posts like Squirrel's, since they pop up in most TA threads now regardless of topic.

I, on 19 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

It's mediocre at best, and was definitely the worst gaming experiences I've ever had when it was released. GW2 could've been much better.

Since I don't know your experience, I'm curious.  Did you play FFXIV at launch?  Secret World? Rift?  Ever played Soul of the Ultimate Nation?

Just looking for context, to understand how the worst gaming experience you've had fits into other games.

Edited by Kymeric, 19 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Craywulf]

raspberry jam, on 19 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

What? No. OP is having fun, but there are people who do not think that the things OP is doing are fun. For such people, doing what OP is doing means accepting mediocrity. They want to reach the goals that they have set for themselves, or rather, that the game presented for them (e.g. legendary weapons). And those goals require grind, at least to get within a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, it sounds to me as OP derived more fun out of playing with his brother than playing the game. I think that the same post could have been made about any MMO (anything from good old UO or EQ to WoW to EVE Online to, hey, even Darkfall).

Basically social interaction is fun.

Accepting mediocrity, has nothing to do with whether something is fun or not. Two people slinging mud at each other on a farm can have just as much fun as two people playing laser tag in a indoor arena. The latter would have statistical readout after the match, which is irrelevant because fun isn't about winning, losing or the numbers. It's about the actual moment of joy you are having in doing an activity.

Doing goal oriented things isn't about fun, it's about satisfaction. It's about the result and not about the journey. You're only satisfied if you perfected a goal. You might have fun doing goals, but it certainly isn't a priority.

[DuskWolf]

The big issue with GW2 I have is the one I mentioned elsewhere - it's all smoke and mirrors. It's not long before the spell is broken and you see the WoW mechanics lying beneath. Sure, you're doing a quest rather than picking it up, but the renown hearts are no different than WoW quests. And due to the deterministic nature of dice rolls, you need gear rather than want gear.

In TERA, one can go and take out a level 80 champion mob as a level 28 character in mid-20's gear. This can occur because there is a battle system in the game which rewards player skill. It's almost like a rhythm game, and if you're good you can come out of it having taken no damage. Champions Online has a similar system, where if you time your moves right and watch out for enemy tells (and block their attacks), then you can do much the same. This means that in Champions Online you can take a level 16 character to defeat a level 40 one (I know, I've done it).

But in Guild Wars 2, everything is gated. You can't take a level 75 character to beat a level 80 one, let alone a level 30 character. This is due to how deterministic dice rolls are in Guild Wars 2. Everything is decided by the roll of dice. And some mobs have more dice than you, and some mobs have less dice than you. Success or loss is about who can make the biggest numbers. So a level 75 character in level 70 gear is likely to get one-shotted by a level 80 mob.

This is where you start to feel uneasy, because nothing you do is determined by you. Oh, sure, there is the magic trick of faux-freedom provided by rolling, but base movement speed is so low and the actually roll speed itself is so slow that it becomes worthless. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone use a roll. Watch the big boss fights on Youtube, no one ever rolls in GW2 and with good reason. The time you spend rolling is time you could be spending spamming keys.

That's not to say that GW2 does nothing right. The world feel is amazing; Talking NPCs on schedules, hidden secrets, that sensation of a living world, all of these things are fantastic. But you're boxed into a tiny part of that until you've done the grinding for the next gear set. Grinding a gear set is like grinding for the key to the door to the next zone. You can't go into the next zone without doing that because you'll be one-shotted, or close to.

And that's sad. That means you can't do whatever you want. It means you can't be an intrepid explorer. It means that, after defeating all of those highly trained Flame Legion patrols, you can get one-shotted by an angry lynx. And that's a hallmark of WoW. That's why, for me, GW2 isn't working as it was advertised.

Eventually you'll come to the same realisation as the those of us who're tired of deterministic die rolls. You'll give up on GW2 as a lost cause and feel disappointed that it didn't live up to it's potential. ...well, that or you'll enjoy that the game plays itself for you, but then you'll realise that WoW does deterministic die rolls and vertical progression better, and you'll just go back to WoW. One of the two will happen.

Either way, GW2 is a game that only works for so long as it's able to con you with its smoke and mirrors routine. How long this con can go on varies from person to person. But eventually everyone comes to their senses. I think most people have, given the complaints about servers being ghost towns.

[Krazzar]

raspberry jam, on 19 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

What? No. OP is having fun, but there are people who do not think that the things OP is doing are fun. For such people, doing what OP is doing means accepting mediocrity. They want to reach the goals that they have set for themselves, or rather, that the game presented for them (e.g. legendary weapons). And those goals require grind, at least to get within a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, it sounds to me as OP derived more fun out of playing with his brother than playing the game. I think that the same post could have been made about any MMO (anything from good old UO or EQ to WoW to EVE Online to, hey, even Darkfall).

Basically social interaction is fun.

Or you could read his posts:

Humungous, on 19 December 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Spoiler

First off, no need for all that huffing and puffing! And my girls are a lot more mature and kind than you give little kids credit for

Second, my real point was this: the common mistake is to think that if you just get over a hump, it will be fun again. It's just not true. One of those typical life lessons, but video games make it a really hard one to learn because they feed us this steady stream of meaningless "rewards", tricking us into placing value on something that we don't actually enjoy.

Play the game in ways you actually enjoy, not for virtual rewards or glory!

It's not accepting mediocrity, it's enjoyment. What you describe is where the fun ends and the analysis and occupation begins, where it turns into a massively mundane occupation. You then describe a traditional MMO format where everything is strictly defined by the game, which isn't really how GW2 is designed, and seems odd since you're usually arguing games should have zero structure (wouldn't be the first flip-flop). Legendary weapons exist but it isn't a game goal, there is no requirement for legendary weapons, there isn't any objective gain that is required to play the game. People set a goal for themselves and it happens to be a very long-term goal and they want to complete it in a short period of time, they're structuring grind for themselves by only focusing on a long-term goal in the short-term.

If you'd like to read the post again you'd see it's the structure of the game that allowed for those experiences and not just social interaction, but I guess you have to make an excuse to take a stab in the dark.

DuskWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Spoiler

The big issue with GW2 I have is the one I mentioned elsewhere - it's all smoke and mirrors. It's not long before the spell is broken and you see the WoW mechanics lying beneath. Sure, you're doing a quest rather than picking it up, but the renown hearts are no different than WoW quests. And due to the deterministic nature of dice rolls, you need gear rather than want gear.

In TERA, one can go and take out a level 80 champion mob as a level 28 character in mid-20's gear. This can occur because there is a battle system in the game which rewards player skill. It's almost like a rhythm game, and if you're good you can come out of it having taken no damage. Champions Online has a similar system, where if you time your moves right and watch out for enemy tells (and block their attacks), then you can do much the same. This means that in Champions Online you can take a level 16 character to defeat a level 40 one (I know, I've done it).

But in Guild Wars 2, everything is gated. You can't take a level 75 character to beat a level 80 one, let alone a level 30 character. This is due to how deterministic dice rolls are in Guild Wars 2. Everything is decided by the roll of dice. And some mobs have more dice than you, and some mobs have less dice than you. Success or loss is about who can make the biggest numbers. So a level 75 character in level 70 gear is likely to get one-shotted by a level 80 mob.

This is where you start to feel uneasy, because nothing you do is determined by you. Oh, sure, there is the magic trick of faux-freedom provided by rolling, but base movement speed is so low and the actually roll speed itself is so slow that it becomes worthless. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone use a roll. Watch the big boss fights on Youtube, no one ever rolls in GW2 and with good reason. The time you spend rolling is time you could be spending spamming keys.

That's not to say that GW2 does nothing right. The world feel is amazing; Talking NPCs on schedules, hidden secrets, that sensation of a living world, all of these things are fantastic. But you're boxed into a tiny part of that until you've done the grinding for the next gear set. Grinding a gear set is like grinding for the key to the door to the next zone. You can't go into the next zone without doing that because you'll be one-shotted, or close to.

And that's sad. That means you can't do whatever you want. It means you can't be an intrepid explorer. It means that, after defeating all of those highly trained Flame Legion patrols, you can get one-shotted by an angry lynx. And that's a hallmark of WoW. That's why, for me, GW2 isn't working as it was advertised.

Eventually you'll come to the same realisation as the those of us who're tired of deterministic die rolls. You'll give up on GW2 as a lost cause and feel disappointed that it didn't live up to it's potential. ...well, that or you'll enjoy that the game plays itself for you, but then you'll realise that WoW does deterministic die rolls and vertical progression better, and you'll just go back to WoW. One of the two will happen.

Either way, GW2 is a game that only works for so long as it's able to con you with its smoke and mirrors routine. How long this con can go on varies from person to person. But eventually everyone comes to their senses. I think most people have, given the complaints about servers being ghost towns.

Do you actually read what you write?

Edited by Krazzar, 19 December 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[DuskWolf]

Krazzar, on 19 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Do you actually read what you write?

Oh look. Krazzar doing nothing but insulting people again. Again. Which is all you ever do due to having a lack of a valid argument. Sorry guy, you have zero credibility with me at this point. All I've known you for from the start is either insulting people in a really base way, or trying to convince people that your insults are arguments using the most ridiculous doublespeak possible (and I have a strong distaste for that). You should realise... if you treat people like they're stupid enough, eventually they'll all catch on.

Really. The amount of insulting of the reader's intelligence, doublespeak, and pure superiorist brown-nosing that goes on around here thanks to the fans is more than a little nauseating.

Edited by DuskWolf, 19 December 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Levistis]

Agreed, I always just get on the game and let it take me wherever it wants to take me, and hey, just started Fractals last night and god damn, I LOVE THE SWAMP, but jesus some people just cannot listen to simple directions lol.

[FoxBat]

DuskWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

But you're boxed into a tiny part of that until you've done the grinding for the next gear set. Grinding a gear set is like grinding for the key to the door to the next zone. You can't go into the next zone without doing that because you'll be one-shotted, or close to.

Getting one shotted 5 levels under has very little to do with gear or even raw stats. It's simply that the damage formula factors level itself hugely, and further stacks things against you with glancing blows, outright condition immunity when difference is 10+, etc. It's quite easy to get by with crap whites and blues from ten levels ago as long as your character is on-level. Ultimately the main purpose of levels is to prevent you from waltzing into the dragon's lair, yes. That said, there are people doing level 40 fractals in glass canon gear without resistance. If you ever tried dodging you might start to piece together how they pull that off.

Edited by FoxBat, 19 December 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[Heart Collector]

DuskWolf, on 19 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Either way, GW2 is a game that only works for so long as it's able to con you with its smoke and mirrors routine. How long this con can go on varies from person to person. But eventually everyone comes to their senses. I think most people have, given the complaints about servers being ghost towns.

I really don't agree with this at all. I understand what you mean about about its underlying WoW similarities, I've been noticing it as well... But to me it's not a problem. It's not all the same. The parts where it differs are the parts that count for me. I've been enjoying the game since release (more or less) and have played almost every day to varying extents (from 20 minutes to 4 hours), and I'm still having fun. I really don't feel conned nor deluded, I pretty much got what I was expecting and whilst the game is far from perfect (there are lots of things ANet can do to make it better) it's still good enough for me.

[Zero_Soulreaver]

Kymeric, on 19 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Fair enough.

I tried to make sure not to put any "Anet said" in my post, because I was talking about my perceptions of the game design, not what they said in a manifesto or blog post.

You clearly subscribe to the philosophy that it is impossible to know the intent of any creator.  There are plenty of art and literary critics who base their approach around the same idea, so you have plenty of company in that.  The idea goes that intent is always obscured to the point that the only thing that matters is the relationship of audience and work.

It's a pretty bleak idea from the creator's viewpoint, that we can never actually have an intent that gets communicated... perhaps it's pure self-willed blindness that makes me think otherwise.

It'd be interesting to see the results of a poll that tried to figure out how goal oriented players are and  how much they liked GW2.  Maybe it would show no correlation at all.

Too bad the thread title wasn't something different, since the body of the OP didn't indicate anything about "intent".  Then we could have avoided this cul-de-sac, and just talked about the experience of playing the game without trying to find the most efficient route to specific goals.

What are you even talking about? Lets stay on topic here I am talking about Anet not "every creator". I think people get way too hung up on  trying to uncover true meanings of things that don't need to be uncovered.  My point is that you say you play to the intent of Anet like their are guidelines.  If you want the reality, the "intent" of Anet was for the fans to play how they see fit.

I think people give Anet way too much credit and honestly they didn't know what to even expect.  What they thought the game was going to be and what the game actually is today are completely different.  How can I say this?  Just look at how the game has constantly changed due to fan input.  If it were all about Anet's intent the game wouldn't have been altered the way it has been.

The fans are the one's who broke the game down in a few weeks and Anet just went by what we found in it.  I believe a lot of people misjudge the GW2 fanbase and think they are the worst people ever.  It's quite sad that people see Anet as being some sort of wizards for making the game, but shit on the fans by trying to blend everyone together so easily.

Edited by Zero_Soulreaver, 19 December 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Kymeric]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

What are you even talking about? Lets stay on topic here I am talking about Anet not "every creator". I think people get way too hung up on  trying to uncover true meanings of things that don't need to be uncovered.  My point is that you say you play to the intent of Anet like their are guidelines.  If you want the reality, the "intent" of Anet was for the fans to play how they see fit.

Okay, so you can discern creator's intent in other works, but it's impossible with GW2.  Got it.

Quote

I think people give Anet way too much credit and honestly they didn't know what to even expect.  What they thought the game was going to be and what the game actually is today are completely different.  How can I say this?  Just look at how the game has constantly changed due to fan input.  If it were all about Anet's intent the game wouldn't have been altered the way it has been.

Intent and eventual product are two different things.  You can have all the design intent you want, but realities tend to throw wrenches into that.

Quote

The fans are the one's who broke the game down in a few weeks and Anet just went by what we found in it.  I believe a lot of people misjudge the GW2 fanbase and think they are the worst people ever.  It's quite sad that people see Anet as being some sort of wizards for making the game, but shit on the fans by trying to blend everyone together so easily.

People who play MMORPGs like they are full time jobs present a unique set of challenges to developers.

I don't believe ANet is perfect.  I do like what I percieve to be their goals for the game.

[Bloodtau]

Feathermoore, on 19 December 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Social interaction being the entire point of an MMO.

Chatting to people via text is not social interaction.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Heart Collector, on 19 December 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I really don't agree with this at all. I understand what you mean about about its underlying WoW similarities, I've been noticing it as well... But to me it's not a problem. It's not all the same. The parts where it differs are the parts that count for me. I've been enjoying the game since release (more or less) and have played almost every day to varying extents (from 20 minutes to 4 hours), and I'm still having fun. I really don't feel conned nor deluded, I pretty much got what I was expecting and whilst the game is far from perfect (there are lots of things ANet can do to make it better) it's still good enough for me.

Well said. Medriocre attitude always fit a mediocre product

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

What are you even talking about? Lets stay on topic here I am talking about Anet not "every creator". I think people get way too hung up on  trying to uncover true meanings of things that don't need to be uncovered.  My point is that you say you play to the intent of Anet like their are guidelines.  If you want the reality, the "intent" of Anet was for the fans to play how they see fit.

I think people give Anet way too much credit and honestly they didn't know what to even expect.  What they thought the game was going to be and what the game actually is today are completely different.  How can I say this?  Just look at how the game has constantly changed due to fan input.  If it were all about Anet's intent the game wouldn't have been altered the way it has been.

The fans are the one's who broke the game down in a few weeks and Anet just went by what we found in it.  I believe a lot of people misjudge the GW2 fanbase and think they are the worst people ever.  It's quite sad that people see Anet as being some sort of wizards for making the game, but shit on the fans by trying to blend everyone together so easily.

I just wonder if you realized gw2 is next (not yet) to the 4th month, and they changed and keep changing all, even the core advertised? I mean, ffXIV was intended and launched in a way, who turned to be a fail (add tech issues). The company begged customers to stay for free. Just now, next year, we will see a paid sub, reborn. Customers don't give too much credit. Customers ask a supported products without bugs and when found, fixed asap, interesting content, no exploits, no scam, no idiot 1 time event only ideas, no core changes of the advertisement (still present and sold as day 1 , a game "for the sake of the fun, not a gear grind clone" ). That's called cheat paid customers. Input? Who gave input for geargrind of ascended gear? Noone thinks they are wizards, most are realizing they are mediocre on everything they did on this game, actually

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[pswendel]

Lucas Ashrock, on 20 December 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Well said. Medriocre attitude always fit a mediocre product

I'm curious if you could name a product which is not mediocre, if GW2 is in this club.

[Lucas Ashrock]

pswendel, on 20 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

I'm curious if you could name a product which is not mediocre, if GW2 is in this club.

Uhm well, every subbed mmo with honest behaviour and devs interested to hear and accomplish their goal and community's interests. Loads are. No, i will not fall in your game shooting a name receiving some laugh/agree/disagree or chitchat about it shrinking the thread, try again

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 12:44 AM.

[kendro1200]

Lucas Ashrock, on 19 December 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

He's illuded gw2 is the glorious successor of gw1 (which share just the name) , and forgetting how gw2 won that "title" of game of the year.
Let him be. Fanboys and casuals playing zerg wvw/pvp find this game a pearl.
Guess soon we will see "the 2012 mmo who failed faster" title lol. 3 months, 99% of the posts on their official forum (when not insta deleted banning the user digging the truth) of complains and "this game is pure junk, look at X Y Z, there isn't one single thing on this game worthy his price" again and again on page 1-2-3 of every section, even festivity sections

Within a few months every mmo's forum is filled with junk posts about "how crappy the game is".  When crappy people play a game, they give crappy feedback; same principle applies in all areas of life.

[Yui San]

Protoss, on 19 December 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Meh, GW1 did it better.

Better... Luxon title, kurzick title (yes I know they made them a lot easier over the years), alc title, sweet title, party title etc. Forgot about these exciting activities? ^^

[Lucas Ashrock]

kendro1200, on 20 December 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Within a few months every mmo's forum is filled with junk posts about "how crappy the game is".  When crappy people play a game, they give crappy feedback; same principle applies in all areas of life.

No doubt. FFXIV was like this, SWOTR too. A fail no doubt deserve to be filled even on the main forum and every fanbased one of complains and "how crappy the game is" at his 4th month.
And people just leave. Exactly what is going on about gw2. I guess FFXIV and SWOTR customers was crappy people too, not the game, right?

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Desild]

Bloodtau, on 19 December 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Chatting to people via text is not social interaction.

Do you have the academic qualifications to even state that? Because here, around campus, even commuting on a bus counts as a social interaction. And for a whole faculty of psychologists and sociologists, they must surely know what they are talking about. Right?

Every interaction with another human being is a social interaction. Be it a shake of hands, a conversation or even glare across a room.

Now, if social interactions where what MMOs are all about, I'd say "almost, but not quite". It's more of an enforced caste system that gages an individuals worth based on merit. A player's position on those castes and their self-realization and comfort with their assign position in this pseudo-society is part of what determines their enjoyment. Being with other members of your caste also ups your enjoyment. That, and the catharsis derived from interacting with the game. WoW's success is not much about it being a superior game, but due to the strict caste system present, and the struggle every player has to face to reach the top percentage. GW2 on the other hand, made an effort to remove castes altogether, but failed astonishingly at it!

[kendro1200]

Lucas Ashrock, on 20 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

No doubt. FFXIV was like this, SWOTR too. A fail no doubt deserve to be filled even on the main forum and every fanbased one of complains and "how crappy the game is" at his 4th month.
And people just leave. Exactly what is going on about gw2. I guess FFXIV and SWOTR customers was crappy people too, not the game, right?

WoW, EQ, and EVE were all filled with "this game is crap, change this or I'm quitting" posts very early (EVE less so, as it has a very narrow playerbase)  They are all up and kicking.  Vocal minorities crying the end of the world on forums claiming to be a vocal majority is way past the instance of "boy who cried wolf" it's more of a given.  Just because people post that the game is crappy on the main forums means absolutely nothing towards the actual quality of the game.
As for SWTOR though, only a handful of people who didn't even bother to actual look up anything that was showed from the beta thought that game was going to go anywhere.  That game was close to half a years development away from a release build when it was released.  Using that game to add credibility to doomsayer posts is like believing Israel's claims that every country in the world wants to see it dead just because the Iranians are cranky at the moment.

[Draehl]

The issue with GW2 IMO isn't the content or the progression, but the gameplay system itself. They took the safe/easily balanced route when it comes to skills, so many of them, even across professions are so similar. Traits generally have limited effects. Seriously, compare the skills in GW2 to GW1 or even WoW- they're pretty stale to be honest. I can hope they will beef them up over time...

[Heart Collector]

Lucas Ashrock, on 20 December 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Well said. Medriocre attitude always fit a mediocre product

I happen to be extremely picky about my games, and play them for different reasons. GW2 is great for a more laid back approach, when you want to relax rather than challenge yourself. There's nothing mediocre about relaxation, it is needed when you're actually challenging yourself with your life outside of videogames.

[XPhiler]

Zero_Soulreaver, on 19 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Here we go again with people trying to tell others how to play a game.  You have to be kidding me, sometimes I just wonder how old some people are on these forums b/c everything is like 5 yr olds who get mad when you do things a certain way. "Waaa nuuu your doing it wrong! Let me do it!"

The irony here is these people are constantly proven wrong every single patch GW2 has.  Now those who were claiming the game was made for "them" are sad because the game changed which is proof they were never the #1 fans they thought they were.  This game was made to cater to everyone and it was always that way.

Games have no right way to play, stop saying random b/s just because you want to be smart or an elitist.  You'd be amazed how many people play games in ways you'd never even dream of.  Some people play games to challenge themselves, doing speed runs where they take no damage.

I think you're reading too much into this... You're behaving like people want to force you to play the game their way but these kind of posts dont have the malice you're assuming they have. This isnt a stop playing your way and start playing my way.

This is more a I understand the issue you're having but I avoided that by playing like this. Why not give it a try and see if it works for you too ?

Like you correctly say, it will definitely not work for everyone. Not everyone enjoy the same things. That being said, is there any harm in trying?

[Ritualist]

Yui San, on 20 December 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Better... Luxon title, kurzick title (yes I know they made them a lot easier over the years), alc title, sweet title, party title etc. Forgot about these exciting activities? ^^

Those were absolutely moronic parts of the game. But, and this is why GW1 did it better rather than amazing, the moronic parts were mostly viewed as moronic and were easier to avoid. 20 levels with 1k max gear is much easier to deal with than 80 levels with ascended gear. Heroes make for a much more welcoming party than people. ...
Playing the game the way you want was much easier in GW1 than it is in GW2 and it's down to the more limited vertical progression of GW1.

[raspberry jam]

Craywulf, on 19 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Accepting mediocrity, has nothing to do with whether something is fun or not.
(...)
fun isn't about winning

Krazzar, on 19 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Or you could read his posts:

It's not accepting mediocrity, it's enjoyment.

Scrubs will be scrubs.