146 replies to this topic

[AKGeo]

Arquenya, on 24 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

So .. by your definition, if you go to the casino and if every time you lose they give you a pat on your back and a sugar cube, cookie, peppermint or piece of chocolate, isn't it gambling anymore?

How about if you go to the casino, put $50 worth of quarters into the machine, and on the last pull of the handle you get a voucher for a free meal in the restaurant, instead of the $500 worth of quarters in the machine. Or if you put $500 on the craps table and you get a new pair of Nikes instead of the $5000 pot.

All you did was overpay for that pair of shoes or meal. In fact, that meal might actually be worth more than the $50 you spent in the machine. But that's beside the point.

The point is you didn't get money back.

Realize that people wouldn't go back to that casino if this happened. People don't go to a casino to win shoes and food. They go to win money. But people in GW2 don't buy gems to win cash back. They buy gems to get in-game rewards. And they get in-game rewards. Every single time. It might not be the very thing they went there to get, but they got it nonetheless.

[DarkGanni]

Lucas Ashrock, on 20 December 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

Because we gw1 players found it a fun variation worthy of a bag slot, an here is just a useless junk we don't want?
(no need to be a gw1 player to get it's just junk wasting space)

Thank you, couldn't say it better myself.

I find most of GW1's good ideas were simply watered down and turned in favor of a money making profit. It's not only tonics but simple commodities such as accessing bank from everywhere, cause I doubt we have a lack of bank access in most areas by mistake.

Anet no longer cares about their customers, all that matters is money.

[DuskWolf]

Trei, on 24 December 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

So would you actually buy a refrigerator just because it gives you a lucky draw chance to win a car, then claim you get nothing when you lose because you never wanted the refrigerator?

Example of supporter fallacy.

Supporter compares a key, an item that has no use other than to open a lock, with an item of commodity which has a variety of uses. The supporter then goes on to say that you shouldn't be upset that you got the refridgerator because of its multiple uses, whilst not acknowledging that a key does not have the same diverse amount of use as a refridgerator.

Sigh.

And this is why we can't have nice things, because people will be outright intellectually dishonest in order to defend a company that rips them off and treats them like walking wallets. Good show.

This is actually depressing.

What kind of mindset must one have to not only accept manipulative and predatory businesses as okay, but to then go on to support them with logical fallacies, as if the corporate entity were their own brother? What kind of person is happy to be ripped off, and more than that, ripped off with a smile on their face as though they appreciated it? ...I'll never understand.

It's just... weird. I mean, on tumblr under the guild wars 2/gw2 tags I see people recognising what I've spoken of here all the time. It seems that there are just a few holdouts left; ArenaNet's official forums, Reddit (yay downvoting), and a small pocket oin Guru.

How long until the rest of you wake up?

Edited by DuskWolf, 25 December 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[Trei]

DuskWolf, on 25 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Example of supporter fallacy.

Supporter compares a key, an item that has no use other than to open a lock, with an item of commodity which has a variety of uses. The s....?

Example of failure to understand corresponding comparatives in an analogy.

It renders the rest of your post irrelevant when you can't even get the first part right.

[AKGeo]

DuskWolf, on 25 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Example of supporter fallacy.

Supporter compares a key, an item that has no use other than to open a lock, with an item of commodity which has a variety of uses. The supporter then goes on to say that you shouldn't be upset that you got the refridgerator because of its multiple uses, whilst not acknowledging that a key does not have the same diverse amount of use as a refridgerator.

The only different use between an unbreakable bell and a regular bell, of which you can get quite easily from the gifts, is that the unbreakable can be used well beyond you're bored of annoying the people around you with your lack of musical talent. And you can sell it for quite a bit more.

He's not comparing a key to a refrigerator, he's comparing a refrigerator to a car, both of which are valued purchases to a standard individual and would be welcome rewards in any raffle or contest. Just because you didn't receive the top prize doesn't mean that you didn't come out with more than what you had going in: something rather than nothing.

And I don't feel ripped off in the least. I paid $60 for a game and I'm still enjoying it. Skyrim didn't keep me engaged nearly this long.

[AKGeo]

Lucas Ashrock, on 20 December 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

Because we gw1 players found it a fun variation worthy of a bag slot, an here is just a useless junk we don't want?
(no need to be a gw1 player to get it's just junk wasting space)

tonics were worth keeping in GW1 because they gave party points. These ones don't, but you can cancel them instantly. You also can't play the game normally while under the effects of one. They're not entirely useless....numerous times I've had to bow out of a costume brawl because too many people got the skeleton form from the mystery tonics and just ran around kicking everyone's ass, including my bought and paid for pirate costume.

They're useful for costume brawl without having to buy a costume or waiting for a witch to spawn a cauldron. And while you might not think that's worthy, at least it's achievement points. That alone gives them value beyond the direct novelty.

Edited by AKGeo, 25 December 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[Plutonsvea]

I guess it comes down to a matter of perspective.
If we sat here all day and gossiped about the things that you don't like, we would all be here for a while. Tonics are Tonics, and mini pets are mini pets. If you don't like it, destroy it. Very simple.

[iLag]

Plutonsvea, on 25 December 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

I guess it comes down to a matter of perspective.
If we sat here all day and gossiped about the things that you don't like, we would all be here for a while. Tonics are Tonics, and mini pets are mini pets. If you don't like it, destroy it. Very simple.

No, but fact is players gamble with BLC and these things that 90% of players dont care about are in them.

[Arquenya]

iLag, on 25 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

No, but fact is players gamble with BLC and these things that 90% of players dont care about are in them.

Indeed.

ANet puts stuff in it - that can only be acquired by means of buying keys with RL cash (and a few lucky drops or a lvl10 quest, which seem to be there just to raise your appetite).
Things like permanent bank access now cost 800 gold, which currently is equivalent to 45,000 gems,which is  $ 550.
Permanent BL merchant now cost 330 gold, which currently is equivalent to 18,000 gems, which is  $ 225.

Now people wouldn't pay those amounts if they were availabe at the gem shop at these prices. It would be outrageous! And since most people don´t have 300-800 gold, the only way - to at least have a chance - to get these (very convenient) things - which were or would be accessible anywhere in GW by the way - is using keys. Who knows you are lucky and get a small fortune worth of utilities?
Yeah, right ...

In the end it's the equivalent of a lottery. Where you at least get that useless nice sticker or pen with logo (read: tonic) if you buy a ticket - for $1.57€/£1.33 each.
And a pen isn't useless because you can write down your shopping list with it! But that's not what you buy a lottery ticket for. And at least pens aren't "account bound". As it is right now, I can't even selll/give it to someone that would like to have one and that player has to use the gems shop - even to get a karma booster! while 1,000s of players have stacks of them gathering dust in their bank slots. In my opinion this goes way too far. Or things that you get so many stuff, like 69 tokens for a dungeon instead of say 5 - so your inventory space runs out and you need more bank space. All those subtle ways that redirect you to the gems store.
Nobody says Anet shouldn't be allowed to make any money - but this is starting to feel too greedy.

Really, all those sneaky things like pretty armour only available in useless flavours (thus: gem shop for T-stones), account bound boosters and exclusive "BL chest lottery only" stuff like bank access via 100s of $ worth of keys really take away from the game quality or enjoyment.

DarkGanni, on 25 December 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I find most of GW1's good ideas were simply watered down and turned in favor of a money making profit. It's not only tonics but simple commodities such as accessing bank from everywhere, cause I doubt we have a lack of bank access in most areas by mistake.

Exactly. It doesn't surprise me at all that a lot of people would rather pay a subscription fee to be rid of all this crap and get general bank access, Fine T-Stones, being able to mail stuff to your own characters and hairdressers (and more) for free (or a small in-game gold fee).

Edited by Arquenya, 27 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[FiachSidhe]

They're an uninspired, lazy way of padding holiday items, so people gamble more money on those shitty boxes. And like everything else, Anet has latched on to it and is proceeding to beat the concept to death. I leanred my lesson with Halloween and the event afterwards was even worse.

That coupled with their shameless, and disgusting treatment of negative feedback, and I've simply gone back to the The Secret World. Anet and NCSoft, and that tick from Nexon that runs their monetization can suck my balls.

Edited by FiachSidhe, 26 December 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[witteker]

unless it's an endless tonic.

[Lucas Ashrock]

DuskWolf, on 25 December 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Example of supporter fallacy.

Supporter compares a key, an item that has no use other than to open a lock, with an item of commodity which has a variety of uses. The supporter then goes on to say that you shouldn't be upset that you got the refridgerator because of its multiple uses, whilst not acknowledging that a key does not have the same diverse amount of use as a refridgerator.

Sigh.

And this is why we can't have nice things, because people will be outright intellectually dishonest in order to defend a company that rips them off and treats them like walking wallets. Good show.

This is actually depressing.

What kind of mindset must one have to not only accept manipulative and predatory businesses as okay, but to then go on to support them with logical fallacies, as if the corporate entity were their own brother? What kind of person is happy to be ripped off, and more than that, ripped off with a smile on their face as though they appreciated it? ...I'll never understand.

It's just... weird. I mean, on tumblr under the guild wars 2/gw2 tags I see people recognising what I've spoken of here all the time. It seems that there are just a few holdouts left; ArenaNet's official forums, Reddit (yay downvoting), and a small pocket oin Guru.

How long until the rest of you wake up?

I'm wondering the same. When the rest of them will wake up? Disarming, their lack of logic, isn't it.
But you can figure out easily who is still sleeping. Mostly teens , expecially who had the game bough by daddy and paying the gemstore with daddy's credit card, cheap charlie who truly don't know there is way better for their f2p fun available yet (someone said PSO2 with eng patch?Even dc universe spit on gw2 by miles) and masterpiece coming (Elder scroll online, pso2 international version , ffonline reborn etc), gw1 fanboys still having difficulties to get this is a commercial junk, not even the dust of what gw1 was about everything from lore to content, and well, casuals who don't give a damn then have a game to log if and when, and why not, waste some cash on it. Funny, isn't it.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 26 December 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[witteker]

Lucas Ashrock, on 26 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

I'm wondering the same. When the rest of them will wake up? Disarming, their lack of logic, isn't it.
But you can figure out easily who is still sleeping. Mostly teens , expecially who had the game bough by daddy and paying the gemstore with daddy's credit card, cheap charlie who truly don't know there is way better for their f2p fun available yet (someone said PSO2 with eng patch?Even dc universe spit on gw2 by miles) and masterpiece coming (Elder scroll online, pso2 international version , ffonline reborn etc), gw1 fanboys still having difficulties to get this is a commercial junk, not even the dust of what gw1 was about everything from lore to content, and well, casuals who don't give a damn then have a game to log if and when, and why not, waste some cash on it. Funny, isn't it.

Lucas the pso2 fanboystrikes yet again.

[stormofstatic]

witteker, on 26 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Lucas the pso2 fanboystrikes yet again.

atleast he posts somthing worth reading ? im waiting on PSO2 as i played the 1st on dreamcast and it was awesome, if FF14/Teso is F2P/B2P ill try them also, gw2 has to many flaws and lacking features even gw1 has

like squaresoft said in one interview about ff14 v1 they wanted to make somthing different to ff11 and ended up with crap all he told his guys to go play WoW for a few months and start ff14 reborn as u cant make somthing good out of nothing, all anet had 2 do was take gw1 revamp it put in todays MMO features and hey presto a 100% better game and unique selling points.

ppl moan at WoW when ppl bring it up sad fact is if u want to beat wow u dont try to copy it like SWTOR and wow lite aka GW2 did u do what blizzard themselfs do u copy the best bits drop the crap and add your on flavor

gw2 could of added so many features but didnt want to pay for the work to balance them simply they all cash>time

could of kept heroes  (Swtor has them)
dual proffs
banks in outposts
UW/Fow
prob should have kept the instanced maps (they stll are in a way)
titles instead of crapy achiements that dont do anything
named bosses/skills
trophy items npcs (give 5 of a kind get some gear)
mission quests with their own hubs

[Shatteredz]

DarkGanni, on 25 December 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Thank you, couldn't say it better myself.

I find most of GW1's good ideas were simply watered down and turned in favor of a money making profit. It's not only tonics but simple commodities such as accessing bank from everywhere, cause I doubt we have a lack of bank access in most areas by mistake.

Anet no longer cares about their customers, all that matters is money.

You realise that with A comes B?
If costumers are happy, money comes. Not the other way around.
Oh, and just a heads up, arenanet(nor any other gaming company, maybe Mojang but thats it) is a COMPANY, not a charity. Welcome to the real world.

[Arquenya]

Shatteredz, on 26 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Oh, and just a heads up, arenanet(nor any other gaming company, maybe Mojang but thats it) is a COMPANY, not a charity. Welcome to the real world.

This again, so you haven't read the thread I guess?

As a lot of people already said, people don't have problems with a company making profits, just with the way they're doing it, even compared to other, similar game companies.

[Shatteredz]

Arquenya, on 26 December 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

This again, so you haven't read the thread I guess?

As a lot of people already said, people don't have problems with a company making profits, just with the way they're doing it, even compared to other, similar game companies.

Tell me about a game with a cash shop that is designed better then.

[MazingerZ]

Arquenya, on 25 December 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

snip

Pretty much this.  I think the last time I was interested in buying a product because of the prize inside and not the product itself, I was 12.

Shatteredz, on 26 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Tell me about a game with a cash shop that is designed better then.

TF2.

I can pretty much get ANYTHING at the Mann Co, or it can drop, or I can buy a key and open it in a crate.  It's not necessarily restricted.

Edited by MazingerZ, 26 December 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 26 December 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

This again, so you haven't read the thread I guess?

As a lot of people already said, people don't have problems with a company making profits, just with the way they're doing it, even compared to other, similar game companies.

Indeed, they should put over powered gear that is a tier over Ascended in the Gem store and stop people from going into dungeon if they don't buy a weekly dungeon pass and so on.

I really don't see how people can complain about the fact that they decide to make money on COSMETIC things that in NO WAY effects the game-play.

Would people really prefer a store with P2W items?

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 26 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Indeed, they should put over powered gear that is a tier over Ascended in the Gem store and stop people from going into dungeon if they don't buy a weekly dungeon pass and so on.

You wish!!

Shatteredz, on 26 December 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Tell me about a game with a cash shop that is designed better then.

Designed from a commercial point of view or from a customer's standpoint?

Edited by Arquenya, 26 December 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[Shatteredz]

Arquenya, on 26 December 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

You wish!!


Designed from a commercial point of view or from a customer's standpoint?

Both i suppose, since both are equally important.

oh, and why the gw2 gemshop is (IMO) one of the best ones to date:
-Gems are buyable with in-game currency (keep that Anet controls prices BS aside, true or not).
-No P2W inside the gem store.
Only downside to the gemstore so far is the RNG factor.

Edited by Shatteredz, 27 December 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

The "only" part is what we are disappointed of

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 26 December 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

You wish!!

Nope, I prefer to actually have to work ingame for my stuff.
I am simply trying to understand the logic behind all the hate for the gem-store seeing as the alternative is what I described.

[AKGeo]

stormofstatic, on 26 December 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

atleast he posts somthing worth reading ? im waiting on PSO2 as i played the 1st on dreamcast and it was awesome, if FF14/Teso is F2P/B2P ill try them also, gw2 has to many flaws and lacking features even gw1 has

like squaresoft said in one interview about ff14 v1 they wanted to make somthing different to ff11 and ended up with crap all he told his guys to go play WoW for a few months and start ff14 reborn as u cant make somthing good out of nothing, all anet had 2 do was take gw1 revamp it put in todays MMO features and hey presto a 100% better game and unique selling points.

ppl moan at WoW when ppl bring it up sad fact is if u want to beat wow u dont try to copy it like SWTOR and wow lite aka GW2 did u do what blizzard themselfs do u copy the best bits drop the crap and add your on flavor

gw2 could of added so many features but didnt want to pay for the work to balance them simply they all cash>time

could of kept heroes  (Swtor has them)
dual proffs
banks in outposts
UW/Fow
prob should have kept the instanced maps (they stll are in a way)
titles instead of crapy achiements that dont do anything
named bosses/skills
trophy items npcs (give 5 of a kind get some gear)
mission quests with their own hubs

GW1 didn't have heroes until NIGHTFALL.
GW1 dual professions were useless except for maybe one or two utility skills from that other profession. And they were much easier to create exploits and "farm" builds, something they don't want in GW2, BECAUSE of the open world.
Banks are a minimal issue. But I have nothing to refute it, so you have that one.
UW and FoW were only able to be entered by talking to their respective gods' aspects. The gods have left Tyria. I'm sure they'll come back, and with them will likely be elite dungeons for EACH god, not just Grenth and Balthazar.
You answered it yourself.
There are titles. Based on achievements, Just like GW1. You just get achievement POINTS as well.
There ARE named bosses. Every boss has a name. I don't see what else you're going for here.
Karma vendors exist so you can complete quests anywhere then get armor pieces. NO need to run around the immediate area hoping for a specific drop from a specific enemy 5 times in order to get one piece of armor. Karma is much better than trophy collectors.
Dungeons.

You described Guild Wars 1. Go play Guild Wars 1. This is Guild Wars 2...not just a pretty rehash of the same old 7 year old formula. It's much better by far, IMO.

[stormofstatic]

AKGeo, on 27 December 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

GW1 didn't have heroes until NIGHTFALL.
GW1 dual professions were useless except for maybe one or two utility skills from that other profession. And they were much easier to create exploits and "farm" builds, something they don't want in GW2, BECAUSE of the open world.
Banks are a minimal issue. But I have nothing to refute it, so you have that one.
UW and FoW were only able to be entered by talking to their respective gods' aspects. The gods have left Tyria. I'm sure they'll come back, and with them will likely be elite dungeons for EACH god, not just Grenth and Balthazar.
You answered it yourself.
There are titles. Based on achievements, Just like GW1. You just get achievement POINTS as well.
There ARE named bosses. Every boss has a name. I don't see what else you're going for here.
Karma vendors exist so you can complete quests anywhere then get armor pieces. NO need to run around the immediate area hoping for a specific drop from a specific enemy 5 times in order to get one piece of armor. Karma is much better than trophy collectors.
Dungeons.

You described Guild Wars 1. Go play Guild Wars 1. This is Guild Wars 2...not just a pretty rehash of the same old 7 year old formula. It's much better by far, IMO.

in its current state gw2 wont last 7 years its the same old wow clone formula with a pinch of aions grind, no grind you might say go level tailoring without using TP see how far u get, and if gw2 is much better then why are so many leaving/complaining that its not like GW1, if gw1 relased a new xpac yes i would be back at it, thats bad for anet that i would rather play a 8year old game than a new game lol

as for karma being better than just collecting trophy's 30 bits = max lvl gear in gw1 220k karma maybe more for half a set of full lvl gear u still need rings trinkets back weapons

[AKGeo]

stormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

in its current state gw2 wont last 7 years its the same old wow clone formula with a pinch of aions grind, no grind you might say go level tailoring without using TP see how far u get, and if gw2 is much better then why are so many leaving/complaining that its not like GW1, if gw1 relased a new xpac yes i would be back at it, thats bad for anet that i would rather play a 8year old game than a new game lol

as for karma being better than just collecting trophy's 30 bits = max lvl gear in gw1 220k karma maybe more for half a set of full lvl gear u still need rings trinkets back weapons

And Karma is cheap as dirt now with the addition of jugs and drops from dailies and dungeons. One month if you keep up on dailies and your monthly req gives you 50 jugs, and with a karma booster and guild boosts that's over 300k karma. All at once.

GW1 was a much smaller game from a much smaller company...if getting max armor was difficult nobody would have played it very long. GW2 is a different beast. Now, if they give you max armor too quickly and easily, most of the players they were targeting would get bored and leave.

[stormofstatic]

AKGeo, on 27 December 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

And Karma is cheap as dirt now with the addition of jugs and drops from dailies and dungeons. One month if you keep up on dailies and your monthly req gives you 50 jugs, and with a karma booster and guild boosts that's over 300k karma. All at once.

GW1 was a much smaller game from a much smaller company...if getting max armor was difficult nobody would have played it very long. GW2 is a different beast. Now, if they give you max armor too quickly and easily, most of the players they were targeting would get bored and leave.

did u read what u wrote ? 1 month + vs a few hrs, and if i wanted to do the daily every day id go back to world of dailycraft thx

well the ppl are leaving... as for biger id say gw2 feels smaller cause of the waypoints imo, and thats the problem gw1 handed u max armor and ppl didnt get bored things to do, gw2 makes u work for it "no grind game" and ppl leave if they wanted to work for gear they would be at rift tera wow ...swtor ok i kid last one

gw1 was fun to pop in and out and still be able to do ANY content gw2 sooner or later will be a gear score game xpacs will raise lvl cap add higher lvl gears maybe add new legenday weapons (they already said lvl caps will be raised)