146 replies to this topic

[Khlaw]

Sure, it's a gamble - but nobody is forcing (or even pressuring) you to spend a penny past the $60 you initially dropped for the game.  You are in no way at a disadvantage if you never buy a single gem.  And if you really want gems, you can buy them with gold and still not spend a penny.

I go to a few conferences a year in Vegas as part of my job.  The slots are there, but nobody is making me play them - and in fact I don't.  I still have a great time, and still get a lot out of the conferences, but without spending a dime of my own.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Oh, you lost such a lot of fun, and maybe loads of cash too. Ever tried? Come with me, i can show you how amazing gamble is Oh c'mon, don't tell me you're a weak mind not able to not fall in the circle of dependency, call me next time
(this devil's smiling invite is applied to gw2 gemstore scams too obiouvsly)

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[I'm Squirrel]

I disagree. Town clothes are worse.

[omar316]

I agree with many sentiments of the posters.

Personally I hate the addition of these redundant tonics.
I think every one can agree, tonics are part of the game. It is tolerable. Waste of space, game code yes. That is also tolerable.

But holy bloody hell, wasting more time and investment to come up with more of these tonics: Not tolerable.
Why do we need more of these junk when it adds to absolutely nothing to enhance the game play?
The BLC gambling portion/Mystic Forge I can just overlook it's RNG crapiness. But adding more shit to promote it is complete junk.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Funny part is when a tonic (finally some would say) has some predetermined skills to annoy people around you, with Bang and effects. Except you need someone else to wear similar stuff to play with you. For a minute at best. Jeeeeeeez

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 20 December 2012 - 04:00 AM.

[Lythuun]

I'd hate Tonics a little bit less if they stopped taking up all the room in my bank.

They really need their own collectible tab, Anet's just slacking with it.

[Yui San]

iLag, on 20 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Trivial? No the fact is they make us gamble[...]

Wrong, they don't make anyone gamble, they only gave us the possibility to do so. You don't have to gamble at all.

[DeadlyZeus]

They need to create new special skills for them for anyone to be using them. Also, why don't they make the minipets useful in combat? Why are they only aesthetic?

[Khlaw]

DeadlyZeus, on 20 December 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

They need to create new special skills for them for anyone to be using them. Also, why don't they make the minipets useful in combat? Why are they only aesthetic?

Minis are non-combat in every game I've played.  They're completely aesthetic.  And if you think people are angry now, imagine if minis helped you in combat in any way, shape, or form.  You'd be able to tell who in your city plays GW2 from their cries of outrage at ANET forcing you to do X, Y, or Z to get them.

[Craywulf]

iLag, on 20 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Trivial? No the fact is they make us gamble with things like the Black Lion Chest and a spot is taken up by a useless piece of shit no one that doesn't grind for it by itself cares about

They don't "make" you do anything. It's your choice whether you wanna "gamble" by opening a BL chest, which you know before hand that the loot is randomized.

If you're that afraid of randomized loot, then sell the BL chest and key on the trading post and buy the loot you want. But don't sit here and bitch and moan about being "forced" to do anything. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you that you need to like every aspect of the game to enjoy it. Stop nitpicking and deal with it.

Edited by Craywulf, 20 December 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[cyclopsje]

Protoss, on 19 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

As I said before, I think the bigger problem is that they are expanding on content we didn't buy GW2 for. I think a bunch of us would be absolutely thrilled if GW2 was more about cute outfits and beating enemies to a pulp instead of all the jumping puzzles, town clothes, crafting, harvesting, ...

I must agree on the fact that its lacking armor choices. Beating enemies to pulp well dont see that problem do it on daily base.

iLag, on 19 December 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Also first of why mention its b2p at ALL. No one told them to make it p2p it's just b2p is the future. Don't you see the smart ones like Secret World converting ?

Also wheres the sources on a big update?
.

Source sorry cant find so fast but it has been said if i find it later on i will place it in here.

[Arquenya]

Craywulf, on 20 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

If you're that afraid of randomized loot, then sell the BL chest and key on the trading post and buy the loot you want.

The loot I want (like fine t-stones) is account bound, just as the keys (afaik).

Try again

Edited by Arquenya, 20 December 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[MazingerZ]

Anything you can buy with gems is generally account bound.

Sad, because I would probably be making some money if I could undercut the gem price for a key versus paying for it with in-game gold.  I know keys are fairly cheap, but I would rather have the gold by undercutting the exchange rate, rather than ArenaNet (GOD OF THE ECONOMY) preventing the transaction with Account Bound flags and instead taking that gold the void so people can purchase the key from their shop with gems.

In theory, that's a real economy.  Not this farce.

[Sinful01]

This thread is fun .. it feels so far off track in some areas. Weeeee!

Ok, my turn to say something somewhat over-the-top and tenuously on topic ...

Yui San, on 20 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

Wrong, they don't make anyone gamble, they only gave us the possibility to do so. You don't have to gamble at all.

But ... no one is forcing children to smoke, so we should allow them to purchase cigarettes and promote them in video games!  If they pick up a vice and fall into a pattern of negative behavior, that is their choice.

[Yui San]

Sinful01, on 20 December 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

But ... no one is forcing children to smoke, so we should allow them to purchase cigarettes and promote them in video games!  If they pick up a vice and fall into a pattern of negative behavior, that is their choice.

Your comparison makes no sense. There are laws that children are not allowed to buy/smoke cigarettes and that's just fine. And who was talking about promoting anything? We are only talking about the fact that there is a legal possibilty to do some sort of gambling in GW2. Players can do that if they like to try their luck, but no one has to

And if a child decides to "try" smoking it's their choice to some extent. But there are of course a lot of other factors which can be discussed in a psychology, sociology etc. forum.

[GrrBabble]

I think tonics are fun - yet I have a problem with them being an inventory item. I think the whole inventory management piece needs some help.

They started off with a great system, separate location for crafting materials, with instant deposit from anywhere in the world. Fantastic addition to MMO!

They have a spot for mini-pets, and even PvP gear. Dyes, once used are unlocked on a separate menu. I think they should iterate and really consider what types of items they want us to play bag management with.(inventory is really just another mini-game, whether or not we think it's a fun mini-game is something else.)

Tonics could easily be another, separate slot, like a "Tonic Belt". A place for everything and everything in it's place. They could even charge Gems to expand it, I would not mind.

But I would like to see things like Tonics not be part of my daily Bag/Bank management tasks. Otherwise, when it comes to it, tonics will be /destroyed. Same with town clothes as mentioned in other posts.

/edit and Boosters!

Edited by GrrBabble, 20 December 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[Sinful01]

I wrote a big post to discuss this all, but removed 90% of it because it wasn't much on topic for the thread. So, to cut it short ...

Yui San, on 20 December 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Your comparison makes no sense.

Being mostly illogical was my intent, because most of the threads here devolve into less-than-sense-making anecdotes and craziness anyway.  I just wanted to join in

But I'd argue it makes some form of tenuous sense ... your quote was basically "they just provide a means to gamble, you don't have to" ... my attempt was to draw the comparison to offering cigarettes to children, and promoting them in game.  Gambling being a vice, and smoking being one; both fine for adults that know better and want to do them anyway, but universally considered bad for children.

Quote

There are laws that children are not allowed to buy/smoke cigarettes and that's just fine. And who was talking about promoting anything? We are only talking about the fact that there is a legal possibilty to do some sort of gambling in GW2. Players can do that if they like to try their luck, but no one has to

There are laws against gambling as well, at least here in the States (not sure how it is elsewhere).  Online gambling involving real money is illegal, and gambling by minors is as well ... yet, if we slather it in a pretty skin (make it look like a chest & key) suddenly we can rope in a whole bunch of kiddies to get hooked on spending real cash for RNG.

Mobile game apps have been in the news here as well; that they are designed to, more or less, 'trick' kids into giving away their parent's money via micro-transactions. The arguments are usually "you're teaching kids to gamble/letting them gamble".  It isn't forced on them, it is just offered.... but, if you make it look pretty enough, kids are going to do it. So I suppose ... where do you draw the line?


BACK on topic more:  After thinking about it, I'm glad they reduced the tonic drop rate in the BL chests and give a better chance to find something different, too.  I think it was a move in the right direction.

[DuskWolf]

@Sinful01

Thanks, I couldn't have said it better.

Is it really so evil of me to dislike predatory microtransactions? I dislike them on mobile devices just as much, and I know I'm not alone in that. It's fairly known that some mobile sites--such as Touch Arcade--do have rants about how unethical they are. I'm not fond of them in anything, it's not just related to GW2, but it's part of what I see as being The Guild Wars 2 Problem.

I find that free to play titles on mobile devices do rely on predation of minors, as Sinful01 pointed out, that's been in the news. But here's the question: Are free to play MMO tactics any different? Honestly? I can't see that they are. They're all designed to swindle people out of more money than they'd otherwise pay if they were involved in a direct and honest payment-for-product or payment-for-service transaction. When you buy a product or a service, everything involving that has to be clearly laid out for the buyer, because there are laws which regulate this and protect the consumer. The Internet is a veritable Wild West though, filled with snake oil salesmen.

I don't mind if the price for something is high. Please don't get me wrong, there. I have nothing against ArenaNet charging a ridiculous amount of gems for boxing gloves. That's a price-for-product transaction. A demo would be nice, so you can have more granular details, but even as it is you have a good idea of what you're getting, and the price is there in front of you. When you start veiling or obfuscating the product or service, that's when things step into the realm of predatory capitalism and gambling.

I've cited why I think this is bad before... but if we're feeling more charitable to an ethical point of view, I'll do it again. This isn't related to Guild Wars 2 specifically, either. Just keep that in mind:

An honest price for product transaction: An area of a game costs $10. A rough overview of the area is given, screenshots are provided, and... if we're feeling really generous? Reviews are allowed. You buy it and you gain access to it.

A dishonest and predatory transaction: You buy currency which speeds up your access to the next piece of content. This is like buying points to make building go faster in mobile games, or buying gold to skip grinding in an MMO. It'll get you to the next area more quickly, but you're doing it often without keeping track of what you're spending or what you're getting.

There should be regulatory committees which stop the latter from happening, it bugs me. ArenaNet and other free to play games (including mobile ones) need profits. I get that. I totally get that! I'm not unfeeling or uncaring; Nor am I unethical, that's the thing. They're a business and they want to make money, but my opinion is that all businesses should have to make it honestly, we shouldn't let capitalism run unchecked. The thing is is that there was already a good and honest system for this years ago, back when the world was a more innocent place.

It was called shareware, or demos. You'd be given a chunk of content for free, to test the waters to see if you liked what you got, then the rest of the content would be sold off either as a whole piece or chunks. Like buying Doom or Duke Nukem 3D episodes. Now, I know a lot of money goes into the development of free to play games. I totally get that, I sympathise. But I cannot, in good conscience, say that unethical, predatory business practises are okay. Neither should you. And again, this isn't just about GW2, this is about free to play in general. On the PC, on mobile devices, and likely on consoles soon enough.

Sometimes we consumers are our own worst enemy. We'll just put up with bad treatment because we don't think we have any other choice. But we do: We have a higher opinion of ourselves and vote with our wallet. If we recognised predatory practises and stopped pouring money into them, then it would be less profitable to be predatory, and they'd have to be honest. This is an area where being suckers really hurts us, and until we have a regulatory committee in place which is designed to protect consumers from such online shenanigans, we have to watch ourselves.

Black Lion chests? Not cool. MannCo chests? Not cool. Buying points to speed up a game? Not cool. Buying gold to skip grind? Not cool. Entering into a clear transaction where you purchase an as-advertised product with your hard earned money? Cool.

[Alleji]

Lythuun, on 20 December 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

I'd hate Tonics a little bit less if they stopped taking up all the room in my bank.

You can drag an item outside your inventory to delete it, you know.

[Gremlin]

Happy to see any additional content in the game whether its 10 tonics or 100 tonics who actually cares.
If you want them get them if you don't ignore them.

Is this a case of "nothing shall be added to the game that I am not in a position to acquire for myself"
Basically Jealousy

[MazingerZ]

Alleji, on 21 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

You can drag an item outside your inventory to delete it, you know.

As I said, you never know when they're going to turn anything into a Mystic Forge recipe.

It's another veiled attempt to get you to save on your inventory space and buy more inventory space by filling it with useless crap, until they deem that crap "not useless."

[DuskWolf]

Mmhm. And it's really not just a GW2 thing at all, it's a mobile thing, it's a free to play thing, and it's just something I'm just a little fed up of seeing. I don't like feeling "encouraged" to buy a product. It just makes me feel a little dirty putting money down on it when I see what they're doing. It's a predatory tactic.

It's that they're selling X, and they want to make you buy X. Gold taxes, grinding, and not giving much in the way of rewards encourages you to buy gold and so on. The inventory thing is no different.

How about they just make a product that we want to buy? If a product is a good product then you don't need to manipulate people into wanting to buy it. Yeah, maybe I'm a bit of a hippie, but I still believe in ethics. And I don't think any of this is really acceptable. Is this really the way we want to go? Down a road of less consumer rights? Where companies are encouraged to manipulate us?

If you ask me it's a vicious circle. They manipulate you into paying, you pay, and they see that their mnaipulation was successful, so they do it again. And again. And again. And again.

Edited by DuskWolf, 21 December 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[Lythuun]

Alleji, on 21 December 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

You can drag an item outside your inventory to delete it, you know.

Thanks. Maybe if I look up the sky will still be blue.

[Minu]

If people persist in buying gems, then Anet will continue to offer mixed bags of crap for sale.  They have no incentive to improve what's on offer since people are paying them anyway.

[DuskWolf]

Minu, on 22 December 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

If people persist in buying gems, then Anet will continue to offer mixed bags of crap for sale.  They have no incentive to improve what's on offer since people are paying them anyway.

Yep, there'll definitely be some that will. As depressing a realisation as that is. Though I keep hoping that the majority will be savvy enough to see what's actually being done, there, and avoid it. It's just weird that teaching corporations to exploit us is trending right now.

[Minu]

DuskWolf, on 22 December 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Yep, there'll definitely be some that will. As depressing a realisation as that is. Though I keep hoping that the majority will be savvy enough to see what's actually being done, there, and avoid it. It's just weird that teaching corporations to exploit us is trending right now.

Indeed, and you can almost guarantee that if people voted with their wallets rather than moaning on here, Anet would pretty quickly add more of all the things that people want.

[Calypso589]

1. Some people like tonics. Others dont. It uses existing skins so I wouldnt exactly blame them for what some of you SUBJECTIVELY believe is a lack of content.

2 personally I find everything coming out of the BL chests to be useful. Ill save up maybe around ten, buy some keys and BAM. Im sittin pretty on repair canisters, BL express merchs, 2 dozen fine Tmute stones, a BL salvage kit for my exotics and so on. MF and karma boosters are also useful.

Most of you are too negative to ever be pleased by anything, really. Youre using tonics to stipulate about corporate brainwashing?

Dear god.....

[DuskWolf]

Calypso589, on 22 December 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Youre using tonics to stipulate about corporate brainwashing?

I needed a laugh, so you get a like.

No. It's everything but the tonics if you'd actually read what's being talked about. But I suppose it's easier to skim. It's more that the obfuscation of product and the obvious rip off therein, and how we seem to believe that's okay, is the issue. I've already gone over why this is bad, I'm not going to do it again.

But no, not the tonics, no.

And I'm pleased by many things. I just don't like predatory business practises. As I've also said in this thread, I think they're bad in general. I don't like the idea of buying points to speed up a free to play game. Just sell the game, or sell parts of the game, but to provide a 'free' game and then to sell people 'points which allow you to play it?' That's predatory. It preys on those who aren't so wise with their money - mainly the young.

GW2 does a similar thing with the necessity of buying gold every so often. The tiny trickle of gold into the world, the constant gold taxes, the ridiculous prices involved in crafting or obtaining certain types of gear... so you either have to grind for the money to pay for this, or you have to spend money to buy gold. That's no different than spending money to buy points for one of those free to play games.

I'd rather a clear price-for-product transaction. I value honesty.

But hey, we're apparently telling businesses that this sort of behaviour is okay. So that's what the problem is.

Minu, on 22 December 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Indeed, and you can almost guarantee that if people voted with their wallets rather than moaning on here, Anet would pretty quickly add more of all the things that people want.

Welp. That's what I'm doing. Their predatory antics were one of the reasons I uninstalled the game. And if I'm not playing, I'm not tempted to pay for anything. Instead, my money is going out on other games which I find to be less predatory.

[Brass Lion]

Who cares?  Once Anet has a monster model, making a tonic for it probably takes about 5 minutes.  It's not draining resources from anything important.

[XgreatArtist]

tonics are a waste of resources. I rather anet put their time and effort on something more constructive.
Oh wait i think i am talking about the US government

Edited by XgreatArtist, 23 December 2012 - 04:52 AM.