146 replies to this topic

[Magi]

DuskWolf, on 23 December 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

I needed a laugh, so you get a like.

No. It's everything but the tonics if you'd actually read what's being talked about. But I suppose it's easier to skim. It's more that the obfuscation of product and the obvious rip off therein, and how we seem to believe that's okay, is the issue. I've already gone over why this is bad, I'm not going to do it again.

But no, not the tonics, no.

And I'm pleased by many things. I just don't like predatory business practises. As I've also said in this thread, I think they're bad in general. I don't like the idea of buying points to speed up a free to play game. Just sell the game, or sell parts of the game, but to provide a 'free' game and then to sell people 'points which allow you to play it?' That's predatory. It preys on those who aren't so wise with their money - mainly the young.

GW2 does a similar thing with the necessity of buying gold every so often. The tiny trickle of gold into the world, the constant gold taxes, the ridiculous prices involved in crafting or obtaining certain types of gear... so you either have to grind for the money to pay for this, or you have to spend money to buy gold. That's no different than spending money to buy points for one of those free to play games.

I'd rather a clear price-for-product transaction. I value honesty.

But hey, we're apparently telling businesses that this sort of behaviour is okay. So that's what the problem is.


Welp. That's what I'm doing. Their predatory antics were one of the reasons I uninstalled the game. And if I'm not playing, I'm not tempted to pay for anything. Instead, my money is going out on other games which I find to be less predatory.

Let me preface this all by saying that I adored GW1, and I enjoy GW2 almost equally as much. However, I have one particular gripe.

One of my main complaints about GW2 thus far is the very strong push for Gem Store usage. Black Lion chests drop by the hundreds, while their corresponding keys are all but nonexistent. Fine Transmutation stones are excruciatingly rare, so good luck customizing your armor's looks. Unless you can get the stat distribution on the correct item skin, of course. Would you like minipets? The current TP supply comes solely from the Gem Shop, so there's more incentive to buy gems. Really like that item's Sigil/Rune? Better buy a BL Salvage Kit off the Gem Shop or pray for something that isn't just a coin/jug of karma from your daily. Would you like some bank slots for crafting materials that should have been in since release and take mere minutes to program? Sorry, better get some gems together to purchase a bank expansion/inventory expansion/extra character slot for a mule. It's infuriating.

Having to resort to converting my gold to gems (I refuse to purchase gems for incidentals that should be purchasable via other means) every time I want a tiny, almost insignificant, convenience item is obnoxious. The cash shop should be a place for pretty armor and weapon skins, no more. Even then, care must be taken so that these armor/weapon skins don't overly outshine those that can be acquired in the game itself. A couple of unique, holiday-themed skins is sufficient. I would rather be paying a monthly subscription and be free of these noxious, blatant cash grabs than what we currently experience.

Tonics were a very important aspect of GW1, and I'm glad they made a return in GW2. Something a lot of people can't seem to grasp, is that GW1 was all about Title progression and armor/weapon/etc. acquisition. The armor and weapon markets being based solely around what looked the most badass/cost the most to acquire, and not stats. Furthermore, within that "etc." category lie the Tonics and Minipets. While I do not agree with how the minipets/tonics can be acquired, I don't think they should be removed.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Yui San, on 20 December 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Your comparison makes no sense. There are laws that children are not allowed to buy/smoke cigarettes and that's just fine. And who was talking about promoting anything? We are only talking about the fact that there is a legal possibilty to do some sort of gambling in GW2. Players can do that if they like to try their luck, but no one has to

And if a child decides to "try" smoking it's their choice to some extent. But there are of course a lot of other factors which can be discussed in a psychology, sociology etc. forum.

Legal possibility is something i would love to discuss with a judge and Anet lawyer defending his side , honestly , because i still doubt this gambe ingame is so much legal
Minors are allowed to use cash to try a random attempt to get a prize with an extremely low chance, behaving like a slot machine/any other gambling 18+ game. True , is not reconvertible to real cash, this doesn't means casino online are allowed to minors because no cashout

And even if the game turns out to not be persecuted for gambling allowed to minors like a casino online, still they are sneakily teaching children what gambling is, building and growing a future addiction to gambling. This well, is not legal and can be persecuted.

Still so sure everything is fine on this game?

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 07:10 AM.

[Lordkrall]

XgreatArtist, on 23 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

tonics are a waste of resources. I rather anet put their time and effort on something more constructive.
Oh wait i think i am talking about the US government

How is it a waste of resources to put like 2 lines of code into the game?
It takes about 5 minutes at most, seeing as all the models already exist, they simply need to tie it to an item, and that is not that hard.

[AKGeo]

Lordkrall, on 23 December 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

How is it a waste of resources to put like 2 lines of code into the game?
It takes about 5 minutes at most, seeing as all the models already exist, they simply need to tie it to an item, and that is not that hard.

And program skills, making sure they're "balanced" for costume brawl (that's a joke, as paid costumes are highly overpowered vs tonics). Not to mention that some tonics were not already in existence...they made the 5 new minipets and their respective tonics specifically for wintersday.

But then again, everyone expects new minipets and tonics for holiday events.


And you people need to lay off the "casino" bit. It's not a casino, you're buying in-game stuff. Period. You can't cash gems out for real money. That alone defeats the entire "casino" argument. Anet's defense will simply be "Those who pay money in the gem shop are only getting rewards in-game, some random, and some known. No money can or will be paid out to players who "luck out" on more valuable rewards from any random item purchased through the gem shop."

And while it has no legal mumbo-jumbo in it, that quotation alone will keep any lawsuit from even touching the eyes of a judge.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[chrisbdrake]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

Legal possibility is something i would love to discuss with a judge and Anet lawyer defending his side , honestly , because i still doubt this gambe ingame is so much legal
Minors are allowed to use cash to try a random attempt to get a prize with an extremely low chance, behaving like a slot machine/any other gambling 18+ game. True , is not reconvertible to real cash, this doesn't means casino online are allowed to minors because no cashout

And even if the game turns out to not be persecuted for gambling allowed to minors like a casino online, still they are sneakily teaching children what gambling is, building and growing a future addiction to gambling. This well, is not legal and can be persecuted.

Still so sure everything is fine on this game?

Anet would win in about 30 seconds, it's pretty clear what gambling is and isn't from a legal standpoint.  Japan might be different however because their gambling laws are funny.  I can't see a problem anywhere else in the world.

[Trei]

I don't suppose lucky draws and scratch'n'win type promotions are legal in his country?
They all fall under his definition of gambling after all.

Edited by Trei, 23 December 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Calypso589]

DuskWolf, on 23 December 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

I needed a laugh, so you get a like.

No. It's everything but the tonics if you'd actually read what's being talked about. But I suppose it's easier to skim. It's more that the obfuscation of product and the obvious rip off therein, and how we seem to believe that's okay, is the issue. I've already gone over why this is bad, I'm not going to do it again.

But no, not the tonics, no.

And I'm pleased by many things. I just don't like predatory business practises. As I've also said in this thread, I think they're bad in general. I don't like the idea of buying points to speed up a free to play game. Just sell the game, or sell parts of the game, but to provide a 'free' game and then to sell people 'points which allow you to play it?' That's predatory. It preys on those who aren't so wise with their money - mainly the young.

GW2 does a similar thing with the necessity of buying gold every so often. The tiny trickle of gold into the world, the constant gold taxes, the ridiculous prices involved in crafting or obtaining certain types of gear... so you either have to grind for the money to pay for this, or you have to spend money to buy gold. That's no different than spending money to buy points for one of those free to play games.

I'd rather a clear price-for-product transaction. I value honesty.

But hey, we're apparently telling businesses that this sort of behaviour is okay. So that's what the problem is.


Welp. That's what I'm doing. Their predatory antics were one of the reasons I uninstalled the game. And if I'm not playing, I'm not tempted to pay for anything. Instead, my money is going out on other games which I find to be less predatory.

Of course I didn't everything thats being discussed. Its a thread hating on tonics. I don't exactly need to know everything thats being said in order to figure out that alot of people read way too much into simple things.

Also, youre hate on predatory business practices is actually OFF topic if you really wanna get technical. Thought Id point that out since you criticizedme for not reading everything. This is a tonic hate thread! Not a "I hate predatory business models" thread.

Aaaand as far as gold goes its actually quite easy to make money if people would quit freaking themselves out by grossly over exaggerrating the whole instead of looking at the sum of its parts and finding the best methods.

For example, I farm mithril and Orichalcum ore for about two hours. Not back to back, as I hate to grind but thats how long I spend total on it. A stack of mithril ore currently sells for just under 2g and of course orichalcum will sell for more.

I also play the TP. Now you might default to "oh im not an economic genius" but really its just a matter of me placing buy orders on dozens of items across multiple markets and then reselling them for a profit.

Youre lookin at about 4-6 gold a day (admittedly im not always successful at the TP but my loss is never more than a gold or under).

Its ironic that people who don't want to work (grind) for gold are also the people who don't really want to do a decidedly less amount of work to find the easiest method to do so.

[Lucas Ashrock]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Anet's defense will simply be "Those who pay money in the gem shop are only getting rewards in-game, some random, and some known. No money can or will be paid out to players who "luck out" on more valuable rewards from any random item purchased through the gem shop."

And while it has no legal mumbo-jumbo in it, that quotation alone will keep any lawsuit from even touching the eyes of a judge.

Except you roll your dice for a tiny chance to get the reward you want. You cannot allow minors to use a credit card to keep attempting it, again and again, much less without a limit. And an adult gambling addicted player well, can even ruin his life on it. The best i remember was halloween chest, and more recently consortium chest. Even mini quaggan or permanent hair style, wintersday. One thing is "this is what the customer wants, this is the price. Miniquaggan price is 800 gems 1 chest of 2 is a guaranteed miniquaggan. When customers attempts it, 2nd chest at worst will be a guaranteed miniquaggan" One thing is a slot machine behaviour to attempts an incredible low chance to get something, rest is junk the customer doesn't need. There is people who wasted even 200 300 bucks on attempts during halloween, reporting on the main forum what happened, leaving this trashy casino game disgusted.
The immoral casino behaviour of everything on this game, adding the possibility to the customer to use cash on his attempts, from BLC to even the daily gambling for precursors, and when out of money, use the credit  card and buy more mats/ rare weapons precrafted, can easily be reconfigured as a gambling game. And cannot be allowed and is illegal. Not in france, maybe in germany. Not in the state of New York, maybe in Japan.
A worldwide class action about this matter and trust me,  we would watch the company sink refunding everyone of us all of thousand dollars and hopefully gw2 brand resold / shut down (speaking of which , i doubt most of us would cry if happens). At worst every customer get a complete refund of the game account, any form of randomization ingame removed, a precursor on your 3rd attempt at best guaranteed, no more scratch'n'win chests ingame, a removal of cash>gem and gem>gold. A pay to win mmo is " You buy x bucks of store gems, you get a weapon allowing you to play arah and fractals, if you don't buy you're not allowed to play that content". Still, who pay get a result. No gambling. A different game is a game where pure randomization results using cash maybe give you the reward. That's gambling. And this game is not a 18+ game nor explicitly a gambling game like a casino room online.

The tonic of this thread, is part of the topic about gamble. Toymaker tonic on top.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[beadnbutter32]

Tonics are instant delete trash drops as far as I am concerned.  Same with all the Winter's day crap drops, except those that I can TP for a few coins.  Do I want 'toy' looking weapons skins, um, no.

[AKGeo]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

snip

You roll the dice every time you play a video game with RNG drop rewards. someone who is addicted at buying RNG boxes from the gem shop will also be addicted to opening those dragon chests, jumping puzzle chests, killing every single monster out there for a chance at something valuable. It's called a GAME. Even gambling venues are full of GAMES. But the difference between this GAME and those GAMES is that you have a chance of getting money BACK from those GAMES, whereas this one you do not. That is the definition of a CASINO.


Again: if you do not/CAN not get money back from your investment, then it ceases to be a casino altogether.

Why are you advocating legislation that takes the place of personal responsibility? Kids can't have credit cards. Therefore they must be getting money from their parents. Those parents are at fault, not Arenanet. And adults that get addicted to gem shop RNG are also at fault, not Arenanet. Are you saying that players have no choice but to spend hundreds of dollars on gems to get a stupid in-game item that offers no benefit to them other than a new shiny piece of trinketry IN THE GAME? Why are you blaming Arenanet for their players' rampant stupidity?

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Arquenya]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Again: if you do not/CAN not get money back from your investment, then it ceases to be a casino altogether.

I guess people rather express the value in the emotional satisfaction they get from whatever they invest/get from the RNG stuff.

I may have used like 70 keys (all drops (which were way higher at the start) and rewards) but never got anything worthwhile from them. That's why I would never ever even consider buying keys, for example. The investment/reward ratio is far off, for me. I know I would have spend more cash on the shop if I would have been able to just buy whatever I wanted.

Edited by Arquenya, 23 December 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

You roll the dice every time you play a video game with RNG drop rewards. someone who is addicted at buying RNG boxes from the gem shop will also be addicted to opening those dragon chests, jumping puzzle chests, killing every single monster out there for a chance at something valuable. It's called a GAME. Even gambling venues are full of GAMES. But the difference between this GAME and those GAMES is that you have a chance of getting money BACK from those GAMES, whereas this one you do not. That is the definition of a CASINO.


Again: if you do not/CAN not get money back from your investment, then it ceases to be a casino altogether.

Why are you advocating legislation that takes the place of personal responsibility? Kids can't have credit cards. Therefore they must be getting money from their parents. Those parents are at fault, not Arenanet. And adults that get addicted to gem shop RNG are also at fault, not Arenanet. Are you saying that players have no choice but to spend hundreds of dollars on gems to get a stupid in-game item that offers no benefit to them other than a new shiny piece of trinketry IN THE GAME? Why are you blaming Arenanet for their players' rampant stupidity?

I think you have a quite confused idea of how a casino is configured as casino and how it becomes a gambling game or not. I'll help you. Tell me, do you know why a casino room even using fake money, is not allowed worldwide to minors? After all is a videogame if no cash is involved, isn't it
Parent are in fault? For what. For allow his son to use their credit card to gamble a BLC chest, to allow him to play gw2 using an immoral and borderline illegal way to teach minors how gamble works and how to be addicted to it when adult or what.
There is a big study about how dangerous is a gamble game on minors mind, and what kind of damage create on his mind, and consequencies when adult. Accepted worldwide.
Also, weak minds/ gambling addicted players are able to spend even all their bank account and going over, for the sake of "win" finding the reward so much followed. I didn't read anywhere on this game "play with responsability" "Put a limit on your use of the credit card when you attempt a gamble at the mystic forge/ BLC" nor "ask an adult before if you're allowed to gamble opening a wintersday chest".
Guess why now

Arquenya, on 23 December 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I guess people rather express the value in the emotional satisfaction they get from whatever they invest/get from the RNG stuff.

I may have used like 70 keys (all drops (which were way higher at the start) and rewards) but never got anything worthwhile from them. That's why I would never ever even consider buying keys, for example. The investment/reward ratio is far off, for me. I know I would have spend more cash on the shop if I would have been able to just buy whatever I wanted.

Yep. The psychological satisfaction is the core of the gambler addiction. Doesn't matter if you get cash or a pocket of cigarettes when you cashout, gamblers will play it daily regardless of it.
Some casinos (pachin ko casinos) in tokyo allow (most force it until a minimal high value is reached) the customer to pick some gifts as reward instead of cash, except if the value is justified, then are invited to go to a cashier outside (not so safe to be honest but it's an other story lol)

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[AKGeo]

Casino games are not accessible to minors (though minors still play them) just like shooting games are M for Mature/18+. Why don't you bitch about Black Ops 2 encouraging kids to go out shooting people, the same way you're making a case for Guild Wars 2 enticing children to go out and gamble?

Plain english: no payout = no casino. You can't sue a casino game because a kid circumvented their age verification, just like you can't sue Arenanet for offering RNG rewards in a game full of RNG rewards that offer no payout.

As for emotional returns...that's so highly subjective that it's not even worth going into. You can't quantify emotional returns like you can money. You put X dollars in, you get X dollars out. That's quantifiable. There's no hard-set value you can place on emotions. Not to mention it's easy to fake and exaggerate emotional damage. Which is the biggest issue facing our litigious society today.

This whole discussion is retarded. Keeping it on topic: the exotic tonics that are selling for XYZ in-game gold are only valued at XYZ in-game gold because that's what players are willing to pay for them. There will always be players who exploited/bought gems for gold or 25/8'd their way to massive in-game wealth and will buy up anything with any sort of exclusivity simply to hoard it and drive prices up to make a further profit. That's how the markets work, in any system. Healthy? Probably not. Against TOS? If you exploited. Unforgivable? Nope. If you want riches, you earn them yourself the same way they did. If you can not/will not, then you don't get the rewards that they do. You don't see me bitching about not owning my own island, because I didn't work for it or luck out enough to get it. If I wanted that private island so badly, I'd find a way to get it. If that way is illegal, then I'd better be prepared to face the consequences if caught.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

You got the point, probably not reading yourself. A game is marked M for Mature 18+ for this reason. This is the line of demarcation where an adult is responsible of minors to not touch the product. GW2 is not M 18+..
As explained talking about japanese casinos, the reward per se doesn't matter, you can get an anime toy or chocolate as cashout until you reach a particular amount. Still pachin ko are not allowed to minors. Tell me why, the cashout is a toy, isn't it.
As i said yet, you have a quite confused idea of how casinos are categorized as casinos and what is gamble. No offense.
The topic is accordingly to the tonic thread, toymaker tonic is a pure gamble win, not a simple result of mix 4 tonics. Even the base tonics have a chance to gamble all your mats got during the event still not getting any. Ending up using the TP buying more mats. Until you have gold for it..
Not so many tonics are ingame for gold from a merchant. Much less festivity ones.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[AKGeo]

And GW2 is not a gambling game, either, chief.

There's really only one thing I've found in-game that even closely resembles a casino: the cow launcher. That one I'll admit needs to be eliminated. 50 silver to bet on where a cow is going to land?

The rest of it is highly questionable as "casino" material. Seriously.

You're the one who is confused about what a casino is.

Casino: Noun. A public room or place where gambling games are played.

Gambling: Verb: Playing games of chance for money.

This is where your argument falls on its face. There is no payout, no chance for money. Casino does not apply, and it does not SIMULATE a casino either, because there is no real-world parallel that this game can teach kids about where they'd be introduced to gambling. I don't see gambling houses out there with locked boxes and keys you need to buy. I don't see gambling houses with magical fountains with genies inside that you give items to and he gives you one of random arbitrary value, either.

[Lucas Ashrock]

So, why pachin ko i was talking about gives you an anime toy or chocolate, not allowing minors to play. I doubt i don't know what i'm talking about , expecially about gambling and regulations
A gambling game is a game where an aleatory system (with odds against the player who must keep repeating or instead, win at first attempt, pure random) of chance of win a reward, regardless of what the reward is, cash or something else, is involved and cash is used to attempt. BLC, consortium chest, wintersday chest, toymaker tonic are aleatory, you can attempt even 1000 times not even getting one expected reward. Like a slot machine where you can push down the level 1000 times not winning 1 single cent.
Or some chocolate
Bro, no offense, you're not a lawyer, nor a judge. Leave this discussion (as you wrote) where it belongs.
If you're interested to sue Arenanet, contact a lawyer, and don't forget, depends on your country regulations and which judge is on the case, to win. I just gave you an input and well, have a high probability to win.
And yes, we can get rid of this greedy immoral company ( or just force them to give us a better game without gamble or RNG)

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[AKGeo]

And you're a lawyer? I don't think so.

Your argument can be used against any game that's ever existed that gives random rewards to different players who do the same things in the game. And that's been going on for YEARS, countless games in existence today which do this. None of which are being shut down and prosecuted for "gambling". Even GAMBLING games which have lenient age verification systems which are easily bypassed are allowed to stay operational.

The only gambling venues that are overseen by gambling commissions in the US of A (where Arenanet is based, not Japan, so your Japanese gambling laws are moot and have no basis in this discussion) are those which offer real payouts of cash to winners. Real casinos. Online and brick-and-mortar.

No, I'm not a lawyer, and neither are you in the court system which you're advocating a class action suit.

[Lucas Ashrock]

You don't think so? You know me maybe?

Which mmo you remember where gambling (as described with similarities on that game) was/is online, allowed to minors, using cash for ingame currency and begin the gamble, to compare?
The check of age verification is senseless, you keep mentioning games marked as 18+. This game isn't

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[AKGeo]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

You don't think so? You know me maybe?
Which mmo you remember where gambling (as described with similarities on that game) was/is online, allowed to minors, using cash for ingame currency and begin the gamble, to compare?
The check of age verification is senseless, you keep mentioning games marked as 18+. This game isn't

http://maplestory.ne...otions/hot-buys

No, it's not, so the rules are less lenient. Since the game passed muster with the ESRB to not be 18+, then I'd say that's evidence enough to claim that there's no casino action going on here. I'm pretty sure the ESRB has more authority than someone on a forum talking out his ass.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 09:12 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

http://maplestory.ne...otions/hot-buys

No, it's not, so the rules are less lenient. Since the game passed muster with the ESRB to not be 18+, then I'd say that's evidence enough to claim that there's no casino action going on here. I'm pretty sure the ESRB has more authority than someone on a forum talking out his ass.

Nexon huh? (i wonder if i need to post more now hehe )

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[AKGeo]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

Nexon huh? (i wonder if i need to post more now hehe )

Just one more post: "I was wrong."

Why did you take my reply with evidence to my point and turn it around to make yourself seem like the victor? You were wrong. Precedent has been set. It has passed legal muster. It is not gambling, be it available to minors or not, be it allowing in-game goods purchased with real currency or not. Since there is no monetary payout, it is not gambling. Gambling is seen as a potentially self-sustaining system where a payout of the same currency used to enter the game can continue the process. If everyone lost all the time, then eventually the casino wouldn't have any business. So they pay out on occasion so people keep coming...either earning a little bit so they can continue playing, or enticing others to join in.

With Guild Wars 2's gem shop, you cannot buy an item with gems that will give you a voucher that you can take to a bank where they will cash it out for you. None of the RNG items even simulates a casino by giving a sum of gems as a potential reward. Yes, you can get a key. But you can't use that key for anything other than opening another box. You can't buy a key, open a box, get 1000 gems allowing you to buy a costume, or a bunch more keys, allowing you a chance at another sum of gems.

Gambling you can put money in, get money back, gamble some more for more money. Self-sustaining with luck. Profitable with luck and skill. Massive losses with the lack of both.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

ME wrong

Until you will think gamble is just money for money, i'm just wasting my time talking with you.
(curious how you evade to answer about pachin ko and chocolate/anime as reward Just so you know, if you win a high value, you get cash or all their chocolate lol)

Not even giving you a wikipedia link

http://en.wikipedia...._.22gambling.22

will help you to get it. Amen, i got yet sheeps cannot drive a car

p.s. just so you know they passed the esrb not because of the gamble ingame, but it's an other story.
Funnily  you mentioned a Nexon game (i hope you know about Nexon and Ncsoft relationship)

The core and what is immoral, if you get lost, is the gamble system used ingame to get something with an aleatory loot with odds highly against the gamer, and minors learning how gamble works, and how to be addicted to win something attempting thousand times , using cash too. This is a videogame, a precursor or a toymaker tonic must be available to a minor at his 3rd attempt. Not his 4000th.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[AKGeo]

Are you kidding me..you're using a colloquial definition for gambling as "taking a chance" at something? So I guess that 15 year old going up to a girl he likes and asking her out, TAKING A GAMBLE, is breaking the law?

The point of discussion is setting boundaries. You went beyond those boundaries by bringing colloquial uses into the discussion.

And now you're hinting at a conspiracy theory or some kind of back-room deal to pass esrb. If EA Games cannot pass ESRB muster, I doubt that NCSoft/Arenanet or even Nexon can do the same.

I ignored your japanese casino explanation because it doesn't matter. It has no bearing on anything. NCSoft/Arenanet are US-based companies. The most you can do to apply Japanese law to this game is to ban the game in Japan. They didn't do that, either, did they?

Precursors do not have to be made available to a minor at his third attempt. Are you kidding me? Are you seriously joking right now? You're saying that these items being rare as they are is unfair to players. And this specific tonic is arbitrarily limited in its amount of chances to win being 1. You get ONE SHOT. There is no way of obtaining the account-bound tonics required to forge to get this exotic tonic. Therefore, gambling is a non-issue. You can play the game and earn the money required to buy that tonic without gambling.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that they only way to be "fair" is to give everybody everything without the need for time or work investment. That's just stupid. And teaching kids that you buy something with an X chance at something arbitrarily valuable (I'm sorry, but again it's not Anet's fault that an exotic sellable festival reward immediately shoots to 60+ gold) is not teaching them how to gamble. Kids already know about gambling. If they can play a game, they know a little bit about chances at higher rewards for the same actions. Hell, playing Mario taught me that with greater risk comes greater rewards, but chance of abysmal failure. Jumping for that higher coin/powerup with a chance at falling into the pit was a gamble, with the aleatory reward of getting that higher coin/powerup and the pride I got by achieving it.

And if you go on about emotional rewards...well then I'll just counter it by saying there's an emotional investment. When you're 7 years old and at the moment getting that higher powerup is everything in the world to you, failing is almost heartbreaking. You put in a significant emotional investment, and you either get it, or you don't. And it is luck...there's skill, too, but luck is indeed involved. The only difference is that luck is programmed into this game, required because of the relative complexity of this game. If everything in the game was completely predictable, it wouldn't last a week before people moved on. Why? Because people like taking those chances. The excitement of "hrm, what will I get this time?" is enjoyable.

And you shouldn't prosecute a company for pandering to that, simply because a very small minority of players MIGHT have a lack of self-control and responsibility, and lose their asses trying to get that digital golden ring. What people do with their money and time is their responsibility, not Arenanet's, and simply offering a game of chance is not the same as forcing gambling addicts to give in to their lack of self control.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Arquenya]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Are you kidding me..you're using a colloquial definition for gambling as "taking a chance" at something? So I guess that 15 year old going up to a girl he likes and asking her out, TAKING A GAMBLE, is breaking the law?

I think I'd use the word "gambling" only if there's money involved. You don't always have to be able to get money from it, it can also be buying lottery tickets to win a car or a fridge. Or a virtual item for that matter.

[Trei]

The key difference here regarding actual gambling is this -

When you lose an actual gambling as per its most common and legally accepted definition, you do not get anything back.
No consolation prize, no second chance, nothing.
If you bet $1 and you lost the bet, you lose that $1, nothing more and nothing less.
That's wagering.

GW2's chests? They are random, yes, with a chance to contain certain items of greatly differing subjective value.
But you will always, always get something from them.
It's not like you paid XX gems for the key to the chest and get nothing in return.

It's a lucky draw.
Whatever the results of the draw, the important thing remains that you have already purchased and received whatever product or service that granted you that chance to draw in the first place.

I am pretty sure no one in their right mind would... say buy a refrigerator for the sole purpose of getting that random lucky chance to win a Chevrolet.
So I do not see why any person capable of rational thought would open chests for anything other than boosters and tonics.

You lost nothing more than a mere opportunity when you "lose" the draw.
That's not gambling.

Edited by Trei, 24 December 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Soki]

Trei, on 24 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

The key difference here regarding actual gambling is this -

When you lose an actual gambling as per its most common and legally accepted definition, you do not get anything back.
No consolation prize, no second chance, nothing.
If you bet $1 and you lost the bet, you lose that $1, nothing more and nothing less.
That's wagering.

GW2's chests? They are random, yes, with a chance to contain certain items of greatly differing subjective value.
But you will always, always get something from them.
It's not like you paid XX gems for the key to the chest and get nothing in return.

It's a lucky draw.
Whatever the results of the draw, the important thing remains that you have already purchased and received whatever product or service that granted you that chance to draw in the first place.

I am pretty sure no one in their right mind would... say buy a refrigerator for the sole purpose of getting that random lucky chance to win a Chevrolet.
So I do not see why any person capable of rational thought would open chests for anything other than boosters and tonics.

You lost nothing more than a mere opportunity when you "lose" the draw.
That's not gambling.

Sure is 'semantics' in here.

What you get from a chest may as well be "nothing". It's like losing a bet and being given a consolation prize of a mint.

Edited by Soki, 24 December 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Trei]

Soki, on 24 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Sure is 'semantics' in here.

What you get from a chest may as well be "nothing". It's like losing a bet and being given a consolation prize of a mint.

So would you actually buy a refrigerator just because it gives you a lucky draw chance to win a car, then claim you get nothing when you lose because you never wanted the refrigerator?

On one side we have individuals claiming boosters and repair canisters etc are P2W, and on the other we have this claim that they are "nothing".



Their worth may be subjective according to each of us, but they do have an objective value.
They are not "nothing".

[Arquenya]

Trei, on 24 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

The key difference here regarding actual gambling is this -

When you lose an actual gambling as per its most common and legally accepted definition, you do not get anything back.
No consolation prize, no second chance, nothing.
If you bet $1 and you lost the bet, you lose that $1, nothing more and nothing less.
That's wagering.

GW2's chests? They are random, yes, with a chance to contain certain items of greatly differing subjective value.
But you will always, always get something from them.
It's not like you paid XX gems for the key to the chest and get nothing in return.

So .. by your definition, if you go to the casino and if every time you lose they give you a pat on your back and a sugar cube, cookie, peppermint or piece of chocolate, isn't it gambling anymore?

Edited by Arquenya, 24 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[davadude]

I think the tonics themselves are great and a fun feature, I just wish the storage was better integrated.  They take up too much space.  If every tonic (and whilst we're at it, many crafting items and extra legendary T6s) get their bank slots, it would be a grand improvement and remove my only dislike for them.

TL;DR Bank Overhaul PLZ.

[Trei]

Arquenya, on 24 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

So .. if you go to the casino and if every time you lose they give you a pat on your back and a sugar cube, cookie, peppermint or piece of chocolate, isn't it gambling anymore?

They do?
Do you go to casinos for pats and sugarcubes, cookies, mints and chocolates?

You need to read the rest of my post for the right context.

Edited by Trei, 24 December 2012 - 04:44 PM.