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A call for civility

boarderlands jumping puzzle civility

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#1 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

I know there are a lot of players out there that enjoy the competition of world vs world.  I occasionally enjoy it as well, however, the rewards I generally get on my main (a guardian) are few.  Therefore I, like many other people, supplement the badge of honor rewards with rewards from the jumping puzzle in the boarderlands.  Often times people, like me, without the time to invest in protracted world vs world battles every day will visit the jumping puzzle to get a few quick badges.  We all want legendary weapons, after all.

Now perhaps I've just been lucky with the timing but generally I can do the puzzle with no one trying to kill me.  I've seen plenty of enemy players and we have always left each other alone.  The fact of the matter is that most people doing the jumping puzzle are there for all of ten minutes and have zero impact on the various factions standing in the battle at large.  But despite this I've recently run into some people who feel it is fun to camp there and kill the one or two enemy players that are there for no other reason than to collect badges and move on with their lives.  I've also heard plenty of reports of similar behavior from guildmates and others.

I am here today to make a general call for civility in all boarderlands, no matter the matchup:  please stop camping the jumping puzzle or attacking enemy players there and making it hard for those pressed for time or with a general dislike of WvW to still have fun.  I understand it may be hard to differentiate between people looking to back-cap and people headed to the jumping puzzle, but at the very least once you are in the jumping puzzle there should be a non-aggression pact.  It is not funny for you to gank someone doing a jumping puzzle, it's cowardly to go somewhere where many people travel alone with no intention of fighting in WvW to get cheap kills.  This goes double for people that gank while their world is ahead.  Don't come to the jumping puzzle to get cheap kills if you can't cut it on the front lines of the real battle.

I and many players like me would greatly appreciate any players who feel the same way and see people on their server attacking non-aggressive players from another server while they attempt to do the puzzle to call those players out.  Tell them it's not cool to gank players like that, tell them if they want to fight they should go participate in WvW and to not ruin other players fun.  Other people on other servers will do the same for you.  If you see enemy players around, give them a wide berth, don't make them nervous or use spells near them that can throw off their jumps.  Leave them alone and both of you can make it through safely.  Together I think we can work towards keeping the game fun for everyone.

Lets all pledge to keep the fighting in the places it will actually impact the WvW battle.  Lets all agree that players who simply wish to complete a jumping puzzle should be left alone.  Lets all work towards civility in the boarderlands so that all players can continue to have fun and make progress in the game, regardless of whether they like to fight in WvW or not.

Please post any ideas you have to make the jumping area safer for everyone or to just affirm your pledge towards a boarderlands jumping puzzle truce.  Maybe if enough people pledge, others will see that and stop attacking players just trying to get a few badges.  Thanks for reading!

#2 Antithesis

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

I agree it is cheap. I always let others alone when in jp.

On our server SOS constantly camps jp like it is some kind of strategic position
to keep others from getting badges or seige ( lol like you cant just go buy it ).

It takes all kinds I guess ....

#3 GrandmaFunk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Lets all pledge to keep the fighting in the places it will actually impact the WvW battle.

Allowing enemy players to complete the puzzles gives them badges, which can be turned into siege weaponry, which does have an impact on the WvW battle.

Preventing enemies from gaining resources that can be used against your team in battle is perfectly legitimate.

#4 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostGrandmaFunk, on 19 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Allowing enemy players to complete the puzzles gives them badges, which can be turned into siege weaponry, which does have an impact on the WvW battle.

Preventing enemies from gaining resources that can be used against your team in battle is perfectly legitimate.

The vast majority of people doing the jumping puzzle are there to collect badges for legendary weapons. You can buy siege weapons for much cheaper anyway.  Pretending that people would actually spend badges on siege weapons and not on a legendary is an excuse to validate ganking one to two people attempting to complete the jumping puzzle because it's easier for you than actually fighting in a real battle.  Besides, if you let everyone do it, you'll all have the same resource anyway so there is no actual loss.

Honestly, you are telling me that one or two people trickling in to do the jumping puzzle are really there to turn the tide of battle?  Give me a break.

#5 GrandmaFunk

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:50 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Pretending that people would actually spend badges on siege weapons and not on a legendary is an excuse to validate ganking one to two people attempting to complete the jumping puzzle because it's easier for you than actually fighting in a real battle.

Well 100% of my badges are going towards sieges so there's no pretending involved, not everyone is out to get legendaries. It's generally a good idea to avoid terms like "vast majority" because you do not speak for everyone and you have no actual facts to back up your made up statistics.

I don't think camping the JPs to get kills is actually worth it, those player would better serve the war effort by being out in the field.

However, if a player happens to be doing a JP and encounters enemy players, there's absolutely nothing "uncivil" about trying to take them out. That's what the game mode is about, opposing the enemy any way you can.

#6 Antithesis

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

View PostGrandmaFunk, on 19 December 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Well 100% of my badges are going towards sieges so there's no pretending involved, not everyone is out to get legendaries. It's generally a good idea to avoid terms like "vast majority" because you do not speak for everyone and you have no actual facts to back up your made up statistics.

I don't think camping the JPs to get kills is actually worth it, those player would better serve the war effort by being out in the field.

However, if a player happens to be doing a JP and encounters enemy players, there's absolutely nothing "uncivil" about trying to take them out. That's what the game mode is about, opposing the enemy any way you can.

Let me tell you that YOU are a definite minority if you are using badges for siege .... Especially when you could just stop for one second to gather a plant and sell it to buy seige.

If you feel good about being in a game that pits skill of player vs player and you choose to be backstabber/bushwacker type great for you.
Camp jp. The WvWvW thanks you for your dedication.

#7 Noosfer

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:08 PM

In my opinion, you should blame Anet for adding a PvE part within the WvW battleground. Both sides of the game would be happy if the puzzle is moved anywhere else.

You cannot blame any player for killing you in a battlefield. Simply being there can affect the overall WvW if there are queues.

#8 MrZero

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

I'm not going to run off and help people siege the jumping puzzle but, if they like to fight in there oh well. Why don't you get some other people that want to get a legendary to go help you?

I think people ask for truces because they are afraid to fight other players. It sucks, you might actually like PvP.

#9 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

A nice thought but it's never going to happen. Jump to a low tier server, you'll have better luck their than trying to get WvWer out of a LEGITIMATE target. The chests drop other things besides badges. IN FACT, when a match is all but lost, you'd be surprised how many people flock to the JP to stock up on blueprints for the coming week.

It's a WvW objective and therefore can and does require WvW participation to complete.

Again, nice thought and all, but it ain't happening.

#10 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

No. I shall kill you for you are an invader.

#11 Silent The Legend

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

Or maybe Anet should remove the Jumping Puzzles alltogether from a freaking PvP battleground.

#12 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View PostNoosfer, on 19 December 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

In my opinion, you should blame Anet for adding a PvE part within the WvW battleground. Both sides of the game would be happy if the puzzle is moved anywhere else.

You cannot blame any player for killing you in a battlefield. Simply being there can affect the overall WvW if there are queues.

View Postraspberry jam, on 19 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

No. I shall kill you for you are an invader.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes the game less fun for people.  Yes, I agree it was a little lame to make some classes suck at WvW or to make any actual battle there take hours on end and then force a PvP requirement for legendaries.  But blaming the system only takes you so far, why not try to change it?

The attitude that a couple people spending about 10-15 minutes tops to get a few badges is going to somehow swing a battle is just so far beyond believable that I have a hard time taking you seriously and not as a troll post.  How is killing people who will only be there for a few minutes and are traveling alone to a place completely unrelated to any battle helping your side win the world at all?  Answer: it's really not, you are a coward trying to get cheap kills and aren't helping your team win no matter how much you try to spin it.

View PostSilent The Legend, on 19 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Or maybe Anet should remove the Jumping Puzzles alltogether from a freaking PvP battleground.

As long as they also remove the badge of honor requirement for legendaries, I'd be ok with this.

Edited by Alent, 19 December 2012 - 05:55 PM.


#13 Millimidget

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

But despite this I've recently run into some people who feel it is fun to camp there and kill the one or two enemy players that are there for no other reason than to collect badges and move on with their lives.
Welcome to MMOs, where entire classes (stealth) are tailored for the type of people you describe, and then protected from on high because nine out of ten times that(those) class(es) is(are) played by the devs.

View PostSilent The Legend, on 19 December 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Or maybe Anet should remove the Jumping Puzzles alltogether from a freaking PvP battleground.
That would make too much sense, especially given that players in the jumping puzzle count towards population caps.

#14 Azilyi

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

Anet put the traps/boulders/arena in the jumping puzzle because it was designed to be fought in.

That's not even negotiable.  If you hold the high ground, you use it.  Anything else is an affront to the blood god (Khorne).

Besides - you're farming JP for legendaries.
Why shouldnt I be allowed to farm you for mine? :)

#15 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostAzilyi, on 19 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Anet put the traps/boulders/arena in the jumping puzzle because it was designed to be fought in.

That's not even negotiable.  If you hold the high ground, you use it.  Anything else is an affront to the blood god (Khorne).

Besides - you're farming JP for legendaries.
Why shouldnt I be allowed to farm you for mine? :)

No one is stopping you from farming the JP or fighting in WvW, why can't we all farm the JP and keep the people that want to play WvW actually going for useful objectives instead of cowardly ganking?

Edited by unraveled, 19 December 2012 - 07:39 PM.
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#16 Vihar

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

I went into a jumping puzzle for the first time two days ago.

  It completely sucked, because I hate jumping puzzles.

  The only good thing was chasing down the JQ guy and killing him. That was pretty fun.

  Jumping puzzles are fair game. If I could, I would kill EVERYONE in them.

   This is a PVP map.

  Plenty of PVE jumping puzzles to do.

#17 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes the game less fun for people.  Yes, I agree it was a little lame to make some classes suck at WvW or to make any actual battle there take hours on end and then force a PvP requirement for legendaries.  But blaming the system only takes you so far, why not try to change it?

The attitude that a couple people spending about 10-15 minutes tops to get a few badges is going to somehow swing a battle is just so far beyond believable that I have a hard time taking you seriously and not as a troll post.  How is killing people who will only be there for a few minutes and are traveling alone to a place completely unrelated to any battle helping your side win the world at all?  Answer: it's really not, you are a coward trying to get cheap kills and aren't helping your team win no matter how much you try to spin it.
Look dude, they are invading my server. Should I just stand there and take it just because they happen to want to do my jumping puzzle? Besides, it's easy kills. So why should I not do it? Exactly. There's no reason.

Yeah yeah I know "btu withot juping puzel i cant get my legegendary ;_; " well too bad, you should have thought about that before you invaded my world.

#18 Humungous

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

No way, JP fights are a blast! I go to the JP specifically for the fights. I attack every red I see in there. It's a great arena.

I'm not griefing or camping. It's not like I'd stick around at the end just to gank. I go in there with one other person (my bro), and play it like a PvP jumping puzzle, which it is!

Last night, we got to the end, and ~8 TC were holding it, so we were wiped. Oh well! It was a blast battling our way there, and maybe next time, we'll have enough to take it from them :)

#19 MrZero

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

Remove the Jumping puzzles. Great idea, people need less reason to wvw. :huh:

You know, during the holiday events I have to run around and do stupid ass pve shit to get my monthlies. Don't forget the fractuals. I have to do those now if I want a monthly completion. Doing dungeons make me want to take a newborn kitten and smash it's face into a brick wall until there is nothing left of it's cranium. "Well don't do it." you say. Well, I need the *ing karma and shit so I can get gear that doesn't look like shit and has the stats I need for my build. If I wanted to grind dungeons, I would still be playing WoW.

It's almost like they are trying to encourage me to play pve and be social.

Wait, you don't think that maybe they are trying to encourage you to play wvw do you? Maybe, you might like it. If you don't then give up on your legendary, I did. I have no desire to do all that endless farming of scripted AI just to get it. In fact, as a wvw player, I have to do more shit in an area of the game that I hate than you do. You need what, 500 badges to get the legendary? EVERYTHING else is from PvE.

I get it, the overwhelming majority of people playing the game are pve centered. Why do the pve players insist on adjusting wvw to their needs. The wvw players have no problem with the way the jumping puzzles are in wvw.

In short; Adapt and overcome or give up.

#20 moomooo1

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:42 PM

I'll concede it's pretty silly for all legendaries to require 500 badges. WvWer's don't like PvE-er's coming in and wasting their time, and PvE-er's have little interest being there in the first place.

But that's just how it is. Often EB JP is tackled by guilds, solely for donations on siege plans. Where do these siege plans go? To the fighting effort. You can't really fault people, if by design, denying invaders access to JP, will, however inadvertantly, benefit your server. That's a design problem, not a player problem.

#21 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 19 December 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Look dude, they are invading my server. Should I just stand there and take it just because they happen to want to do my jumping puzzle? Besides, it's easy kills. So why should I not do it? Exactly. There's no reason.

Yeah yeah I know "btu withot juping puzel i cant get my legegendary ;_; " well too bad, you should have thought about that before you invaded my world.

I refuse to believe the inanity here is representative of the actual player base.  Why should you not do it?  Because it doesn't advance any WvW objectives, because it is common courtesy to allow other players to have fun while playing, because it gives more casual players a headache when you do, because there is no honor is ganking a single player who won't be on the server longer than 10 or so minutes to get a few badges?  I have yet to see any actual arguments against a non-aggressive stance in the boarderlands jumping puzzle, but it appears I have found the type of people that perpetrate this kind of cowardly attitude of ganking single players while rationalizing it to themselves so that they feel good.

I know from personal experience and interactions that people are would like a way to earn badges of honor that doesn't involve only WvW.  WvW can be very frustrating for people.  What I'm proposing is trying to remove a little bit of frustration in a low impact manner.  It's a simple suggestion to work as a stopgap until ANet makes more intelligent changes on badges of honor.  Which brings me to the other idea I've had: grant badges as reward for sPvP (which people enjoy as much or more than WvW with its culling issues), which is a something I plan to float in the official forums soon.  I am sorry and a little disappointed that the people here seem too concerned with themselves to extend some courtesy to other players of the game and instead feel like they have to insult everyone who does not agree with them...

#22 MrZero

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

View Postmoomooo1, on 19 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

That's a design problem, not a player problem.

I dunno man, I think maybe they are trying to get people to go into different aspects of the game and not necessarily a design problem.

#23 AKGeo

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

The vast majority of people doing the jumping puzzle are there to collect badges for legendary weapons. You can buy siege weapons for much cheaper anyway.  Pretending that people would actually spend badges on siege weapons and not on a legendary is an excuse to validate ganking one to two people attempting to complete the jumping puzzle because it's easier for you than actually fighting in a real battle.  Besides, if you let everyone do it, you'll all have the same resource anyway so there is no actual loss.

Honestly, you are telling me that one or two people trickling in to do the jumping puzzle are really there to turn the tide of battle?  Give me a break.

You know this for a fact? It's completely unreasonable that a sudden gain of 30 badges can't immediately be used to buy a catapult plans to use to defend a tower? What about the actual plans you get from the chest, as well?

I hereby call for rationality, where people like yourself stop speaking for "the majority". You're there to get badges for legendaries. Others are there to get the items from the chest..the badges are supplementary. Others are there to get the plans and badges to help defend their server, and it's not unreasonable to assume the possibility of any of the three being the motivation behind an enemy team member doing the jumping puzzle as well.

If you're in a WvW map and you get ganked...that's part of the game. Either fight back and get your rewards, or learn to deal with being ganked and move on. Call for help. Get some guildies in there to fight with you. Get a thief to shadow refuge you until you get into the puzzle, then just jump faster than they can. They'll be watching the entrance anyway, so if you get to the first few platforms before the stealth wears off, you're golden.

#24 MrZero

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

I refuse to believe the inanity here is representative of the actual player base.  Why should you not do it?  Because it doesn't advance any WvW objectives, because it is common courtesy to allow other players to have fun while playing, because it gives more casual players a headache when you do, because there is no honor is ganking a single player who won't be on the server longer than 10 or so minutes to get a few badges?  I have yet to see any actual arguments against a non-aggressive stance in the boarderlands jumping puzzle, but it appears I have found the type of people that perpetrate this kind of cowardly attitude of ganking single players while rationalizing it to themselves so that they feel good.

I know from personal experience and interactions that people are would like a way to earn badges of honor that doesn't involve only WvW.  WvW can be very frustrating for people.  What I'm proposing is trying to remove a little bit of frustration in a low impact manner.  It's a simple suggestion to work as a stopgap until ANet makes more intelligent changes on badges of honor.  Which brings me to the other idea I've had: grant badges as reward for sPvP (which people enjoy as much or more than WvW with its culling issues), which is a something I plan to float in the official forums soon.  I am sorry and a little disappointed that the people here seem too concerned with themselves to extend some courtesy to other players of the game and instead feel like they have to insult everyone who does not agree with them...

I have yet to see any arguments for a non-aggressive stance. Well, with the exception of, "because I want badges for my legendary." See my above post, I can't get a legendary either without and huge amount of frustration. You know what else I hate? CRAFTING. They should remove that from the game because I hate doing that tedious shit.

My personal feeling is that camping the jumping puzzle is half a step spawn camping. When people yammer in map or team chat about how server XXX is about to take over the JP, I just chuckle to myself and keep on keeping on. That being said, you seem to be a little too concerned with yourself and seem to feel the need to insult the people who are not agreeing with you.

There are aspects of this game that we ALL hate doing. We can all either power through and get the parts we hate done or move on. Posting on forums about these things and then getting irate when people don't agree with you is not constructive at all.

#25 Alent

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostMrZero, on 19 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I have yet to see any arguments for a non-aggressive stance. Well, with the exception of, "because I want badges for my legendary." See my above post, I can't get a legendary either without and huge amount of frustration. You know what else I hate? CRAFTING. They should remove that from the game because I hate doing that tedious shit.

Allow me to reiterate then: a non-aggressive stance in the JP will reduce frustration in this aspect of the game with minimal impact on the WvW battle.  I can't fix every frustrating thing in the game, but does that mean we shouldn't try to make things a little easier on people?

View PostMrZero, on 19 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

My personal feeling is that camping the jumping puzzle is half a step spawn camping. When people yammer in map or team chat about how server XXX is about to take over the JP, I just chuckle to myself and keep on keeping on. That being said, you seem to be a little too concerned with yourself and seem to feel the need to insult the people who are not agreeing with you.

There are aspects of this game that we ALL hate doing. We can all either power through and get the parts we hate done or move on. Posting on forums about these things and then getting irate when people don't agree with you is not constructive at all.

I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I'm only concerned about myself, I've tried to indicate that I've only really posted this after talking to guildies and others about it.  I have played WvW, and while I don't find it particularly enjoyable due to a variety of reasons (culling, etc), I enjoy grouping with a few of my guildies that like playing it.  If you truly feel there are aspects that we all hate doing, why not work to change those things?  Others may feel the same way about it and by working to change them they would benefit as well.  What I'm suggesting isn't world shaking, and I know it's been suggested before.  Its not whining, it's a simple suggestion to make the game a little less frustrating for everyone.  If you see a large group going to camp the JP in the boarderlands, by all means fight them off.  But one person trying to complete the puzzle; how are they a threat, whats the point in ganking them when they will be gone in a minute if you just leave them alone?  I feel like thats pretty reasonable.

#26 Gilles VI

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

WvW is partly PvP, so I see no problem in killing enemy players.
If people ignore me in a jumping puzzle, and I don't feel like fighting we don't fight.

But there is nothing uncivil about attacking enemies in PvP.

#27 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

I refuse to believe the inanity here is representative of the actual player base.  Why should you not do it?  Because it doesn't advance any WvW objectives, because it is common courtesy to allow other players to have fun while playing, because it gives more casual players a headache when you do, because there is no honor is ganking a single player who won't be on the server longer than 10 or so minutes to get a few badges?  I have yet to see any actual arguments against a non-aggressive stance in the boarderlands jumping puzzle, but it appears I have found the type of people that perpetrate this kind of cowardly attitude of ganking single players while rationalizing it to themselves so that they feel good.

I know from personal experience and interactions that people are would like a way to earn badges of honor that doesn't involve only WvW.  WvW can be very frustrating for people.  What I'm proposing is trying to remove a little bit of frustration in a low impact manner.  It's a simple suggestion to work as a stopgap until ANet makes more intelligent changes on badges of honor.  Which brings me to the other idea I've had: grant badges as reward for sPvP (which people enjoy as much or more than WvW with its culling issues), which is a something I plan to float in the official forums soon.  I am sorry and a little disappointed that the people here seem too concerned with themselves to extend some courtesy to other players of the game and instead feel like they have to insult everyone who does not agree with them...
Ooooh right, that's how it starts, but why should I trust enemies and invaders? First it's "dont kill mi wen i jump puzle plis =^^=?", and before you know it it's, let's take turns holding the castle because there is a mystic forge in there.

lol @ allowing other players to have fun. If you don't think that getting killed is fun maybe you shouldn't have invaded my server eh? Yeah.

#28 Killminusnine

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

If you're red then you're dead.  Welcome to PvP I guess.

To an extent, the JP does have strategic value.  That is especially true when the winning server can really camp it and offer portals to the end towards the end of a match.  The amount of siege you can farm is amazing and allows you to push more aggressively in the next weeks match.  Really hardcore WvW'ers are often flat broke so free siege is bueno.

#29 moomooo1

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

I think rather than trying to change the majority of people, you should seek to change yourself or those interested in getting badges with minimal effort?

I think you would garner more success in seeking out ways and providing tips on how to get badges of honor with minimal PvP contact. Particularly, waiting on the JP to be in the hands of your server. It happens eventually, and when it does, profit!

You are speaking to players who are there to PvP, that is to kill other people. Your suggestion is almost blasphemy, and I'm inclined to agree that since it's PvP, it should really be about the PvP. No matter how silly the requirement of your legendary, think of it as one of the more annoying obstacles in obtaining it. Or blame Arenanet, up to you.

#30 MartinFirestorm

MartinFirestorm

    Fahrar Cub

  • New Members
  • 12 posts
  • Guild Tag:[PD]
  • Server:Borlis Pass

Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:39 PM

OP, you're in a pvp zone. Pve elements notwithstandiung, what do you expect? This is just silly. Don't even go there if you can't stand someone jumping you, or better yet go there to do your jumping puzzle, and kick some ass if anyone attacks you.




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