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A call for civility

boarderlands jumping puzzle civility

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#61 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:44 AM

LOL let's not pretend that farming JP for kills on inexperienced PVE players isn't a cheap tactic. It plainly is. It's the virtual equivalent of wolves preying on sheep.

But this is a PVP zone. There's an unwritten but widely understood warning that entering the zone and leaving the boundaries of your safe area may lead to character death.

#62 Soki

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:51 AM

People have started trying to kill me when I stated camping them. A couple have succeeded, because I'm just on a low-level guardian for the skillset for knocking people down.
I always run back - but it's enoguh time for that person to complete the puzzle.

Just kill the person camping you. If it's a lot of people, get others to help who also want to do the jump puzzle.

Edited by Soki, 21 December 2012 - 02:52 AM.


#63 Alaroxr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:59 AM

"The majority of people in the jumping puzzle don't do it for siege, just to get a Legendary".

Show me the polls and statistics instead of making things up to support your opinion. It's basically an insult to anyone reading your post.

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 21 December 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

LOL let's not pretend that farming JP for kills on inexperienced PVE players isn't a cheap tactic. It plainly is. It's the virtual equivalent of wolves preying on sheep.

It's more like the sheep wearing neon signs saying "come kill me please" while walking into the wolf's territory in the middle of the night.

Edited by Alaroxr, 21 December 2012 - 04:59 AM.


#64 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 21 December 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

LOL let's not pretend that farming JP for kills on inexperienced PVE players isn't a cheap tactic. It plainly is. It's the virtual equivalent of wolves preying on sheep.

Preying on sheep coming into the Wolf Den to aquire Wolf Badges to get Wolf Legendary Weapons. Stupid sheep. They'd be better off banding together and fighting the Grub for badges. Sheep can handle grubs.

Seriously, sheep. Stay out of JP. It's not safe. It's not safe! Stay out!

#65 ShabbyDude

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

View PostGrandmaFunk, on 19 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Allowing enemy players to complete the puzzles gives them badges, which can be turned into siege weaponry, which does have an impact on the WvW battle.

Preventing enemies from gaining resources that can be used against your team in battle is perfectly legitimate.

This is actually funny.  The Jumping Puzzle has no effect on WvW.  The badges and schematics saves you like 50 silver usually.  It doesn not give you points nor does killing enemy players doing the jumping puzzle give you points like a TDM format.

People camp the JP to kill players not to deny them a strategic advantage.  Made up reasons are made up.

#66 Im Legion

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostShabbyDude, on 21 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

This is actually funny.  The Jumping Puzzle has no effect on WvW.  The badges and schematics saves you like 50 silver usually.  It doesn not give you points nor does killing enemy players doing the jumping puzzle give you points like a TDM format.

People camp the JP to kill players not to deny them a strategic advantage.  Made up reasons are made up.

50 silver is quite a lot, I usually don't make more than 1 or 2 gold in a day of WvW. Even if it's not significant to you, it is to a lot of people so stop belittling them.

#67 Jetjordan

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

This is a tough one.  I hate campers.  I like the moments when I wave at a red in the puz, and they wave back, and we go on to finish the puzzle.  Interactions like those are fun.  I also don't mind going through with a group and fighting other groups on our way to the end, it can be very rewarding.  I am also fully capable of doing most of the puzzle while invisible.  HOWEVER, I usually can't do the dark room while invisible and you go from that right into the pit, the most common place for griefers and campers.  If they put an invisibility spot right after the dark room it would fix the entire puzzle for people that don't want to fight imo.  I guess the griefers would move into the dark room then, but its harder to do there.

The problem with this though is that the JP is in WVW and its a PVP zone, so you really can't cry about getting ganked in PVP.  The really simple solution here would be to take the PVP requirement out of legendaries.  its the only way to fix this problem.  End of story.  They might should have made a way to obtain the legendaries for people that JUST WvW as well.  Like you get 500 badges INSTEAD of doing map completion.  

eh?

#68 Hennet

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

This thread is like the people on a PvP server in that "other" game and complaining about PvP.

#69 Killminusnine

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostShabbyDude, on 21 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

This is actually funny.  The Jumping Puzzle has no effect on WvW.  The badges and schematics saves you like 50 silver usually.  It doesn not give you points nor does killing enemy players doing the jumping puzzle give you points like a TDM format.

People camp the JP to kill players not to deny them a strategic advantage.  Made up reasons are made up.

On high tier servers at least, servers coordinate JP portals during the later stages of the matchup and amass hundreds of pieces of siege per guild.  That is strategically significant and would only be overlooked by someone who doesn't do enough WvW to understand.

#70 Alaroxr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 21 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

On high tier servers at least, servers coordinate JP portals during the later stages of the matchup and amass hundreds of pieces of siege per guild.  That is strategically significant and would only be overlooked by someone who doesn't do enough WvW to understand.

QFT

#71 RandolfRa

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

If they don't attack me or my friends first, I often let them go. Not very interesting to jump on some upscale who just wants to do the puzzle.

#72 Humungous

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 04:02 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 21 December 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

QFT

Double QF Double T!!!!

If I run all 11 of my chars (accidentally bought a few too many slots :P) through the JP on mesmer portals, I've amassed a LOT of blueprints....

#73 FriendlyFire

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:35 AM

Get rid of the jumping puzzles, reward players for playing WvW.  /thread

#74 duncanmix

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:54 AM

Legendary requires you to "master" all aspects of the game including wvw. Man up, don't whine about silly 500 badges, they should put at least 1000.

#75 Laylyn

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostAlent, on 19 December 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I know there are a lot of players out there that enjoy the competition of world vs world.  I occasionally enjoy it as well, however, the rewards I generally get on my main (a guardian) are few.  Therefore I, like many other people, supplement the badge of honor rewards with rewards from the jumping puzzle in the boarderlands.  Often times people, like me, without the time to invest in protracted world vs world battles every day will visit the jumping puzzle to get a few quick badges.  We all want legendary weapons, after all.

Now perhaps I've just been lucky with the timing but generally I can do the puzzle with no one trying to kill me.  I've seen plenty of enemy players and we have always left each other alone.  The fact of the matter is that most people doing the jumping puzzle are there for all of ten minutes and have zero impact on the various factions standing in the battle at large.  But despite this I've recently run into some people who feel it is fun to camp there and kill the one or two enemy players that are there for no other reason than to collect badges and move on with their lives.  I've also heard plenty of reports of similar behavior from guildmates and others.

I am here today to make a general call for civility in all boarderlands, no matter the matchup:  please stop camping the jumping puzzle or attacking enemy players there and making it hard for those pressed for time or with a general dislike of WvW to still have fun.  I understand it may be hard to differentiate between people looking to back-cap and people headed to the jumping puzzle, but at the very least once you are in the jumping puzzle there should be a non-aggression pact.  It is not funny for you to gank someone doing a jumping puzzle, it's cowardly to go somewhere where many people travel alone with no intention of fighting in WvW to get cheap kills.  This goes double for people that gank while their world is ahead.  Don't come to the jumping puzzle to get cheap kills if you can't cut it on the front lines of the real battle.

I and many players like me would greatly appreciate any players who feel the same way and see people on their server attacking non-aggressive players from another server while they attempt to do the puzzle to call those players out.  Tell them it's not cool to gank players like that, tell them if they want to fight they should go participate in WvW and to not ruin other players fun.  Other people on other servers will do the same for you.  If you see enemy players around, give them a wide berth, don't make them nervous or use spells near them that can throw off their jumps.  Leave them alone and both of you can make it through safely.  Together I think we can work towards keeping the game fun for everyone.

Lets all pledge to keep the fighting in the places it will actually impact the WvW battle.  Lets all agree that players who simply wish to complete a jumping puzzle should be left alone.  Lets all work towards civility in the boarderlands so that all players can continue to have fun and make progress in the game, regardless of whether they like to fight in WvW or not.

Please post any ideas you have to make the jumping area safer for everyone or to just affirm your pledge towards a boarderlands jumping puzzle truce.  Maybe if enough people pledge, others will see that and stop attacking players just trying to get a few badges.  Thanks for reading!

Take the PVE out of the zone.   That includes map crap.   The only thing these kinds of things have ever lead too is entitled dressed up whine posts like these.   I've been reading this since COX in 2005.

They don't want to pvp.  PVPers don't want them in the zone.  Why keep making the same dumb content?

That or make every dungeon a 3 way server combat with pvp and kill stealing allowed by the winning side.  Let the PVP crowd go where the PVE crowd feels we don't belong and give them a really good taste of their own medicine.

#76 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

View PostLaylyn, on 23 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Take the PVE out of the zone.   That includes map crap.   The only thing these kinds of things have ever lead too is entitled dressed up whine posts like these.   I've been reading this since COX in 2005.

They don't want to pvp.  PVPers don't want them in the zone.  Why keep making the same dumb content?

That or make every dungeon a 3 way server combat with pvp and kill stealing allowed by the winning side.  Let the PVP crowd go where the PVE crowd feels we don't belong and give them a really good taste of their own medicine.

Well... a long time ago I was forced to PvP in a game that didn't make it optional. I was a PvE guy all the way. After my initial fear, and being killed a few times and figuring out it wasn't that bad, I began to think I might even enjoy it.

Many games and several years later, I love PvP. But I never would have bothered if one game hadn't 'forced' me to PvP.

Broaden your horizons PvEers. And PvPers, let's be sure to welcome the PvEers with a nice, warm gank.

#77 MonsterDemon

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 21 December 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Seriously, sheep. Stay out of JP. It's not safe. It's not safe! Stay out!

It's hard to tell that to a 5 yr old though.  She enjoys jumping that puzzle but meanies always kill her.  How do I explain that these big boys are wolves without insulting these wolves too much???  :huh:

View PostLaylyn, on 23 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Take the PVE out of the zone.   That includes map crap.   The only thing these kinds of things have ever lead too is entitled dressed up whine posts like these.   I've been reading this since COX in 2005.

They don't want to pvp.  PVPers don't want them in the zone.  Why keep making the same dumb content?

That or make every dungeon a 3 way server combat with pvp and kill stealing allowed by the winning side.  Let the PVP crowd go where the PVE crowd feels we don't belong and give them a really good taste of their own medicine.

A slight modifications to these zones should be fine...  Perhaps once you are in, you can click the "child lock/safety" button.  Once you clicked it, you are not allowed to kill others and others can't kill you.  You're just there for the joy of jumping that puzzle.

Edited by MonsterDemon, 26 December 2012 - 11:50 PM.


#78 Laylyn

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:43 AM

View PostMonsterDemon, on 26 December 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

It's hard to tell that to a 5 yr old though.  She enjoys jumping that puzzle but meanies always kill her.  How do I explain that these big boys are wolves without insulting these wolves too much???  :huh:

A slight modifications to these zones should be fine...  Perhaps once you are in, you can click the "child lock/safety" button.  Once you clicked it, you are not allowed to kill others and others can't kill you.  You're just there for the joy of jumping that puzzle.


You mean in the pvp zone that already has a limited amount of spaces for those that want to fight?  Those spaces that are being used so your server can fight two other servers that want to fight?

Your suggestion is one where the pve rewards of your server will be negatively affected by your own idea.   That's because the loss of match pvp rating that will happen will drop the pvp ranking that already benefits pvers over any pvper.

How about we just remove the PVE kiddies from the adult zone?  The easiest way is to remove their pve content in wpvp.  

PVE content has already hogged most of the dev work from game launch.  PVE content will still do so according to the devs until Feb.  There is no reason to feed the gluttons any more than they have already been fed.

#79 ilr

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:59 AM

Tell ya what the real answer to this should have been..... instead of the stupid ass Carebear VS. Griefer debate currently going on.

Which is if the people who were there in WvWvW to fight other players.... yknow, Actually stopped what they're screwing around with at random Supply Camp they've sacked & flipped for the 376'th time, and actually went to help those other players who are getting griefed or even the ones doing the griefing if that's their thing.   2vs1's aren't balanced.  That's the crux of this argument.  The more people that show up to make it interesting with a wider variety of tactics, the less LAME it is for everyone involved.

But that's that whole problem with the WvWvW community and the lack of "civility".  It's not a moral argument of who's right and who's wrong here.  It's a basic Human teamwork - Socializing thing where too many people ignore everyone else who begs for help or tries to coordinate a more interesting Sub-Meta twist of the current PvD'ing (that only gives you some stupid Karma that you could be getting from so many other consistent sources).

Posted Image

IoW:  when someone yells out "Need help at JP!!" there should be half a dozen more people showing up to help out just like when someone runs into L.A. and says "We need help in WvWvW!!!" there should be 50 people jumping in but they're not b/c flipping the stupid TradingPost instead or doing FOTM crap is 10x more profitable and only slightly less repetitive.

Something about this community and probably the game in general is just not socially motivating/connected.

Edited by ilr, 27 December 2012 - 06:13 AM.


#80 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:43 PM

View Postilr, on 27 December 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Tell ya what the real answer to this should have been..... instead of the stupid ass Carebear VS. Griefer debate currently going on.

Which is if the people who were there in WvWvW to fight other players.... yknow, Actually stopped what they're screwing around with at random Supply Camp they've sacked & flipped for the 376'th time, and actually went to help those other players who are getting griefed or even the ones doing the griefing if that's their thing.   2vs1's aren't balanced.  That's the crux of this argument.  The more people that show up to make it interesting with a wider variety of tactics, the less LAME it is for everyone involved.

But that's that whole problem with the WvWvW community and the lack of "civility".  It's not a moral argument of who's right and who's wrong here.  It's a basic Human teamwork - Socializing thing where too many people ignore everyone else who begs for help or tries to coordinate a more interesting Sub-Meta twist of the current PvD'ing (that only gives you some stupid Karma that you could be getting from so many other consistent sources).

Posted Image

IoW:  when someone yells out "Need help at JP!!" there should be half a dozen more people showing up to help out just like when someone runs into L.A. and says "We need help in WvWvW!!!" there should be 50 people jumping in but they're not b/c flipping the stupid TradingPost instead or doing FOTM crap is 10x more profitable and only slightly less repetitive.

Something about this community and probably the game in general is just not socially motivating/connected.

This is totally wrong at least on my server. As stated before, we organize teams to go into the JP.

Also, if one person calls out for help in the JP but 30 people are under attack at a tower, how is it teamwork if we give up the tower for that one person? Shouldn't they be less concerned with their legendary than with helping their team? They could always help the team first then suggest a run at the JP.

But anyways... I'm always seeing people answer the call to port at the JP. That's a lot of work, you know, completeing the JP so others can benefit without any effort. Kinda dull to say those people aren't team players.

Now there have been times when the other server is camping JP wiht 30 + and that is NOT the time to rush in there. We'd lose half the map. Just wait. They'll leave. Happens daily.

#81 beadnbutter32

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:41 PM

What part of WvW zone don't you understand.  It is not un-civil to attack opposing players in a WvW zone.  There is a reason why those are fairly easy JP's with pretty decent rewards.  The reason is the pvp threat.

Working as designed.

If you can't deal with that threat, get out of a pvp zone and go do a hard and rewarding JP out in the PVE zones.  I recommend the hidden JP in Mount Maelstrom.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 27 December 2012 - 01:45 PM.


#82 Darch0n

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

I play it by situation

If people are just trying to complete the jp I will leave them alone. However, if there's a group camping the very end of the jp, my guildies and I will fight to take it over. It's pretty fun to have a straight up battle in the jp, much more interesting than fighting in a zerg. We had 10-15 people fighting to take it over last night. Eventually we got it and held it for a half hour or more so everyone could get completion and the rewards. Having more than 2 mesmers is key to holding it

#83 Millimidget

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostMrZero, on 19 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

My personal feeling is that camping the jumping puzzle is half a step spawn camping.
My two suggestions for the EB JP are to segregate it from EB proper so that players in the jump puzzle don't count toward player caps in EB, and to add some sort of debuff that behaves similarly to the one found in the Wintersday JP but on a longer time scale (ie 1% reduction in all stats every 15-30s, so that after X amount of time you hit like a whimp and your entire zerg can't possibly hold the JP against even an upleveled level 2 player with only one weapon ability trained so far, perhaps excluding vitality/health so that you can still absorb falls). Of course, you would need to remove the ability to lay siege in there, but that seems in-line with my first suggestion (and may even be necessary).

You'd still get some light PvP in there, but no one could really last in there with the express intent of camping it, and the burden is put more heavily on anyone who tries than on those who are merely running through to get the chest.

Of course, they could just increase badge drop rates. I'd rather get the badges from a similar amount of time spent on taking supply camps or killing dolyaks than I would from completing the jump puzzle.

View PostHennet, on 21 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

This thread is like the people on a PvP server in that "other" game and complaining about PvP.
I wish we had open world PvP, but it seems devs have really been designing that out of their MMOs.

Edited by Millimidget, 27 December 2012 - 06:57 PM.


#84 MonsterDemon

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostLaylyn, on 27 December 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

How about we just remove the PVE kiddies from the adult zone?  The easiest way is to remove their pve content in wpvp.  

PVE content has already hogged most of the dev work from game launch.  PVE content will still do so according to the devs until Feb.  There is no reason to feed the gluttons any more than they have already been fed.

Laylyn, typically I would agree with many of your statements.  But I don't believe that PVE folks are mostly kiddies.  Yes, it's true my kids love that Karka event, Halloween event and Wintersday event.  I'm sure many adult likes that too.  I would see PVP as more teenagers since they like to talk trash and brag?  

The developers chose to concentrate more on PVE as it may sell more games and allow them to sell more gems.  Without being able to generate more revenues/profits I just don't see how they can keep the servers and staff going.  In any case, hopefully the update to WvW is a good one.  Maybe Anet will implement a gems to purchase seige in next update?  This way, it will make WvW a viable income generator for them as well.

#85 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

I dom't think Laylyn meant kiddies in the literal sense.

And as far as converting it to 'light' PvP without siege etc. NO! Freaking NO! The chests give out blue prints! Forget the badges. Blue Prints! These must NOT be allowed to fall into enemy hands! A light PvP zone is basically providing free unlimited BPs to everyone.

And if you take out the BPs, what's the point? Why even bother? People who WvW don't need the badges. Only PvE people do.

If you take out the JP completely from WvW, then that's like saying 'only PvE people get to enjoy this'.

If you take the badge requirement off of legendaries, then why have legendaries? They'd be soooo common if they were 100% PvE and I, for one, want them to be extrememly difficult to get. I mean, I'm not even going to START trying for one for another 2 months because I don't have the time right now.

The WvW Jump Puzzles were put in WvW for a reason. To create a supremely unique challenge of a PvP Jump Puzzle. Anyone can do a regular jump puzzle given enough time. To do it while someone else is trying to kill you means you need skill and a steady hand.

And again, if 30+ people from an enemy server are camping it, that's a real and valuable strategy, not just them being jerks. It's an organized defense of valuable resources. Hold JP, mesmer ports people, tons of BPs and Badges in a very very very short period of time.

Does it suck if you are a PvE player on at primetime on a server who doesn't care about the puzzle? Yes. Yes it does. But there are other servers, transfers are free, and you can come back to your home server when done. Pretend it's a vacation. If you want the legendaries that bad and right away, then that's the work around.

Creating a cease fire or asking for changes based on your personal goals is counter productive. Whatever happened to people doing whatever it takes to reach an important goal? Now, we always seem to want to lower the bar and give awards to everyone. Let's just pur the darn badges on the TP and be done with it.

#86 1up

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:45 PM

I farm a lot of people in the JP... I need the extra badges and the troll is somewhat fun!

#87 Kada

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:02 AM

Bow or wave, if they bow or wave back - you have your truce. If they don't, kill them all.

#88 Xai

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostLaylyn, on 27 December 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

You mean in the pvp zone that already has a limited amount of spaces for those that want to fight?  Those spaces that are being used so your server can fight two other servers that want to fight?

Your suggestion is one where the pve rewards of your server will be negatively affected by your own idea.   That's because the loss of match pvp rating that will happen will drop the pvp ranking that already benefits pvers over any pvper.

How about we just remove the PVE kiddies from the adult zone?  The easiest way is to remove their pve content in wpvp.  

PVE content has already hogged most of the dev work from game launch.  PVE content will still do so according to the devs until Feb.  There is no reason to feed the gluttons any more than they have already been fed.

I don't disagree with all your suggestions, but I do take some exception at your phrasing. Belittling PVEers is hardly helpful, nor is being bitter that they're receiving more dev attention.

Stay classy, Beastgate.

#89 SelwynnSelene

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:42 AM

One does not simply walk into the jumping puzzle....

#90 SelwynnSelene

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:51 AM

So let me get this straight, the OP has been arguing this for three pages now?  

You are complaining about PvP happening in a PvP zone.  That is not going to win you many supporters, because it is - as it has always been whenever it has been cried in times before - a ridiculous argument.

What you should be doing instead is putting the same amount of energy into asking ANet to change what you don't like about being forced to go into a pvp zone when you don't want to pvp.  But calling it "uncivil" to engage the enemy in pvp when I see them?   Uh, no. PvP happens in PvP zones.  

There is significant tactical reason for us to hold the JP and prevent YOU from accessing it.  When we hold it, we can setup our mesmer chains and run our server up to the top to stock up on siege for the next week batter.  We also want to prevent our enemies from doing the same.  

You say you just want badges from some pve goal, but I can't know that's true.  You could just as easily be collecting badges to gear yourself up and be more effective as an enemy.  I'm sorry but I won't just passively allow that.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned if I saw a sever mate ignoring an enemy target in world vs. world and letting them go about their business out of some sort of charity I'd consider that aiding the enemy.  

Let me put this as "civilly" as I can:  I have one goal in WvW, and that includes the "jumping puzzle" :  

to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentation of their women.




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