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#1 Gorwe

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 03:42 AM

Right, I've got a Heavy Tactical oriented Warrior build in mind. It would use full Defense and Tactic trait Lines and 10 spare points into Strength. Weapons are Longbow and Rifle. Jewels Soldier's(full) and Runes of Dolyak.

Tactics Traits: Stronger Bowstrings(when they remember to actually update it to cut LB recharges by 20%)-but for now Shake It Off+Inspirational Battle Standard and Motivational Banners(that trait which gives 50% more area to Banners and cuts their recharges by 20%)
Defense Traits: Turtle's Defence+Last Resort(Balanced stance ON when hard CCs come) and Defy Pain
Strength Traits: Powerful Banners

Utility skills: All Banners! Huh! Yeah! Cover the whole battlefield in boons/regen. Banners of Defense/Discipline and Tactics.
Elite is Battle Standard(MOAR FLAGS!!!)
Also, how much dmg does Powerful Banners trait add to them?

So how would this fun build do?

Edited by Gorwe, 20 December 2012 - 03:44 AM.


#2 dawdler

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

It would probably be sub-optimal and weak compared to a shout/melee build, but hey if its fun its fun. I used a build with 2 regen banners a while ago and it was quite fun.

I would definetly not use both rifle and longbow in PvE - the AoE would be weak and single target pitifull (keep in mind the rifle being the "best" single target ranged weapon the warrior has doesnt really say anything, since its the ONLY single target ranged weapon he has).

For the banners, I seriously doubt powerfull banners AoE damage come anywhere close to the 12% damage trait [with an AoE melee weapon]. Even with the 20% cooldown traited, banners have a VERY long cooldown. I have no idea what kind of damage they do (never used the trait) but if its not something in the line of 20K damage on every mob in range, its probably not worth it.

There are other problems with all banners as well - you aint gonna have time to pick each up and use their abilities fully. The battlestandard elite is also complete arse compared to the signet (even when signet is untraited). So the more banners you have, the less you can use them.

For WvW I guess it would be quite usefull as a ranged support trooper, problem is you wont be using the Warrior optimally either way you look at it. Warrior does best in the thick of battle, not behind the lines.

Edited by dawdler, 20 December 2012 - 09:10 AM.


#3 lmaonade

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

banners are awesome, I love the support they bring, unfortunately, a shout warrior is a far superior support, the main reason being that though banners give perma Regeneration, it becomes redundant and wasted when you take more than 1 banner. That 170 hp per tick is nice and all, but it definitely cannot win against a shout warrior who heals for 1.4k per shout, on an overall cooldown of about 21 seconds for a full rotation of shouts.

however, the support banners bring is significant and real, whenever a party mate is already taking shouts I definitely go for banners (my guild usually does party set ups with 1 Guardian, 2 other supports, and 2 full DPS), the blast finishers themselves are awesome, then you add on the constant power they bring and you have one beefed up party.

and powerful banners is not worth it as a trait, the cooldown on banners is way too long for it to add any visible dps

if Anet changed Inspirational battle standard to give a regeneration that ISN'T a boon, and therefore can stack with each other, banners would instantly become #1 support option for warrior, especially since it frees up the master trait so you can take the warhorn trait instead of the shouts cooldown one, banners + condition removal from warhorn = ultimate win

Edited by lmaonade, 20 December 2012 - 09:17 AM.


#4 dawdler

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

I just tested powerfull banners against the mass of golems in the mists... Weak. Utterly and totally weak. It hit for about the same damage as a single mace hit (as in 1-2, not the far higher 3 damage). With 80+ seconds cooldown, that damage mean nothing.

#5 Gorwe

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:10 PM

What the mass of Banners brings is the size of application, not the quality of application. For IBS: Imagine Healing Rain on 4x larger area-that's what 4 Banners bring. Drop them in the right places and voila.

Plus I am not nearly concerned about "viability". Plenty o builds started out as a "not viable" builds. Keep in mind tho-this build has HIGH tactical requirements(timings/placement/activation of banner skill #2/...).

Ok so I can safely skip Powerful Banners. I thought they would do more dmg, but meh. Is not Like at 80 I don't have over 3000 attack anyhow(100 power will make no difference). With 3300 Armour and ~24k hp.

Also, why is everyone obsessed with Warrior=Melee? I know that GS is utterly broken, but with my combo weapons you have both single target and AoE focus.

#6 dawdler

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

View PostGorwe, on 20 December 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Also, why is everyone obsessed with Warrior=Melee? I know that GS is utterly broken, but with my combo weapons you have both single target and AoE focus.
Constant AoE, what's not to like? Thing is... If you hit a mob with 5K dps, that's great. But you still only hit one. If you hit 4 mobs with a low 2.5K dps, that's still doing twice the damage of your single target dpser. And the bow isnt even near melee weapon dps, simple as that. If you want to kite... Well you got the rifle dont you?

#7 Thaddeuz

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

For me the Warrior's ranged weapons are secondary just like with the Guardian. I don't say they are usuless, just that melee are better overall. That said, the rifle or the bow bring something different to the Warrior arsenal and should alway keep one in your inventory as your second weapon set.

For the Shout vs Banner lets take a look at the numbers. In the banner build you can keep constant regeneration with two banners. Without any Healing Power the regeneration give you 130 hp/sec to you and everybody in the area.  With the shout you use three with 20, 20 and 24 second of cooldown each one healing of 1192 hp each without any healing power. That give about 168hp/sec of healing.

Now if we go beyond the number, the banner with a trait have a larger radius, and give better stats boost for the party. It also allow the Warrior to keep his shake it off for when he need it (break stun, or a too much stack of bleed) and when his ally need it. If the shout warrior keep his shake it off and use only two shout for constant healing he got 109hp/sec of healing with is not a little bit less that the banner's 130hp/sec

For now both can be viable, shout have more healing, but banner give more stats and allow the warrior to give regen to everybody without having to think about it more that once each minute and now 3 times each 20 second. But if you take into account the fact that healing power affect Shout healing for everybody and only regen for the warrior its self that change the balance between these two build. With 1000 healing power, the banner's warrior gonna still give 130hp/sec to his party but 255 hp/sec to himself. For the shout warrior with 1000 healing power, he gonna give to himself and to his ally 282hp/sec. And if the warrior keep his shake it off for emergency, its 183hp/sec again for everybody near him.

In conclusion :

If you play solo, with or without healing power you better choose banner.
If you play in group without any healing power, both build can be good, but i prefer the banners.
If you play in group with at least some healing power, the shout build is superior.

Let me now if i'm wrong with my calculation.

#8 dawdler

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 20 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

In the banner build you can keep constant regeneration with two banners.
You can keep constant regen with just one banner (with the trait bonus, regular banners will stay the entire CD). Hence FGJ+SIO+banner is a common combo that gives a little bit of everything.

The real "problem" with banner healing is that if anyone in your group got AoE regen, then much of its potential is wasted (even though minutes of leftover regen is good lol). Would have been great if the banner healing was a passive skill rather than a boon :(

#9 Gorwe

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostThaddeuz, on 20 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

For me the Warrior's ranged weapons are secondary just like with the Guardian. I don't say they are usuless, just that melee are better overall. That said, the rifle or the bow bring something different to the Warrior arsenal and should alway keep one in your inventory as your second weapon set.

For the Shout vs Banner lets take a look at the numbers. In the banner build you can keep constant regeneration with two banners. Without any Healing Power the regeneration give you 130 hp/sec to you and everybody in the area.  With the shout you use three with 20, 20 and 24 second of cooldown each one healing of 1192 hp each without any healing power. That give about 168hp/sec of healing.

Now if we go beyond the number, the banner with a trait have a larger radius, and give better stats boost for the party. It also allow the Warrior to keep his shake it off for when he need it (break stun, or a too much stack of bleed) and when his ally need it. If the shout warrior keep his shake it off and use only two shout for constant healing he got 109hp/sec of healing with is not a little bit less that the banner's 130hp/sec

For now both can be viable, shout have more healing, but banner give more stats and allow the warrior to give regen to everybody without having to think about it more that once each minute and now 3 times each 20 second. But if you take into account the fact that healing power affect Shout healing for everybody and only regen for the warrior its self that change the balance between these two build. With 1000 healing power, the banner's warrior gonna still give 130hp/sec to his party but 255 hp/sec to himself. For the shout warrior with 1000 healing power, he gonna give to himself and to his ally 282hp/sec. And if the warrior keep his shake it off for emergency, its 183hp/sec again for everybody near him.

In conclusion :

If you play solo, with or without healing power you better choose banner.
If you play in group without any healing power, both build can be good, but i prefer the banners.
If you play in group with at least some healing power, the shout build is superior.

Let me now if i'm wrong with my calculation.

Where do you get that Compassion(healing power) affects only healing on you? Never heard that one...

And yes, the reason for the build is RP based and I'll be going mostly solo. In most of dungeons which one you use makes no difference anyhow.

#10 Brand

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

It's all been said before so I don't think I'll bother with a huge post, I'll just outline the major points:
  • Regeneration doesn't overlap, so if you have another guy in your party (Guardian, Elementalist) using Regen, someone is wasting it.
  • Battle Standard Elite is much worse than Signet of Rage. The only time it really becomes viable is if you have two Warriors in your group, both using it at the same time (Durations stack for Fury/Swiftness).
  • A shout build is definitely much better for support (Check out Sithicus' [Think Tank] and Numerical Analysis threads).
  • The only time your idea would work is in large, spread out boss fights, which there aren't a whole lot of (You don't need three banners to cover a small battlefield).
  • Rifle and Longbow are not meant to be main damage weapons. They offer too much utility and not enough straight up damage.
  • Your weapon choices do not synergize with your build at all. A tanky/support guy should be packing Mace+Shield or Hammer (Or both).
  • As an RP Warrior, don't you think you should be spending a little more time on the front lines? Your group needs you to be a buffer between them and the boss, that's what a tank does.
  • Why are you putting all this effort into being tanky when you aren't going to be in melee/getting hit?
Basically, your build isn't optimal and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (No offense). Builds do matter in dungeons and your team will appreciate a tank that is actually keeping the boss away from them. There is a Shout/Banner build that uses Hammer/Longbow. It provides heavy Might/Regen support, shout healing, and decent dps while being very tanky. It's optimal, makes you a better group player, not wasteful, and also fits with your RP thing of using a banner (Just not all of the banners). Let me know if you are interested and I'll tell you about it more.

#11 Gorwe

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

Because I don't care about efficiency? Efficient=fun(in my book) and it also should be Like that when talking bout PvE.

As for RP-you really think Wolf Follower Norn who believes in cunning and outwitting his foes would use lol what? Big Hammer(not exactly clever weapon= bash, bash, bash) or maybe Mace+Shield(I love both of those things, but it doesn't fit a Hunter, man!-> Hunter that willingly becomes prey is foolish). What is left? Ranged weapons that resonate well with Hunter types. And Warhorn that I have no idea how to incorporate without making my Char the prey. As for Banners->excellent method of leading/moving as a pack(Wolf teachings). Could use Shouts as well. Defense? I(not my char, but he is huge so it makes Sense) Like gajillions of hp/Armour.

p.s. Please ignore the previous p.s. While its points stand, it is not discussion for here and now. I decided to use Shouts when in dungeons/small groups with Mace/Warhorn(is Quick Breathing{-20 cd on Warhorn skills+condition transformation} or Deep Breath{-20% cd on utility Shouts} better here?)/Longbow and I'll use Longbow+Rifle+Banners for solo play/large groups...

That better?

Edited by Gorwe, 23 December 2012 - 01:25 AM.


#12 Brand

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:12 AM

Quick breathing is better in a shout build that also has Warhorn.

Just saying though, Wolf isn't about outwitting your foes; that's Raven.

Quote

Wolf has the cunning of the pack behind him. He imparts the virtues of loyalty, ferocity, and strength in numbers. When he came to me, he whispered of my heroic future and told me I would never be alone.
He has the cunning of the pack behind him, meaning that as a group they are more cunning, not each individual "wolf". Their virtues are loyalty, ferocity, and strength in numbers as it says. Nowhere does it say you are outwitting foes or being exceptionally bright. You just work well as a team (This is why the Wolfborn are the Hoelbrak guards, they are the most suited to a team environment).

You seem to be at odds with your Roleplaying Personality. You want to be huge and tanky, but Wolfborn are more lithe and swift. If you don't want to restart your character, then you're best with going Sword/Warhorn or Greatsword (Sword seems to be the chosen weapon of the Wolf). For Sword/Warhorn you will be mobile and less tanky, but still have good survivability (Though, the damage is a little weak). For Greatsword you might consider Sonic Boon, making you swift and less tanky, and still with great damage and decent survivability.

or

Remake your character and be Bearborn, and run with a build like the one I suggested earlier.

I think you'd make an awesome Wolfborn with Sword/Warhorn though, just my opinion.

Edited by Brand, 23 December 2012 - 05:51 AM.


#13 Gorwe

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostBrand, on 23 December 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

Quick breathing is better in a shout build that also has Warhorn.

Just saying though, Wolf isn't about outwitting your foes; that's Raven.

He has the cunning of the pack behind him, meaning that as a group they are more cunning, not each individual "wolf". Their virtues are loyalty, ferocity, and strength in numbers as it says. Nowhere does it say you are outwitting foes or being exceptionally bright. You just work well as a team (This is why the Wolfborn are the Hoelbrak guards, they are the most suited to a team environment).

You seem to be at odds with your Roleplaying Personality. You want to be huge and tanky, but Wolfborn are more lithe and swift. If you don't want to restart your character, then you're best with going Sword/Warhorn or Greatsword (Sword seems to be the chosen weapon of the Wolf). For Sword/Warhorn you will be mobile and less tanky, but still have good survivability (Though, the damage is a little weak). For Greatsword you might consider Sonic Boon, making you swift and less tanky, and still with great damage and decent survivability.

or

Remake your character and be Bearborn, and run with a build like the one I suggested earlier.

I think you'd make an awesome Wolfborn with Sword/Warhorn though, just my opinion.


Who says I chose Wolf ;) ? I only said I chose cunning...

Nah, my Warrior is really Ursan, not Wolfen(that is his brother, the Ranger :)). And Btw-when choosing between something+Shield/Warhorn, I am always torn between Sword+Offhand and Mace+Offhand. Mace combos better with Defense, but Sword is idk-better?

Idk, both he and his brother have big huge weapon training. Maybe Hammer?

And can Hunter be efficient if he purposefully becomes the pray(i.e-using a Shield?)?

#14 Brand

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 07:38 AM

Well, you said, "Wolf Follower Norn" You don't "Follow" any spirit except your guide (Or at least you wouldn't RP wise).

Regardless, as a Bearborn I think it probably would make the most sense to be using Hammer or Mace+Shield, in a primary defensive build, Mace>Sword all the time. Sword does kill things faster, but that doesn't really matter in a group. You should have an Axe in your bags though, for general PvE or when you know the mace skills wont help much.

#15 Gorwe

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:41 AM

Hunter with a Shield? Hm....

Tho I have 11k Defensive rating with all gear. Is that worthy of the Bear?




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