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#181 Silinsar

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 09 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

But what does it matter...? You can't kill Thief. He can't kill you. It's equally shit for both parties involved.

Not really. Thief makes the dicision. If he has the upper hand in a fight he's the one with the mobility to chase others down. If he is inferior to his opponent he has superior escape tool: stealth combined with mobility. This is Thief's greatest strength in my opinion, especially in wvw. I don't find them very threatening in the "middle" of a combat but very good at ending it, be it this or that way.

Edited by Silinsar, 09 January 2013 - 07:07 PM.


#182 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 09 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

I know plenty of shit Thieves that don't kill shit easily. I honestly think that there are many other classes that are far more accessible and far easier to play.. like Guardian.. you can kill shit without even moving.. or D/D hybrid bunker Ele that can kill shit with a blind fold on.. Thief actually requires awareness and the ability to dodge extremely well. I wasn't born a good Thief in GW2. I've already got around 2000 hours on Thief and I still find myself dying, learning and improving. I honestly think a lot of people start playing Thief because it teaches you a very valuable lesson in GW2; "L2Dodge noob!"

If you disagree that's fine. It's a subjective point. For some reason however, I get the distinct feeling that you (and people arguing the same points as you, this isn't directed solely at you) are pretty damn biased... I think you've been killed one too many times by shitty Heartseeker spammers.. and now you're pretty damn pissed off... So you all make feeble attempts at accusing the class or "QQ ez2play nub class" and make simply ridiculous generalizations when the simple truth is.. if you were any good at all.. you wouldn't get killed by those shitty Heartseeker spammers and then QQ about how unfair everything in the world is on the forums..

It doesn't even qualify as a "first world problem".

I wouldn't be surprised if those of us that are bitching against the thief actually have the thief as one of our most played classes. I mean, the class is dumb as * - but easy kills are easy kills.
Do I understand that each time I load my thief and play poorly but then end up being among the match's best players I am destroying the game? Of course. But why the * should I care, I am getting top glory.

#183 MrForz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

View PostSilinsar, on 09 January 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Not really. Thief makes the dicision. If he has the upper hand in a fight he's the one with the mobility to chase others down. If he is inferior to his opponent he has superior escape tool: stealth combined with mobility. This is Thief's greatest strength in my opinion, especially in wvw. I don't find them very threatening in the "middle" of a combat but very good at ending it, be it this or that way.

There, quoted for truth.

#184 draxynnic

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:31 AM

Regarding the thief... what I think ArenaNet really needs to do is make Revealed a condition that can be applied by enemy players. That would give other professions a means of forcing a thief to drop out of stealth or preventing them from entering stealth (unless the thief uses condition removal). To add another countermeasure, there could also be a boon (subject to removal) such as True Sight that allows someone to see a stealthed opponent.

Make it so that these are things that represent a significant enough investment that they're not really worth taking unless you have a reasonable expectation of facing stealthed opponents, and that would create a self-correcting meta - the more people use stealth the more people will start using anti-stealth measures, and the less attractivestealth becomes, while conversely the less people use stealth, the more attractive stealth becomes. The problem with stealth at the moment is that it really doesn't have a counter - most AoE effects are balanced on the expectation they'll be carefully placed for maximum effect, not simply fired blind in hope of catching a single stealthed thief who could be anywhere by the time the effect lands.

View PostDiet, on 04 January 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

  • Engineer
    • The Engineer is a highly versatile class. While it doesn’t have the long range capabilities of the Ranger, or the melee capabilities of the Warrior or Guardian, they are comfortable at medium ranges in most fights. They have a lot of control, and use their boons to keep themselves (and allies) alive in a fight. They can use different kits based on the situation, but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.
  • Ele
    • We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elementalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.
I would really like to know what their thinking is while saying the engineer loses damage on their mainhand because of versatility, while naming the ele king of versatility and saying how awesome they are at support control and AOE dps. This doesn't seem very balanced
These paragraphs are necessarily summaries, and don't spell everything out.

Elementalists pay other prices - they're more fragile than engineers, their control, while good, isn't as good as a well-played engineer, and they can't juggle attunements the way an engineer can juggle kits. Furthermore, engineers can have weapons intended for a range of engagement distances in a single build, while the only option that an elementalist has to get a bit of range on an otherwise melee build or a close-in option for a standoff build are the somewhat impractical weapon conjures. An engineer, by contrast, is reasonably comfortable with pretty much any range with their main weapon, and can fairly simply get kits that give them good options at any range - within the same trait lines, for instance, they could easily go grenades+bombs or elixir gun+flamethrower to have both a long and short range option. This goes doubly when you consider that grenadier engineers share with longbow rangers a near monopoly on skills with ranges greater than 1200.

If there's a flaw in the comparison between these philosophies, it's that the engineer is actually fundamentally more versatile than the elementalist.
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#185 lioka qiao

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 10 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Regarding the thief... what I think ArenaNet really needs to do is make Revealed a condition that can be applied by enemy players. That would give other professions a means of forcing a thief to drop out of stealth or preventing them from entering stealth (unless the thief uses condition removal). To add another countermeasure, there could also be a boon (subject to removal) such as True Sight that allows someone to see a stealthed opponent.

Make it so that these are things that represent a significant enough investment that they're not really worth taking unless you have a reasonable expectation of facing stealthed opponents, and that would create a self-correcting meta - the more people use stealth the more people will start using anti-stealth measures, and the less attractivestealth becomes, while conversely the less people use stealth, the more attractive stealth becomes. The problem with stealth at the moment is that it really doesn't have a counter - most AoE effects are balanced on the expectation they'll be carefully placed for maximum effect, not simply fired blind in hope of catching a single stealthed thief who could be anywhere by the time the effect lands.

If ANET made that change to revealed they'd also have to make stealth much more easily accessible since for a thief it's really our true means of survival in a fight.  We have a minimum 40 second cooldown on a stealth utility and Cloak and Dagger for stealthing.  If you give everyone the equivalent of WoW's hunter flare ability then we lose our capability to fight anyone in melee range.  The class basically revolves around the ability to stealth to be effective in melee range.

Here's how you can tell how valuable stealth is to us:  Enter sPvP as a thief with only one stealth utility skill equipped and see how effective you are in a fight.  Chances are you'll get chewed up especially by dagger eles, any warrior, any guardian, and any mesmer.  Chances also are you'll be popping shadowstep just to get away from fights you otherwise should have either won or been on even ground in.

-edit:  you're not allowed to equip cloak and dagger or hide in shadows either.  remember that you're taking away these abilities with the change to revealed.

Edited by lioka qiao, 10 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#186 draxynnic

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

The point is to make it so that they're "expensive" enough that they're NOT going to be on every single character out there, but if someone really wants to be a little less helpless against stealth-heavy thieves, they can take it. Problem is, at the moment, stealth has pretty much no real counters (spamming AoE blindly isn't going to be a serious threat to a good thief unless the spammer is lucky, and if there is coordination in a WvWvW environment, that means that one or two thieves can draw out a group's AoE just before an attack arrives). I've seen a handful of thieves in WvWvW attack a large group, gank a player or two, and get away scot-free on the basis of being able to stealth away (no, for the record, I wasn't one of the players who was ganked).

Imagine if, say, there was a utility skill on a 60 second recharge that put down a trap or mark that revealed a thief that triggered it for ten seconds - and that's all it does. Unless thieves really are so pandemic that they really, really needed the nerf, not everyone is going to carry that. If you harass a small group, you have decent odds that the group isn't going to have it, or you'll be able to avoid it if they do. If you're a thief attacking a group as part of a larger group - you also have a decent chance that the enemy is going to be too distracted by your allies to pay a lot of attention to tracking you. Attack a large group on your own, though, and chances are someone's going to get you.

And when you think about it, this makes sense. The more sets of eyes looking, the more likely even the most accomplished hider is going to be spotted. Yes, the mechanic is 'can you hit the thief with a spotting skill' rather than the random chance of happening to be looking at the right place at the right time, but it's still a better representation than the current best practise of unloading mass AoE on the likely location of a thief that just disappeared before the eyes of three dozen people and hoping to bring them down in the half second or so it takes them to get out of the radius of most AoEs.
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#187 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

I was playing a high crit and power rifle warrior in WvW the other day and facerolled almost everything. Including thieves.

Edited by shiggidyshwa, 11 January 2013 - 05:14 PM.


#188 lioka qiao

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:09 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 10 January 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

The point is to make it so that they're "expensive" enough that they're NOT going to be on every single character out there, but if someone really wants to be a little less helpless against stealth-heavy thieves, they can take it. Problem is, at the moment, stealth has pretty much no real counters (spamming AoE blindly isn't going to be a serious threat to a good thief unless the spammer is lucky, and if there is coordination in a WvWvW environment, that means that one or two thieves can draw out a group's AoE just before an attack arrives). I've seen a handful of thieves in WvWvW attack a large group, gank a player or two, and get away scot-free on the basis of being able to stealth away (no, for the record, I wasn't one of the players who was ganked).

Imagine if, say, there was a utility skill on a 60 second recharge that put down a trap or mark that revealed a thief that triggered it for ten seconds - and that's all it does. Unless thieves really are so pandemic that they really, really needed the nerf, not everyone is going to carry that. If you harass a small group, you have decent odds that the group isn't going to have it, or you'll be able to avoid it if they do. If you're a thief attacking a group as part of a larger group - you also have a decent chance that the enemy is going to be too distracted by your allies to pay a lot of attention to tracking you. Attack a large group on your own, though, and chances are someone's going to get you.

And when you think about it, this makes sense. The more sets of eyes looking, the more likely even the most accomplished hider is going to be spotted. Yes, the mechanic is 'can you hit the thief with a spotting skill' rather than the random chance of happening to be looking at the right place at the right time, but it's still a better representation than the current best practise of unloading mass AoE on the likely location of a thief that just disappeared before the eyes of three dozen people and hoping to bring them down in the half second or so it takes them to get out of the radius of most AoEs.

My point in countering a mechanic like this is that it doesn't matter who you put it on or how expensive it is.  It is a hard counter to thieves and groups will stack it to counter thieves with it as much as possible.  In a big zerg vs zerg fight thieves will lose viability thanks to this mechanic.  Zergs will invariably drop the ward or trap or whatever how it works and no thief will be able to get to melee range much less avoid the onslaught of weapon shots spammed at him.  To an extent mesmers will lose some capability too but thankfully they have their clones to fall back on.

In sPvP you would have to choose classes which carry the best version of the skill that drops the revealed zones or otherwise die against thieves.  Eventually everyone carries some form of the revealed condition and thieves lose the ability to compete in any pvp.

The only reason these abilities worked in world of warcraft is because of how stealth worked:  Taking damage would drop stealth and players could see the stealthed rogue would be revealed if he was in front of his enemy.  Additionally stealth was also easily accessible as a toggled ability and had infinite duration.

My point is that ANET cannot introduce a hard counter to a class in this game.  If they introduce a revealing mechanic that breaks stealth as a castable aoe or trap then they have to make changes to stealth itself and make it more easily accessed by thieves.  If they introduce revealed like this and leave stealth as it is it destroys a thief's viability in pvp.

A more balanced countermeasure is to bring in one of the aspects of wow's stealth:  make it such that taking damage in stealth reveals the stealthed player.

#189 Straegen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostSilinsar, on 09 January 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Not really. Thief makes the dicision. If he has the upper hand in a fight he's the one with the mobility to chase others down. If he is inferior to his opponent he has superior escape tool: stealth combined with mobility. This is Thief's greatest strength in my opinion, especially in wvw. I don't find them very threatening in the "middle" of a combat but very good at ending it, be it this or that way.
Truth.

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 11 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:



I was playing a high crit and power rifle warrior in WvW the other day and facerolled almost everything. Including thieves.
You are awesome!

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#190 draxynnic

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

View Postlioka qiao, on 11 January 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

My point in countering a mechanic like this is that it doesn't matter who you put it on or how expensive it is.  It is a hard counter to thieves and groups will stack it to counter thieves with it as much as possible.  In a big zerg vs zerg fight thieves will lose viability thanks to this mechanic.  Zergs will invariably drop the ward or trap or whatever how it works and no thief will be able to get to melee range much less avoid the onslaught of weapon shots spammed at him.  To an extent mesmers will lose some capability too but thankfully they have their clones to fall back on.

In sPvP you would have to choose classes which carry the best version of the skill that drops the revealed zones or otherwise die against thieves.  Eventually everyone carries some form of the revealed condition and thieves lose the ability to compete in any pvp.

The only reason these abilities worked in world of warcraft is because of how stealth worked:  Taking damage would drop stealth and players could see the stealthed rogue would be revealed if he was in front of his enemy.  Additionally stealth was also easily accessible as a toggled ability and had infinite duration.

My point is that ANET cannot introduce a hard counter to a class in this game.  If they introduce a revealing mechanic that breaks stealth as a castable aoe or trap then they have to make changes to stealth itself and make it more easily accessed by thieves.  If they introduce revealed like this and leave stealth as it is it destroys a thief's viability in pvp.

A more balanced countermeasure is to bring in one of the aspects of wow's stealth:  make it such that taking damage in stealth reveals the stealthed player.
Making it expensive is going to mean that players who have it are going to be weaker if they're not facing stealth-users. There's going to be a point at which taking more on the odd chance of facing heavy stealth just isn't going to be worth it. If stealth is prevalent in a game mode, then more people will take countermeasures, until stealth becomes less attractive. If stealth-users have been driven out of a game mode due to too many countermeasures, groups using heavy countermeasures will rarely get use out of them and be at a disadvantage, pushing them to use less countermeasures until stealth becomes viable again. The system becomes self-correcting until it settles into the equilibrium where players feel they're taking an acceptable balance between risking facing stealth-users without having countermeasures, or risking being weighed down by countermeasures that are pointless in the battle.

If the end result is, as you claim, that the countermeasures are so prevalent that stealth play becomes impossible, than either that's showing that stealth is just so broken that people feel they MUST have countermeasures, or ArenaNet made the countermeasures too good. However, introducing countermeasures means that ArenaNet can have another means of balancing stealth - if stealth is too prevalent they can increase the strength of the countermeasures, if it is being pushed out, they can make the countermeasures weaker. The thing is, at the moment, stealth is pretty much a hard counter to pretty much any attempt to take a thief down that can't do so with area effects within a second or so. (Plus, it's not just a matter of punishing thieves in PvP - I'd love to be able to force those dratted skelks out of invisibility occasionally in PvE too.) Furthermore, in cases of zergs and the like where there probably are going to be countermeasures - who says that you HAVE to go melee? I'd regard having at least one ranged weapon as pretty much essential in WvWvW, and you can always hang back and shoot and reserve melee weapons for jumping targets of opportunity where the risk is worth it. That's the way I've played with a flipping guardian, after all, and while I'd concede that thief ranged weapons aren't the best in the game for PvP, I would contend that they're better for PvP than a guardian's.

Damage dropping thieves out of stealth is, I think, actually too strong of a countermeasure. Hitting a stealthed thief isn't hard, it's hitting them hard enough with blind-fired AoEs to drop them. If any area damage effect becomes a countermeasure, then it would suddenly become much too easy - rangers, necromancers and other thieves could just scatter a few marks and traps around, characters with cheap area effects like staff guardians and some engineer kits could simply blast the area around them, and even a fortuitously placed dual-purpose field such as a symbol, well, or chaos storm might catch an unlucky thief - and that's just assuming that the thief has so far escaped detection, rather than the other side having a recently known position to blast. You'd go from the current situation where stealth is pretty much a guaranteed escape to one where it becomes pretty much useless as soon as the enemy knows roughly where you are. Instead of a situation where some or any professions may have a hard counter (which they still need to catch the stealth-user in to work) and where ArenaNet can indirectly control the availability of countermeasures by balancing said countermeasures, you'd have one where every staff guardian, staff necromancer, or flamethrower engineer becomes a hard counter, not to mention a whole bunch of PvE enemies. And that's assuming that condition damage doesn't count as damage, or stealth-users would really be kittened. One thing to keep in mind with the WoW method, as I understand it, is that rogues there are really only expected to use stealth to get into a favourable position to start a fight, or to attempt to get out of it - they're not intended to use stealth during a fight like GW2 thieves are.

Seriously, as someone who's so far WvW'd exclusively as a staff+melee set guardian, I would love for your counterproposal to be implemented. As someone who actually cares about thieves remaining useful albeit not as untouchable as they can be now, however, I think my proposal is actually fairer to thieves.
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#191 lioka qiao

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

Well so long as the condition is managed well then it would be a good countermeasure to stealth.  If it only lasts as long as the current revealed does then it would be fine.  It would have to not stack on visible players too and have a hard maximum duration of 3 seconds.

#192 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:35 PM

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 11 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

I was playing a high crit and power rifle warrior in WvW the other day and facerolled almost everything. Including thieves.

That is because they were caught outside of their ability to escape and the rifle punishes those who cannot escape.

I play both a Warrior and a Thief.   The latter can be configured to do many things the former does only better.

My Theif would have a hard time with my Warrior because I have used my understanding of Thieves to present a difficult target for them, so in reality a senisble their will leave my warrior be for easier pickings.  But the Thief would win every time if they actually fought assuming more or less equal players because it can negate the Warrior's strengths if played with a minimum of care.

The issue is not that they are is OP per se it is that there are gaping holes in the game mechanics to hard counter the amazing damage mitigation and battlefield control they have in addition to immense DPS.  The Thief is very well designed and thought out and the other professions are lacking because the designers failed to consider how to incorporate more challenging mechanics.

Compounding the issue is the culling the game has.  This needs to either be fixed or acknowledged and compensated for but ideally fixed.

#193 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

View PostLunacy Polish, on 14 January 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

That is because they were caught outside of their ability to escape and the rifle punishes those who cannot escape.

I play both a Warrior and a Thief.   The latter can be configured to do many things the former does only better.

My Theif would have a hard time with my Warrior because I have used my understanding of Thieves to present a difficult target for them, so in reality a senisble their will leave my warrior be for easier pickings.  But the Thief would win every time if they actually fought assuming more or less equal players because it can negate the Warrior's strengths if played with a minimum of care.

The issue is not that they are is OP per se it is that there are gaping holes in the game mechanics to hard counter the amazing damage mitigation and battlefield control they have in addition to immense DPS.  The Thief is very well designed and thought out and the other professions are lacking because the designers failed to consider how to incorporate more challenging mechanics.

Compounding the issue is the culling the game has.  This needs to either be fixed or acknowledged and compensated for but ideally fixed.

Yes if the thief is fighting anything other than a Rifle Warrior. Rifle #5 is enough to stop a thief's burst. Switch to Sword/Greatsword for the escape, heal up, then re-engage (or not).

#194 timidshadow

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:22 PM

Gotta love them Thieves =P




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