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#31 Alaroxr

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

"Omggg... Dermn Thievf used dem shadox refugle... It hars a big rerd circle... Thievf couldernt be iernside it courd heee?!?!"

And then the Warrior walks up and spams '1' in the circle while you walk around him giggling.

#32 Gerroh

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 25 December 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

Guardian is OP in melee.
Ranged guardian is meant to be more support..even if staff sucks at the moment.


...What?
In what sense or situation does guardian staff suck? It's the only weapon I've found consitently useful in both pve and wvw. It's not a 1v1 weapon, for sure, but if you're with a group the staff has everything you need.

#33 Gorwe

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

Is this PvP or PvE related?

If former->not interested.
If latter->please do elaborate more.

#34 Lordkrall

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostGorwe, on 25 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Is this PvP or PvE related?

If former->not interested.
If latter->please do elaborate more.

Most likely PvP, seeing as the main focus/reason for balance should always be PvP.

#35 Ncyphe

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostAtticus, on 25 December 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

You're funny, and deluded if you think that initiative + no skill cooldowns isn't he best resource system in the game, In fact if you believe that then I wonder if you've played any other classes at all. But clearly I'm just bringing up non-issues... so lets go to the 28 page thread on the forums debating these "non issues".

https://forum-en.gui...eedback/page/28

Funny too, I looked around the other classes forums and I couldn't seem to find anything like that there, but yea lets go with I'm just making baseless claims and there is no reason that thread is exists in the thief section alone. Also stop trying to play the martyr when you say "failure to properly use your initiative can leave you in a really bad situation" what you really mean is you would have to use stealth and retreat until you regen some initiative and try again, must be nice to be able to have so much control of when and how you engage in combat, I wouldn't know of course since most classes don't get to enjoy anything as defining as stealth.

I've got a level 80 engineer and a level 78 thief, and am currently working on an elementalist.  I've played several classes, and Thieves have a lot of cons to them, as some other have commented in this thread, already.  The thing is, stealth is very short, and not always readily available.  If a thief blows all of his initiative to kill some one, then the target's buddies suddenly appears around the corner, he's screwed.

Just because the class plays very differently from other classes doesn't make it OP.  It's a hard class to play that can be very enjoyable if you learn how to play it right.  In the wrong hands, a thief is nothing but cannon fodder.

#36 The Shadow

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 25 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

While maintaining the best mobility in the game and the best defensive ability in the game: stealth. Not to mention, if you can kill your enemy in a matter of seconds, a dead enemy can do no harm.

Stealth means enemies have no idea of where you are and have to guess. It means you control the battle, hands down, no questions asked. When you want to be in melee, you can get in melee. When you want to be at a range, you can be at a range. When you want to burst, you can burst without fear. When you want to run, you can run.

No, it means people need to l2p.

I mean seriously. Where's a Thief in stealth gunna go?

Pretty easy to predict really, if you can't, that's down to yo sucking.

View PostAlaroxr, on 25 December 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

And then the Warrior walks up and spams '1' in the circle while you walk around him giggling.

Maybe they should use one of their many PBAoE skills then?

Or pull out Bow? Hammer?

Also, the Warriors I Lol at still hit me, just not enough times to make a massive difference.

Think about a Guard who could push you out of SR?

Or an Ele/ Ranger/ Enginer who's AoE radius encompasses the whole of SR?

No matter what you think/ say.. There will always be multiple ways for different classes to completely own a Thief in stealth. They just need to know how. Fortunately most people are stupid which makes it easy for Thieves. It's not the class that's the issue, it's the sup-bar people playing every other class who are daunted/ psychologically effected by "ER MAH GERRRD, WHERE HEE GOOO??!?!?!?!"

Edited by The Shadow, 25 December 2012 - 04:21 PM.


#37 Matsy

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Stealth shouldn't be in the game or at least it can only last maybe 5 seconds with a long cooldown (and I mean long....)
I hated rogues in WoW because of stealth, its just the most stupid mechanic to have when ever you want, it gives you so many advantages its not even funny.  It might be predictable in some cases but that doesn't remove the fact that the thief controls the battle and if you have no way to counter them (cooldowns, different builds etc), you are dead and there is practically nothing you can do about it.
Yes I'm one of them guys.

Btw, I dont PvP in Gw2, done alittle WvW and they are just plain annoying to "try" to deal with and most the time even up with me dead because they just appear out of no where, burst me, stealth again, maybe I get a few dots on them or something, they come back with full health out of no where burst me again and at this point I'm most likely dead.  Maybe I'm just a baddie though who needs to l2p.

Edited by Matsy, 25 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.


#38 Alaroxr

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

No, it means people need to l2p.

Pretty easy to predict really, if you can't, that's down to yo sucking.

You're absolutely right. Everything is balanced, it's just always a L2P issue. For example, if someone can hit ENTER and kill everyone on the map, it's a L2P issue because you should know to log off.

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

I mean seriously. Where's a Thief in stealth gunna go?

Wherever he wants to go. Behind you, next to you, run away, behind a rock, to your left, to your right, 35 degrees NW, 48 degrees SE.

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Maybe they should use one of their many PBAoE skills then?

Or pull out Bow? Hammer?

Also, the Warriors I Lol at still hit me, just not enough times to make a massive difference.

So you're saying that countering Thieves is easy, for example a Warrior can use PBAoE (even though Stealth loses target) or Bow/Hammer (meaning you're saying you have to have either of these to fight Thieves). But wait... you're also saying that even IF a Warrior still hits you, it doesn't make a difference?

You're saying that it's possible to counter, and then the next sentence you say "Lol... just not enough times to make a massive difference". Thanks for agreeing with me.

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

No matter what you think/ say.. There will always be multiple ways for different classes to completely own a Thief in stealth. They just need to know how. Fortunately most people are stupid which makes it easy for Thieves. It's not the class that's the issue, it's the sup-bar people playing every other class who are daunted/ psychologically effected by "ER MAH GERRRD, WHERE HEE GOOO??!?!?!?!"

So, you're saying that Thieves are actually underpowered, and that almost everyone who doesn't play a Thief is just stupid. You heard it here folks.

Edited by Alaroxr, 25 December 2012 - 04:52 PM.


#39 Silvercat18

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostMatsy, on 25 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Stealth shouldn't be in the game or at least it can only last maybe 5 seconds with a long cooldown (and I mean long....)
I hated rogues in WoW because of stealth, its just the most stupid mechanic to have when ever you want, it gives you so many advantages its not even funny.  It might be predictable in some cases but that doesn't remove the fact that the thief controls the battle and if you have no way to counter them (cooldowns, different builds etc), you are dead.
Yes I'm one of them guys.

I could kill thieves in wow, mainly as AOE was a good means to reveal them. They had abilities to wipe it out, but it required some thought on their part. The lesson was that if a thief was around, you blasted the area to hell and that usually kept them at bay. Chances are they had performed an initial attack, so you knew they were there and they had had a fair chance to get a kill, so it worked out. Fighting thieves meant they had the advantage initially and if they didnt use it well, they could either reset the fight, taking a risk, or move on to another target. The same thing applies to the stealth class in team fortress, the spy, who has that choice.

Thieves in GW2 dont need to make that choice as they can sustain their attack and AOE does not reveal them. Once a thief targets you, you cant even count on friends to assist you, as often they wont even realise you are under attack. They are both invisible and intangible and even when the area is turned into the surface of the sun with AOE, its a rare day that the thief will even be exposed for more than a second. Even with successful targetting, incoming shots are often ignored, as they go into the air and then do not connect. They really can dodge bullets.

When a thief is after you, you run, basically. Then you keep running as six or so of your allies desperately try to stamp them out. Where are the flares and the things that should make an area "you cant walk here" for thieves? They werent very good in warcraft, but the anti stealth methods did at least let you cower in an area for a short time while the thief pulled back. They gave you time to think or a way to smoke thieves out if you were lucky. Its like hitting a rat with a stick....unlikely to hit but a damned sight better than nothing and nothing is all we've got.

Edited by Silvercat18, 25 December 2012 - 04:56 PM.


#40 Lordkrall

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

Oh, so Thieves can do massive 1 hit kill skills while still in stealth nowdays?
When was that added?

#41 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

No matter what you think/ say.. There will always be multiple ways for different classes to completely own a Thief in stealth. They just need to know how. Fortunately most people are stupid which makes it easy for Thieves. It's not the class that's the issue, it's the sup-bar people playing every other class who are daunted/ psychologically effected by "ER MAH GERRRD, WHERE HEE GOOO??!?!?!?!"

The results I am achieving with a thief are completely above the skill level I am able to showcase with other classes.
Clearly, the issue is that each and every single time I play a thief I play against shitty players, but when I play other classes, each and every single I play against players who aren't shit.

Clearly.

#42 Lordkrall

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostProtoss, on 25 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The results I am achieving with a thief are completely above the skill level I am able to showcase with other classes.
Clearly, the issue is that each and every single time I play a thief I play against shitty players, but when I play other classes, each and every single I play against players who aren't shit.

Clearly.

Or maybe Thief is just easier to be "good" with than other professions? A skilled player would own you no matter what profession you played.

#43 Xentin

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

Wondering when people will start to QQ about eles instead of Thiefs:
https://www.youtube....h?v=tuSwyvbkQEU

#44 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 25 December 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Or maybe Thief is just easier to be "good" with than other professions? A skilled player would own you no matter what profession you played.
Which obviously brings up the question, how good are actually the players that are defending the thief? Maybe they just THINK they are good because the thief absolutely fails to provide shit-ass players with the feedback that they are, in fact, shit-ass.

#45 Kaguchan

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:48 PM

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 25 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Here is one MMO standard, Anet adopted 100%, letting the pvp tail wag the pve dog.  All this rigamarole to 'balance PVP' when most players spend 99% of their time in PVE and many never pvp.  It is sad to see they shackled themselves to this.

His and/or the devs clear love child is the Elementalist and they nerf every other class so as to not be more powerful than this squishy class.  The number of attacks and conditions in the ele's arsenal is astounding compared to the paltry tool set given to the warrior.

wat

#46 The Shadow

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

View PostAlaroxr, on 25 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

snip

I'm not saying everything is balanced. I just don't agree with the (not-so general anymore) consensus that it's the Thief that is problem and not a few other classes that are at fault/ poorly designed.

It's easy to predict a Thief's movement. I've played Thief over 2000 hours, I know all the tricks. Maybe that's why I find countering Thieves on every other class I play extremely easy whereas you struggle. Is that a L2P issue? Yep. If I, as well as other people can do it, why can't you? It can't be down to gear or skill-choice since everyone is on relatively equal footing there. Key word relatively.

Please bare in mind, Thief isn't the only class I play, it just happens to be the one class I play the most because I enjoy it. Doesn't mean I want Thief to be superior to any other class, I'm all for balance, I try very hard to remain neutral. But what you have to appreciate is the fact that understanding other classes comes into the balance. I sometimes encounter other classes I simply can't kill. Means I should probably study/ play that class some more instead of QQ-ing. People are very happy to blame the Thief when in fact there are larger issues at play.

I agree with you to an extent on the subject of Warriors though. They are slightly at a disadvantage when countering Thieves in comparison to other classes. They have less access to AoE/ knock-backs than other classes. Longbow would decimate a Thief in stealth because the radius is huge and it hits pretty damn hard.. Warriors don't usually use Longbow in PvP though, arguably because it takes a lot of skill to use Longbow on Warrior properly. That makes it more difficult but not impossible. Does that mean a Warrior can't significantly hurt a Thief in stealth? No.. It means they haven't learnt to yet.

Again though, Thief isn't the only class that has access to Stealth. All classes that can stealth get de-targetted. But I don't see half as many people whining about the other classes.

Thieves are under-powered. Extremely so. The sad thing is people don't understand why. We are a burst class and we can't do anything other than that well. We are stuck in a DPS role and that's great for certain purposes, but there are many situations (mainly large group play like in WvW) where we just can't do anything that's that useful.. and some of you will just say Daggerstorm/ Venom share.. but that's not bloody useful. We aren't as versatile as some of the other classes and we aren't the best at DPS either. I find that to be a fundamental issue. Nerf our DPS and increase our usefulness. I'm totally for that change.

I mean just look at Ele. Is that balanced class? Mobility, self/ group support/ DPS/ Bunker/ etc etc etc.. But people are complaining about Thieves... Lol. Like someone else once said; I hope Anet can tell the difference between QQ and worthwhile critcism.


View PostProtoss, on 25 December 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The results I am achieving with a thief are completely above the skill level I am able to showcase with other classes.
Clearly, the issue is that each and every single time I play a thief I play against shitty players, but when I play other classes, each and every single I play against players who aren't shit.

Clearly.

Thief is an easy class to play not an easy class to master.


View PostProtoss, on 25 December 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Which obviously brings up the question, how good are actually the players that are defending the thief? Maybe they just THINK they are good because the thief absolutely fails to provide shit-ass players with the feedback that they are, in fact, shit-ass.

I see this post as being beneath me so I wont reply. I could, but I wont, bigger man and whatnot. It is Christmas after all :)

#47 Runkleford

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

Thieves are no doubt VERY squishy and when my attention isn't focused elsewhere (i.e. I'm not fighting SOMEONE else) I can fight off a thief with my Engineer the vast majority of the time. Notice I said "fight off", meaning that I can get their health VERY low to the point where they have to run away from me and the fight to which point they stealth away and they're gone. But once I have my back turned, they're back full healed and bam they have me down.

For those who keep saying thieves are fine because they're squishy, no, no they are not fine. Stealth is an insanely good strategic mechanic. When you get to dictate when you want to engage or disengage a fight then you have a huge advantage. Anyone who argues otherwise is in serious denial. The element of surprise is a big advantage to have to overcome even a superior enemy. And having a reliable escape route makes stealth even more powerful.

So while thieves are definitely squishy, it's pretty much mitigated by stealth. Any decent player can easily take advantage of this, it's why most thieves go for high burst because they know that their fragility is easily compensated by stealth. Thieves control the fight without even needing CC abilities.

#48 Liquidzoil

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

So it seems ANet are still sticking to their class philosophies. I think all we can do is just wait and see where this goes and if it fits their class philosophy descriptions. They said that warriors are not as good as rangers in ranged combat so they'll probably nerf the warrior's rifle/longbow skills. Can't say much for the other classes but as for the thief, since they are not planning to nerf their damage and stealth, maybe they'll make them more fragile.  


View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Thief is an easy class to play not an easy class to master.
Even a dog can do it.


#49 Kuruptz2

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Thieves are under-powered. Extremely so. The sad thing is people don't understand why. We are a burst class and we can't do anything other than that well. We are stuck in a DPS role and that's great for certain purposes, but there are many situations (mainly large group play like in WvW) where we just can't do anything that's that useful.. and some of you will just say Daggerstorm/ Venom share.. but that's not bloody useful. We aren't as versatile as some of the other classes and we aren't the best at DPS either. I find that to be a fundamental issue. Nerf our DPS and increase our usefulness. I'm totally for that change.

I mean just look at Ele. Is that balanced class? Mobility, self/ group support/ DPS/ Bunker/ etc etc etc.. But people are complaining about Thieves... Lol. Like someone else once said; I hope Anet can tell the difference between QQ and worthwhile critcism.



do you mean elementalists should be nerfed? or change the whole proffesion so they cant spec for group support and etc spec etc spec and etc etc becuse everyone must be like thief or?


Sure give elementalists permanent stealths

Edited by Kuruptz2, 25 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.


#50 RaoulDukeHST

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 25 December 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

They should do something about Guardian virtues, no one ever use their traits on them.
lol dude,virtues are so good,kick ass tree line

#51 Gilles VI

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

View PostSilvercat18, on 25 December 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I could kill thieves in wow, mainly as AOE was a good means to reveal them. They had abilities to wipe it out, but it required some thought on their part. The lesson was that if a thief was around, you blasted the area to hell and that usually kept them at bay. Chances are they had performed an initial attack, so you knew they were there and they had had a fair chance to get a kill, so it worked out. Fighting thieves meant they had the advantage initially and if they didnt use it well, they could either reset the fight, taking a risk, or move on to another target. The same thing applies to the stealth class in team fortress, the spy, who has that choice.

Thieves in GW2 dont need to make that choice as they can sustain their attack and AOE does not reveal them. Once a thief targets you, you cant even count on friends to assist you, as often they wont even realise you are under attack. They are both invisible and intangible and even when the area is turned into the surface of the sun with AOE, its a rare day that the thief will even be exposed for more than a second. Even with successful targetting, incoming shots are often ignored, as they go into the air and then do not connect. They really can dodge bullets.

When a thief is after you, you run, basically. Then you keep running as six or so of your allies desperately try to stamp them out. Where are the flares and the things that should make an area "you cant walk here" for thieves? They werent very good in warcraft, but the anti stealth methods did at least let you cower in an area for a short time while the thief pulled back. They gave you time to think or a way to smoke thieves out if you were lucky. Its like hitting a rat with a stick....unlikely to hit but a damned sight better than nothing and nothing is all we've got.

AoE still hits, even when stealthed..

I always play bunker guardian in tPvP, and 99% of the thieves are so damn easy.
They think because they go stealthed they are invincible..
Well boom, meet my symbols, or mighty blow.

And people complaining about thieves in WvW, you got a point.
Because of the culling issue that works in their advantage they're pretty strong atm.

#52 The Shadow

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostLiquidzoil, on 25 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

So it seems ANet are still sticking to their class philosophies. I think all we can do is just wait and see where this goes and if it fits their class philosophy descriptions. They said that warriors are not as good as rangers in ranged combat so they'll probably nerf the warrior's rifle/longbow skills. Can't say much for the other classes but as for the thief, since they are not planning to nerf their damage and stealth, maybe they'll make them more fragile.  
Even a dog can do it.


I can pull out a video from September of Rangers owning everything with Greatsword.

What's your point?

Outdated videos on youtube in SPvP dictate the balance and meta?

As an aside, I find D/D Ele easier to play than Thief.

Want me to take a viedo of me randomly bashing buttons with D/D ele and still kill shit?

Anyone can kill bad players in SPvP with any class just as easily :) Anyone can film a montage, sticking the clips of the noobs they do kill into a video. The good players who happen to take goods videos are for the most part left un-edited and include a variety of combat, not just face-rolling clearly bad players with bad builds.

Edited by The Shadow, 25 December 2012 - 09:23 PM.


#53 Kuruptz2

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I can pull out a video from September of Rangers owning everything with Greatsword.

What's your point?

Outdated videos on youtube in SPvP dictate the balance and meta?

As an aside, I find D/D Ele easier to play than Thief.

Want me to take a video of me randomly bashing buttons with D/D and still kill shit?

Yes..

Yes i do

#54 The Shadow

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

View PostKuruptz2, on 25 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Yes..

Yes i do

Too bad, my PC is too slow to screen-record and be able to play GW2.

If you buy me a new PC I'd do it gladly.

#55 Kuruptz2

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Too bad, my PC is too slow to screen-record and be able to play GW2.

If you buy me a new PC I'd do it gladly.

if you want i can record my thief soloing a Zerg of 103people all died

#56 The Shadow

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

View PostKuruptz2, on 25 December 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

if you want i can record my thief soloing a Zerg of 103people all died

Please do, I might be able to learn something.

I'm a Thief commander and I struggle to stay alive in a large zerg for any real length of time. So enlighten me please.

#57 Shiren

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 25 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Immune to projectiles? What are you smoking dude? How does a Thief achieve immunity to projectiles? We have one skill that blocks projectiles that most often isn't even equipped.. We have no retaliation/ reflection.. But you complain about Thieves? As opposed to Guardians, Engineers and Warriors? I'm sorry what?! You complain about Thief regeneration, again, umadbro?! Look at Elementalist or Engineer, they have waaaaaaaaay more access to regeneration/ healing than we do. We have 2 main forms of regeneration, a short regen after Hide in Shadows, otherwise we have to trait 30 points into Shadow Arts. As for Assassin's Reward/ Leeching venoms, they aren't really worth taking simply because there are better traits and leeching venoms forces you to change your utility as well as invest in Deadly Arts.

And we get to position ourselves perfectly before initiating combat? Sure, against bad players. The good players who know anything about Thieves know how to predict our positioning which forces us to be more un-predictable and less capable of dealing damage. I mean it's not this hard.

"Omggg... Dermn Thievf used dem shadox refugle... It hars a big rerd circle... Thievf couldernt be iernside it courd heee?!?!"

What I find to be an issue is this;

"they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters."

I find this highly debatable.


It sounds like you don't use projectiles or understand how they work against a stealthed target, which I find surprising. Without being able to target a thief, you need to shoot your projectile in the exact line and location where the thief is standing/moving. Even a bad thief can dodge roll out of that line assuming you were lucky enough to his it at any one point during their stealth.

As I said before, ranger condition DPS (because they have terrible AoE outside of the greatsword or traps) is limited to bleed. You can poison, but it's not really a DPS stat (nor is it as reliable) but to get bleeding stacks from a ranger you need to have superior positioning and maintain it. Even then, your primary DPS counter to a thief (according to Jonathon the counter to thieves which makes them fragil is AoE or condition stacks) can be cleansed because it's only one condition which is harder to inflict for a ranger than most other condition builds.

I have no issue with other classes and their regen because I can see and hurt them the entire time, or react to their presence through snares and positioning myself, I have no idea where a stealthed thief is, I can only guess and even with intelligent guesses the reality is, this situation always strongly favours the thief. My pet doesn't sit useless by my side the entire time (unlike the player, the pet won't thrash around trying to hit a stealthed thief, the pet won't dodge roll or use skills to become difficult to hit for a thief with Cloak and Dagger, it's another free stealth) it actually helps against other classes. As a mechanic, stealth completely breaks the pet AI (which also results in the pet returning to the ranger and thus not contributing to the fight immedietly once the thief reappears and is targeted because the pet has to run back to it again, and that's assuming it will actually land an attack once it's in range) and has two specific counters according to Jonathan Sharp, AoE and condition stacks. Unless the ranger runs traps (so a single ranger build) or possibly the greatsword, you don't have access to AoE and good luck stacking bleeds on a thief attacking you.

Shadow Refuge is one of several sources of stealth, you try hitting a thief with a bow inside shadow refuge. On top of that, the pet is once again useless as long as the thief remains in stealthed (and because of Cloak and Dagger, the pet actually makes rangers an easier target for easy stealth). Any time a thief does get countered in any way, whether it be through luck, skill or poor positioning (and the odds are stacked in their favour for this not to happen, thieves control the battle especially when you can't stack conditions quickly or have access to reliable AoE), they will just stealth, run, regen then re-engage when it's favourable to them. There is a reason you see dozens of thieves every day roaming WvW looking to gank opponents and you almost never see any other class doing the same thing and if you do, it's never in the same numbers.

Stealth requires no skill to get an incredible amount of power out of it, it only gets more powerful with greater skill. Countering stealth is build dependant and requires a much higher skill cap to pull off compared to the effort put into stealthing.

#58 Gorwe

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

Ah I get it. This is for the boring mode. Why is PvP even present in RP Game is beyond me. 90% of us true RPers are here for the stories(both invented and actual Campaign stories) and PvE things. Very few of us that support the very foundations of this whole damned genre actually Like to RP in the PvP setting.

Maybe they'll eventually focus on PvE-quality style just Like in Nightfall(<3 <3 Nightfall <3 <3). I'd rather create 5 alts and level them all rather than play PvP in my RP Game(yes even if that means seeing the same story again). That's why Shooters/Strategies of Starcraft calibre and MOBAs exist-to fill your PvP needs.

Meh whatever. Bla bla bla ummmmm. I am finished!

#59 sanctuaire

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:01 AM

i just hope they continue on with the pve-pvp skill splits.

thieves are getting a hard time enough already getting on groups for hi lvl fractals/ dungeons
since they 'lack group support' for pve.
groups *only* looking for heavies (guards/warr) in LA are very real ~_~

.

#60 matsif

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

View Postsanctuaire, on 26 December 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

i just hope they continue on with the pve-pvp skill splits.

thieves are getting a hard time enough already getting on groups for hi lvl fractals/ dungeons
since they 'lack group support' for pve.
groups *only* looking for heavies (guards/warr) in LA are very real ~_~

there should have been a split from day one.  PvE and PvP (and WvW as a subset of PvP) are completely different animals when it comes to balance.  Changing skills that work fine for PvE because the same skill is OP in PvP isn't good in my mind, I hate it when builds get nerfed in PvE due to PvP problems.  The same can be said if you swap PvE and PvP around in that scenario, nerfing a PvP build because it is OP in PvE is just as bad.

as to the comments on the classes from anet...these seem really old to me.  and I laughed at plenty of them.

Edited by matsif, 26 December 2012 - 12:07 AM.





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