Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

Class Balance Philosophies


  • Please log in to reply
193 replies to this topic

#91 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

View PostLiquidzoil, on 26 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Get 2 people who have no experience in GW2 and make the other person play a thief and the other the class of that person's choosing. Make them fight and I assure you, that thief will win all the time. I'm pretty sure the other guy who's not playing a thief will not even get a kill. You may not agree because you main a thief but It is an auto-win class. Like I said, a dog can pick it up and WIN.

Oh god... Here we go again. I don't want to go all through the self pity of the thieves again.

That's quite possibly true. But still, who cares which beginner wins 1v1? GW2 is a team-game, people seem to forget that. But additionally; Take 2 good players, one who is a Thief and who isn't. See who wins a 1v1. Not that it would matter, because GW2 is a  team game and isn't balanced towards 1v1. Look at GW1. Who cared about 1v1?

You think good Thieves like Lowell couldn't pick up another class and do well in SPvP against random scrubs...?

Another issue is the fact that Anet's balancing decisions have to consider good players as well as those that are bad/ new. That's part of the issue with balancing. This was mentioned and expanded on in of the "state of the game" videos. Maybe have a listen.

Also, I'm all for Anet nerfing our "Deeps" and "stealthz0rs" providing they make up for this in some other way and make us more useful to a team. I just don't think they are capable of doing so without completely ruining the class.

Again, I feel the need to re-iterate, because you, as well as others, clearly still don't understand. Why whine about 1v1 outcomes when the game isn't a 1v1 game in any single aspect of the game and isn't balanced towards 1v1? WvW is squads of people. S/PvP is teams of people. 1v1 doesn't ever come into that. Even point holders/ cappers call for help. Maybe if they ever release a dueling system that is serious the balance for 1v1 will have to be re-considered.

Also you think I'm whining about Thief. I'm not, it's valid concern. You whine about our 1v1 capabilities, fine, whatever, boring subject, you can counter them if you wish otherwise you can just QQ about it on forums but the point that you're not considering let alone QQing about is how bad Thieves are in a group setting, which is concerning. The fact you think Thieves are fine in a group setting is deeply distressing. The fact that there are other like-minded individuals such as yourself is a cause for great and genuine concern for me as a Thief who cares more about team-play than beating bad players in 1v1 situations. Most times in WvW I ignore 1v1 opportunities.. 1v1 dick measuring contests don't benefit my server. Capping supply camps/ Sniping Dolly's/ Commanding do benefit my server. It's just a shame that I have to command as a corpse as opposed to contributing.

#92 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

View PostMinu, on 26 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

A bit like every class under threat of the nerf bat due to manic bitching, in every MMO out there.

I would ask to all the hard done by none thieves out there who hate the fact that they cannot always beat someone 1V1, how many maxed out L80 characters do you have in full exotics?  You really need to get a grip of playing other classes, against one another, to actually know the pros and cons of each one, rather than just wail like schoolkids with skinned knees in the playground.

Three: Warrior, Ranger, Thief.

Dismissing criticism as "manic bitching" only makes your reply seem like a kneejerk "I like playing this way, please don't hurt me" response.

#93 Minu

Minu

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 60 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostNalano, on 26 December 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Three: Warrior, Ranger, Thief.

Dismissing criticism as "manic bitching" only makes your reply seem like a kneejerk "I like playing this way, please don't hurt me" response.

Same number as me then, though I have an engineer as opposed to a warrior.  To be fair, the whining is basically saying as much...I don't like the way some people play thieves, please stop them hurting me or my rattle is going out of the pram.

You understand the point I am sure.  On the times where my ranger has encountered a thief who want to kill me, I can very often, kill the thief, or at least escape the encounter, and almost all the time on my engineer.

When I play my thief (stealth survival build) I die very little, but I also do not kill very often 1v1.  My job is to break supply, annoy and slow down reinforcements etc, reinforcements chasing me around is as good as killing them as long as they are not rushing to reinforce SM as my server is about to cap it.  High dps glass cannon builds can be taken down by any class, so long as you survive the initial attack and are actually watching whats going on around you.  They are exceedingly weak.  Spacial awareness is key to fighting thieves, in fact, in my opinion, to any form of WvW combat.

The main problem the thief has is that the people whining, see 2 types of thief, and assume, incorrectly that they are one and same thing.  Please all feel free to roll one to L80 and see for yourselves.

Edited by Minu, 26 December 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#94 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Another issue is the fact that Anet's balancing decisions have to consider good players as well as those that are bad/ new. That's part of the issue with balancing. This was mentioned and expanded on in of the "state of the game" videos. Maybe have a listen.

Which then brings up the question - what does the thief bringing to high-end PvP?
If we have a game in which the devs are unable to balance all the options, it is better for the health of the game, if the options that can not be balanced are underpowered. These options then fail to see play and they do not cause issues.

So looking at the thief in the game's 3 modes, we can see that:
1. the guy will be fine in PvE. He's there to provide flavour and he'll be able to achieve that even if he is trashed. Not only that, A.Net can always split skills, removing PvE completely out of this question.
2. low-end PvP. The guy's insanely high floor isn't doing good things for 8v8 hot-join. It's one of the most un-fun options to play against and the mode would benefit greatly by having the guy trashed.
3. which then brings us to high-end PvP. And as mentioned before, what would high-end PvP lose by having the thief's floor nerfed to the ground? And, what would happen if the nerf went too far and the thief would completely lose its high-end PvP viability? Is trashing low-end PvP worth it for the sake of keeping the thief in high-end PvP?

#95 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

View PostProtoss, on 26 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Which then brings up the question - what does the thief bringing to high-end PvP?
If we have a game in which the devs are unable to balance all the options, it is better for the health of the game, if the options that can not be balanced are underpowered. These options then fail to see play and they do not cause issues.

So looking at the thief in the game's 3 modes, we can see that:
1. the guy will be fine in PvE. He's there to provide flavour and he'll be able to achieve that even if he is trashed. Not only that, A.Net can always split skills, removing PvE completely out of this question.
2. low-end PvP. The guy's insanely high floor isn't doing good things for 8v8 hot-join. It's one of the most un-fun options to play against and the mode would benefit greatly by having the guy trashed.
3. which then brings us to high-end PvP. And as mentioned before, what would high-end PvP lose by having the thief's floor nerfed to the ground? And, what would happen if the nerf went too far and the thief would completely lose its high-end PvP viability? Is trashing low-end PvP worth it for the sake of keeping the thief in high-end PvP?

1) Arguable, people already don't want Thieves in parties.
2) In SPvP you don't need to win 1v1s for your team to win. Most of the time it's about running from point to point capping/ neutralizing  that's how you get top player, not by killing bad players in 1v1 situations so what does it matter?
3) Is it worth nerfing Thief in low-end PvP and in turn making Thief useless in TPvP? No. The Thief isn't OP in TPvP. Thief is very limited. Ask anyone. Not to mention Thief just isn't that useful in TPvP, arguably the best roamer due to mobility but that's it, we can't do anything else. Yet you look at Ele or Engie and they can simultaneously fulfill many important roles.

You neglect to mention WvW where Thieves need buffing dramatically in such a group setting. Not for dick-measuring with randoms but in an actual zerg. One popular argument I've heard is; "WvW isn't supposed to be balanced!"

Well fine I guess.

Edited by The Shadow, 26 December 2012 - 05:34 PM.


#96 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

1) Arguable, people already don't want Thieves in parties.
2) In SPvP you don't need to win 1v1s for your team to win. Most of the time it's about running from point to point capping/ neutralizing  that's how you get top player, not by killing bad players in 1v1 situations so what does it matter?
3) Is it worth nerfing Thief in low-end PvP and in turn making Thief useless in TPvP? No. The Thief isn't OP in TPvP. Thief is very limited. Ask anyone. Not to mention Thief just isn't that useful in TPvP, arguably the best roamer due to mobility but that's it, we can't do anything else. Yet you look at Ele or Engie and they can simultaneously fulfill many important roles.

You neglect to mention WvW where Thieves need buffing dramatically in such a group setting. Not for dick-measuring with randoms but in an actual zerg. One popular argument I've heard is; "WvW isn't supposed to be balanced!"

Well fine I guess.

You'd place WvW balancing (the reason why I didn't mention WvW specifically is because everyone should understand it's PvE) over low-end structured?

I'd say that explains a lot.

#97 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostProtoss, on 26 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

You'd place WvW balancing (the reason why I didn't mention WvW specifically is because everyone should understand it's PvE) over low-end structured?

I'd say that explains a lot.

It's more co-ordinated/ organized than low-end PvP so yeah.

I wouldn't say it's PvE or PvP, it should be balanced as an entity of it's own.

#98 EphraimGlass

EphraimGlass

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 189 posts
  • Guild Tag:[YUM]
  • Server:Maguuma

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostCruxisinhibitor, on 25 December 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

The necro paragraph seems like they ran out of things to say and just pulled that out of their ***. Truth is, the class roles and flavors are not distinct enough. The whole system is homogenized. I laughed after reading this. They must be delusional.

This thread has turned into a critique of thieves but I nonetheless wanted to address this particular point from the first page.  First, a few comments to establish background:  I come from a purely PvE perspective.  I build my characters with team play in mind.  I almost always play with at least one partner, so I actually get to focus on my role in the partnership.  I have five characters, all of which I've played at least to level 30.

Having said that, I think that the class roles and flavours are very distinctive.  Some classes are, inevitably, better at some things than others.  No two classes, however, play each role in quite the same way.  So what if a Necromancer and a Guardian can both spec for DPS with a smattering of crowd control?  That very functional description doesn't capture how they accomplish those roles.  The nuance of play style required to get there is what makes those supposedly homogenous clases different.  Of course, you can say that because they can accomplish the same ends, they're not distinctive enough.  On one level that may be true but not on all levels - they accomplish things in different ways, navigate the field of combat in different ways, avoid harm in different ways.  Perhaps this doesn't matter to you but for a player like me, the discovery of that nuance is precisely what I enjoy most about playing five different classes.

Edited by EphraimGlass, 26 December 2012 - 05:50 PM.


#99 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:57 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

It's more co-ordinated/ organized than low-end PvP so yeah.

I wouldn't say it's PvE or PvP, it should be balanced as an entity of it's own.

You use PvE (versions of) skills in WvW.
You use PvP skills in hot-join.

#100 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostProtoss, on 26 December 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

You use PvE (versions of) skills in WvW.
You use PvP skills in hot-join.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

What I think it should be:

PvE should be PvE skills.
WvW should be WvW skills.
PvP should be PvP skill.

#101 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Yes, I'm aware of that.

What I think it should be:

PvE should be PvE skills.
WvW should be WvW skills.
PvP should be PvP skill.

Why not?
I mean, it's not like A.Net isn't failing at balancing the two categories already in the game! Let's add a third one!

The point is - if the thief should be balanced, it should be balanced with high-end PvP in mind. But since low-end PvP uses the same skill set, it needs to be looked at. Especially, when you have a class that is this problematic in low-end PvP, while also being quite irrelevant to high-end PvP (whatever is left of it).

#102 metalsazz

metalsazz

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

So what you more or less say is: "Make stealth completely worthless"?
Let them QQ, it funny as hell, and with anet's philosophies on the theif, we all know stealth stay like it is, most that will happen is they fixed the culling issue.

#103 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostProtoss, on 26 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Why not?
I mean, it's not like A.Net isn't failing at balancing the two categories already in the game! Let's add a third one!

The point is - if the thief should be balanced, it should be balanced with high-end PvP in mind. But since low-end PvP uses the same skill set, it needs to be looked at. Especially, when you have a class that is this problematic in low-end PvP, while also being quite irrelevant to high-end PvP (whatever is left of it).

A.net aren't failing per se, they've just never had a very good balance-philosophy. It was the same in GW1. But there were periods in GW1 where things were relatively balanced. At any rate the meta was in constant flux.

I don't agree that Thief is problematic in low-tier PvP.

You don't need to kill a Thief 1v1 to get points in SPvP. In fact I'd suggest not engaging in 1v1 at all. If you're just 1v1-ing for fun then surely it shouldn't matter if you win or lose. It's just fun to do?

And if you have your heart set on 1v1ing Thieves you can deal with them easily, you just need to be not shit.

Edited by The Shadow, 26 December 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#104 Runkleford

Runkleford

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 953 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostMinu, on 26 December 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

A bit like every class under threat of the nerf bat due to manic bitching, in every MMO out there.

I would ask to all the hard done by none thieves out there who hate the fact that they cannot always beat someone 1V1, how many maxed out L80 characters do you have in full exotics?  You really need to get a grip of playing other classes, against one another, to actually know the pros and cons of each one, rather than just wail like schoolkids with skinned knees in the playground.

You do realize that a significant chunk of players who complain about the thief have or already playing a thief already right? That's why there's so damn many of them. Especially in sPVP where you don't need a level 80 in full exotics in order to try one.

So far I haven't seen ANY of you thief apologists address the core problems of the stealth mechanic. It's the one mechanic with no hard counters and gets the most use out of the player's input, meaning that it's the mechanic that one can get the most potential out of in terms of engaging an opponent with the element of surprise, disengaging out of combat thus pretty much mitigating the fragility of the thief making it a profession where you can be both glass cannon but have high survivability due to stealth and the ability to position yourself without your enemy being aware of it. These are all really big strategic advantages to have and get the most use out of player skill whereas defenses like more toughness and more heath are passive and don't get any use from player input. I should know because while my main is an engineer, my second is a thief.

All of my tactics of using obstructions, line of sight and positioning to prevent  on my engineer to keep from taking too much damage work on my thief except a whole hell of a lot better when I'm stealthed so the argument that you can just guess where a stealthed thief is and hit them with AOE only works with bad thieves. Stealth is a terrible idea in a PVP game unless it's a game like Assassin's Creed where EVERYONE can stealth.

#105 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 26 December 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

This thread has turned into a critique of thieves but I nonetheless wanted to address this particular point from the first page.  First, a few comments to establish background:  I come from a purely PvE perspective.  I build my characters with team play in mind.  I almost always play with at least one partner, so I actually get to focus on my role in the partnership.  I have five characters, all of which I've played at least to level 30.

Having said that, I think that the class roles and flavours are very distinctive.  Some classes are, inevitably, better at some things than others.  No two classes, however, play each role in quite the same way.  So what if a Necromancer and a Guardian can both spec for DPS with a smattering of crowd control?  That very functional description doesn't capture how they accomplish those roles.  The nuance of play style required to get there is what makes those supposedly homogenous clases different.  Of course, you can say that because they can accomplish the same ends, they're not distinctive enough.  On one level that may be true but not on all levels - they accomplish things in different ways, navigate the field of combat in different ways, avoid harm in different ways.  Perhaps this doesn't matter to you but for a player like me, the discovery of that nuance is precisely what I enjoy most about playing five different classes.

You don't need much balance for PvE, because people are not competing. Therefore you're of a body of players that are the easiest to please and the least of anybody's concern.

Edited by Nalano, 26 December 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#106 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

A.net aren't failing per se, they've just never had a very good balance-philosophy. It was the same in GW1. But there were periods in GW1 where things were relatively balanced. At any rate the meta was in constant flux.

I don't agree that Thief is problematic in low-tier PvP.

You don't need to kill a Thief 1v1 to get points in SPvP. In fact I'd suggest not engaging in 1v1 at all. If you're just 1v1-ing for fun then surely it shouldn't matter if you win or lose. It's just fun to do?

And if you have your heart set on 1v1ing Thieves you can deal with them easily, you just need to be not shit.

Where did you get the impression that I am bitching about thieves because of 1v1?

#107 Minu

Minu

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 60 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

View PostRunkleford, on 26 December 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

You do realize that a significant chunk of players who complain about the thief have or already playing a thief already right? That's why there's so damn many of them. Especially in sPVP where you don't need a level 80 in full exotics in order to try one.

So far I haven't seen ANY of you thief apologists address the core problems of the stealth mechanic. It's the one mechanic with no hard counters and gets the most use out of the player's input, meaning that it's the mechanic that one can get the most potential out of in terms of engaging an opponent with the element of surprise, disengaging out of combat thus pretty much mitigating the fragility of the thief making it a profession where you can be both glass cannon but have high survivability due to stealth and the ability to position yourself without your enemy being aware of it. These are all really big strategic advantages to have and get the most use out of player skill whereas defenses like more toughness and more heath are passive and don't get any use from player input. I should know because while my main is an engineer, my second is a thief.

All of my tactics of using obstructions, line of sight and positioning to prevent  on my engineer to keep from taking too much damage work on my thief except a whole hell of a lot better when I'm stealthed so the argument that you can just guess where a stealthed thief is and hit them with AOE only works with bad thieves. Stealth is a terrible idea in a PVP game unless it's a game like Assassin's Creed where EVERYONE can stealth.

I do feel for your issues within sPVP.  Personally i have no interest in e-sports, I would rather do some real life sports and play a game for fun, WvW is a great outlet for that fun.  That said, i do appreciate and accept that some people are no good at real life sport and need computer sport to compensate, each to their own etc.

So i guess the issues are around, how do you balance any class for a game where everyone is the same, pumped to 80 with the same gear......sPVP, or WvW where people are using their real character, which they have developed and perhaps feel some empathy towards,  and playing a team game, where it's not about 1v1.  The 2 are very different animals.  Whichever is busiest, and has the most potential for cash shop purchases will be the one Anet focus towards.

Edited by Minu, 26 December 2012 - 09:00 PM.


#108 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

View PostProtoss, on 26 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Where did you get the impression that I am bitching about thieves because of 1v1?

Why else would you bitch about them?

We're pretty damn useless in zergs.

Not great in high-end skirmishes in TPvP. The second a Thief appears at a cap point where there's a skirmish everyone focuses the Thief down ASAP till they're dead or have to run away, which isn't much use. Yeah the argument can be made that providing the Thief doesn't die, he can come back and attempt to burst a priority target down.. but the chance of that actually making a massive impact on a coordinated team is very slim.

As for low-end PvP the victor of such skirmishes will generally win because they are ever so slightly more organized, even for a hot-join group. Regardless of a Thief being there or not. It's not like if there's a Thief on your team you will auto-face-roll the other team in all "equally" matched skirmishes.

So why the bitching? The only way in which I can see a Thief as being troublesome is when you're alone and at risk of being picked off without any kind of backup.. and then you just have to rely on yourself.

Edited by The Shadow, 26 December 2012 - 09:17 PM.


#109 Baron von Scrufflebutt

Baron von Scrufflebutt

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3318 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

Why would a guy that is able to become invisible and hits like a truck be useless in a game mode that forces players to stand on tiny spots?

#110 Runkleford

Runkleford

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 953 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

View PostMinu, on 26 December 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I do feel for your issues within sPVP.  Personally i have no interest in e-sports, I would rather do some real life sports and play a game for fun, WvW is a great outlet for that fun.  That said, i do appreciate and accept that some people are no good at real life sport and need computer sport to compensate, each to their own etc.

So i guess the issues are around, how do you balance any class for a game where everyone is the same, pumped to 80 with the same gear......sPVP, or WvW where people are using their real character, which they have developed and perhaps feel some empathy towards,  and playing a team game, where it's not about 1v1.  The 2 are very different animals.  Whichever is busiest, and has the most potential for cash shop purchases will be the one Anet focus towards.

I seriously laughed at loud at your post with it's veiled insulting tone implying that I'm no good at real life or sports and that I'm somehow too invested in an e-sport. It's hilarious because if you knew me in real life, an avid outdoors person who used to box, you'd take back your silly little jab. But even if I were a homebody geek, I find it funny that you can make such insults considering that YOU are on a gaming forum posting about class balance in a video game. Oh yes, you're not compensating at all.

As for your non question, it's way too vague and it's always an ongoing issue where balance is concerned. To dismiss the issues here with such an evasive argument, especially with your idiotic insult in the first paragraph, just shows that you have no interest in discussing balance here and have no interest in others' point of view, which you've hypocritically have told others to respect.

My attitude and opinion of stealth isn't just because I'm on the receiving end of it but also because I'd like my thief to be able to contribute more than just being  a hit and run type of profession. While it may be fun to play a gank and stealth type of playstyle that we currently have, I'd like something more engaging for my thief. I'd love it  if my thief were played in a way where I counter my opponent's moves and use combos in reaction to those moves instead of mostly spamming and stealthing.

But hey Minu, keep posting your inane posts where you make idiotic assumptions and avoid discussing the issues head on. You're just making your side of the argument look bad.

Edited by Runkleford, 26 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.


#111 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2278 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostRunkleford, on 26 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I seriously laughed at loud at your post with it's veiled insulting tone implying that I'm no good at real life or sports and that I'm somehow too invested in an e-sport. It's hilarious because if you knew me in real life, an avid outdoors person who used to box, you'd take back your silly little jab. But even if I were a homebody geek, I find it funny that you can make such insults considering that YOU are on a gaming forum posting about class balance in a video game. Oh yes, you're not compensating at all.

As for your non question, it's way too vague and it's always an ongoing issue where balance is concerned. To dismiss the issues here with such an evasive argument, especially with your idiotic insult in the first paragraph, just shows that you have no interest in discussing balance here and have no interest in others' point of view, which you've hypocritically have told others to respect.

My attitude and opinion of stealth isn't just because I'm on the receiving end of it but also because I'd like my thief to be able to contribute more than just being  a hit and run type of profession. While it may be fun to play a gank and stealth type of playstyle that we currently have, I'd like something more engaging for my thief. I'd love it  if my thief were played in a way where I counter my opponent's moves and use combos in reaction to those moves instead of mostly spamming and stealthing.

But hey Minu, keep posting your inane posts where you make idiotic assumptions and avoid discussing the issues head on. You're just making your side of the argument look bad.

You're asking for something that really isn't there.  Thieves or the rogue-archetype have always been leveraged as the sneak/burst type going back to D&D.  What thieves manly brought to the pen/paper scene were non-combative skill sets.  Thievery (real thievery), trap checks/disarms and the RP stuff.  Otherwise they may as well have just been squishier Fighter class, a pet-less, bow-less Ranger.

The problem in a game lacking such depth, is that there's not much need for any of that.  Heck, even WoW managed to incorporate the Rogue's disarm trap and other stealth skills into its PvE game every once in awhile.  Even had some nice class quests.

GW2 offers none of that.  No infiltration, no ninja'ing.  None of that mess.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#112 Runkleford

Runkleford

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 953 posts

Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:29 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 26 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

You're asking for something that really isn't there.  Thieves or the rogue-archetype have always been leveraged as the sneak/burst type going back to D&D.  What thieves manly brought to the pen/paper scene were non-combative skill sets.  Thievery (real thievery), trap checks/disarms and the RP stuff.  Otherwise they may as well have just been squishier Fighter class, a pet-less, bow-less Ranger.

The problem in a game lacking such depth, is that there's not much need for any of that.  Heck, even WoW managed to incorporate the Rogue's disarm trap and other stealth skills into its PvE game every once in awhile.  Even had some nice class quests.

GW2 offers none of that.  No infiltration, no ninja'ing.  None of that mess.

Oh I agree. The thief as it currently stands has no real place or value in the game. My suggestion was just something I threw out there more to illustrate how I would make the thief fit in more with how the game is.

#113 Anzuri

Anzuri

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 309 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Guild Tag:[HIRE]
  • Server:Ehmry Bay

Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostAneu, on 26 December 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Simple fix to stealth. Any damage recieved by a thief means their stealth breaks. If they have a dot on them when they go into stealth, if that dot ticks they break stealth, if they recieve fall damage, their stealth breaks, if they walk into an aoe and take damage, their stealth breaks.

Implement a 1s stealth debuff between stealths and double the init cost of heart seeker (or make it put a debuff on the thief which halfs their init regen for 5s stacks on duration) - job done.

Agree. That's how stealth has worked in most games as far as I know. Thieves are a stealth class and they are supposed to be punished if they perform actions that are too obvious. So if they are in stealth around you when you are swinging your hammer their stealth should break as obviously you now know they are there. But it appears that in GW2 the thief goes into a different dimension when it goes into stealth.

Stealth break on hit / taking damage: no idea why this was not implemented from the start isn't that how stealth is supposed to work?

Back on the topic I think the classes sorta feel like that, there are exceptions but they are close.

#114 Minu

Minu

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 60 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

View PostAnzuri, on 27 December 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Agree. That's how stealth has worked in most games as far as I know. Thieves are a stealth class and they are supposed to be punished if they perform actions that are too obvious. So if they are in stealth around you when you are swinging your hammer their stealth should break as obviously you now know they are there. But it appears that in GW2 the thief goes into a different dimension when it goes into stealth.

Stealth break on hit / taking damage: no idea why this was not implemented from the start isn't that how stealth is supposed to work?

Back on the topic I think the classes sorta feel like that, there are exceptions but they are close.

Is it not HIPS that's the problem then, rather than stealth itself?

Take away the thiefs ability to stealth before your eyes and break combat and you make the class instantly redundant in WvW, unless, they offered a permanent non combat stealth, where the thief could actually scout etc properly and remain hidden at all times unless they either engaged in combat or where spotted by the class with ability to see through stealth based on some form of on-use skill.

Thief hides for as long as they want, knowing that when they engage, that's it, the game is on, there is no restealthing until out of combat?  I would accept that as an alernative playstyle that would at least not turn the thief into just another ranger without a pet, which is what you get if you just remove stealth.

#115 Craywulf

Craywulf

    Legion Commander

  • Members
  • 5273 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:35 AM

I think The fact that Thief is such a great spiker, is what makes the stealth seem overpowering. They could try to reduce the spiking or reduce the stealth in someway.

#116 The Shadow

The Shadow

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 811 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[EXG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:18 AM

I've been playing SPvP all day with my Necro. I usually don't do SPvP. I usually don't play Necro. Haven't touched the Necro since like the first two weeks of release. But either way...

Today I decided; OK.. Obviously people are complaining a lot about Thieves, is it rubbish QQ like I think? Or is there some justification? Maybe I have been biased, maybe there is genuinely something completely totally imba with Thief and stealth.

So I login to these forums, go to the PvE Necro section and copy and paste the nearest Conditionmancer build I could find. I altered it slightly, changed the utility skills but the majority of it stayed the same.

Went into SPvP and got my ass absolutely handed to me by all-sorts of classes not just Thieves. Went and toyed with the build some more, swapped utilities and elite, had a little test on NPCs etc etc.. went and joined another game, stayed for 3-5 rounds and progressively got better and better at playing with the build. To my surprise I actually ended up doing... well.. really, utterly, shockingly (to me) well. After I had gotten to grips with the build and the Necro I was absolutely decimating Thieves 1v1 as well winning, or at least getting out alive, of some 2/3v1 situations. Necro can be very tanky still despite the nerfs. Great fun, honestly haven't enjoyed the class at all until now.

It was just such a simple encounter to me. Even when I was caught at unawares. It usually went something like this:

"Oh.. I've been b-venomed" > Press Spectral walk (walk away a bit) > Press it again > wait for Thief to stealth/ come at me > Press Well of Darkness and lay down some short-cooldown marks > Thief try to run away or SR, probably only has around 25% hp while I'm nearly full > use #5 Staff Mark on SR or the very obvious trail. Thief is downed or feared or running away frantically > Use #2 on S/D > Scepter auto-attack/ Stomp till dead Thief.

If for some reason something went wrong, on my side, I found it to be very forgiving. Some people were like "make a mistake against a Thief = dead" that simply wasn't the case. If the Thief didn't stand in my well I'd just blind/ control his movement/ actions some other way. If I felt my health was getting low and he was gunna start HS-ing me I'd pop into DS or just fear him away. If I started the encounter low hp or something I'd just pop Plague and spam AoE blind/ bleeds. I had no issues with these Thieves, they were easy to kill. Honestly you guys should consider yourselves lucky so many Thieves run this crap it's pretty much a free-kill.

It's very easy to predict where these Thieves are going, be it to try place themselves behind your back or turn tail and run. You can usually tell before they pop stealth. And even a generally weak class has what it takes to counter them extremely easily. Plague covers the SR radius and so do Greater Marks. These things alone paired with any stun-breaker absolutely decimate the cheese-Thiefs.

Some of these Thieves had relatively high PvP ranks too, one of them had the title "Shadow", I still had very little issue with these encounters, honestly despite their ranks/ titles I thought they were pretty rubbish Thieves using pretty rubbish builds.  I guess that's just the nature of SPvP for you. But the fact I can come in on a Necro, that I haven't played in months, a class I actually never took seriously, can take an altered-PvE build (0/30/20/20) with me into SPvP specifically to fight 1v1 against Thieves and end up fighting and winning against multiple Thieves in the space of 3 or so hours.. should be testament enough that these really-bad Thieves really aren't that hard to kill/ ward/ piss off.

Sometimes they get away, sometimes their team-mates come and kill you, sometimes they even log out etc etc etc... there's always going to be things in this setting that will annoy you. That doesn't give you cause to complain about it to the extent that some of you do because it truthfully and honestly isn't imba. The only truly difficult encounters I had today were against Mesmers. I literally can't kill Mesmers as a Necro. I just... can't seem to do anything to them? But either way, I don't think Mesmers are OP, they were probably just more experienced with their class than I was with mine. Does it annoy me that I can't beat them as a Necro? Sure it does, but tomorrow I feel like going round SPvP making a build on my Necro, which I actually enjoyed alot, specifically to counter Mesmers.

#117 Minion

Minion

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 761 posts
  • Location:moi preciouss council house
  • Guild Tag:[Fäp]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 25 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:


Wherever he wants to go. Behind you, next to you, run away, behind a rock, to your left, to your right, 35 degrees NW, 48 degrees SE.



So you're saying that countering Thieves is easy, for example a Warrior can use PBAoE (even though Stealth loses target) or Bow/Hammer (meaning you're saying you have to have either of these to fight Thieves). But wait... you're also saying that even IF a Warrior still hits you, it doesn't make a difference?


So, you're saying that Thieves are actually underpowered, and that almost everyone who doesn't play a Thief is just stupid. You heard it here folks.

1. You bad because you cannot predict where a BACKstab thief will go. You are also bad for not kiting until the thief re-appears. You heard about Revealed and the fact that the longest cloak excluding iHouse is 3s long? Also, AoE still hits/kills while they stealth and so does, strangely, the guardian's heat-seeking 5-skill on the greatsword. There will be other examples on other professions, too. The fact is, there are counters to stealthed thieves.

2. Thieves ARE underpowered. They require good positioning to be any good and are squishy. Warriors go in guns blazing screaming America and get kills. Good thieves get grief when bad players complain and we get nerfed. Stop being bad.

#118 Leger

Leger

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 60 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostThe Shadow, on 26 December 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

A.net aren't failing per se, they've just never had a very good balance-philosophy. It was the same in GW1. But there were periods in GW1 where things were relatively balanced. At any rate the meta was in constant flux.

I don't agree that Thief is problematic in low-tier PvP.

You don't need to kill a Thief 1v1 to get points in SPvP. In fact I'd suggest not engaging in 1v1 at all. If you're just 1v1-ing for fun then surely it shouldn't matter if you win or lose. It's just fun to do?

And if you have your heart set on 1v1ing Thieves you can deal with them easily, you just need to be not shit.
Because you could counter stuff. Stealth is one of the few things off the top of my head that you can't directly counter on any of the professions with a skill/trait choice. I mean you can counter almost anything in this game with a skill/trait choice - but no, not stealth.

You can talk all you want about prediction and AOE but it takes a stupid amount of time to have an AOE skill land in your desired area and for most of the larger aoe skills, your character is locked down and at the mercy of the thief (and/or other players) if it decides to turn around.

So saying "LOL LEARN TO PLAY AND AOE" is a joke in my mind. The better play is to ignore the thief entirely because stealth right now is such a stupidly 'broken' mechanic. And unfortunately in WvW maps at certain times and in certain areas, ignoring isn't really an option - especially when a thief gets an upperhand against another squishy.

Edit: I'm not surprised you and all the other thief players come in here and make it your mission to defend your main character.

Also, thief/stealth isn't the only major problem with PvP (sPvP and WvW).

Edited by Leger, 27 December 2012 - 11:28 AM.


#119 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

View PostLeger, on 27 December 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Because you could counter stuff. Stealth is one of the few things off the top of my head that you can't directly counter on any profession with a skill/trait choice.

You can talk all you want about prediction and AOE but it takes a stupid amount of time to have an AOE skill land in your desired area and for most aoe skills, your character is locked down and at the mercy of the thief (and/or other players) if it decides to turn around.

So saying "LOL LEARN TO PLAY AND AOE" is a joke in my mind. The better play is to ignore the thief entirely because stealth right now is such a stupidly 'broken' mechanic. And unfortunately in WvW maps at certain times and in certain areas, ignoring isn't really an option - especially when a thief gets an upperhand against another squishy.

What baffles me is ANet's insistence that balance exists when thieves, a class that has obvious strengths and weaknesses, don't at all contribute to the experience. Well Anet, here's a newsflash! Balance isn't the presence of strength and weaknesses. It is the availability of strategies and counter strategies. In GW2, the thieves' mechanics just don't work. Shit like repeated stealthing might work in a slow turn based game because then it opens up strategies and predictions, but in an action game where attack projection is much, much more important to strategy it is the denial of choice for one it's being used on and because of ANet's counterbalancing of it, it is the denial of choice for the user.

Overall, change their mechanics. I don't care if they become stronger or weaker in the long run, In fact it'd be great if they did become relatively stronger because that'll make the game more interesting for me (as an elementalist).

#120 sanctuaire

sanctuaire

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 248 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

View PostNalano, on 26 December 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

You don't need much balance for PvE, because people are not competing. Therefore you're of a body of players that are the easiest to please and the least of anybody's concern.

not at all.
they're competing for grouping.
players *only* looking for warr/guards to complete their group are very real
and shows how much out of balance current classes are for pve as well.
anet should continue on with their skill splits.

.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users