195 replies to this topic

[chrisbdrake]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

All he is saying is ArenaNet is a commercial company that seeks to be profitable.  Why would anyone be surprised?  Did anyone think that ArenaNet is a non-profit charity?

I get the impression that there are many people on these forums that think it's wrong for Anet to make a profit.

Perm Shadow Form, on 23 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Their cash shop is awful and people aren't buying anything, therefore Arena Net is ninja nerfing loots in order to force people to buy gems and convert them into in game money.

That's how [ i ] would explain GW2's hyperinflation.

Do you have any real evidence to support this?

[Arquenya]

chrisbdrake, on 23 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I get the impression that there are many people on these forums that think it's wrong for Anet to make a profit.

I haven't seen a single one that has written that. Which one, exactly, and where?

[Red_Falcon]

Kattar, on 23 December 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

P2W people are always going to think the game is P2W, it doesn't matter what anyone else says. It doesn't matter what you say to convince them otherwise - the logic in their own heads is the only one they're going to listen to. His avatar gives him away enough as it is.

Ignore them and move on.

This.

[Daesu]

chrisbdrake, on 23 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I get the impression that there are many people on these forums that think it's wrong for Anet to make a profit.

No, it is just expected that they need to earn a profit.  I mean...duh...would anyone expect otherwise?  The fact that Nexon assigned Crystin Cox to ArenaNet already is an obvious indication of what they need from the ArenaNet team.

So if they need to earn a profit, how would they do that?  i.e. They must "push" people to buy gems with real money as much as they can.

1.  Make huge gold sinks in the game so that gold is always in high demand.
2.  Make the gem<->gold exchange rate to always favor gems so that people would tend to buy gems with real money instead of gold. That would also encourage people who need gold (see point 1 above), to buy gems using real money then sell their gems for gold.
3.  Make things in the gem store that people would buy to encourage them to buy more gems.  (e.g. make over kits, event stuff, etc.)
4.  Have more RNG/gambling stuff in the gem store, so that the economy is not flooded with good stuff (see point 1 above), yet people would still buy gems for them.

Edited by Daesu, 23 December 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Gileas898]

Red_Falcon, on 23 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

This.

You are complaining about people like me ignoring whatever you say, and then you admit to ignoring our posts and anything we say for no reason.

The logic... Astounding.

chrisbdrake, on 23 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I get the impression that there are many people on these forums that think it's wrong for Anet to make a profit.

They could be making money without exploiting their player base.

For example, they could offer paid content patches that forces the devs to actually make good content. Too bad they scrapped that for poor content and an aggressive gem store, no?

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Except that the guy who spend $200 can get it IMMEDIATELY.  Getting the stuff you want immediately, instead of farming for $200 worth over the next few weeks, is very appealing.

It is not just convenience too.  Having different armor/weapons/jewelry set for different situations involve having different runes/sigils and different traits.  You can't switch your build easily back and forth without having enough gold to buy and setup these alternate sets for sPvP, WvW, PvE, dungeons, etc.  Customizing and optimizing your build for different situations IS a P2W advantage that you can have with gold.

So you admit it's just a matter of time.
Now explain to me how time is a matter of P2W.

Gileas898, on 23 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

They could be making money without exploiting their player base.

For example, they could offer paid content patches that forces the devs to actually make good content. Too bad they scrapped that for poor content and an aggressive gem store, no?

Were you on these forums when one of the devs stated they "might be looking into adding dungeons to the cash-shop"?
The uproar was almost bigger as the Ascended items uproar..

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

No, it is just expected that they need to earn a profit.  I mean...duh...would anyone expect otherwise?  The fact that Nexon assigned Crystin Cox to ArenaNet already is an obvious indication of what they need from the ArenaNet team.

So if they need to earn a profit, how would they do that?  i.e. They must "push" people to buy gems with real money as much as they can.

1.  Make huge gold sinks in the game so that gold is always in high demand.
2.  Make the gem<->gold exchange rate to always favor gems so that people would tend to buy gems with real money instead of gold. That would also encourage people who need gold (see point 1 above), to buy gems using real money then sell their gems for gold.
3.  Make things in the gem store that people would buy to encourage them to buy more gems.  (e.g. make over kits, event stuff, etc.)
4.  Have more RNG/gambling stuff in the gem store, so that the economy is not flooded with good stuff (see point 1 above), yet people would still buy gems for them.

Your logic is flawed.

IF they should make gold so scarce they push every player to the gem-shop, gems would be worth nothing.
This would also benefit them, because then players would need to buy more gems with cash to get equal amount of gold.
But as it stands now prices are very high, which is bad for Anet really.

+ If Anet should make gold so scarce everyone wants to buy gems to sel em for gold, who's gonna buy that massive amount of gems then?
Nobody would want those gems because gold is so scarce and people prefer their gold over some fluff stuff.

[AKGeo]

chrisbdrake, on 23 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I get the impression that there are many people on these forums that think it's wrong for Anet to make a profit.



Do you have any real evidence to support this?

That's because we're currently living with the Occupy Wall Street generation, where anyone who profits from the ignorance, stupidity, or obsessions of others is evil, and all rich people must die and their wealth be distributed evenly to the lazy, entitled, worthless dregs of society who lack the ability/fortitude to make their own way in this world.

And no, he has no evidence. Especially when I'm constantly seeing people in the new costumes running around LA, followed by scores of minipets (not the in-game ones, either), and people in groups running the account-bound boosters (yes you can get them from BL Chests, but keys are so rare without buying them that it's unlikely that they weren't bought in the gem shop).

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

So you admit it's just a matter of time.
Now explain to me how time is a matter of P2W.

The amount of time needed for you to farm $200 worth is too long with the current gold sinks in the game.  Those people who can get the stuff they want immediately are able to start reaping the benefits immediately while you have to farm for gold first, buy, before you can start reaping the benefits.  Those benefits can be greater enjoyment, greater chance of victory for your WvW team, or even greater chance to farm better stuff with a magic find set, while the other guy is still busy farming for gold to get his first exotic.

Edited by Daesu, 23 December 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

No wait 1 gem=hundred golds? Nope, i should have made my example more detailed. 10 buck for 1 gem, 200 gold for 100 gem, 1000 USD>100 gem > 80g. This is the trend we are leading, and next months wouldn't surprise me at all. There isn't a balance at all about the gem conversion, Anet is not gonna allow for sure loads of gold with cash, until the ingame economy is 100x superior and what you get is a bunch of gold not able to buy nothing valuable if not spending a lot of cash increasing Anet incomes.
Tl tr, the gemstore is just an other fraud, some like the guy i quoted are waking up, boycotting the system, sheeps will not care even if this kind of huge unbalance i wrote is online. And will be online, be sure.

For that to happen there already should be a huge amount of gold in the economy.
Because them gem/gold market is player driven, there is no gold injection.
In contrary, the more gems that are sold for gold, the more gold disappears out of the economy.

[The_Blades]

this wouldnt be a problem if the game had a decent economy. maybe its to early to tell.

I for one dont like the randomness in the mystic forge, i dont like how weak the drops are and i dont like the crafting system being useless outside leveling purposes.

I think we as gamers should be really ashamed to accept a system of converting real money into ingame money, shouldnt ingame money be gained by playing the damn game? it would all be good and well if the ingame economy revolved around the game, instead it goes around the cash shop. This will eventually reflect on the game population, the game is still pretty much new. maybe in a few more months, when other mmo's come out (elder scrolls online?).

[NotKMoose]

How is this a surprise to anyone.. I've never bought gems but if I wanted something from the gem store I would just trade gold for it and get it done with, long term you can expect gem price to increase as gold becomes easier to attain

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

The amount of time needed for you to farm $200 worth is too long with the current gold sinks in the game.  

Exactly this is where we disagree, and why it has no use to keep debating.

You believe gold is hard to make, and therefore the gem -> gold is unfair (mind you still not P2W).

And I believe gold is pretty easy to make in the game.
Ofcourse people who spend 200$ might get Foefire's Essence 2 weeks ahead of me, but I don't care about that.
All the necessary stuff is very easy to get, in my opinion.

[AKGeo]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

The amount of time needed for you to farm $200 worth is too long with the current gold sinks in the game.  Those people who can get the stuff they want immediately are able to start reaping the benefits immediately while you have to farm for gold first, buy, before you can start reaping the benefits.  Those benefits can be greater enjoyment, greater chance of victory for your WvW team, or even greater chance to farm better stuff with a magic find set, while the other guy is still busy farming for gold to get his first exotic.

So we should outlaw playing the game more than X hours a day, too? Because someone who plays 8 hours a day is going to have a marked advantage over someone playing 2 hours a day. Just like someone who buys gold AND plays 8 hours a day is going to have a marked advantage over someone who plays 8 hours a day and doesn't buy gold.


But in the end, there IS still a power plateau, and eventually everyone's going to reach it. And any changes in that plateau are far enough away that it's trivial for the players who will notice the difference to reach that new plateau, buying gold or otherwise.

Until the gem shop releases "godly" items that are insta-win in WvW, PvP or even PvE, you really have no argument. Because even full exotics (easy to get, by the way) are not insta-win against someone in full rares.

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Exactly this is where we disagree, and why it has no use to keep debating.

You believe gold is hard to make, and therefore the gem -> gold is unfair (mind you still not P2W).

And I believe gold is pretty easy to make in the game.
Ofcourse people who spend 200$ might get Foefire's Essence 2 weeks ahead of me, but I don't care about that.
All the necessary stuff is very easy to get, in my opinion.

If that is your complain then feel free to share out all your secrets of making gold so that everyone would benefit and I bet you ArenaNet would close that exploit quickly.  It is no point saying gold is easy to make on your own without revealing how to everyone.

Edited by Daesu, 23 December 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

If that is your complain then feel free to share out all your secrets of making gold so that everyone would benefit and I bet you ArenaNet would close that exploit quickly.  It is no point saying gold is easy to make on your own without revealing how to everyone.

Ok I buy LOOAAAADS of mithril, elder wood and t6 mats.
Then I craft those to weapons or armor, and sell them again.

With loads I mean minimum 100g of each.

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

My example of p2w is a more realistic one and maybe what he's trying to tell too.
As you said, yes, you get your foefire after weeks and weeks, a guy with credit card, 3 minutes , fresh new 80 while you're an experienced player yet, you know the game and how it works, where to farm, pray your luck etc. He just logged and paid. Do this is p2w. Detach yourself from the idea p2w is "superior stuff to 1shot who didn't pay" and you get what we are talking about. Go back to my posts on this thread, you can read a better explanation about it, Gilles.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Gilles VI]

The_Blades, on 23 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

this wouldnt be a problem if the game had a decent economy. maybe its to early to tell.

I for one dont like the randomness in the mystic forge, i dont like how weak the drops are and i dont like the crafting system being useless outside leveling purposes.

I think we as gamers should be really ashamed to accept a system of converting real money into ingame money, shouldnt ingame money be gained by playing the damn game? it would all be good and well if the ingame economy revolved around the game, instead it goes around the cash shop. This will eventually reflect on the game population, the game is still pretty much new. maybe in a few more months, when other mmo's come out (elder scrolls online?).

I agree for the RNG on some items, and the bad drops.
But crafting is my main source of income.

But how exactly does the game revolve around the gem-shop?
Lots of guildies of me are doing absolutely fine in the game without ever buying anything in there.

[AKGeo]

Foefire's Essence is not going to give its wielder an advantage over anyone with any other exotic of the same stats. That alone makes it


NOT PAY TO WIN.
I have full berserker's exotics on my thief. Not one thing on my thief's gameplay armor was bought from the gem shop, or with gold purchased from gems purchased with real money. In fact, I haven't spent a dime of real money on the gem shop.

I just crafted full exotics for my warrior.

I just bought full dungeon exotics for my mesmer.

It's NOT THAT HARD. And you don't need the gem shop to do any of it.

No, I don't have a legendary. But when that legendary gives me the ability to one-shot Ginva the Butcher, even as a .001% chance, you might have a point. But until then, please stop overexaggerating the importance of a gem shop with 95% aesthetic rewards. The only advantage you can get are the boosters and revive orbs. And I think a revive orb is worth more than the 1s50c it would cost me to run back from a waypoint, and the 1s50c it would take to repair a piece of damaged armor.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

My example of p2w is a more realistic one and maybe what he's trying to tell too.
As you said, yes, you get your foefire after weeks and weeks, a guy with credit card, 3 minutes. Do this is p2w. Detach yourself from the idea p2w is "superior stuff" and you get what we are talking about. Go back to my posts on this thread, you can read a better explanation about it, Gilles.

Well with all respect I really get what you mean.
But for me personally, I don't care if someone can get an item like that before me because he bought gold with cash.
As long as I can be on an even playing field as that person (which I can in GW2 because of the low power plateau) I really don't care.

This ofcourse would change if Anet introduced a uber tier, with double the stats as exotic, and made this set 1000g.
Then I would be upset.

But now I can only say we respectfully disagree

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Foefire's Essence is not going to give its wielder an advantage over anyone with any other exotic of the same stats. That alone makes it


NOT PAY TO WIN.

As i wrote yet, detach yourself by the idea some junkmmo gave you p2w=1shot who doesn't pay

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 23 December 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Gilles VI]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Foefire's Essence is not going to give its wielder an advantage over anyone with any other exotic of the same stats. That alone makes it


NOT PAY TO WIN.

Except you look amazingly cool ^^

[AKGeo]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

As i wrote yet, detach yourself by the idea some junkmmo gave you p2w=1shot who doesn't pay

No, I will not detach from that idea, because that's what PAY TO WIN IS.

You don't WIN THE GAME by looking better than someone else. You WIN THE GAME by having the ability to do significantly more DPS while taking significantly less damage than the other guy. Aesthetics are subjective. Therefore they do not define "winning" in the general sense, when the option of "winning" being a purely numbers, binary "you're dead, I'm not" system is out there. Which it is. If you can stand there like a tool, take all the hits in the world from another player, laugh it off, then swing your Twilight legendary at him ONCE and kill him, that would be Pay to Win. Exaggerated, of course. If two players of equal ability face off with two characters with equal skills but one has gem-shop-only armor and weaponry, and that gem shop player wins every time, that's pay to win.

Shooting rainbows at your enemies doesn't make you win.

Edited by AKGeo, 23 December 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Lucas Ashrock, on 23 December 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

As i wrote yet, detach yourself by the idea some junkmmo gave you p2w=1shot who doesn't pay

Well I gave it some thought, and you're right.
I would be upset if legendary weapons would be sold in gem-shop, or could be completely bought with gold, because those own some prestige to it, same with dungeon armors or so.
As long as they don't do this I'm happy.

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Ok I buy LOOAAAADS of mithril, elder wood and t6 mats.
Then I craft those to weapons or armor, and sell them again.

With loads I mean minimum 100g of each.

What specific crafted weapons or armor that you can sell for minimum 100g each?

It is no point claiming that gold is easy to make while keeping a secret of it from everyone.  Because you are not the only player in this game.

Edited by Daesu, 23 December 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

What specific crafted weapons or armor that you can sell for minimum 100g each?

I mean buy materials in huge amounts.
Likse yesterday I bought 25k mithril ores, and 17k elder wood logs.
Then I craft those, and sell the items back.

In my experience you're better of with the cheap items (pearl weapons, draconic armors,...) than with expensive ones (destroyer weapons,...).
When crafting anyway.

When you want to flip goods I'd recommend lodestones, runes and sigils and the intermediate expensive items like the exotic greatswords that are around ~5g.
Those often fluctuate and you can make a nice profit from those in 1-2 days.

[Nitroglicerin]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Well I gave it some thought, and you're right.
I would be upset if legendary weapons would be sold in gem-shop, or could be completely bought with gold, because those own some prestige to it, same with dungeon armors or so.
As long as they don't do this I'm happy.

Legendary weapons are being sold at TP to be completely bought with gold as you say...just get a credit card and get them...

P.S. - Are you still playing the game? Because Legendary weapons being sold at the TP is not exactly new...

Edited by Nitroglicerin, 23 December 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[FoxBat]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

1.  Make huge gold sinks in the game so that gold is always in high demand.

Would gold stop being in demand if there were't enormous sinks? There's no secure trading outside of the TP, and you sure aren't going to trade anything else for gems. The gold flowing easier is called "inflation" and would just push the price of gems up further. We've already seen this happen considering how they have risen along with the cost of ecto and improved dungeon rewards.

Edited by FoxBat, 23 December 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[AKGeo]

NItro: but Arenanet is not offering those items. Other players are. and therein lies the difference. Arenanet is not arbitrarily setting the minimum price on those legendary weapons beyond the merchant price for them. Nobody's going to sell a legendary for 10s or whatever it is (I don't have the game open right now). Players are setting arbitrary prices, based on arbitrary prices of goods that also have merchant values well below their market value, and time that you cannot place a hard-fast value on. Players who choose to buy them are doing so with the conscious choice of spending that amount of gold. Where they got the gold is irrelevant, THAT was ALSO their choice.

Oh, and legendaries also don't give statistics greater than any matching-type exotic. Or ascended, when they are released. So that's moot, other than for the one person who expressed disdain for this possibility.

[Gilles VI]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Legendary weapons are being sold at TP to be completely bought with gold as you say...just get a credit card and get them...

P.S. - Are you still playing the game? Because Legendary weapons being sold at the TP is not exactly new...

I meant for a serious price, nobody is going to pay 9000 gold for a a weapon.
That would be ~9000 dollar.

[Nitroglicerin]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I meant for a serious price, nobody is going to pay 9000 gold for a a weapon.
That would be ~9000 dollar.

Again...are you playing this game still?

If you are log in and go check the TP. You can buy Legendary weapons from 4444 gold to 5921 gold besides the 9500 gold one you wrongly mentioned.

Anyway, it is possible to get a Legendary weapon simply with gold. You should be really disappointed...