195 replies to this topic

[Gilles VI]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Again...are you playing this game still?

If you are log in and go check the TP. You can buy Legendary weapons from 4444 gold to 5921 gold besides the 9500 gold one you wrongly mentioned.

Anyway, it is possible to get a Legendary weapon simply with gold. You should be really disappointed...

Thoe are buy offers, as far as I know the lowest sell offer is 6500 for bifrost. Which still is 6000 dollar.
No I don't worry.

If someone is insane enough to put that much money in the game I'm happy.
He's funding our next expansion.

And no I can't login atm, I'm at my laptop, which already almost explodes at log-in screen.

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[DarkGanni]

ANet has turned from a great company into another garbage money hungry one, nothing new. welcome to gw2.

EDIT: to elaborate more on my comment, ANet wants more profit than those they had from GW1, it's more inclined towards making more money than a good game.

Edited by DarkGanni, 23 December 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[The_Blades]

Anet traded the best thing they had going for them - pvp. for just another mmo. WvW is okay though, if playing with friends.

[AKGeo]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Again...are you playing this game still?

If you are log in and go check the TP. You can buy Legendary weapons from 4444 gold to 5921 gold besides the 9500 gold one you wrongly mentioned.

Anyway, it is possible to get a Legendary weapon simply with gold. You should be really disappointed...

Um, you're discussing HIS opinion like it is now in the realm of fact. And "9000 gold" is irrelevant, made irrelevant due to an item listed at a higher price, so semantics isn't going to get you anywhere.

The prices of legendaries on the TP are exorbitant and well beyond the costs needed to make them, even if you factor in time spent. Since Twilight was first crafted a month after release of the game, and it takes an equivalent of 2000g worth of materials at today's prices to craft, that's claiming that your month is worth $7500. I wish I got $7500 a month. I doubt the players crafting twilight in a month quit their jobs making $7500 a month just to play this game to sell the item for in-game gold.

[Eon Lilu]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Except that the guy who spend $200 can get it IMMEDIATELY.  Getting the stuff you want immediately, instead of farming for $200 worth over the next few weeks, is very appealing.

It is not just convenience too.  Having different armor/weapons/jewelry set for different situations involve having different runes/sigils and different traits.  You can't switch your build easily back and forth without having enough gold to buy and setup these alternate sets for sPvP, WvW, PvE, dungeons, etc.  Customizing and optimizing your build for different situations IS a P2W advantage that you can have with gold.

Exactly someone who understands. p2w doesnt just mean someone has a killing advantage over you.

[Gilles VI]

The_Blades, on 23 December 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Anet traded the best thing they had going for them - pvp. for just another mmo. WvW is okay though, if playing with friends.

Yup. We can only hope they extend the PvP, it also took them 7 months to start PvP seriously..

DarkGanni, on 23 December 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

ANet has turned from a great company into another garbage money hungry one, nothing new. welcome to gw2.

Welcome to reality, where corporate enterprises need to make a profit to keep pushing goods out.

[Nitroglicerin]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Thoe are buy offers, as far as I know the lowest sell offer is 6500 for bifrost. Which still is 6000 dollar.
No I don't worry.

If someone is insane enough to put that much money in the game I'm happy.
He's funding our next expansion.

And no I can't login atm, I'm at my laptop, which already almost explodes at log-in screen.

No, they are not custom offers but selling prices.

Anyway money is relative. 9000 or 10000 dollars for some people is just nothing.

Next time you start to use values on your posts make sure you are logged in. Replying to posts like you know everything and then make these mistakes just takes away all your credibility.

But you should still be disappointed because people can buy Legendaries Weapons by using their Legendary Wallets.

Edited by Nitroglicerin, 23 December 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[AKGeo]

Eon Lilu, on 23 December 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

Exactly someone who understands. p2w doesnt just mean someone has a killing advantage over you.

defining word of "p2w", in proper english spelled out as Pay to Win, is WIN. Define to me how obtaining an item which has a subjectively more attractive skin than other options that can be obtained during casual play is winning, especially when the mechanics exist for players to face one another in combat where the looks of the item don't matter at all?

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I mean buy materials in huge amounts.
Likse yesterday I bought 25k mithril ores, and 17k elder wood logs.
Then I craft those, and sell the items back.

In my experience you're better of with the cheap items (pearl weapons, draconic armors,...) than with expensive ones (destroyer weapons,...).
When crafting anyway.

When you want to flip goods I'd recommend lodestones, runes and sigils and the intermediate expensive items like the exotic greatswords that are around ~5g.
Those often fluctuate and you can make a nice profit from those in 1-2 days.

That doesn't seem to earn you much per day, so how do you get 100g?  The profit margin for crafted goods in general is pittance.

Edited by Daesu, 23 December 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[AKGeo]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

No, they are not custom offers but selling prices.

Anyway money is relative. 9000 or 10000 dollars for some people is just nothing.

Next time you start to use values on your posts make sure you are logged in. Replying to posts like you know everything and then make these mistakes just takes away all your credibility.

But you should still be disappointed because people can buy Legendaries weapons by using their Legendary Wallets.

His credibility is not in question because the price is irrelevant given the scale. 9000 or 9500, who gives a damn? And someone who can afford to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket isn't likely going to be of the sort to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket. Kids with rich parents...possible, but improbable. If they don't earn the money themselves, the likelihood increases. but anyone who earned that kind of money on their own is already of the mindset where video game trinketry isn't worth that kind of coin. Considering the relative price of the item vs. the game itself. If the game itself cost $10k to purchase and play, then I can see your point. But a $50 game with a $9k shiny bit inside? I don't think so.

And saying "If I had that kind of money, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!" doesn't change that. Because you don't have that kind of money. If you did, your opinion would likely be different, if you're even playing the game at all.

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

That doesn't seem to earn you much per day, so how do you get 100g?  The profit margin for crafted goods in general is pittance.

I never said I make 100g/day.
I'm glad making ~20g a day.

Per week I can often only play 3 days or so, in those days I do lots of dungeons/fractals (I just love those, god I farmed over 5000 AC tears now ) where I earn some money.
The other days in the morning i just login for 10 minutes to collect gold and place buy orders, then go to university or work, and in the evening I collect, craft and put the sell orders.
I mostly invest ~200g per day last weeks, and I get around ~20g profit/day.
My weekly income lies around 200g last month.

That excludes my long-term investments: Halloween skins, mystic forge conduits,..

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

I never said I make 100g/day.
I'm glad making ~20g a day.

That is still a lot of gold with the narrow profits from crafted goods.  Which specific crafted goods did you make?

[AKGeo]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

That doesn't seem to earn you much per day, so how do you get 100g?  The profit margin for crafted goods in general is pittance.

He didn't state his profit margins...at all. If you put in a buy order on the materials for those items, rather than paying lowest sell price, your profit margin indeed can and will be pretty high, considering the pearl exotic weapons sell for 5-7g a piece or more for berserker stats. 1-1.5g for the ectos required, about the same for the powerful bloods required, and minimal cost for the ori and ancient wood in comparison. That's more than doubling your investment.

Mithril is also fairly inexpensive, so making level 80 crafted rares and selling them is also a decent profit as well, as level 80 crafted rares sell for around 1g and don't require T6 mats or ectos to make. (not including jewelry)

[Nitroglicerin]

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

His credibility is not in question because the price is irrelevant given the scale. 9000 or 9500, who gives a damn? And someone who can afford to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket isn't likely going to be of the sort to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket. Kids with rich parents...possible, but improbable. If they don't earn the money themselves, the likelihood increases. but anyone who earned that kind of money on their own is already of the mindset where video game trinketry isn't worth that kind of coin. Considering the relative price of the item vs. the game itself. If the game itself cost $10k to purchase and play, then I can see your point. But a $50 game with a $9k shiny bit inside? I don't think so.

And saying "If I had that kind of money, I'd buy it in a heartbeat!" doesn't change that. Because you don't have that kind of money. If you did, your opinion would likely be different, if you're even playing the game at all.

His credibility was ruined when he showed complete ignorance about Legendary Weapons being sold for gold at TP, as you can see here:

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Well I gave it some thought, and you're right.
I would be upset if legendary weapons would be sold in gem-shop, or could be completely bought with gold, because those own some prestige to it, same with dungeon armors or so.
As long as they don't do this I'm happy.

[Gilles VI]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

No, they are not custom offers but selling prices.

Anyway money is relative. 9000 or 10000 dollars for some people is just nothing.

Next time you start to use values on your posts make sure you are logged in. Replying to posts like you know everything and then make these mistakes just takes away all your credibility.

But you should still be disappointed because people can buy Legendaries Weapons by using their Legendary Wallets.

I agree money is relative, but 9k for a single item in stupid game? That would be a whole new kind of stupidity.

And I don't post like I know everything, I'm always open for corrections. And honestly, I don't give a *** about my credibility, this is the interwebs.

And as I said before, I'm not disappointed because I think those prices are way out of reach for anyone, and even if someone would spend 9k on the game, I would be happy, because people like him are funding new content for all of us.

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

That is still a lot of gold with the narrow profits from crafted goods.  Which specific crafted goods did you make?

I'm not going to much into detail (I wanna protect my own niche market ^^) but the krait weapons are doing very well.
Those weapons are used by loads of people to gamble in the mystic forge for pre-cursors.

If you buy materials with buy offers at the right time, craft them to krait weapons, and sell them with sell offers at right time, there is profit to be made.

[AKGeo]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

His credibility was ruined when he showed complete ignorance about Legendary Weapons being sold for gold at TP, as you can see here:

I wouldn't say that ruins his credibility. That only proves one thing: that he didn't see legendaries on the TP already. They've only been up for a few days now. Considering that this game is marketed to those who can't play daily, I'd say that his credibility is still intact.

[Gilles VI]

Nitroglicerin, on 23 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

What ArenaNet did without telling their player base, was that they ninja reduced the loot drops around mid-November 2012. Basically, they hugely increased the time demand to get the same amount of gold in-game by farming events and mobs. The ones that got hit the most with this ninja nerf are the players that have time and play for free (usually the ones who bash this type of posts...ahahah, go figure!).
The players that have no time and buy gems to trade for gold are much better because they can get much more gold for the same amount of gems/real money they used to get.

What the ninja loot drop reduction achieved it is clear: motivates the normal gem buyers to buy even more gems to get more gold and harvests real money from the free-play player base that can not compensate with more farming time their gold needs.

For me, you lost all your credibility here, because the whole post shows a lack of economic knowledge.

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that ruins his credibility. That only proves one thing: that he didn't see legendaries on the TP already. They've only been up for a few days now. Considering that this game is marketed to those who can't play daily, I'd say that his credibility is still intact.

You're right, I thought the offers on the TP for legendaries were "fake" offers, like the 600g offer for the pear, or the 500g offer for the copper mining pick.
I honestly thought Legendaries were Soulbound on Acquire.

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[PracticalShutIn]

The gem price isn't controlled by supply and demand.  It is affected by it, but anet has all but admitted it's not completely dependent on players buying/selling gems.  The price is gradually inflated despite player actions.  Realistically, with the higher the price, the less likely players would be willing to convert gems into gold, and so the graph would be buffered by purchases in the other direction.

People in-game now are reaaaaally reluctant to buy gems with gold.  In September people were buying bank space and bag slots like crazy and it stayed pretty even each day.  That's the point we should have seen a lot of volatility.  At some point it started rising and never returned.  I think this is the point where Anet decided to inflate.

As the game has gone on, it has been harder to make money, as well as more important to make money. The graph should have been dropping as of ascended.

Also, there's pretty much no one disagreeing in guild or map chat that there was a nerf to loot rates.  And those opinions mean more than forumers because they are based on individual experience, rather than jumping on a bandwagon in a forum (in either way).

[Daesu]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

I'm not going to much into detail (I wanna protect my own niche market ^^) but the krait weapons are doing very well.
Those weapons are used by loads of people to gamble in the mystic forge for pre-cursors.

If you buy materials with buy offers at the right time, craft them to krait weapons, and sell them with sell offers at right time, there is profit to be made.

I looked at the krait weapons in spidy and they are really narrow profit margin, if any.

http://www.gw2spidy....ort_rating=desc

Worse, the ingredients to craft these are common, so if you make a lot of those to earn gold, anyone who watches the TP would craft them and dump them on the TP at a cheaper price than you.

[Gilles VI]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

I looked at the krait weapons in spidy and they are really narrow profit margin, if any.

http://www.gw2spidy....ort_rating=desc

Worse, the ingredients to craft these are common, so if you make a lot of those to earn gold, anyone who watches the TP would craft them and dump them on the TP at a cheaper price than you.

GW2Spidy doesn't show the real margins, they use sell offers for the materials, if you use buy offers your margin increases.
And at GW2spidy it's a moment shot, prices fluctuate.
Believe me, make some spreadsheets, calculate the cost price yourself and you'll see.

And yes ofcourse you get undercut sometimes, but that's why you craft those krait weapons.
Alot of people buy them, they're a very liquide item.

And well, last week 300/350 available items were from me, and yet nobody jumped on the wagon, so I guess I'm lucky.

Edited by Gilles VI, 23 December 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

Gileas898, on 23 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

You are complaining about people like me ignoring whatever you say, and then you admit to ignoring our posts and anything we say for no reason.

The logic... Astounding.

I ignore the posts of people who have their mind already made up and no amount of facts and logic can make their bias vacillate.
I actually wonder why such biased people even post in forums: what's the point of discussing if you give credit only to yourself? Go be a hermit or something.

As a matter of fact there is no such thing as pay to "win" in GW2.
You can buy 10 million gems on a character and your chances to kill me, or anyone else with a quarter of my playtime for that matter, won't go up in the slightest.
All gems can do is get things to you faster, in a game where capping your stats is easy as *.
The fact that in every mmo on the market one can buy gold for real cash alone dismantles any correlation between cash shop and paying to win - even in WoW you can buy all things with real cash including gear and arena rating that would normally require several months to aquire.
Hell you can buy entire accounts with overpowered characters with a few bucks if you want: if one has money, he WILL get some advantages in ANY MMO on the market - denying this fact nullifies any credibility one might have on this subject.
Here is where GW2 is different: in GW2 it takes so little effort to get max stuff that the little advantage you get over a newcomer is very short-lived and will be nullified in a matter of a couple weeks.

The bottom line is that yes, spending money gives you an edge over newcomers as they need a couple weeks to build up their character - but nothing beyond that.
Now go ask a WoW player how much advantage a person buying a full epic character has against a newcomer, then come back with a fresh new opinion on what pay to win actually means.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 24 December 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Gilles VI, on 23 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Thoe are buy offers, as far as I know the lowest sell offer is 6500 for bifrost. Which still is 6000 dollar.
No I don't worry.

If someone is insane enough to put that much money in the game I'm happy.
He's funding our next expansion.

And no I can't login atm, I'm at my laptop, which already almost explodes at log-in screen.

Sunrise, 1 available, 3333g 33 s 33 copper. 1 Frostfang, 4444g 44s 44 copper.
Now add the fact they will be updated when ascended weapons are online, and well, if they are in the middle between exotic and legendaries,i  doubt they will be so easy to afford or so much widespread ( i don't even want to imagine the mats price lol). In case, considering their stats will be superior to exotic weapons, isn't it p2w (now fit the definition of p2w=stronger)? Ye, its still a lot of cash, but well, i have some friends with so much gold to have fun ingame ruining the game and the market. As you see, the price on TP is even a funny spit to the community, with stupid prices just to type something not even caring if someone will buy it or not, nor the fee price he paid for put the legendary on sale. Cheaters and exploiters not banned are the real cancer on this game , for sure. Then ye,add a rich kid whining daddy to buy him his shiny pixel, and here you see how months of work can be bough in 10 minutes.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 24 December 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[farkov47]

I think i haven't been tempted to buy any gold at the moment, there's really nothing to spend on if you give up on Legendaries.
Got 4 chars to level 80 and felt done.
Logon winter event, craft a mini pet, look at it a few mins... deposit collectibles - it disappears instantly - wonder what the fuss is about, get on with daily - got Karma jug , log off.

been happening for 2 weeks. game seems dull after a bit.

[chrisbdrake]

Daesu, on 23 December 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

No, it is just expected that they need to earn a profit.  I mean...duh...would anyone expect otherwise?  The fact that Nexon assigned Crystin Cox to ArenaNet already is an obvious indication of what they need from the ArenaNet team.

\
Show me any evidence where either Anet or Nexon say that Nexon ordered this.

PracticalShutIn, on 23 December 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Also, there's pretty much no one disagreeing in guild or map chat that there was a nerf to loot rates.  And those opinions mean more than forumers because they are based on individual experience, rather than jumping on a bandwagon in a forum (in either way).

Except no one can show the tables from before or after this supposed nerf.  Until this happens, it's all just conspiracy like JFK and the grassy knoll.

AKGeo, on 23 December 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

His credibility is not in question because the price is irrelevant given the scale. 9000 or 9500, who gives a damn? And someone who can afford to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket isn't likely going to be of the sort to drop 9 grand on a video game trinket.

Are you aware that there are players that will spend as much as $100,000 per year on online games?  Yes, there are whales in this environment.  Personally, I don't get the attraction, but what the heck it's just my job to seperate these people from their money.

[Soki]

Quote

"There's no problem with this"
"-I- enjoy the game - why does this matter?"
"I don't understand what that graph represents; so you're obviously stupid for not loving GW2"

Yeah..

If the Jan/Feb update doesn't have major system overhauls to make this less of an issue, I'll just drop it and find something that isn't making its core game mechanic a grind.

[Gileas898]

Red_Falcon, on 24 December 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

I ignore the posts of people who have their mind already made up and no amount of facts and logic can make their bias vacillate.
I actually wonder why such biased people even post in forums: what's the point of discussing if you give credit only to yourself? Go be a hermit or something.

This can be applied to you as well.

As a matter of fact there is no such thing as pay to "win" in GW2.
You can buy 10 million gems on a character and your chances to kill me, or anyone else with a quarter of my playtime for that matter, won't go up in the slightest.
All gems can do is get things to you faster, in a game where capping your stats is easy as *.
The fact that in every mmo on the market one can buy gold for real cash alone dismantles any correlation between cash shop and paying to win - even in WoW you can buy all things with real cash including gear and arena rating that would normally require several months to aquire.
Hell you can buy entire accounts with overpowered characters with a few bucks if you want: if one has money, he WILL get some advantages in ANY MMO on the market - denying this fact nullifies any credibility one might have on this subject.
Here is where GW2 is different: in GW2 it takes so little effort to get max stuff that the little advantage you get over a newcomer is very short-lived and will be nullified in a matter of a couple weeks.

We are not discussing PvP, nor gear differences.

The bottom line is that yes, spending money gives you an edge over newcomers as they need a couple weeks to build up their character - but nothing beyond that.
Now go ask a WoW player how much advantage a person buying a full epic character has against a newcomer, then come back with a fresh new opinion on what pay to win actually means.

WoW is supposed to be unfair to give players an incentive to play more. GW2 was not.

Edited by Gileas898, 24 December 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[davadude]

Gileas898, on 23 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

You are complaining about people like me ignoring whatever you say, and then you admit to ignoring our posts and anything we say for no reason.

The logic... Astounding.

No, he simply states that you continue to ignore his point (and everybody who posts against your beliefs), and that it is best for us to treat you the same.

[Red_Falcon]

Gileas898, on 24 December 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

snip

So if we're not discussing PvP or gear difference then where is this "pay to win" exactly?
P2W was coined for games that allow you to pay to be stronger than all others immediately, or obtain statistical advantages that non-payers either couldn't get or needed hundreds of hours to get.

You new gen kids just love to misuse common derogatory terms for everything you hate regardless of context.
If I had a penny for every time I heard "grind" and "pay 2 win" out of context just to bash a game...

[Arquenya]

Red_Falcon, on 24 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

So if we're not discussing PvP or gear difference then where is this "pay to win" exactly?
P2W was coined for games that allow you to pay to be stronger than all others immediately, or obtain statistical advantages that non-payers either couldn't get or needed hundreds of hours to get.

It's not all that bad.

It's just that, given you spend less than maximum hours on the game or you're a smart TP player, someone that spends RL Cash on the game has a gear advantage over someone else. And when legendaries (now for sale on the TP) are updated to ascended stats that's in fact true for most players.

Not that the difference is a "P2W button", it's more that you buy a car that goes 200 mph and your opponents get one at 195 mph.
No guaranteed win but definitely an advantage. The fact that if you have seas of spare time you can grind yourself senseless to get one without spending RL Cash doesn't change that.

If I look at myself, I don't see myself getting a legendary at all. I have 3 lvl80s (and a 4th on her way since i also want a light armour class) and I'd rather spend my gold on exotic gear for those. Having the stats and looks that I want requires huge amounts of gold, especially when I want different sets for each one. Next to that I find legendaries look very ugly, there isn't a single one that even remotely comes close to my prefered (realistic) style.
Someone that spends lots of cash can have it all.

Edited by Arquenya, 24 December 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 24 December 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

It's not all that bad.

It's just that, given you spend less than maximum hours on the game or you're a smart TP player, someone that spends RL Cash on the game has a gear advantage over someone else. And when legendaries (now for sale on the TP) are updated to ascended stats that's in fact true for most players.

Not that the difference is a "P2W button", it's more that you buy a car that goes 200 mph and your opponents get one at 195 mph.
No guaranteed win but definitely an advantage. The fact that if you have seas of spare time you can grind yourself senseless to get one without spending RL Cash doesn't change that.

And what is "maximum hours"? 40h a week? 112h a week (that means playing constantly except for 8 hours of sleep each day).
And no, they won't have a "gear advantage" seeing as the ONLY way to have a gear advantage is in PvP, and guess what? Every one have the exact same stats available in PvP, no one can pay x amount of money to get better stats. Therefore it cannot be Pay to Win, since you can only ever Win in PvP.

You assume you will HAVE to have a Legendary to get the best stuff? I suppose you missed the fact that Legendaries will not be updated until there are Ascended Weapons aswell? So having a legendary would still only be cosmetic, therefore your point is moot.