195 replies to this topic

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 24 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

You assume you will HAVE to have a Legendary to get the best stuff? I suppose you missed the fact that Legendaries will not be updated until there are Ascended Weapons aswell? So having a legendary would still only be cosmetic, therefore your point is moot.

You can't say that, yet. We won't know how hard it is to get them, do we? Do you?
Especially if you have more than 1 lvl80 character.

I mean: I have 3 lvl80s, I play quite a lot (2,820 pts) and they're not all wearing 100% exotics yet.
Keep in mind that you need 13-15 pieces and 2-4 sigils and 6 sup runes per character.
Which isn't that easy to get (if you don't draw your wallet).

And if you want to change builds and have a different stat setup ... and the look you want (in my case: not looking like a barbarian, stormtrooper or spikey demon) ...
And then imagine the situation with ascended gear, which is even harder to get.

Edited by Arquenya, 24 December 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Arquenya, on 24 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

You can't say that, yet. We won't know how hard it is to get them, do we? Do you?
Especially if you have more than 1 lvl80 character.

I mean: I have 3 lvl80s, I play quite a lot and they're not even wearing 100% exotics yet.

So you try to tell us that it will be harder to get a Ascended Weapon than it will be to get a Legendary?
Seriously?

I find it highly unlikely that you would only be able to get Weapons in Fractals or whatever, they will most likely be almost as accessable as Exotics therefore there should not be a problem for someone that is active enough to actually need them to get them.
And the point still stands: The only place you can Win, is PvP and in PvP ever single player have the exact same gear available without paying anything.

[Arquenya]

Lordkrall, on 24 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

So you try to tell us that it will be harder to get a Ascended Weapon than it will be to get a Legendary?
Seriously?

Where did I say that?

Lordkrall, on 24 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I find it highly unlikely that you would only be able to get Weapons in Fractals or whatever, they will most likely be almost as accessable as Exotics therefore there should not be a problem for someone that is active enough to actually need them to get them.
And the point still stands: The only place you can Win, is PvP and in PvP ever single player have the exact same gear available without paying anything.

I thought you wore your own stuff in WvW?

And that's not my point, in my opinion there isn't anything to "win" in GW2. Just getting on par is challenging enough. And I bet that ascended gear won't be "as easy" to get as exotics. Especially with more characters and the look and stats you want.
Which in any case means more trips to the gem shop for fine T-Stones.

Edited by Arquenya, 24 December 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[Gileas898]

davadude, on 24 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

No, he simply states that you continue to ignore his point (and everybody who posts against your beliefs), and that it is best for us to treat you the same.

Coming from someone who obviously disagrees with me, you are not in a position to say that I ignore what you say, when from my point of view you ignore everything I say.

Red_Falcon, on 24 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

So if we're not discussing PvP or gear difference then where is this "pay to win" exactly?
P2W was coined for games that allow you to pay to be stronger than all others immediately, or obtain statistical advantages that non-payers either couldn't get or needed hundreds of hours to get.

You new gen kids just love to misuse common derogatory terms for everything you hate regardless of context.
If I had a penny for every time I heard "grind" and "pay 2 win" out of context just to bash a game...

Guild Wars has always been a game where there is a lot of competition between different groups of people within PvE.

Think of it as a racing game. Technically all you are trying to beat is whatever obstacles the specific race throws at you, not the other players. Does this mean there is no competition? No! When all is said and done your speed and efficiency will be compared to that of the other players.

Likewise, if there are 5 teams dedicated to completing X dungeon first or in the fastest manner, and some of these teams can afford to pay to have an advantage, the results will be skewed. Players who should not be able to complete a certain level of FotM can because they pop repair canisters and resurrection orbs. Thus, the prestige of these achievements will drop which is detrimental to the game.

Just look at Legendaries. They are to 90% a big fat money sink, and the prestige of obtaining one has dropped significantly due to it.

Look at Simin in Arah. You see 3-5 threads a week crying about how impossible she is. People want to achieve stuff that they normally would not be able to. In these threads a majority of the people will tell them that they are unworthy of the achievement, which is true. They do not deserve it.

But when it comes to repair canisters and resurrection orbs it suddenly is completely fine? I don't feel that way, I realize that you don't seem to care very much for it, but many people do, and it would diminish the value of achievements even more if worse items are introduced.

Edited by Gileas898, 24 December 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

God forbid a company actually makes money these days. Be real folks.

They're selling entertainment. People enjoy buying things with gems. Most of us enjoy the game and want it to last. For that, they have to make money. So, instead of forcing us to pay for tiny x-packs or paying a sub, they have designed a system in which a small percentage of the players pay a huge premium in cash to have stuff a little quicker, while most of us don't have to pay at all.

That's a pretty good system. Let those folks pay the tab.

Here are the facts:

Gems are here to stay.
Small advantages are available for gems.
Gems can be bought for cash or in game gold.

None of that is going to change. Everyone has to make a choice. Either you accept the system as is, or you reject it and don't pay, or maybe even quit.

The system will not change one iota. Unless they add a store only item that really gives a damage or armor advatage (not a Mr. Fix-It or Quickie Rez), there isn't going to be much uproar at this point.

Remember, they have the data. ALL the data. Let's say they suddenly see 200 people protest the gem store on the official forums. Then, they look at population number across the board and see 20,000 unique log ins for the week and steady gem sales numbers (as evidenced in the OP chart), what will they believe?

A forum protest? Or facts based on data mining?

So, the time has come to understand what type of game this is. It's a non subscription game with a relatively small and unimpressive cash shop.

Is that what you want to be playing?

If yes, stay.
If unsure, think on it.
If no, it's okay to move on.

The system will not change to suit the wants and needs of the few.

[Red_Falcon]

Gileas898, on 24 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Guild Wars has always been a game where there is a lot of competition between different groups of people within PvE.

Think of it as a racing game. Technically all you are trying to beat is whatever obstacles the specific race throws at you, not the other players. Does this mean there is no competition? No! When all is said and done your speed and efficiency will be compared to that of the other players.

Likewise, if there are 5 teams dedicated to completing X dungeon first or in the fastest manner, and some of these teams can afford to pay to have an advantage, the results will be skewed. Players who should not be able to complete a certain level of FotM can because they pop repair canisters and resurrection orbs. Thus, the prestige of these achievements will drop which is detrimental to the game.

Just look at Legendaries. They are to 90% a big fat money sink, and the prestige of obtaining one has dropped significantly due to it.

Look at Simin in Arah. You see 3-5 threads a week crying about how impossible she is. People want to achieve stuff that they normally would not be able to. In these threads a majority of the people will tell them that they are unworthy of the achievement, which is true. They do not deserve it.

But when it comes to repair canisters and resurrection orbs it suddenly is completely fine? I don't feel that way, I realize that you don't seem to care very much for it, but many people do, and it would diminish the value of achievements even more if worse items are introduced.

The shop has always been about saving cash and time since the beginning, it's nothing new, and it's absurd or ignorant to deem this as pay to win.
Also, complaining now about a feature that's been in before day 1 (they were there in BWEs) and won't go away because Anet needs to pay 300 employees and server through an innocent, non p2w shop accomplishes what, exactly?
This is plain and simple complaining for the sake of complaining and I'm sorry to be the one to tell you but things aren't shaped around you or me, and societies don't make a living off cheapos; deal with it or move on.

I'm actually thankful some people is wasting real money on that garbage, so they get nothing that affects me and Anet lives.
Two birds in one stone.

[davadude]

Gileas898, on 24 December 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Coming from someone who obviously disagrees with me, you are not in a position to say that I ignore what you say, when from my point of view you ignore everything I say.

I re-butted everything you stated or claimed in the earlier points.

[Daesu]

chrisbdrake, on 24 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Show me any evidence where either Anet or Nexon say that Nexon ordered this.

No you are right, they don't need to be profitable.  They are charitable organizations and their shareholders have infinite capital to support them forever.

[Brizna]

Op is exagerating and demagogic, so gem prices raises becuase people can't farm gold?? Quite the oposite, if that were the case shortage of gold would cause gem price to drop becuase of lack of gold to buy it.

And then you the fanboys that will basically shut their eyes and say it's anyone else's fault but Anet's.

The problem is GW2 has the bigest "bot farmer" problem in MMORPG's history, only it is them who are making the $$$ not some third party mafia, but the end result is of the same kind but to a greater scale than ever, hiper inflation on highly sought items(*), mostly precursors for legendaries.

I'm lucky I'm not playing to get a legendary, becuase if I did I wouldn't be playing the game, but I am infuriated by anyone who blindly supports Anet at everything they do even when it is somethign that is so obviously wrong and hurts the game for all their legit players. GW2 isn't F2P, it costs 50$, if Anet needs to make tons from gemshop to the point of behaving like a "gold spamer" then perhaps someone in Anet droped the boll when budgeting the development costs and sales. In any case it shouldn't be the customer who fçpay for that mistake.

[Nostredeus]

Trei, on 23 December 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Are you familiar with the concept of Supply and Demand?
You seemed to be... until you got to the pink text.

So are people trying to farm gold to buy gems or gear?
Or are you saying people are trying to farm gold to buy gems so they can sell for gold to buy gear?

The thread ended here.

[Gileas898]

Red_Falcon, on 24 December 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

The shop has always been about saving cash and time since the beginning, it's nothing new, and it's absurd or ignorant to deem this as pay to win.
Also, complaining now about a feature that's been in before day 1 (they were there in BWEs) and won't go away because Anet needs to pay 300 employees and server through an innocent, non p2w shop accomplishes what, exactly?
This is plain and simple complaining for the sake of complaining and I'm sorry to be the one to tell you but things aren't shaped around you or me, and societies don't make a living off cheapos; deal with it or move on.

I'm actually thankful some people is wasting real money on that garbage, so they get nothing that affects me and Anet lives.
Two birds in one stone.

A repair canister in FotM can save 1-2h, whereas a repair canister before FotM would save you 2 minutes.

Do you see the difference? FotM was balanced around having a repair every 3 fractals. Dungeons before it were designed around having repair available at all times.

[Jackiepro]

Why does it concern you that others can have things like repair canisters? I just laugh that they require such thing to complete such easy content.

Newsflash: If you find yourself needing repair canisters and alternate sets and such things in a dungeon run, perhaps consider improving your own gameplay before you start going on an absolute tangent and blaming the company that other people can bypass things that you fail at because you dont know how to play and execute basic game mechanics.

Pve is really not that hard, there is close to NOTHING challenging pve wise except some of the higher fractal levels, and the players that get there arent the kind who need cash shop crap anyways. I literally did not once consider that other people may be beneffiting from a cash shop and that my short comings as a player should be blamed on Anet.

If other people are spending cash on the game thats good for us, I personally enjoy the fact that I am completing things others are spending real cash to complete, knowing that it will be dumped into content for me in the future if Anet succeeds.

My tip? Just play the game and get better, instead of complaining about who has what, also lol @ legendaries, I got the world first rifle, and I didnt spend a dime on cash shop crap as im just a university student (full time engineer before you complain about nolifing, which I ofc did some of but did have responsibilities). I certainly wouldnt pay 7,000$ for a legendary weapon... I would go buy a car with that kind of cash...

[DuskWolf]

I actually appreciate the OP doing this because it proves what I've said all along.

I'm not being nasty, I never have been. I'm just really tired of predatory business tactics, and not just in GW2, but in free to play games in general, on the mobile market, and so on. Essentially it's a kind of gamble, it's a massive fog between price and product. You're paying a price for a product you might not get, or for a sort of product you might not have expected. And then the environment is shaped as such to convince you to continue to splash gold around, and with each passing month the environment will be changed a little so that you splash ever more of it around.

I have a group that I run with, my social circle, and we all see that this is what's going on. And we try to tell people not to be foolish and not to waste their money. There is the old axiom that a fool and their money are soon parted, but it doesn't make you feel any better, does it? If ArenaNet were the paragons they were supposed to be, they'd just sell access to each zone as a simple price-for-product transaction, rather than using obfuscated and predatory business tactics like the gem system to make money. At the moment, GW2 is as bad as Maple Story or Farmville ever was.

But the difference is is that you don't see people jumping to the defence of Maple Story or Farmville. Everyone knows the score there, so they don't feel that it's smart to try and defend them. The sad truth is, ladies and gents, is that this isn't the ArenaNet we once knew. There are plenty of honourable and non-predatory ways to make money. In fact, let me tell you a story about a company I've learned to respect, and that company is Bethesda. See, they slipped up once, they sold horse armour for Oblivion, and their fans didn't like that. People found it to be a shady thing to do. It wasn't even outright predatory in the way that the goldgems system is, it was just... well, a weird thing to do. They were selling, for a high price, something that should have been patched into the game.

So what did they do to rectify this? They made a number of substantially large DLCs for Oblivion, then they made an expansion pack. For Fallout 3, they endeavoured to make each DLC large. These DLCs might not have been to anyone's tastes, but they were good value, they weren't just a rip-off. And with every GOTY version of a game, they included their DLC. Then Skyrim came along and, bless 'em, they kept up this trend. The DLC was beefy and value for money, and it didn't take anything away from the game to not have them. Each DLC was its own self-contained thing. Moreover, they even listened to what people wanted from DLC in order to make it.

So the end result is is that for all Bethesda might have done, I respect them for treating us like people. For respecting us enough to believe that we're not dumb. Now, what if we had ArenaNet making Skyrim? Well, what would have happened is that gold would hardly have dropped in the game, for starters. Then you would have had to have bought amazingly expensive ingredients for whenever you wanted to craft, dipping into your gold reserves, and there would have been a nasty tax on fast travel, too. Oh, and the best gear and items would be sold for prices you couldn't afford, some stuff would drop, as a gesture of 'good will,' but they'd decrease those drop rates over time. So after paying the box price for Skyrim, you'd then be frequently buying gems just so that you could play the game.

Except Bethesda doesn't do that. ArenaNet does.

See, that's my major issue, here. And like I said, it's not exclusively an issue with ArenaNet, but with predatory business practises in general. Whether it's free to play ones, mobile ones, or what have you. And every time we do something like buying gems, we're telling a business that it's okay for them to manipulate us, it's okay for them to treat us like we're stupid, it's okay for them to take advantage of us, it's okay for them to be too lazy to create a product worth buying (since they can just make their money other ways), and so on. Outside of the Internet, we have regulatory committees to make sure that people can't be exploited like this, but the whole online scene is a wild west.

For what I hope are obvious reasons, I respect Bethesda but I don't respect ArenaNet. I wish ArenaNet were more like Bethesda. There are ways you can make money honestly and be a massive success, Bethesda proves this. ArenaNet is not your friend, they're a business, they exist to make money. And if they're not making money honestly and they're taking advantage of you, then you should stop giving them your money.

[Nitroglicerin]

Nostrecorax, on 24 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

The thread ended here.

The thread will end either when ArenaNet assumes their shadowy deeds and correct them or when they start to merge servers inbound final collapse..

Merry Christmas!

P.S. - Never underestimate the determination of the MMO´s player base! We create worlds or tear them apart!

Edited by Nitroglicerin, 24 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Darkobra]

Nitroglicerin, on 24 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

P.S. - Never underestimate the determination of the MMO´s player base! We create worlds or tear them apart!

Probably true 10 years ago. Ever wondered why games are getting easier? Because that's where the money's at. The casual market spend far more on games than I ever have. And I collect them! I have the Alduin statue on my wardrobe! Duke Nukem's bust! Vault Boy's bobble-head!

And from the trend of this thread on a forum, I can't see any tearing apart worlds going on.

[Kattar]

Nitroglicerin, on 24 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

The thread will end either when ArenaNet assumes their shadowy deeds and correct them or when they start to merge servers inbound final collapse..

Merry Christmas!

P.S. - Never underestimate the determination of the MMO´s player base! We create worlds or tear them apart!

Incorrect.

You've all fairly well shown that you're divided into two camps, so it doesn't seem like there's anything left to be done here. Especially since the OP has already declared victory.

Thread posting 101: Threads are for discussion, not for stating your opinion and then shouting NO, YOU'RE WRONG for 9 pages. That kind of thing belongs on a blog, not on a forum.