Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

Human vrs Charr Culture

human charr culture

  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Brynjar

Brynjar

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 456 posts

Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

So, I just got off a 5-hr watch during which I had plenty of time to stare off into space and think about Guild Wars 2. Specifically, I was thinking about the differences between culture in humans and charr.  My conclusion is that humans, or at least Krytan humans, have a culture which assumes peace, while charr have a culture that assumes war.

Now, with humans, consider how their society is divided in character creation. It's divided by blood and money; into nobility, commoners, and the impoverished. Now, historically, nobles were essentially rich land-owners who had influence at a royal court. Enough time passes, and you have a nice noble lineage and can turn up your noses at more people. But this is an assumption of peace - accumulation of wealth, a focus on economics. Even the fact that nobility is hereditary.

On the other hand, charr culture is divided into Legions. Even if we ignore the name, let's look at what the Legions are. They're purely military - you have the the frontline soldiers, the battlefield support, and the supply corps (Blood, Ash/Flame, and Iron respectively). Even the basic childhood of a charr is focused entirely on war - a cub is taken from its family, taught how to fight, then put in a warband.

But the essential part of my point of assuming war or peace is what happens if we actually have peace. Now, imagine the Krytans were suddenly at peace. Total peace, not an uneasy cease-fire. Everybody suddenly likes everyone, the dragons turn into talking ponies with tattoos, sunlight and happiness for all. What happens to their culture? Not a lot. Their army might be disbanded, but that just sends people back to their families and they get other jobs. Their cities would be the same, their circuses the same, their government the same. For the majority of humans, day to day life wouldn't change except for the lack of centaurs trying to kill them every 28 minutes.

Now imagine the charr at peace. It's completely different. Take the Legions again - Blood Legion is suddenly useless. There's no one to fight. The Legion would simply dissolve. Same with the Ash Legion. Only Iron Legion would survive, and that's because they could just build different stuff. But the other two would suddenly be jobless.

Then take their very childhood. Warbands? Gone. There'd be no point. Charr would suddenly find themselves going up as families with no idea how to do that. All of the pride in their race and themselves is based around their ability to fight. What would happen if there was no one to fight?


That, if anything, is probably going to be the largest obstacle to ultimate peace with humanity. I don't know if the charr culture could accept peace. They wouldn't know what to do with it.

#2 Trei

Trei

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2930 posts
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 23 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

View PostBrynjar, on 23 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

...Now imagine the charr at peace. It's completely different. Take the Legions again - Blood Legion is suddenly useless. There's no one to fight. The Legion wo....
Consider this:

The charr could be at peace precisely because of the existence of the Legions.
An armed force is as much a weapon to strike others as a deterrence to prevent others from having thoughts to strike self.

But yeah, it is likely the charr would always be looking for an excuse to attack somebody somewhere.

Edited by Trei, 23 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#3 Daenerys

Daenerys

    Secretly Christopher Walken

  • Moderators
  • 484 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

Interesting. I don't think that the legions would dissolve, though.

If they did dissolve, I think it would probably be into one large one instead of reverting back to how it was for them before they all united and so on. Perhaps if they did dissolve, we'd get another Khan Ur somehow. But I think that they would still have things to do... I just really can't imagine what.

Questions? Comments? Conversation? Drop me a message!


#4 NuclearDonut

NuclearDonut

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 684 posts

Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Blood Legion soldiers could become heavy lifters and workers for this new utopia. Ash Legion soldiers could become farmers or diplomats. I agree the Charr would be kind of lost, but there are still uses for them.

#5 Red J

Red J

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 712 posts
  • Guild Tag:[LoA]
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

I don't think Charr would accept peace. Should they have no one else to fight, the legions would sooner or later turn on each other, just as they did after assassination of Khan-ur.

There is no peace for Charr.

#6 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:35 AM

I think Red's comment would be applicable in the past, but the charr have been learning how to get along with each other and with other races over the centuries.

The fahrar system appears to be based loosely on the Spartan system, and that's one they maintained pretty much regardless of whether there was war or peace. In fact, historically the Spartans were one of the less aggressive of the Greek city-states, probably partly because it was expected that the Spartan kings would be on the front lines and thus putting themselves at risk, which wasn't necessarily the case with some of the others. Instead, the Spartans were practically the epitome of 'if you want peace, prepare for war'.

If complete peace came around, I think the charr society would survive, or at least be able to adjust with steady change rather than an overthrow of the current situation. Iron Legion, as discussed above, is an industrial powerhouse, and while the others don't match the Iron, they're no luddites as shown in (ironically) the Iron Legion personal story. Each legion has their focus, but none of them are one-dimensional.

When you look at the others... as people have said, Ash Legion's penchant for meddlery would probably make them decent merchants and diplomats, and even in times of complete peace there is probably going to be espionage and counter-espionage. I've also been getting the impression that the Blood Legion might be the best beastmasters among the charr - while focused more on producing beasts of war, that's something that can probably be turned to peacetime pursuits, as well as the previous discussion of heavy labour.

Total peace is unlikely, though. Even if all the sapient species are getting along, there are probably still going to be threats to fight, and soldiers of all legions and races will be needed to fight them.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#7 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

    Manager of the Void

  • Site Contributors
  • 9534 posts
  • Location:Inside you.
  • Guild Tag:[Lore]

Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:12 AM

I wouldn't really say human culture is built upon the assumption of peace. Look at Kryta, more than half of their villages, towns, and cities are walled in - Divinity's Reach, Claypool, Beetletun, Fort Salma, Nebo Terrace and Ascalon Settlement are all walled in. Shaemoor isn't, but is protected by a garrison and is just outside Divinity's Reach, Garrenholf isn't but is protected by Isgarren, then you have Quarryside, Triskel Quay, and some destroyed villages (most being on the shores or near Viathan Lake). There's also Seraph's Landing, which was a village and is also walled, and even Demetre was walled. Even the Eldvin Monastery is walled in.

And these walls weren't all built due to the centaur war (Divinity's Reach's walls weren't at least).

Krytan society seems to me to be more built upon the concept of defense and living life while you can. Which means for those not on the front line, you live life as if you're in peace until you can't anymore.

Durmand Priory|Library of Whispers|GuildMag
"...I received a 400-page bible document for the world..." - J.Robert King
I want. I want bad.


#8 Brynjar

Brynjar

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 456 posts

Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

I would say that their culture assumes peace, but their architecture allows for the possibility of war.

As for the charr, it's a good point about the Spartans and how the Legions besides the Iron Legion might be able to adapt to peace-time activities. I do think that the charr switching over to peace would be mopre difficult than the same transition for any other race, though - not just humans, but norn and asura would both easily abandon warfare. The norn would go back to their hunting and drinking, the asura to their labs. The sylvari, I can't really say about a culture of peace or war - they aren't really old enough as a race to have any culture.

#9 Valkaire

Valkaire

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 673 posts
  • Guild Tag:[Fire]
  • Server:Sea of Sorrows

Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:02 AM

I think the way you're thinking of this is too black and white. Sure, there's war and peace but what about in between? To me, the only really big thing is that the majority of Charr are put into the military from birth, while the majority of humans aren't soldiers, nevermind soldiers from birth. I can see that if this "true peace" is ever achieved the charr will focus more on development and maybe exploration.

As for the Sylvari, it's kind of...wrong to say that just because they're a new race that they don't have any culture. Their culture, at the moment (don't forget that that kind of thing can change over the years depending on a variety of factors), is very much about learning and exploration. I can see the Sylvari branching out (hehe, get it?) all across Tyria, perhaps jumping on the exploration missions that would inevitably be springing up in great numbers (I believe that's something the Charr would jump on as well, new lands normally mean new dangers/challenges).

Edited by Valkaire, 24 December 2012 - 02:03 AM.


#10 Gerroh

Gerroh

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 572 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Guild Tag:[Nope]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:55 AM

View PostBrynjar, on 23 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Now imagine the charr at peace. It's completely different. Take the Legions again - Blood Legion is suddenly useless. There's no one to fight. The Legion would simply dissolve. Same with the Ash Legion. Only Iron Legion would survive, and that's because they could just build different stuff. But the other two would suddenly be jobless.

Then take their very childhood. Warbands? Gone. There'd be no point. Charr would suddenly find themselves going up as families with no idea how to do that. All of the pride in their race and themselves is based around their ability to fight. What would happen if there was no one to fight?


That, if anything, is probably going to be the largest obstacle to ultimate peace with humanity. I don't know if the charr culture could accept peace. They wouldn't know what to do with it.

I get what you're saying, and you make some good points, but there's a real-world nation very much similar to the charr in this respect.
The USA.
It has the biggest military in the world, by far, and while plenty of Americans want peace, I think it's fair to say that Americans are more ready to go to war than the people of (most) other nations.
What do Americans do during peace time? Depends who you ask, I don't want to start a political argument so I won't give my view of it, but just whatever you think Americans do during peace time is what you should think the charr would do during peace time.

Yes, I'm aware Americans don't send their kids off to become soldiers or any of that sort of thing, I'm mostly just talking about the whole "legions would dissolve" point.

Edited by Gerroh, 24 December 2012 - 02:57 AM.


#11 Quorrah

Quorrah

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 142 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:45 AM

Charr? Peace? No war? lol! :lol:

When viewing the Humans anyway I always got the feeling that the Krytans were more peaceful, into art and culture and the Ascalonians were more into military and order (even if they had the more beautiful land in GW1 imo) Now in Ebonhawke, the direct descendants of those in ancient Ascalon, they are kinda forced to live the militaristic lifestyle as those before them lived in wartime with direct fights againt the Charr. It seems as much as they hate each other, they did rub off on one another. Tender. :qq:

Sorry, I don't really know where I was going with that....

Edited by Quorrah, 24 December 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#12 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

    Manager of the Void

  • Site Contributors
  • 9534 posts
  • Location:Inside you.
  • Guild Tag:[Lore]

Posted 24 December 2012 - 08:16 AM

View PostBrynjar, on 24 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I would say that their culture assumes peace, but their architecture allows for the possibility of war.
But even in times of peace - something albeit very rare for humans - they still have large standing militaries for defense (the Lionguard are how old?). Even their more religious groups are combatants, and their culture has always had combative guilds.

I still would argue that their culture isn't one of assuming peace, but trying to live as if they were in peace - because there's always (or almost always) a threat to them.

Durmand Priory|Library of Whispers|GuildMag
"...I received a 400-page bible document for the world..." - J.Robert King
I want. I want bad.


#13 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

I think Brynjar's point was that while Krytan (and, for that matter, sylvari) society has sections whose purpose is to conduct warfare in wartime and prepare to fight in peacetime, neither society's structure is based on the assumption that there will be fighting. Saying that they're made on an assumption of peace might be overstating the difference, but they're not built around the assumption of war like charr society is.

That said, humans in general and Kryta in particular has known times of relative peace. Most of the time before the Guild Wars. Most of the time between War in Kryta and Edge of Destiny (Jennah describes DR as a 'city of peace' in EoD, suggesting that the centaurs weren't engaging in full-scale invasion at the time) - while humans were technically at war with the charr, the fighting was happening a long way away. Charr, on the other hand, have been on a war footing all of their history - against each other, against their neighbours under the Khan-Ur, against humans and each other until unification under the Titans and again after the rebellion started.Thus, the reason for the cultural difference is fairly plain - humans know that war is possible and thus that there need to be people to fight when needed, while the charr pretty much historically have only known war.

Conversely, I wouldn't say that their culture is one of trying to live as if they were in peace - because that implies their culture is aiming at a baseline that doesn't exist. It's more accurate to say that their culture is one that's most functional during times of peace (or, at least, when the fighting is kept at a sufficient distance) and thus their culture is based on peacetime, and during wartime they do their best to maintain what they're used to.

This has got a bit rambly, and I'm not sure I've got my point across, but the short form is that while it's an oversimplification to say that Krytan culture is based on the assumption of peace, it probably is fair to say that it's based on the assumption that, while there are dangers around, the majority of the people will be living in peace the majority of the time, while charr society is based around a permanent wartime footing.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#14 Red J

Red J

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 712 posts
  • Guild Tag:[LoA]
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 24 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

View Postdraxynnic, on 24 December 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

I think Red's comment would be applicable in the past, but the charr have been learning how to get along with each other and with other races over the centuries.
-snip-

From what I've seen during my playthrough, there is still a lot of tension between the legions, seemingly held back only by the constant threat of ghosts and flame legion. Yes, they've been learning how to get along with each other, but it's mainly because of the effort of Smodur and the ash legion imperator whose name I forgot. There is still a lot of hate among lower rank charr, and also you've got Bengar (I think), the blood legion imperator whose name I can't recall too, who is the real wild card. I've got an impression he would gladly turn on ash or iron, if both legions weren't allies because of external threats. Now take away ghosts, flame legion, branded and separatists and you've got Ascalon full of angry, war mongering folk who have suddenly nothing to do. Blood legion would be the first one to pull a trigger.

Edited by Red J, 24 December 2012 - 11:48 AM.


#15 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:09 PM

The key word is "learnING". The circumstances that the charr are in at the moment - congenial relations with three different species, and having made a peace with one that not too long ago their society had been geared around fighting without having first achieved total victory - would have been unthinkable a few centuries ago, certainly before first contact with the norn.

Another thing to consider is that even today, charr culture can be described as rough. Fighting is something they enjoy immensely, whether a serious battle to the death or an evening's brawling. A lot of the apparent animosity between Blood, Ash and Iron can probably be marked up to their equivalent of Australians and New Zealanders or English and Welsh accusing one another of sheep molesting among other, more directed insults - it may lead to the occasional fight, but it's hardly a sign that the sides involved are itching to go to war against one another for real.

Now, what we've heard of Bangar is giving me the impression he's probably going to go rogue at some stage - but I suspect that's more likely to end up being a situation where he'll get replaced. Malice and Smodur, as you say, seem to be pretty closely allied and chasing similar goals (including lasting peace between the legions), to the point where I have a feeling Malice may be willing to support Smodur for Khan-Ur if push came to shove. Even with outside pressures removed from the equation, if those two stick together than Bangar would be facing a losing proposition if he started a fight unless he allied with the Flame Legion to do so - and given Bangar's attitude towards humanity, I could see Ebonhawke and possibly even Kryta and the Pact weighing in on the side of Iron and Ash.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#16 Steadfast Gao Shun

Steadfast Gao Shun

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 128 posts
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

Malice wouldn't support Smodur for Khan-Ur. Furthermore, their legions wouldn't stand for it, even if the top leadership wanted to. Remember that Rytlock explains that Charr follow orders - until the orders demonstrate incompetence, then it becomes perfectly reasonable for them to dispose of their superior and get promoted.

For me, an important thing to keep in mind is that charr are not fuzzy humans. Their morality operates on an entirely different basis and perspective. Realistically, we (the readers) would have as much in common with them as say, a spider. You may be able to draw parallels and similarities, but to interpret their actions in context of humanity feels a bit off to me.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 27 December 2012 - 06:08 PM.


#17 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

Dude. With the world as it is, the Charr will never run out of enemies.

We have three elder dragons currently roaming about, along with all their minions (Zhaitan and the Risen, Jormag and the Icebrood, Kralkatorrik and the Branded), we have an entire civilization of communist moles to root out, an endless supply of ghosts to put down, and the remnants of the Flame Legion and Ascalonian separatists.

If that's not enough, their tenuous alliance with the Norn is really more of a detente based on mutual respect of military prowess, and it's really only a matter of time for the Krytan humans' leadership to implode and do something stupid. Finally, if there's any threat to Charr expansionism, it'll be the Asura.

And if all else fails, there's always each other.

Edited by Nalano, 27 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#18 Daenerys

Daenerys

    Secretly Christopher Walken

  • Moderators
  • 484 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin
  • Profession:Necromancer
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

If I assume correctly, this discussion is about the situation where the Charr don't have any enemies to fight, where they don't have any other options but to be at peace. Technically we have five or six known Elder Dragons in the world, and the area we occupy so far in Guild Wars 2 is extremely tiny. Imagine all of those threats that you listed are completely gone and the world is at total peace.

Questions? Comments? Conversation? Drop me a message!


#19 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

View PostMockingjay74, on 27 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

If I assume correctly, this discussion is about the situation where the Charr don't have any enemies to fight, where they don't have any other options but to be at peace. Technically we have five or six known Elder Dragons in the world, and the area we occupy so far in Guild Wars 2 is extremely tiny. Imagine all of those threats that you listed are completely gone and the world is at total peace.

And I was pointing out that three of those elder dragons are active and at their doorstep, and such peace is unlikely to happen for a long, long time.

#20 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:04 AM

View PostSteadfast Gao Shun, on 27 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Malice wouldn't support Smodur for Khan-Ur. Furthermore, their legions wouldn't stand for it, even if the top leadership wanted to. Remember that Rytlock explains that Charr follow orders - until the orders demonstrate incompetence, then it becomes perfectly reasonable for them to dispose of their superior and get promoted.
Malice did support an operation that lead to Smodur being given the Claw of the Khan-Ur. That suggests that either she has a cunning plan to stop that from being too much of an advantage for Smodur, or she's at least open to the idea. One legion openly supporting another for the Khan-Urship may be unprecedented, but so is the truce with humanity and the efforts of the charr to unify with the other races rather than conquer and enslave them. Compare the attitudes towards foreign policy by European nations today to 1750, and they're behaving very differently to each other and to non-Europeans now than during the height of the colonial period - is it unreasonable to think that charr attitudes might also be changing? I don't think so.

In the case of the Ash Legion - it's plausible that Ash has decided that even if they'd rather have one of their own be the Khan-Ur, they'd rather raise a Khan-Ur that they respect from another legion then continue to have no Khan-Ur at all with all the attendant issues (including the continuing risk that someday some other Khan-Ur that they don't regard as worthy will seize power). It's also possible, given the Ash focus on espionage, that they don't have the conventional forces to make a serious bid for the Khan-Urship themselves and they know this - but being the kingmakers is still a good position to be in.

Another consideration is that the origin of the Ash Legion is not too dissimilar to the Order of Whispers - Ash was founded by the Khan-Ur's spymaster, the Order out of Turai's spy network. It's possible that Ash doesn't actually want the throne for themselves, just to make sure that whoever does get it is worthy of the title.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#21 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

    Manager of the Void

  • Site Contributors
  • 9534 posts
  • Location:Inside you.
  • Guild Tag:[Lore]

Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:29 AM

View PostNalano, on 27 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

We have three elder dragons currently roaming about, along with all their minions (Zhaitan and the Risen, Jormag and the Icebrood, Kralkatorrik and the Branded), we have an entire civilization of communist moles to root out, an endless supply of ghosts to put down, and the remnants of the Flame Legion and Ascalonian separatists.
Three Elder Dragons? Slight miscalculation there.

Zhaitan is dead, and Primordus and the DSD are out there, and there's mister Sixth which hasn't shown his face - he can pop up. So there's either four, or five Elder Dragons roaming about around Tyria (I do not consider Jormag to be "in" continental Tyria, since it seems he's been expanding north as well into the arctic sea, hence the presence of the kodan, and the DSD certainly isn't - and who knows where Mordremoth (the supposed name of the sixth ED) is, or if the jotun were right with there being only six Elder Dragons - given the size of the world, there can be many more).

Then there's also more issues: remnant risen, Palawa Joko, ogres, and who knows what lies in the east.

Durmand Priory|Library of Whispers|GuildMag
"...I received a 400-page bible document for the world..." - J.Robert King
I want. I want bad.


#22 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 28 December 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Three Elder Dragons? Slight miscalculation there.

Zhaitan is dead, and Primordus and the DSD are out there, and there's mister Sixth which hasn't shown his face - he can pop up. So there's either four, or five Elder Dragons roaming about around Tyria (I do not consider Jormag to be "in" continental Tyria, since it seems he's been expanding north as well into the arctic sea, hence the presence of the kodan, and the DSD certainly isn't - and who knows where Mordremoth (the supposed name of the sixth ED) is, or if the jotun were right with there being only six Elder Dragons - given the size of the world, there can be many more).

Then there's also more issues: remnant risen, Palawa Joko, ogres, and who knows what lies in the east.

I'm going by the minions I see. I see Risen, Icebrood and Branded. I don't see the minions of these other dragons you mention. So, I didn't list them.

And as far as I'm concerned, Zhaitan isn't dead until he's canonically dead. Running an instance ain't cutting it, as I can start it again and he's still alive.

#23 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

    Manager of the Void

  • Site Contributors
  • 9534 posts
  • Location:Inside you.
  • Guild Tag:[Lore]

Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:35 AM

You dont see destroyers? They're in Kessex Hills, Brisban Wildlands, Lornar's Pass, Mount Maelstorm (that one has a whole meta event focused on them), they're in the skritt personal storyline, and the Statics asura one too (if not more!), and they're featured in the Crucible of Eternity. Destroyers are also the primary foes of Guild Wars Eye of the Noth.

The Crucible of Eternity also features a lot of Summoned Husks, in the same manner they feature Destroyers and Icebrood, implying they're Modremoth's minions - or related to.

And Zhaitan's canonically dead. He died in the storyline, irregardless of your ability to go back in time (though this is only a mechanical aspect) and repeat the dungeon - there's even a cinematic of Trahearne explaining that Zhaitan is dead, but the risen remain a threat, though their growth in numbers has stiffened greatly and its only a matter of time before they're all killed. To say Zhaitan isn't dead yet is like saying Togo never died in Factions because you can restart each mission, despite his death is commented right after the mission he dies in. If it happened once - regardless of repetition - it bloody happened. Zhaitan. Is. Dead.

Durmand Priory|Library of Whispers|GuildMag
"...I received a 400-page bible document for the world..." - J.Robert King
I want. I want bad.


#24 draxynnic

draxynnic

    Lorebug

  • Moderators
  • 7659 posts
  • Server:Sanctum of Rall

Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

With the exception of Glint in the Dragon's Lair bonus, but that could be explained by her being resurrected by a Forgotten Priest nearby or left for dead when she actually wasn't. Presumably, though, someone's checked that Zhaitan is actually dead.
Got any comments or queries about moderation in one of my spheres of responsibility? Make sure I get the message!

#25 Brynjar

Brynjar

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 456 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

To amble slowly back toward the original topic, I'd agree that we've seen the charr move toward a shift in their relationships with the other races, but I haven't seen (and I haven't played a charr yet, just gone through their starting zone on a norn) any real shift in their system of family and upbringing. That, if nothing else, would be something I'd expect to see if they ever stumbled into a world completely at peace.

Right now, the base of charr society seems to be cubs being trained in combat in groups that become warbands, who make up the armies, who make up the Legions. All very militarized and structured.

However, if there was peace, would this still be necessary or even practical? Would we see the concept of fahrars and warbands applied to basic industry (i.e., the Iron Legion writ large and without the explosions) and such? What would the Blood Legion do? Would they all be simply reassigned to the Iron Legio, would they be given new, civilian, assignments, would they be largely disbanded and left to choose what they want to do with the rest of their lives?

#26 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

    Manager of the Void

  • Site Contributors
  • 9534 posts
  • Location:Inside you.
  • Guild Tag:[Lore]

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

I don't really see fahrar's as "training for combat" but rather "training to work in highly efficient groups" and part of that simply involves combat - not all warbands make up the armies. There are warband who's job is to mine, be ranchers, maintain machines, clean the environment, manage junkyards, and many other things.

As a charr in Fields of Ruin says, fahrar's are a necessary part of charr society due to the bonds formed - they acknowledge how humans think its "wrong" to put cubs in combative situations, but they see it as a means to form strong bonds with others of similar ages, something that human society lacks completely.

To the charr, fahrars and warbands aren't (solely) military training or for military purposes. Its meant first and foremost to establish relations with others and learn to work diligently for what society needs you to be.

Durmand Priory|Library of Whispers|GuildMag
"...I received a 400-page bible document for the world..." - J.Robert King
I want. I want bad.


#27 PheBelladona

PheBelladona

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

If the Charr are at peace then that means every other species they can see is dead or enslaved, they will then focus on occupying land or a civil war. Charr peace time doesnt exist.

#28 Zunnash

Zunnash

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostSteadfast Gao Shun, on 27 December 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Malice wouldn't support Smodur for Khan-Ur. Furthermore, their legions wouldn't stand for it, even if the top leadership wanted to. Remember that Rytlock explains that Charr follow orders - until the orders demonstrate incompetence, then it becomes perfectly reasonable for them to dispose of their superior and get promoted.

For me, an important thing to keep in mind is that charr are not fuzzy humans. Their morality operates on an entirely different basis and perspective. Realistically, we (the readers) would have as much in common with them as say, a spider. You may be able to draw parallels and similarities, but to interpret their actions in context of humanity feels a bit off to me.
If I recall Smodur not only doesn't want to be the Khan-Ur but he wants to destroy the claw as a symbol of abolishing the habits of the past and adapting to the future.  His greatest fear is a reversion to the past and destructive civil war.  As far as the spider thing goes, the lore is very specific in emphasizing that the Charr may be different but they in fact are not as alien to humans as it may seem.  Ember in Ghosts of Ascalon says the Charr "are not stone" and that their relationships have "stage drama" just as human ones do, even if their relationships are usually much more casual.  There are many other examples that just that as well.  For example the Charr do not believe in showing weakness but that doesn't mean they do not have it.  They learn (and usually excel at) keeping their worries and feelings subdued to not show that weakness to enemies or let it interfere with their performance or duty.  It's been confirmed several times that they do mourn in private for example. How common it is for Charr to be open to each other I don't know, and I don't pretend to exaclty understand them. They are far more like humans than different though, and certainly not as different as the spider example implies.

View PostPheBelladona, on 16 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

If the Charr are at peace then that means every other species they can see is dead or enslaved, they will then focus on occupying land or a civil war. Charr peace time doesnt exist.

I quote this because again this is Smodur's fear but not a reflection of a never-changing reality.  He (and for that matter many other Charr) wants that to change. Some oppose it, many support truce, and a few even want peace.  It's a fragile and gradual change and you can see the different facets (and resistance) to it in the game.

A Charr societly largely at peace would not mean without military structure or capability.  There will always be threats of some sort even if there is not active all out war, and even if there weren't I suspect the Charr would always take pride in being ready for any potential threats.  Peace doesn't mean demilitarization.

This isn't the only example but I remembered I had a screenshot of it:
Attached File  brand.jpg   218.76K   16 downloads

Edited by Zunnash, 09 February 2013 - 10:01 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: human, charr, culture

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users