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hexes are needed to add combat depth thats lacking atm


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#1 stormofstatic

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

the combat system might be less boring if they put hexes back in

take  ele vs war

war is using all signets ele uses rust all war signets are usless now(inc passive effects)

their are no skills in the game like SS backfire empthy ect skills that do

xx dmg then x dmg after xx secs or
x dmg when y does x
target takes more dmg from cold dmg
next cold attack interupts

did anet ever say why hexes were not in gw2 ?

#2 xycury

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

you mean the combat system might be more convoluted if they put hexes back in.

You'd have to build skills around hex removal... which would continue the horizontal balance of all skills.

There are hexes in game but they take on a different flavor in how they are applied.

Give the Mesmer clones and Illusions, they die when the character/enemy is dead like Hexes.  They do DoT like many hexes.  And instead of reactionary damage, they are a constant till you either destroy the mesmer, or the clone/illusion.

Necros have marks that are a physical representation of a hex that dishes out conditions.

AND instead of watching for teeny tiny icons and getting rid of them, GW2 is more action oriented instead.

This system is far better than hexes.

#3 cookieeater1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

View Poststormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

their are no skills in the game like SS backfire empthy ect skills that do

x dmg when y does x
You're forgetting about the confusion condition.

Personally, I think the game is better without hexes. Hexway was stupidly easy and effective and I don't really see what they can do without creating that again if they were to add them. I think they got rid of them for the same reason they got rid of thousands of enchantments; simplification.

#4 FoxBat

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

Condition stacking and caps needs to be looked at, not return of hexdumb.

I do wish confusion worked more like backfire (big damage, short duration/long cooldown/non stacking, maybe only applies to non-1 skills) but that ship has sailed.

#5 Brizna

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

Xycury, you are right, we have hexe-likes they are just more obtuse and convoluted. That hex icon you despise is a neat and precise manner to convey information, now there is no organized way to present info, it's just a wonderfull world of animations that takes 20 times longer to learn and often doesn't include at all the most relevant info.

#6 FoxBat

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostBrizna, on 27 December 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Xycury, you are right, we have hexe-likes they are just more obtuse and convoluted. That hex icon you despise is a neat and precise manner to convey information, now there is no organized way to present info, it's just a wonderfull world of animations that takes 20 times longer to learn and often doesn't include at all the most relevant info.


Conditions have icons and mouse-over descriptions, and are few and easily learned. The lack of skill icons/descriptions on enemy activated skills is a different matter entirely and has nothing specific to do with hexes. I pretty much agree it leaves much to be desired, but it's completely irrelevant to hexes vs. conditions.

Edited by FoxBat, 27 December 2012 - 04:22 PM.


#7 xycury

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

View PostBrizna, on 27 December 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Xycury, you are right, we have hexe-likes they are just more obtuse and convoluted. That hex icon you despise is a neat and precise manner to convey information, now there is no organized way to present info, it's just a wonderfull world of animations that takes 20 times longer to learn and often doesn't include at all the most relevant info.

are you a clone of the OP?  because you're making the same  argument.

instead of a icon saying you have a hex, you have a clone or Illusion attacking you.  if you want to get rid of that hex, you destroy the Mesmer or the clone/illusion.  <--this is by far more better than GW1, where you have hex covering and stacking which would completely ruin the game due to balance.  

there isn't anything to learn, it's on your screen, do something about it.  GW2 is very action oriented, and doesn't play out like GW1 which was mainly reactive (Hex Removal).  

Plus your build and everyone else's build will be far easier to play with when you don't have to bring 2/3 skills because of all the hexing.

And what about enchantments?  any argument from that? because it would be the same thing.

#8 stormofstatic

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

boons are enchantments

#9 Arewn

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

Complexity does not equal depth.
Adding something like in your example would just make the game convoluted with unnecessary hard counter requirements and turn the system into a glorified game of rock-paper-scissors, removing depth.

#10 xycury

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

View Poststormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

boons are enchantments

And you can then take that example and say conditions are hexes..... so we already have hexing... we're done people, go home!

#11 matsif

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

from a strictly PvE standpoint, I wish they were back.  Hex necro was one of my favorite things in GW1 PvE content, and forcing all hp degen into conditions is boring to me, especially with stack limits on major conditions (bleed, vuln).  That said, for PvP it does create a balance issue as hex break skills would have to be created and its going to focus teams more than they are now as people attempt to bring back hexway or stack hex breaking professions.

As I never play s/tPvP because its just not fun to me like RA was in GW1, I really don't care about it there.  WvW I rarely enter other than getting my 50 kills for the month, so I would get over it there.  PvE it would be nice to add, but by adding it to PvE and not PvP the PvP players are gonna cry.  So Anet should probably work on condition caps and such instead of adding that new aspect to the game.

#12 JACK the Somnolent

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

Obviously this guy never did any PvP as a Monk...

#13 stormofstatic

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

View Postxycury, on 27 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

And you can then take that example and say conditions are hexes..... so we already have hexing... we're done people, go home!

condtions are not the same as hexes in any way shape or form..... hex do somthing differnt than deal dmg directly maybe u cant grasp that idea

#14 xycury

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:33 PM

View Poststormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

condtions are not the same as hexes in any way shape or form..... hex do somthing differnt than deal dmg directly maybe u cant grasp that idea

And neither are boons are enchantments.  You can't have both sides of this cake.

If I can't grasp, you can't fathom.

#15 stormofstatic

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

View Postxycury, on 27 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

And neither are boons are enchantments.  You can't have both sides of this cake.

If I can't grasp, you can't fathom.

boons are enchants in all but name they do the same things condtions do not do the same as hexes

#16 Gilles VI

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostJACK the Somnolent, on 27 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Obviously this guy never did any PvP as a Monk...

Bring veil, no problems except real hex-way teams. :P

I remember the time every HA team needed a 'Expell Hexes' Rt/Me because of the stupidly amount of hexes, that was so lame..

Edited by Gilles VI, 27 December 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#17 Tregarde

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:41 PM

View Poststormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

condtions are not the same as hexes in any way shape or form..... hex do somthing differnt than deal dmg directly maybe u cant grasp that idea

There are Conditions that reduce movement. Conditions that make skills take more time to recharge. Conditions that lower damage and causes endurance to recharge slower... that sure sounds a lot like the kinds of things Hexes did to me.

I loved Hexes in GW1. My favourite way to play my Mesmer there was to hex the hell out of things. Really, Conditions aren't all that different. Just for example - have you really looked at what Confusion does? It causes damage every time an opponent uses a skill. It's like having Empathy and Feedback rolled into one skill!

No complaints here.

#18 Dervo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

Quote

did anet ever say why hexes were not in gw2 ?

I don't know if they ever did or not, but I think I know.  Imagine that each class has 3-5 different hexes, for an average of 4 each.  These are applied to enemies like they were in gw1 (ie. they all stack independently of one another).  They'd probably stack duration if the same hex was applied again.

Now imagine that 100 people are fighting say, Tequatl (any champ/world boss works for this example really).  So they'd be able to stack 32 hexes on the boss, probably for an infinite duration.  Maybe not all the hexes would be beneficial in such a situation, but how would they be balanced if that was the case?  Also, wouldn't there need to be more traits if hexes were added, wouldn't there need to be more runes, sigils, and more skills (not only to apply them, but to remove them).  I guess champs and dragons would get something like another attribute similar to defiance.

But how do you balance all that?  It would be messy, and although quite a few people enjoyed the messy builds that gw1 had, many more were turned off by the "build wars" and would just ask other people for good builds.  Personally, I loved taking a mesmer hero with Fevered Dreams and Fragility (once fragility was aoe) and putting every condition but disease on my parties bar.  But that just wouldn't fly when it's possible to have conditions that last 1-2 seconds and don't stack in duration as the damage from fragility would be extremely high.

Obviously you aren't talking about simply copy pasting hexes from gw1 (or at least I hope you aren't), but my point isn't that hexes couldn't be included in gw2 but that they would take a good deal of time to balance and introduce correctly.  That is something that could have kept gw2 from the public for another year or more.  And frankly, I'm not sure if I'd like to hear someone say in map chat that a certain boss event is up and that they need more of class x, but not to come if you're class y because they already have enough of that class's hexes.  If people were facepalming because one hex from a class was at 3 minutes in duration but another one that wasn't nearly as good was only up half the time because people from that class want to use the best skills... I myself would be facepalming over the combat mechanics.

Edited by Dervo, 04 January 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#19 Krazzar

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostDervo, on 04 January 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Spoiler

Hexes were rolled into conditions so players could distance themselves from the build wars.  With the unified conditions/boons system every player can have a response to effects applied to them. This allows players to play solo with every profession, exponentially increases the number of viable individual and team builds, allows for long-term combat, and shifts the strategy from having the right build to using the right tactics. It's an improvement in every way if you want varied and balanced combat. Hexes just don't fit in GW2 in any way.

Hexes were part of a "rock-paper-scissors" balance system that had to many categories that lead to imbalance. There was all the "normal" categories of combat and then hexes and hex removal were separate, making them easy to remove (one of the first major changes we knew about GW2).

Edited by Krazzar, 06 January 2013 - 06:38 AM.


#20 Serris

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:37 AM

View Poststormofstatic, on 27 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

condtions are not the same as hexes in any way shape or form..... hex do somthing differnt than deal dmg directly maybe u cant grasp that idea

bleed deals direct damage. poison isn't about the damage, it's about the healreduction. vulnerability is increasing the damage they take. weakness is almost the same weakness as in gw1. cripple doesn't deal damage. freeze reduces movement speed and attack speed.
do you actually know any conditions except bleeds?

#21 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

We do not need hexes back, hexway was one of the wors things about playing a monk in GW 1 PvP - I still have nightmares of my veil being stripped...

#22 Gilles VI

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostXunlai Agent, on 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

We do not need hexes back, hexway was one of the wors things about playing a monk in GW 1 PvP - I still have nightmares of my veil being stripped...

Necro with rip enchant, or mesmer with shatter enchant, god so annoying.. :P

#23 RandolfRa

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

I have to say gw2 combat is a little one dimensional. Hexes could spice things up.

Edited by RandolfRa, 07 January 2013 - 11:50 AM.


#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

The good part about (some) hexes is that they force players to take additional decisions. You get slapped by GW1 Spiteful Spirit, suddenly you have to stop spamming things because every action is weighed against the penalty you'll receive. Or you get hit by Diversion and now you have to choose between waiting it out or getting a skill locked.

The problem is that both hexes and hex removal would need to be rare/few/expensive. That would need to make them powerful to motivate spending bar space on them. There would be a macrotiming problem. There aren't enough mechanics to make good hexes (hexes that enforce additional choice) for everything, so other hexes would need to exist - Conjure Phantasm, Barbs and the like comes to mind - and hexes would need to not be very expensive.

This necessitates accessible hex removal, which removes the entire point of having hexes in the first place since in a good team, good hexes would be removed right away if used as intended. Thus the result is that GW1 hexes were either used in huge amounts (hexway), in specific circumstances (MM + Barbs, Rt + Painful Bond, etc.), or inefficiently.

As much as I love the basic idea of hexes as seen in GW1, I cannot support this suggestion unless this problem is solved. One solution might be to let hexes be signet skills with a very long recharge, so that even when they just sit on the bar they are useful.

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

The blandness of GW2's combat stems from the fact that A.Net created boring builds that they force us to play the game with. No amount of new concepts can change that.
What the game needs is a massive rework of most utilities (make them weaker/different with shorter recharges so that they aren't an addition to the build, but rather something you can build your build around) and the removal of the connection between weapons and skills (what good are hexes if you are still forced to spam skill 1).

#26 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 07 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

The good part about (some) hexes is that they force players to take additional decisions. You get slapped by GW1 Spiteful Spirit, suddenly you have to stop spamming things because every action is weighed against the penalty you'll receive. Or you get hit by Diversion and now you have to choose between waiting it out or getting a skill locked.

The problem is that both hexes and hex removal would need to be rare/few/expensive. That would need to make them powerful to motivate spending bar space on them. There would be a macrotiming problem. There aren't enough mechanics to make good hexes (hexes that enforce additional choice) for everything, so other hexes would need to exist - Conjure Phantasm, Barbs and the like comes to mind - and hexes would need to not be very expensive.

This necessitates accessible hex removal, which removes the entire point of having hexes in the first place since in a good team, good hexes would be removed right away if used as intended. Thus the result is that GW1 hexes were either used in huge amounts (hexway), in specific circumstances (MM + Barbs, Rt + Painful Bond, etc.), or inefficiently.

As much as I love the basic idea of hexes as seen in GW1, I cannot support this suggestion unless this problem is solved. One solution might be to let hexes be signet skills with a very long recharge, so that even when they just sit on the bar they are useful.
Totally agree. And the evolution we was expecting. But hey, it's about gw2 buttonspam / autoattack we are talking about rofl.. :P

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 07 January 2013 - 03:00 PM.





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