Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* - - - - 3 votes

An idea


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#1 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

Let's take combat and general mechanics of GW 2(dodges, self heals, ...) and something to it. I think, and I can see that is general consensus, that GW 2 is too bland. Meh prototype, what can you do...

Anyhow, let's add trinity Back. But not in the Sense-YOU ARE HEALER/YOU CAN'T DPS or TANK. No, no and no. Keep innovations of GW 2 and let's expand upon them. We have three factors: Damage(D), Armour(A) and Support(S). Let's take some classes-typical ones. Warrior, Ranger, Priest, Mage and Thief.

Warrior:
D-60
A-40
S-0
Ranger:
D-55
A-20
S-25
Priest:
D-10
A-35
S-55
Mage:
D-55
A-10
S-35
Thief:
D-70
A-15
S-15

That could be also further improved on sight. A highly flexible system if you will in which you could design any class easily.

I just created this because I feel that GW2's favouring of DMG DMG DMG is a little bit assinine. So what do you think?

Also, I forgot that not all classes will be able to dodge as efficiently as in GW2. Light Armours will rely on CCs and buffs and pure dmg in order to persevere. Medium Armours will rely on dodges-sth like an Acrobatics focused Thief. You get more dodges and faster Stamina regen. Heavy Armours get increased Defense(raw), but can't dodge as easily. Halved number of dodges AND Stamina regen. Use that Armour Soldier :D!

Edited by Gorwe, 27 December 2012 - 07:06 PM.


#2 Gilles VI

Gilles VI

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 3271 posts
  • Location:Belgium
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[ICE]
  • Server:Far Shiverpeaks

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:05 PM

This would add the trinity back in, just in another form.

I don't want to be limited to bersker warrior, i also like support shout warrior.
Or I don't always want to be forced in support guardian, sometimes I enjoy the magic steamrolling knight role.

But I would like some changes to professions, so more professions get more roles they can excel at.

Edited by Gilles VI, 27 December 2012 - 07:05 PM.


#3 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

Yes I know.

But we need to step Back and look at the big picture. Why is Trinity bad? Any Real Reasons or just Cuz it's popular to hate popular things?

With further improvements(all classes have self heals, dodge rolling, perhaps even Henchmen), I think that the Trinity could be awesome. This GW 2 method is just broken, but it is a prototype so meh. GW 2's changes seem to me Like the changes that have been made Cuz of changes, not because they were necessary.

Same old WoW trinity is not an option, but so isn't GW 2's weird system.

Keep in mind, you can have choices and all can be rad, but you can't stop people being sheep. If you Like DPS Guardian/Paladin-fine. But you can't change the fact that 95% of people will play it as Tank/Support hybrid.

#4 Dasryn

Dasryn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Location:USA (GMT -5)
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[Myth]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

are you jacking my thread bro?

http://www.guildwars...nd-the-trinity/

#5 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

But we need to step Back and look at the big picture. Why is Trinity bad? Any Real Reasons or just Cuz it's popular to hate popular things?

Do you honestly not know?

Have you ever played an MMO before?

Here, a lesson in why the trinity sucks, in three lines:

LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ

#6 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostNalano, on 27 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:



Do you honestly not know?

Have you ever played an MMO before?

Here, a lesson in why the trinity sucks, in three lines:

LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ

That's not the trinity that sucks. That's an example of PEOPLE sucking. See? Sheep just want to be Lead around. In my system you'd have at least one of the following: Magic Tank, Magic DPS, Magic Support, Physical Support, Physical DPS, Physical Tank, Armoured DPS, Armoured Tank and an Armoured Support. Which would be the best is not known, but what is known is that the sheep or "LF1M TANK!!!" people would flock around it.

#7 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

That's not the trinity that sucks. That's an example of PEOPLE sucking. See? Sheep just want to be Lead around. In my system you'd have at least one of the following: Magic Tank, Magic DPS, Magic Support, Physical Support, Physical DPS, Physical Tank, Armoured DPS, Armoured Tank and an Armoured Support. Which would be the best is not known, but what is known is that the sheep or "LF1M TANK!!!" people would flock around it.

So you really haven't played an MMO before. Let me break it down for you:

Tanks burn out.

Healers burn out.

The entire group is dependent on tanks and healers being on the ball all the time. You can get away with lackluster DPS, but you always need competent tanks and healers, and tanking and healing are largely thankless tasks - both in not being able to see epeen-enlarging big numbers and in having to suffer the rudeness of other players: If DPS dies? Eh, screw that guy. If the tank dies? Everybody dies.

Since tanks are so more important than their compatriots, competent tanking is in very high demand, leading good tanks to end up tanking full-time due to the absolute necessity for having them around in games that revolve around the holy trinity. If they're hybrid classes, now they're not. If this is not their preferred playstyle, they eventually quit. If this is their preferred playstyle, they burn out anyway because everything revolves around them.

This should have been patently obvious for anybody who has ever run a dungeon in any MMO in the last ten years, because you will always fill up the DPS slots nigh-instantaneously, and then end up waiting forever for a tank - longer if you want a competent one.

It's not just PuGs, either. The most important player in the raid guild is the main tank. If  he leaves, you're screwed. You're all screwed. DPS can be replaced at the drop of a hat: Not so for tanks. And since he has to have a perfect attendance rating, guess who's going to burn out first?

Edited by Nalano, 27 December 2012 - 08:09 PM.


#8 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:11 PM

So it's a problem of design?

What if you could change your Role on the fly? You know, Rift style?

#9 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

So it's a problem of design?

What if you could change your Role on the fly? You know, Rift style?

If you can tank, you will be made to tank.

#10 ZombieKing

ZombieKing

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

So it's a problem of design?

What if you could change your Role on the fly? You know, Rift style?
Its a ppl problem, no one wants the responsibility.  That's why there 99 dps for every 1 tank or healer. If the tank dies its the healers fault and they get the blame, if the healer dies the tank sucks at keeping aggro, hence no one wants that headache. Everyone wants to be a mindless dps.

Also there's no agro in this game so they have to introduce that whole system in,

Edited by ZombieKing, 27 December 2012 - 08:26 PM.


#11 lmaonade

lmaonade

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1121 posts
  • Location:That one place with the thing
  • Guild Tag:[NGE]
  • Server:Crystal Desert

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

why does warrior have 0 support? :( shout and banner support is decent!

#12 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostZombieKing, on 27 December 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:


Its a ppl problem, no one wants the responsibility.  That's why there 99 dps for every 1 tank or healer. If the tank dies its the healers fault and they get the blame, if the healer dies the tank sucks at keeping aggro, hence no one wants that headache. Everyone wants to be a mindless dps.

Also there's no agro in this game so they have to introduce that whole system in,

This! To the T!

To the above poster: I wasn't referring to GW2 Warriors, but to the big huge mc large Warriors in general. You know-all brawns no brains?

#13 JasmineMcCoy

JasmineMcCoy

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 173 posts
  • Guild Tag:[Oota]
  • Server:Piken Square

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostZombieKing, on 27 December 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

If the tank dies its the healers fault and they get the blame, if the healer dies the tank sucks at keeping aggro, hence no one wants that headache.

You forgot: if a dps gets aggro it's tank's fault since a dps can never ever stop dealing damage, not for a few seconds needed for a powerful aggro increasing debuff to run out, not for an instant which the tank needs to get aggro again if it resets, never. If a dps dies it's healers' fault, a dps can't afford to waste time getting out of aoe let alone take a few steps back when the boss is performing a close range 90%hp hit.

#14 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:54 PM

Further: let's discuss why the most people think the following: PvE=Dungeons/Raids? Why not open Worlds? Why not adventures of TES style? Why is it Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon?

That line of thinking only damages games. It does not make them better. Limits the freedom too much(At least I think so).

#15 ZombieKing

ZombieKing

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:03 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Further: let's discuss why the most people think the following: PvE=Dungeons/Raids? Why not open Worlds? Why not adventures of TES style? Why is it Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon?

That line of thinking only damages games. It does not make them better. Limits the freedom too much(At least I think so).
as in why are alot of pve content is instanced? or why its restricted to additional dungeons and raids vs them making world wide events?

#16 Nalano

Nalano

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 235 posts
  • Location:NY f'n C
  • Guild Tag:[JQQ]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:04 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Further: let's discuss why the most people think the following: PvE=Dungeons/Raids? Why not open Worlds? Why not adventures of TES style? Why is it Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon?

That line of thinking only damages games. It does not make them better. Limits the freedom too much(At least I think so).

Because people moan and whine and complain when mobs that aren't pushovers are encountered in the "world," right before they moan and whine and complain when they have to murder thousands of mobs that are pushovers out in the world to get anything half-decent.

Conversely, because when there are difficult yet rewarding mobs encountered in the world, they're zerged down without so much as a thought.

#17 Faowri

Faowri

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1154 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

Still think something like FFXIII's paradigm system, where you switch roles on the fly depending on the combat situation, would work really nicely in an MMO environment. There are elements of it there in GW2 but with builds having the permanence they do, it's restricted to weapon/element/toolkit swapping at best.

#18 ZombieKing

ZombieKing

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

View PostFaowri, on 27 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Still think something like FFXIII's paradigm system, where you switch roles on the fly depending on the combat situation, would work really nicely in an MMO environment. There are elements of it there in GW2 but with builds having the permanence they do, it's restricted to weapon/element/toolkit swapping at best.
i thought this too at one point, "if ppl had the option of switching roles then there be alot more healers and tanks". Rift came along and prove that concept to be wrong, its not a game that limits ppl. its ppl. again to my previous statesmet, no one wants that headache. i really don't know whats the middle ground.

Edited by ZombieKing, 27 December 2012 - 09:21 PM.


#19 Gorwe

Gorwe

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 480 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:25 PM

Yeah! Completely forgot about Paradigm shifting! That would rock...

@Zombie:

Yes. I am dazed with stupidity of devs(and players to some extent) these days. They go and spend upwards to 100 mil of $ on "the world" and then they make it useless by either focusing game on PvP battlezones or PvE dungeons. I mean geez! Can't you be a little more creative? Like OPvP(I dislike it, but it IS leaps and bounds ahead of Battlegrounds) or epic stories or some kind of PvE zone control(achieved by Quests/crafting/even exploring)? Maybe even link PvE with PvP(Luxon-Kurzick border in GW)? Be more creative...

#20 MisterJaguar25

MisterJaguar25

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 160 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:29 PM

View PostNalano, on 27 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Do you honestly not know?

Have you ever played an MMO before?

Here, a lesson in why the trinity sucks, in three lines:

LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ
LF1M TANK PLZ

This, it's bad because barely anyone ever wants to tank or heal, so DPS almost always have to wait long as hell time to find a group for anything requiring a tank and or a healer, and healers are annoying as hell in pvp.

#21 LIVESTRONGG

LIVESTRONGG

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 794 posts
  • Location:Florida
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:36 PM

No, this is the game they wanted and designed, they aren't going to change it.

They didn't try to hide it and fool the people that bought it, if you knew what this game was going it and didn't like the concept to begin with, don't come here and try to change it because you don't like it. Don't play it.

This whole thing will cause more separation of the community.

#22 MisterJaguar25

MisterJaguar25

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 160 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostGorwe, on 27 December 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Further: let's discuss why the most people think the following: PvE=Dungeons/Raids? Why not open Worlds? Why not adventures of TES style? Why is it Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon Dungeon?

That line of thinking only damages games. It does not make them better. Limits the freedom too much(At least I think so).

I think it's because PVE content in MMO's like rift or wow that involve solo questing in the open world is typically seen as a boring grind to get to max level, so they don't even consider it content. Why? Because of how those games are designed, combat wise and quest wise, enemies are weak as hell pushovers who have little to no chance of defeating you, and the quests are repetitive as hell. WoW removed the sense of becoming more powerful in relation to enemies your own level by getting rid of the talent points that increase your stats, which makes you feel like you're never getting more powerful till the max level gear grind begins, which also adds to the dullness. GW2 is the first MMO where I see solo questing content as PVE content, due to the combat design, lack of repetitiveness, and traits that increase your power.

#23 indure

indure

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 583 posts

Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:47 PM

Truth of the matter is that I do not want to play a pure role any more. I don't want to have to chose a single play style and be force to group with players I don't even like so that I can complete content. I don't want an entire 40 man raid to fail because one player died. I don't like having multiple skill trees, yet only one build. If I wanted to play that, there are a ton of other MMO's offering it. I whole heartly embrace the concept of hybrids and if it's not working then adapt the content not the concept.

#24 Arewn

Arewn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1068 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

Its not just an LFG problem, the trinity system is a tired and old one that many people are frankly bored of. And bored for good reason, the trinity certainly helps in creating organized content and is fun in it's own right, but the roles can easily become dull with such a narrow focus of thing to do.

The funnest times I've had in WoW were times when my group of friends abandoned the trinity, 2 dps healers with a melee dps quasi-tank, or three tank who's builds are focused on self healing alongside 2 dps. Not only can the trinity get boring, but there's just plain other ways to do it that some people prefer.
GW2's semi-new system certainly needs work, but that's because it's kinda new and needs to be developed and iterated upon. However that iteration does not mean going back to the holy trinity.

Edited by Arewn, 27 December 2012 - 10:52 PM.


#25 Dasryn

Dasryn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Location:USA (GMT -5)
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[Myth]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

the funny thing about this game that ive noticed is that you wont have a problem with LF1M TANK!!

you knwo why?

because tanks in this game are in over abundance.  EVERYONE has an alt guardian built with Power Toughness and Vitality.

DPS is so dime a dozen in this game its not even special, that on top of the fact that you cant gauge dmg at all in this game so DPS got pushed to the back seat

the new rock star in town is who can survive the longest. aka - TANK TOUGHNESS TANK TANK TANK HEAVY ARMOR WEARER.

so no, i do not agree with lack of trinity because al lyou would see is 'LF1M TANK'

such a bandwagon lame argument.

#26 Plutonsvea

Plutonsvea

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • Curse Premium
  • 270 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

It's bad enough finding a regular group for any dungeon.
Adding this to it would just make it worse. As said above...

LF1M TANK PLZ
.. later on..
NO, YOU LOOK NOOB BAD BUILD NO BYE.

Edited by Plutonsvea, 28 December 2012 - 10:00 AM.


#27 blindude

blindude

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1142 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:32 AM

View PostRickter, on 27 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

the funny thing about this game that ive noticed is that you wont have a problem with LF1M TANK!!

you knwo why?

because tanks in this game are in over abundance.  EVERYONE has an alt guardian built with Power Toughness and Vitality.

DPS is so dime a dozen in this game its not even special, that on top of the fact that you cant gauge dmg at all in this game so DPS got pushed to the back seat

the new rock star in town is who can survive the longest. aka - TANK TOUGHNESS TANK TANK TANK HEAVY ARMOR WEARER.

so no, i do not agree with lack of trinity because al lyou would see is 'LF1M TANK'

such a bandwagon lame argument.
btw do you remember yourself being worried and posting here about the boredom of gw2's dps dps dps all the time  ?? :P

To OP :noo...NO
Why would you want to take away my fun playing hybrids.I dont want to play healer or tank or dps.I wanna be able to choose a little bit of everything and maybe specialise in a role when the need has rised..Gw2 does this excellent.Maybe you should try finding an other game before thinking of destroying the whole core of the game and ..my fun..

#28 DuskWolf

DuskWolf

    Seraph Guardian

  • Banned
  • 1876 posts

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostNalano, on 27 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Tanks burn out in keyspam games.

Healers burn out in keyspam games.
I had to fix that for you. TERA uses a similar system of ground targeting and tab target avoidance, but it does it better. You can still do single target heal spells, but you have to aim them with a reticle. Healing in TERA is, quite frankly, the most fun I've had in an MMO for a long, long time. And that surprises me, to be honest. I've got two sleeper hits on my hands right now; Free Realms, which I was lead into by a lady friend, which is a completely open-ended system and the closest thing I've played to Ultima Online, and TERA because they somehow actually made being a healer fun. It's a fun role.

There are a number of reasons why it's fun. Just like it's fun being a tank in TERA. A tank there is a lancer, and standing still as you would in traditional MMOs and spamming your keys will have you laid out on the floor, the lancer is actually an avoidance and kiting tank. And it's a brilliantly realised concept. It actually reminds me of dodge tanks in Champions Online, but done properly as a focused tanking system. Helping to keep a lancer on his feet as a priest is actually really enjoyable. It is because you're not just staring at bars.

The problem with healing and tanking isn't healing and tanking, it's keyspam. I didn't realise or understand this before TERA, which is why that was so enlightening for me. And you won't understand this either until you've tried it. It has a free trial up until level 28 right now, so there's no excuse not to at least give it a go. Try playing a priest, get into a few groups and see how healing works. Or try being a lancer, and watch how different tanking is.

TERA's taught me that the trinity isn't explicitly wrong. In fact, it can be fun. What I've learned from the experience is that far, far too many MMOs are based around monotonously slow combat, with deterministic dice rolls, and key spam. Oh the never-ending keyspam of it all. I doubt you're even going to humour me and see for yourself, but that's your choice.

GW2 convinced me of the idea that the trinity could be dumped. The result was a never-ending mindless zerg of keyspam. That depressed me so much that I dropped GW2 within a week and went back to other games, games like Mass Effect 3, where you didn't have to grind or keyspam in order to be amazing. I needed to play that just to get the anger out of my system, anger at the promise of something new, that just turned out to be more broken and more mindless than anything else before it.

So yes, I agree to an extent. WoW tanks and healers are bad, they're bad because of keyspam. Keyspam defines WoW. But keyspam zerging defines GW2, too. But if TERA is the way forward, I can be happy with the trinity. Dodge tanks and tactical healers, both requiring skill, is an awesome thing to have.

(And if I'm honest, the guardian is no different than a paladin tank in WoW. It's just based around survivability and keyspam. The dodge tanks in TERA are way more fun to play. But you still see 'LF1MGUARDIAN' in map chat. So... keyspam-laden guardian or lancer? Hm. Lancer, pls. It's not even something you have to think about.)

Edited by DuskWolf, 28 December 2012 - 10:37 AM.


#29 duncanmix

duncanmix

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 90 posts
  • Guild Tag:[PA]
  • Server:Gunnar’s Hold

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:47 AM

I think anet made like best way of how classes work. I cant imagine better honestly. Just to give you an example of my friend ranger. At first she used condition trap build. Focus was obviously good aoe dmg while providing decent support with pets. Later on she changed to berserk for more pure power while relying on dodging to survive. After that she was experimenting with some supporting builds with spirits, and lately she is playing full support ranger with aoe regen fields, and with 2 bears tanking a lot for us. She still dish out decent dmg on top of that. Its so nice that one class can do so many roles in pve and all have some good points to it.

Also I felt this with my warrior since I play warrior mostly in pve. I changed several builds from ultra tanky 30 to toughness, to full berserk whacking machine, and now I play more of a balanced role with knight set and shout heals. Not to mention switching weapon set can change your role a lot. U can go axe shield + rifle safety build or change to gs for pure dpsing, or even go hammer + mace for stuns and locks.

I really love how anet removed trinity because honestly u have so much more options. And every class having their heal is like one of the best thing that happened to this game.

#30 Fenice_86

Fenice_86

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 590 posts
  • Location:Italy
  • Guild Tag:[SYG]
  • Server:Whiteside Ridge

Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:50 AM

1 good thing could be reduce the differences between the 3 "weights" (heavy medium light) in PvE...
Since everyone can do everything why should i pick the lowest HP/Armor class for example??




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users