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#31 blindude

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 28 December 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

1 good thing could be reduce the differences between the 3 "weights" (heavy medium light) in PvE...
Since everyone can do everything why should i pick the lowest HP/Armor class for example??
hmm take ele for example..It has the lowest health and armor.Also has d/d which is a melee weapon set.So you got a squishy caster in melee range..blasphemy!!!
Tell that to the ele roamers that play with the zerg in wvw..
Seriously though i believe the idea is to balance the roles by making up for the lowest health/armor classes in utility /healing and boons :)

Edited by blindude, 28 December 2012 - 11:02 AM.


#32 Fenice_86

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:11 AM

View Postblindude, on 28 December 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

hmm take ele for example..It has the lowest health and armor.Also has d/d which is a melee weapon set.So you got a squishy caster in melee range..blasphemy!!!
Tell that to the ele roamers that play with the zerg in wvw..
Seriously though i believe the idea is to balance the roles by making up for the lowest health/armor classes in utility /healing and boons :)

Lulz i was one of those eles (i've quitted after the 15.11.12 patch basically) atm classes like ele can be out performed in each "kind of gameplay" by other classes, there's always one being "better_with_less_effort" in any given role... (assuming same skill lvl of the player behind the keyboard)
Reducing the HP/armor gap between Soldiers Adventurers and Scholars could help a bit or, like you said, leave those stats like they are now and buff skills to those classes who are naturally inferior in basic stats by default!

Edited by Fenice_86, 28 December 2012 - 11:12 AM.


#33 Sheepski

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:27 AM

View PostNalano, on 27 December 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Because people moan and whine and complain when mobs that aren't pushovers are encountered in the "world," right before they moan and whine and complain when they have to murder thousands of mobs that are pushovers out in the world to get anything half-decent.

Conversely, because when there are difficult yet rewarding mobs encountered in the world, they're zerged down without so much as a thought.

Well they could introduce something similar to Aion had.

For example, similar to the event chains that unlock access to the dungeons, instead they give you a key or something to unlock a (for the want of a better word) cave somewhere in a zone. Inside the cave is the boss, which drops a specific chest when killed.

This way normal players just exploring or whatever won't come across this boss randomly and not be able to do the other content.

Everyone who participates in the end event gets the key, so it's not some ridiculous grind or rare etc, but it would require x amount of people (20/30/40 whatever) co-ordinated and preferably a guild (same as most raids).

They could even have a chain of these bosses, where the first event/cave/boss chain is in one zone, then when you kill that one you get a key to open the next one, or to start the next event chain. Put them in mid-level zones to populate them more, but bosses at level 80.

This could give guilds long term content to work towards, and yet anyone else in the area the chance to join in randomly (upto the main group ofc).

Naturally the rewards would be cosmetic (skins, mini's, tonics or w/e).


PS: Ofc they would have to ensure that 1) the event chain can't/won't bug, and the chest gives good loot, not the usual crap you get. Haha wow that turned into a long reply! :D

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#34 blindude

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

View PostFenice_86, on 28 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Lulz i was one of those eles (i've quitted after the 15.11.12 patch basically) atm classes like ele can be out performed in each "kind of gameplay" by other classes, there's always one being "better_with_less_effort" in any given role... (assuming same skill lvl of the player behind the keyboard)
Reducing the HP/armor gap between Soldiers Adventurers and Scholars could help a bit or, like you said, leave those stats like they are now and buff skills to those classes who are naturally inferior in basic stats by default!
actually i think you should come back cause ele is considered very strong both in wvw /pve dungeons(like always) and spvp/tpvp!The being better with less effort argument was true when the game was new and just released.Being efficient with harder classes is not rocket science and its actually worth it you like the class(or something "op" awaits you in the end :P)
Imo they have done a pretty good job with teh classes..not perfect but at the very least acceptable

#35 Fenice_86

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

View Postblindude, on 28 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

actually i think you should come back cause ele is considered very strong both in wvw /pve dungeons(like always) and spvp/tpvp!The being better with less effort argument was true when the game was new and just released.Being efficient with harder classes is not rocket science and its actually worth it you like the class(or something "op" awaits you in the end :P)
Imo they have done a pretty good job with teh classes..not perfect but at the very least acceptable

i dont know... i tried a couple of dungeons with my friends... i was doing 75% of their dmg, had the half their HP, providing the same amount of support... maybe i was too used to Evasive Arcana, maybe i'm too noob (i dont think so ofc :P i was Rank 6 + GWAMM in GW1 not exceptional nor bad)... i was just not having fun anymore after that nerf... being useless...
Well but let's dont go off topic, the point i was stating is that, in the current meta, there are way more "Soldier classes" than the other 2 types... there must be a reason isnt it? ^_^

#36 Gileas898

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

View PostFenice_86, on 28 December 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

i dont know... i tried a couple of dungeons with my friends... i was doing 75% of their dmg, had the half their HP, providing the same amount of support... maybe i was too used to Evasive Arcana, maybe i'm too noob (i dont think so ofc :P i was Rank 6 + GWAMM in GW1 not exceptional nor bad)... i was just not having fun anymore after that nerf... being useless...
Well but let's dont go off topic, the point i was stating is that, in the current meta, there are way more "Soldier classes" than the other 2 types... there must be a reason isnt it? ^_^

Because there is no way to have a visual impact on your team unless you are dealing damage. A shout warrior healing his team for 4k every 20 seconds will still see that healing be taken away by one attack from any dungeon mob. A guardian using party wide aegis will still only do so maybe twice every minute. Not enough to make even a dent in the amount of attacks enemy mobs push out. An ele using his big heal will still only heal his team for 2 seconds before the field is gone, and then has to wait for like 20-30sec to use it again.

In short: GW2 combat is boring because you will never make a noticeable impact on your team whatever build you run. If you can't, well then you won't do it, because it just isn't fun. Because supporting is rarely fun in this game, you see most people run glass cannon instead because, well, bashing someone's face in and seeing big numbers is always fun.

This is why a lot of pugs are so shit compared to guild teams. In a guild team you know what the other people are running. The two guardians and the water ele in your group may be fine with supporting because they know they are keeping the two GC warriors up, making the run super duper quick. When you are joining a pug however, if you happen to be the only support you can't make that noticeable difference and with sub-par damage you will simply feel like a liability to the team.

Compare this to a monk using protective spirit, a mesmer using Panic or a necro using SS, or maybe an ele using an array of earth skills. The monk can prevent millions of damage throughout the run. The mesmer can completely shut down a group of 20 enemies, the necro can completely obliterate a group of that size, and the ele can become basically unstoppable. All of these skills made a noticeable difference.

GW1 didn't require these skills to complete casual content. However, if you wanted to do UW or DoA or FoW you needed a well thought out team composition to do so. GW2 will never be able to have the same amount of planning go into team builds etc, because the only way GW2 devs can create difficulty is by creating enemy abilities that forces players to dodge. Look at Lupicus, Subject Alpha and Kholer. Widely acclaimed as some of the best bosses in this game. What do they all have in common? They force the player to use dodge wisely. The same can be applied to FotM. The only requirement to progressing is being able to dodge all the agony. Is it fun on Kholer, Lupic and Alpha? Yep. Will it be fun in 3 years if all their end-game content consists of learning when to dodge? Nope.

This is why GW2 must make step towards having a trinity if it hopes to keep any long-term players. They still have a ton of casuals playing who are leveling characters, exploring maps, sniffing flowers in Queensdale etc. But when these people leave, all they will have left is the hardcore players. The hardcore players value skill-dependant encounters and difficult dungeons, but I truly believe that Arena Net with their current system simply cannot make any challenging content. They already have the basics of a trinity system lined out. Every profession can with a little tweaking do all roles of the trinity, they just need to make it a lot more rewarding to delve deep into your supportive, damage or defensive traits.

Edited by Gileas898, 28 December 2012 - 12:12 PM.


#37 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:03 PM

Nah trinity already exists here. Trinity isn't a class system, its a team strategy. Its just that the combat in this game, doesn't need strategy for the majority of it. For all things non tPvP, combat=dodge red rings to win. In tPvP, the classes are fairly spread out between standard trinity roles with the exception of the guardian who has a clear advantage in that it is essentially all three roles combined in one class with no downsides. Every other class just doesn't compare in the guardians ability to diversify its roles and help the entire team.


The only interesting idea you have is

Quote

Also, I forgot that not all classes will be able to dodge as efficiently as in GW2. Light Armours will rely on CCs and buffs and pure dmg in order to persevere. Medium Armours will rely on dodges-sth like an Acrobatics focused Thief. You get more dodges and faster Stamina regen. Heavy Armours get increased Defense(raw), but can't dodge as easily. Halved number of dodges AND Stamina regen. Use that Armour Soldier :D!


It would be interesting to see these sort of variants applied to the current classes. As in giving light armor more mobility or giving heavy armor a shorter dodge distance. Etc However those ideas should of been toyed with during beta. Keeping the base mechanics the same is probably for the better here. They just need to open up the roles that each class can effectively use to the level of the guardian.

#38 Tregarde

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

If I wanted a return to the traditional Trinity, I'd be playing another game.

I'm playing Guild Wars 2 instead.




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