446 replies to this topic

[Treble]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

The thing is GW2 was one of the few nominees that can have multiple playstyles.
Most other games only have limited gameplay so you can't really compare them on anything, only on opinions.

It's limited by genre, though, so that's not a very good argument.

Because, while GW2 has different playstyles in the MMORPG genre, Far Cry 3 has different playstyles in the FPS genre, and ME3 has different playstyles in the 3rd person RPG genre, etc.

GW2, while offering many playstyles, tends to favor some playstyles over others. This can be said for any other MMO, including WoW. that's the whole point of MMO's -- actually, RPG's in general -- because their whole purpose is to appeal to the broadest audience possible.

You can't just pigeonhole games based on your playstyle. I don't find XCOM to be very appealing to my kind of gaming, but I'm not gonna sit here and say it's objectively not as good as the ones I enjoy, because that would be completely incorrect.

Regardless, I haven't even seen GW2 win any GOTY awards yet. XCOM seems to be dominating the media awards, with Far Cry 3 and Mass Effect 3 pulling wins in a couple magazines.

[kidawk]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

The thing is GW2 was one of the few nominees that can have multiple playstyles.
Most other games only have limited gameplay so you can't really compare them on anything, only on opinions.



That's the thing she doesn't understand..



True, but I believe it's very hard to implement in a DE.
Doesn't make much sense if we "kill" zhaitan, and 3 hours later he's back for the next players.
So it must be an instance (instances have their spot on the timeline), only (for now) way I see it working is if they keep the 5-man parties, but make 2-5 parties enter the instance at the same time. (maybe even scale on amount of parties?)

Lol, I wish they would make it a world encounter type DE and then face them again for a final showdown as apart of a raid instance.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm glad you asked.
A sub fee would put GW2 on a different track of revenue.
Rather than having KMMO-style grinds that are bound to the Mystic Forge - an uninteresting gear-factory - and without a tightly-constrained Market where the only people who make money are those who made it early (due to how the tax works), the game would feel less like a jew-playground, and more like a game.

If the game's income were focused on its sub and not on pressuring consistant players to convert gems to gold, it wouldn't have to worry about giving you a fitting reward for completing a more difficult dynamic event.

The entire game would improve if it weren't nickel-and-diming the players. Maybe the encounter design would still suck; but I'm hoping on this or next month's "Huge update" to maybe fix that. We'll see.
Even with the bad encounter designs, ANet could have a solid MMO on their hands if they didn't have to worry about wringing change out of the players' pockets.

Spoiler

As an aside, I've got to agree with Raspberry - people who praise GW2 as a hallmark of game design are the sort who tell you they like excrement more than chocolate icecream. They're entirely entitled to their opinion - but they prove that some opinions are just *ing WRONG.

Lol
I guess you don't understand the concept of the mystic forge?
And I still make lots of money, on TP and doing lots of stuff besides that?

And again, how is Anet 'forcing' people to buy gems with gold..?
With the gem price rising, empirically we would have to say less and less people buy gems

And thing is, lots of people are not saying GW2 has the best design EVAAR..
We say we're quite happy with how it is, and that it even deserves GOTY, compared with those other nominated games.
We say (even though we know there is room for improvement) we find it a pretty good game and we still like to play.
Big difference.

kidawk, on 08 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Lol, I wish they would make it a world encounter type DE and then face them again for a final showdown as apart of a raid instance.

And again, how would it be to see the "epic boss" you kill after a long and hard campaign to respawn 3h after you've slain him?
It makes no sense..
This is simply one of the parts where an MMO can't fulfill what some players want.

[Doctor Overlord]

raspberry jam, on 08 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Not really. They are supposed to exploit it. Being a *ing peasant for 6000 game hours is not fun.

Won't a game filled with unbalanced exploits be even less fun?   It might be appealing to the percentage of players who enjoy the feeling of cheating the system and using exploits but it will also drive away those players who do not.   And pushing away the players detracts from the sense of a massive online game.

Edited by unraveled, 08 January 2013 - 08:16 PM.
Removed reply to deleted content.

[Soki]

kidawk, on 08 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Well, I and other players are not just pushing this change with Zhaitan but all future big story element content as well. Fighting Jormag after defeating the 'Claw of Jormag' in a 5man instance just doesn't make a lot of sense...

One could also say the same for Tequatl and the story mode dragon.

They are on the right path with agony resistance imo. I just hope they pursue it further.

There are also already some raid like DEs; for example, the Temple of Dwyana in Malchor's Leap. That event takes about 3+ groups to complete and requires a little more coordination than just random AoE with MF gear on.

I would much rather have a 10-player instance dedicated to fighting a dragon; which is tightly-tuned and has good encounter design; and pushes players to be in gear that compliments their role, with Magic Find gear disallowed (or obliterated from the game entirely) - rather than a no-challenge world event with 50 people spamming 1 in a haze of particle effects and random-seeming down-states due to the horrible processor optimization GW2 has.

But that's just me - a player craving PvE challenge who was sorely disappointed by ANet's slapdash casual-catering job.

[Gilles VI]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Regardless, I haven't even seen GW2 win any GOTY awards yet. XCOM seems to be dominating the media awards, with Far Cry 3 and Mass Effect 3 pulling wins in a couple magazines.

This whole thread was started just because GW2 won GOTY.
I'm just gonna stop.
My arguments are simple:

• The game in its total is better than any of the other games (note I did play some of the other nominees)
  
• GW2 has made a bigger impact on its genre than any of the other nominees did on their own genres.

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

But that's just me - a player craving PvE challenge who was sorely disappointed by ANet's slapdash casual-catering job.

May I just ask, how is there ever any challenge in PvE?
I have yet to find a single game (except chess simulator) that has truly difficult PvE content..

[Treble]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

This whole thread was started just because GW2 won GOTY.
I'm just gonna stop.
My arguments are simple:

• The game in its total is better than any of the other games (note I did play some of the other nominees)
  
• GW2 has made a bigger impact on its genre than any of the other nominees did on their own genres.

There are a lot of GOTY awards. Which one did GW2 win, in particular? Spike TV's? PC Gamer's? GameSpot's? Etc.

Your first argument is completely subjective.

Your second argument is completely wrong.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[jonasklk]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

The problem I see with most people who defend GW2 is that they praise the game based only on their playstyle and preferences. That's fine when discussing personal enjoyment, but when it comes to discussing something as broad as GOTY, it kinda defeats the purpose.

Having an amazing story dosen't sound very broad to me. You think so?

I agree there has been some good games this year story wise but when compared to the amount of work that has been put into GW2, they lack fresh gameplay.

I don't think GW2 is the greatest thing ever, in fact i believe they can improve on lots of things. But i think people are really not looking at how massive of a game GW2 in fact is.

[Soki]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Lol
I guess you don't understand the concept of the mystic forge?
And I still make lots of money, on TP and doing lots of stuff besides that?

And again, how is Anet 'forcing' people to buy gems with gold..?
With the gem price rising, empirically we would have to say less and less people buy gems

And thing is, lots of people are not saying GW2 has the best design EVAAR..
We say we're quite happy with how it is, and that it even deserves GOTY, compared with those other nominated games.
We say (even though we know there is room for improvement) we find it a pretty good game and we still like to play.
Big difference.



And again, how would it be to see the "epic boss" you kill after a long and hard campaign to respawn 3h after you've slain him?
It makes no sense..
This is simply one of the parts where an MMO can't fulfill what some players want.

You're obviously the type of person I mentioned in my spoiler ^^
You accept the most mediocre that mediocrity has to offer. You say "No it's just fine!" even though it's getting into the range of objectively broken, as far as games go.
You don't recognize pressure on the average player to grind or buy gems and convert to gold. You don't see that, at large, people do -not- like GW2.
You don't think grinding for exorbitant amounts of trade-goods, in order to throw them all into the Mystic Forge, to get a "prestige" equipment is bad design.

I'm personally sitting on 30,000 gems, which I bought when they were dirt-cheap. I sunk all my gold into them in the first month, predicting what would happen to them as more and more people are pushed to support the grind and nickel-and-diming on the TP. I think that means I "win", at what GW2 is, at the moment. And you know what?
That is absolute shit.

I truly need to say nothing more than the above. GW2 would be better off as a sub-fee MMO, to avoid things like the focus on the Mystic Forge and the tightness of the TP. If you don't agree, you're ignoring clear evidence.

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

This whole thread was started just because GW2 won GOTY.
I'm just gonna stop.
My arguments are simple:

• The game in its total is better than any of the other games (note I did play some of the other nominees)
  
• GW2 has made a bigger impact on its genre than any of the other nominees did on their own genres.

May I just ask, how is there ever any challenge in PvE?
I have yet to find a single game (except chess simulator) that has truly difficult PvE content..

WoW raid encounters are tightly tuned, and demand the best performance from every player in a 10 or 25-player setting.
In GW2, me and my friends have cleared a Lv. 20 fractal run without any trait points allotted.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Treble]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

WoW raid encounters are tightly tuned, and demand the best performance from every player in a 10 or 25-player setting.
In GW2, me and my friends have cleared a Lv. 20 fractal run without any trait points allotted.

I find the people who say that PVE is easy have never actually raided a true hard mode encounter before. They certainly wouldn't be saying that if they've ever tried pre-nerf M'uru, pre-nerf Kael'thas, or <10% 25H LK.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[Soki]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I find the people who say that PVE is easy have never actually raided a true hard mode encounter before. They certainly wouldn't be saying that if they've ever tried pre-nerf M'uru, pre-nerf Kael'thas, or <10% 25H LK.

M'uru was BS, but yeah, agreed.
Gladiator for 3 arena seasons in a row was less challenging than raids, for me.

Edited by unraveled, 08 January 2013 - 08:24 PM.
Removed reply to deleted content.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

-snip-

You're obviously the same type as Raspberry, thinking you're supreme and all.
Guess what, games and entertainment in general are very subjective.

I happen to like a game that:

• Doesn't force me to grind PvE to do PvP.
  
• Doesn't force me to join a huge unpersonal guild just so I can do some content.
  
• Doesn't force me to spend times and times travelling.
  
• Doesn't force me to grind hours and hours in raids just so I can go to next raid.
  
• Doesn't force me to do the same stupid quest over and over.
  
• ....

Does this make the best game ever? Not by far, and yet you and some other keep thinking that is what I mean..

And how exactly is the game pushing people to buy gems and converse them when you can get max stats/whatever you want within few hours of gameplay?
And you didn't answer the question, if Anet would be pushing people to buy gems, the price would get lower and lower, while in reality it is rising and rising.
Numbers don't lie..

Keep your hidden insults to yourself.

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

There are a lot of GOTY awards. Which one did GW2 win, in particular? Spike TV's? PC Gamer's? GameSpot's? Etc.

Your first argument is completely subjective.

Your second argument is completely wrong.

Agree but GOTY is based on subjectivism..

And why is second wrong?
I don't see people saying, oh yes next singleplayer RPG should have this or that from FC3, or Dishonored.
They're good games, Dishonored is even way better than the much more popular AC3, but they didn't change anything in their respective genres, they just execute the standards in their genre pretty well.

For me it would be like a very good WoW-clone, a good game, very well executed, nice gameplay and what not, but necessary special.

[Soki]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

You're obviously the same type as Raspberry, thinking you're supreme and all.
Guess what, games and entertainment in general are very subjective.

I happen to like a game that:

• Doesn't force me to grind PvE to do PvP.
  
• Doesn't force me to join a huge unpersonal guild just so I can do some content.
  
• Doesn't force me to spend times and times travelling.
  
• Doesn't force me to grind hours and hours in raids just so I can go to next raid.
  
• Doesn't force me to do the same stupid quest over and over.
  
• ....

Does this make the best game ever? Not by far, and yet you and some other keep thinking that is what I mean..

And how exactly is the game pushing people to buy gems and converse them when you can get max stats/whatever you want within few hours of gameplay?
And you didn't answer the question, if Anet would be pushing people to buy gems, the price would get lower and lower, while in reality it is rising and rising.
Numbers don't lie..

Keep your hidden insults to yourself.

The gem-gold conversion price is rising and rising because of the recent string of holidays (it hasn't recovered since Halloween), the sales, and the addition of character-redesigns to the BLTC. Not because of any lack of players buying gems to convert to gold. Don't make the fallacy I think you're making - that's bottom-rung silliness.


I suppose I'm glad that people have the freedom to like something without full justification.

A brick couldn't breech your skull - much less the words of superior judges of quality than yourself.
I will agree to disagree, with you - and will hope that this exchange will help you form a more well-backed opinion, at a later time.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[XPhiler]

raspberry jam, on 08 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

But you didn't compare it to a F1 car. An F1 car is custom built by some of the most skilled car engineers in the world. They are absolutely top of the line, as good as you can possibly make a car while still abiding by the rather strict F1 rules.

ANet didn't have a set of "MMO rules" that said that they had to make a boring grindfest of a game. They could have done anything, but they didn't.

That it comes close to a single-player RPG is beside the point... If you want to recommend something to fans of single player RPGs you should make something that compares to the fun of games like Skyrim or Dark Souls.

Thing is you're missing that in making a MMO you do have rules you have to abide by. Rules such as that you cant allow player A to play the whole storyline and prevent player B+ from doing anything because it was already finished by player A. That means sacrifcing some immersion. You either give Quest A to every single player just like as if no other player has ever done it even though they all did. That also means that Quest A cant really change anything because other players need to find the same set pieces to interact with. Or you do what Gw2 did. Quest A isnt tied to a player, it something that happens in the open world, anyone who takes part gets rewarded with its completition. That obviously means that Quest A needs to keep repeating because new players need to do take part in it as well. A single player RPG is a whole different category it doesnt have to tackle this difficulty because once the player is finished with Quest A no one needs to do Quest A again. so Quest A can destroy the entire planet it resides on if it wants it will not effect anyone negatively.

Arenanet made a boring grindfest in your personal opinion. In my opinion they did exactly the opposite. In most other MMOs you get one single path you can travel. Its a journey from level 1 to max level. If you're luckly doing every single quest will get you there. In most cases doing every single quest is not enough, you'll need to grind mobs, doing repeating quests to make up the difference. Once you finish a level of content anything under that becomes absolute. If I am level 50 and I go play in a level 5 zone I will get absolutely nothing. No money, no XP, no Enjoyment because I just one shot everything. At max level there is only one thing to do, repeat the same instances over and over again in the hopes of getting better gear. Thats it. If I want this gear I need to grind this instance, Its either that or there is well nothing to do because all other content is now absolute. Alternative I do have one option, start an alt and do exactly 100% the same stuff again. Only difference I get is If I choose a new class it might play a little differently.

In a Single player game its different. The game isnt trying to keep me playing indefinitely like an MMO is, so having just 50 - 100 hours of content is enough. Once I get to max level thats it in most games. I can start an Alt and try an alternative storyline if the RPG has branching storylines or can continue developing my character playing somewhat like a single player MMO so to speak.

Gw2 does a bit of both. At its core its an MMO and wants players to play indefinitely but it provides a lot more content then it is required to reach max level. Like many single player games old content doesnt become irellevant and to get the gear I desire I am not tied up playing the same instance. In fact I can play pretty much anything I want including level 5 content and still get closer to aquiring whatever gear I want. Like a single RPG with branching storylines I can create a few alts and experiancing a completley different story (except for a few storyline missions) each time. Classes also play pretty different to each other.

If you cant see the differences between these 3 I honestly dont know how to explain it better to you. But just like it is absurd to compare a F1 car with a satellite so is comparing MMO directly to a single player RPG. Not just that, but just like a F1 car is still a state of the art work of marvel even though its 1000s of times slower then the satellite so the limitations the genre pushes upon MMOs due to their nature doesnt make them very bad like you suggest. Ultimately Single player RPGs are more immersive, no doubt. But compared to an MMO they have it easy. Yes you heard that right, they have it easy. A single Player RPG doesnt have to be designed to handle changes from 1000s of players. A single player RPG doesnt have to "simplify" the combat system to handle sharing the combat data with 1000s of players at the same time without introducing lag. A single player RPG doesnt need to have 100s of hours of content to keep players occupied.

Simply speaking most MMOs are not tab targeted skill activation based simply because its the best the developer can do combat wise. They are like that cause all the data the server needs to send between the client and the server is the mob ID and the skill used. The server simply needs to send back the update position and the damage done. If it lags? no problem the mob might jitter but still get hit. MMOs like Gw2 have that done in a much more complex way. If you shoot an arrow it might hit a bird wondering between me and my target so the server now has to do a lot more work then simply calculating the damage to my target the moment I fire off my attack. The server needs to calculate the whole trajctory of the projectile. It has to do collision detection for every step of the way with everything close enough that might eventually intersect. This has to be done for every player and every npc all the time.  Lag is also an issue. People will not enjoy the game very much if a projectile misses their target because it killed a bird that due to lag never appeared to intersect with the projecitle on their client even though it did server side. Single Player RPG have no such issue so its easier for them to do more action oriented combat. Well this is just one example plenty of other things that single player RPG have it easier.

So with that in mind cant you appricate that here we have an MMO and as such has so much more technical challenges to over come than single player RPGs to provide a similar experiance and yet they did a lot of design choices that overcame some of the  previous limitation and came up with a system that while still not yet perfect came pretty close to provide an experiance thats close to that of a single player RPG? Not just that but did it all in a very pretty package that has amazing art direction and attention to detail? Ohh I think they definitely deserved GOTY.

As for recommending the game to lovers of single player RPGs, yes  I think its pretty logical that if you're going to recommend a game thats from a different genre you'll try to find the one that comes closest to the fans of the genre you're recommending to and in my opinion Gw2 is indeed the MMO that comes closest to the single RPG genre. Will it be good enough ? for some perhaps most definitely not for everyone. Likewise some people enjoy MMOs more then they enjoy RPGs. Gw2 already sold more then kingdoms of amalour sold. Perhaps even more then Witcher 2 sold. WoW and LoL have both had more then 12m players each thats more then skyrim sold. Different people have different tastes and some players like both whats wrong with that?

[kidawk]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Lol
I guess you don't understand the concept of the mystic forge?
And I still make lots of money, on TP and doing lots of stuff besides that?

And again, how is Anet 'forcing' people to buy gems with gold..?
With the gem price rising, empirically we would have to say less and less people buy gems

And thing is, lots of people are not saying GW2 has the best design EVAAR..
We say we're quite happy with how it is, and that it even deserves GOTY, compared with those other nominated games.
We say (even though we know there is room for improvement) we find it a pretty good game and we still like to play.
Big difference.



And again, how would it be to see the "epic boss" you kill after a long and hard campaign to respawn 3h after you've slain him?
It makes no sense..
This is simply one of the parts where an MMO can't fulfill what some players want.

Well in the world DE, the boss would just retreat into their lair/base/headquarters and that is where you would fight them. Similar to confronting the Lich King in WoW.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

The gem-gold conversion price is rising and rising because of the recent string of holidays (it hasn't recovered since Halloween), the sales, and the addition of character-redesigns to the BLTC. Not because of any lack of players buying gems to convert to gold. Don't make the fallacy I think you're making - that's bottom-rung silliness.


I suppose I'm glad that people have the freedom to like something without full justification.

A brick couldn't breech your skull - much less the words of superior judges of quality than yourself.
I will agree to disagree, with you - and will hope that this exchange will help you form a more well-backed opinion, at a later time.

• With hollidays more people would buy gems cause they would see it as a gift, so supply would rise?
  
• If gold would be so scarce and if the evil Anet would really make players so poor to push them to the gem-shop, wouldn't alot of people don't buy gems with gold.
  Thus the gem-price wouldn't rise because there is no demand?

Extremely funny you consider yourself superior if you can't even grasp the idea different people have different tastes, and you can't understand not everyone thinks black/white like you.

And you still do not comprehend this sentence:
"Does this make the best game ever? Not by far, and yet you and some others keep thinking that is what I mean.."

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 January 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[Treble]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Agree but GOTY is based on subjectivism..

And why is second wrong?
I don't see people saying, oh yes next singleplayer RPG should have this or that from FC3, or Dishonored.
They're good games, Dishonored is even way better than the much more popular AC3, but they didn't change anything in their respective genres, they just execute the standards in their genre pretty well.

For me it would be like a very good WoW-clone, a good game, very well executed, nice gameplay and what not, but necessary special.

To say they didn't do anything for their genre is a little much. You can't seriously be denying the impact of Far Cry to the FPS genre, or Mass Effect to the 3rd person shooter genre, can you?

In a world of extremely linear FPS that you can beat in 3 hours, there's Far Cry 3. The only other game like it is Fallout, and they're as different from each other as GW2 is to WoW.

And no one can argue against Mass Effect's impact on 3rd-person shooters, and even its impact in RPG's.

What has GW2 done? Mass PVP? DAoC. Arena PVP? WoW. Dynamic events? RIFT. GW2 put them together into one game, but that's no more or less innovative than those other games. They've all been pretty evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Tightly tuned as in people use macros for it?
Yes sounds very fun to me.

/sarcasm

You'd get kicked out of any good endgame raid guild if you tried to macro your rotations, because it would be painfully obvious and you'd do way less damage/healing than everyone else who does it the normal way.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Gilles VI]

kidawk, on 08 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Well in the world DE, the boss would just retreat into their lair/base/headquarters and that is where you would fight them. Similar to confronting the Lich King in WoW.

That sounds pretty good tbh.

[Soki]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

• With hollidays more people would buy gems cause they would see it as a gift.
  
• If gold would be so scarce and if the evil Anet would really make players so poor to push them to the gem-shop, wouldn't alot of people don't buy gems with gold.
  Thus the gem-price would'nt rise because there is no demand?

Quite the leap in logic you're making, to assume a lot of people buy gems to -gift- to people; rather than because there's holiday-specific things on the BLTC.
Sure, some people bought gems to gift - but that's where your leap in logic falls flat on its face. Some - not at all the majority.

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Tightly tuned as in people use macros for it?
Yes sounds very fun to me.

/sarcasm

Someone thinking they're so very much in the right; and just delivered a perfect "gotcha";
while being so far off the mark.

Edited by Feathermoore, 08 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[XPhiler]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm glad you asked.
A sub fee would put GW2 on a different track of revenue.
Rather than having KMMO-style grinds that are bound to the Mystic Forge - an uninteresting gear-factory - and without a tightly-constrained Market where the only people who make money are those who made it early (due to how the tax works), the game would feel less like a jew-playground, and more like a game.

If the game's income were focused on its sub and not on pressuring consistant players to convert gems to gold, it wouldn't have to worry about giving you a fitting reward for completing a more difficult dynamic event.

The entire game would improve if it weren't nickel-and-diming the players. Maybe the encounter design would still suck; but I'm hoping on this or next month's "Huge update" to maybe fix that. We'll see.
Even with the bad encounter designs, ANet could have a solid MMO on their hands if they didn't have to worry about wringing change out of the players' pockets.

Spoiler

As an aside, I've got to agree with Raspberry - people who praise GW2 as a hallmark of game design are the sort who tell you they like excrement more than chocolate icecream. They're entirely entitled to their opinion - but they prove that some opinions are just *ing WRONG.

One problem there, you're assuming the whole reason gold isnt easier to aquire is because of a consperacy to have people convert gems to gold. It might also be to tackle inflation and thats a good thing. Take games like Everquest 2 and EvE online. Both these games sell subscription for ingame money which is why I chose them. In Everquest 2 1 month sub ergo about $15  costs 400 platinum. For a max level character thats not a big problem you can find dungeons that you can solo that give you 35platinum per run. But what about a low level character? I think it took me a month to make 50g but because high level characters earn so much more 50g is nothing.

Same with EvE online. costs about 480m to buy 1 month sub. A player who has been playing the game for quite some time and provided he is part of good corp its not a lot. A good wormhole run might net you 60m But what about new characters? I still remember even though its been so so long ago where making 1m seemed impossible. I still remember when I had to pay a rent of 60m a week and that was very though. In both of these games unless your character is at least a year old you will not be able to easily afford the price other players demand for these objects because well high level characters can make a ton of money while low level characters cannot.

How about Gw2? $14 worth of gems is what 1200 gems and thats what 24g ? is it impossible for a new player to make 24g? takes some work sure but impossible? nope. one single lucky drop like say the abyss dye can get nearly there at one go, no such luck in the other games.

People think that not making tons of money is bad in an MMO, I think its actually a good thing has many advantages to it as well.

[Gilles VI]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

To say they didn't do anything for their genre is a little much. You can't seriously be denying the impact of Far Cry to the FPS genre, or Mass Effect to the 3rd person shooter genre, can you?

In a world of extremely linear FPS that you can beat in 3 hours, there's Far Cry 3. The only other game like it is Fallout, and they're as different from each other as GW2 is to WoW.

And no one can argue against Mass Effect's impact on 3rd-person shooters, and even its impact in RPG's.

What has GW2 done? Mass PVP? DAoC. Arena PVP? WoW. Dynamic events? RIFT. GW2 put them together into one game, but that's no more or less innovative than those other games. They've all been pretty evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.


You'd get kicked out of any good endgame raid guild if you tried to macro your rotations, because it would be painfully obvious and you'd do way less damage/healing than everyone else who does it the normal way.

• No trinity (admitted they still need to balance lots of things)
  
• DE's as a primary levelling system, and not something that happens every now and then and that is rather annoying than fun.
  
• Total separate PvP, which is also pretty balanced.
  
• Social gameplay, different factors here.

They set a new standard in the genre, just look at tes:o, the next big thing, look at those first dev interviews, and watch how their biggest selling points are pretty much copied from GW2.

FC3 and Dishonored didn't do anything like that, Dishonored is an extremely well stealth game with a good storyline, but nothing more.
It was developped within the already existing frame and excelled in it.
FC3 did the same.

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Quite the leap in logic you're making, to assume a lot of people buy gems to -gift- to people; rather than because there's holiday-specific things on the BLTC.
Sure, some people bought gems to gift - but that's where your leap in logic falls flat on its face. Some - not at all the majority.

If people bought gems for the BLTC or not would have no influence on our dispute in any form, because those people would spend their gems on those items, thus removing them.
And yes I suppose more people buy gems at hollidays to sell them.

• Because they see it as a gift.
  
  
• Because every thinking human knows prices would rise then.

Edited by Feathermoore, 08 January 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Soki]

typographie, on 08 January 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

You fixed it once, so why not grab the other while you're at it? And heck, why not spare us the sarcastic response this time, since you're probably in murky territory with the mods with comments like those.

It would've done better on you if you had PM'd me what you posted.
Now, you just seems self-righteous and easily offended.
I'm responding via quote so that fact is clear.
I will edit my post to keep the same exact context, but without the offending word.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[jirayasan]

There are no missing promises or any problems with grind.

[Soki]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

• No trinity (admitted they still need to balance lots of things)
  
• DE's as a primary levelling system, and not something that happens every now and then and that is rather annoying than fun.
  
• Total separate PvP, which is also pretty balanced.
  
• Social gameplay, different factors here.

They set a new standard in the genre, just look at tes:o, the next big thing, look at those first dev interviews, and watch how their biggest selling points are pretty much copied from GW2.

FC3 and Dishonored didn't do anything like that, Dishonored is an extremely well stealth game with a good storyline, but nothing more.
It was developped within the already existing frame and excelled in it.
FC3 did the same.



If people bought gems for the BLTC or not would have no influence on our dispute in any form, because those people would spend their gems on those items, thus removing them.
And yes I suppose more people buy gems at hollidays to sell them.

• Because they see it as a gift.
  
  
• Because every thinking human knows prices would rise then.

I'm really curious?
btw why don't you respond to the other part of my post?

Around the holiday time, there are 2 things that jump.
1)Purchases of gems; and
2)Gem-to-gold conversion prices
1 is explained by the exclusives and sales, during holidays.
2 is explained by the remainder of those gems being converted to gold; since you can only purchase in denominations of $10 with redeemable gift-cards and credit card.

I thought that was implied.



Oh, so you're -curious- now? Not /sarcastic?
You're just wrong. There's no other way to say it. If you think WoW raids are not challenging to the individual as well as the group, you are wrong.
No amount of backpedaling will excuse the stupidity from that one post of yours - not because you were wrong; but because of the denseness in which you asserted that you were right.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Treble]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

• No trinity (admitted they still need to balance lots of things)
  
• DE's as a primary levelling system, and not something that happens every now and then and that is rather annoying than fun.
  
• Total separate PvP, which is also pretty balanced.
  
• Social gameplay, different factors here.

They set a new standard in the genre, just look at tes:o, the next big thing, look at those first dev interviews, and watch how their biggest selling points are pretty much copied from GW2.

FC3 and Dishonored didn't do anything like that, Dishonored is an extremely well stealth game with a good storyline, but nothing more.
It was developped within the already existing frame and excelled in it.
FC3 did the same.

It's painfully obvious how biased your responses are.

You write off Dishonored and Far Cry as simple iterations of stealth FPS and open world FPS, then you praise GW2 for being a simple iteration of MMORPG's.

Fact of the matter is that Far Cry and Dishonored improved on already-existing aspects of their genres, adding their own brand to it.

GW2 does the exact same thing. ArenaNet didn't invent any of those things you listed, they just improved on already-existing features from other games. In fact, I'm pretty skeptical to call certain things, like the lack of a trinity or WvW being so impersonal, an "improvement".

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[XPhiler]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

What has GW2 done? Mass PVP? DAoC. Arena PVP? WoW. Dynamic events? RIFT. GW2 put them together into one game, but that's no more or less innovative than those other games. They've all been pretty evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.


You'd get kicked out of any good endgame raid guild if you tried to macro your rotations, because it would be painfully obvious and you'd do way less damage/healing than everyone else who does it the normal way.

What has [insert your favorite formula 1 team here] done to the F1 sport? early F1 car models still moved, steered and breaked.  Yes and No. Rift had Dynamic Events sure but there scope and implementation where no where close to what Gw2 has. Not saying Rift is a bad game, its good and I played it for a few months but for sure my reaction to experiancing Gw2 DE was not ohh this was already done in Rift, not even close. Furthermore Gw2 has its entire PvE system (hearts are just markers really) centred around it no other MMO dared to even try that including Rift.

Dont have much experiance to comment on the other two you mentioned. But I would add that a game is the sum of all its parts. You had to quote 3 different games and you still didnt cover all that Gw2 does. You'd need to pick another game that has real exploration, which not just rewards you but you can find hidden content / events that without looking for it you'd most likely miss and never experiance. You'd need to pick an MMO that has jumping puzzles. Another that has action based combat. Another that has good underwater content. Yet another MMO that releases so much free content. and Another MMO thats designed with so much convinance (such as sending collectables to the bank from everywhere) yet here you have all that in one package. isnt that in itself worth of GOTY?

[Gilles VI]

jirayasan, on 08 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

There are no missing promises or any problems with grind.

This is exactly my opinion.
Max stat gear is easy to get, within hours at max lvl, or when you save a bit of money, directly after you get max level.
We'll see how they handle ascended gear.

People only need to grind if they want prestige skins.

Is it any different than in other MMO's?
Except those prestige skins are tied to better stats in other MMO's lol.

[Soki]

jirayasan, on 08 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

There are no missing promises or any problems with grind.

>Guesting
>Dyes based on the account; not character
>Queueing with friends/teammates in PvP

There's nothing inherrently wrong with a grind, when it's done well - but all the game is is a grind. There is no challenge to be had - every piece of prestige gear is achieved by sinking time into doing the same thing for a long amount of time.
There -is- a problem in that.

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

This is exactly my opinion.
Max stat gear is easy to get, within hours at max lvl, or when you save a bit of money, directly after you get max level.
We'll see how they handle ascended gear.

People only need to grind if they want prestige skins.

Is it any different than in other MMO's?
Except those prestige skins are tied to better stats in other MMO's lol.

Yes, it is.
In other MMOs, prestige armor is gained by doing something unique - something challenging, whether to your group or just you, the individual.
In GW2, you get prestige gear by farming. Literally just farming. Grinding, grinding, grinding.
That's it. That is, quite literally, it.

Rather than the Mystic Forge spitting out an item that you can bring to a certain part of the world, or a certain NPC, to start a chain of instanced or world DEs that, on completion, award you with a piece of equipment, or the next part in the chain for that piece of equipment...
They tell you to gather a ridiculous amount of materials, toss it in, and pop on your equip that may as well have been bought with gold coins.


Some overly-vocal people say that's better.
Most people say it's boring and that they'd rather pay Blizzard for a sub-par expansion than play GW2.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Treble]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

-snip-

Read my post above yours.

I said GW2 is evolutionary for its genre, as with the other games I mentioned. But some people apparently think it's some sort of revolutionary masterpiece, which it is not.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Around the holiday time, there are 2 things that jump.
1)Purchases of gems; and
2)Gem-to-gold conversion prices
1 is explained by the exclusives and sales, during holidays.
2 is explained by the remainder of those gems being converted to gold; since you can only purchase in denominations of $10 with redeemable gift-cards and credit card.

I thought that was implied.

Exactly.
Thus we can conlude extra gems are entering right?
And those gems are being sold?
So with your logic (which says evil Anet makes gold so scarce) not many people would buy gems, because they're already poor!
So in this situation price would actually drop right? If S rises and D remains even that is only logical..

Now second situation is more realistic, again people buy more gems and sell them, so S rises.
But we can also say D rises a bit, because some of the rich people want some stuff from BLTC.
Howmuch those two respectively are we cannot say.
But again, when using your logic where evil Anet makes gold so hard to get) it wouldn't be many.
So prices would stay even or rise a little.

Both situations don't fit the reality.
So only thing I can say is: some of our conclusions are not right.

Soki, on 08 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

>Guesting
>Dyes based on the account; not character
>Queueing with friends/teammates in PvP

There's nothing inherrently wrong with a grind, when it's done well - but all the game is is a grind. There is no challenge to be had - every piece of prestige gear is achieved by sinking time into doing the same thing for a long amount of time.
There -is- a problem in that.

Those 3 points I agree with, and would like to see implemented.
And how is the grind in other MMO's any different?
I love how grinding a raid over and over for the set is any different than the exact same thing in GW2.