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End of year GOTY Awards...agree or disagree....


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#331 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I think you need to follow the story a bit more in Gw2. Seems to me like you're underestimating how much story and lore dynamic Event carry together with scout NPCs and many other NPCs in the world. Not to mention hidden areas, hidden NPCs, books and stones with inscriptions on them.
Despite all that, it still doesn't hold a candle to WoW's lore, IMO.

That said, I understand Warcraft's lore has had much longer to develop. But then I consider FFXI to have had a far better story than the GW series.

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

In fact it doesn't have any story, period.
This is completely false. Hell, I'll bet even the major characters' weapons (Doomhammer, Frostmourne, Gorehowl, etc.) have more fleshed out backstories than any GW main character.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 08:07 PM.


#332 Soki

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I disagree with this when compared to WoW.  WoW does not even have a personal storyline.  In fact it doesn't have any story, period.
Both games have a crap storyline.
WoW is a bad comparison, if we're looking at story.
I would argue that WoW's lore is better constructed and more interesting than GW's, though.

Compare storylines of GW and WoW to FFXi. That is a proper comparison to a quality story in an MMO.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM.


#333 Fizzypop

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Admittedly, WoW does better in many aspects that GW2.  But for whatever WoW does better, it has monthly subscription fee.  If WoW didn't have monthly subscription, I would play it.  But it does.  Now, GW2 does some things better than WoW.  But because it has free subscription, it challenges the status quo, like WoW.  Now WoW will have to step up the game, or lose those who can get similar entertaiment at free cost.  This alone is evolution, or revolution, whatever you want to call it.

Eh see that's where I disagree. I do think Gw2 has some great improvements to offer and obviously I felt that way since I bought the game sight unseen. However, the people who enjoy wow? Aren't going to come to gw2. It doesn't offer enough for that player base and changes things that those who play wow enjoy/like. I think looking at it that way is the wrong way to look at it. If money was an issue for those players they wouldn't still be playing wow. Free to play games that copy outright wow's model haven't stolen any of their player base either and believe me there are dozens of them out there. The biggest thing going for wow is that it's easy to access, tons of word of mouth, lots of social features that make parts of the game easier, and of course a lot of content. I think GW2 needs to work on improving it's game and not worrying about what wow does. Wow is not going to be hurting for players. I think they were both built to be very different from each other. It's hard to compare two games which I feel don't have much in common. Of course what do I know about anet's intent? It seems like they aren't too sure either. I do think going buy to play was in Gw2's favor though.

Edited by Fizzypop, 08 January 2013 - 08:12 PM.


#334 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

This is completely false.

Prove it.

#335 Fizzypop

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I think you need to follow the story a bit more in Gw2. Seems to me like you're underestimating how much story and lore dynamic Event carry together with scout NPCs and many other NPCs in the world. Not to mention hidden areas, hidden NPCs, books and stones with inscriptions on them.

Perhaps, but that's the job of the game to guide me to those things. I feel that guiding is really lacking. The personal story doesn't make up for it. I've said before what I find wrong with the personal story. I learn more about gw2 lore outside of the game than inside. I'm coming from the stand point that I don't know a lot of it because I only played the first guild wars campaign. I did parts of nightfall, but never finished. I have read zero of their books.

ETA: Just so people don't think I'm bashing it completely...some zones are really well done. Malchor's leap for example. I think they did a great job explaining the story through the events, but unfortunately I don't feel that way about all of the zones.

Edited by Fizzypop, 08 January 2013 - 08:38 PM.


#336 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Prove it.
Play Warcraft: Orcs and Humans all the way up to Warcraft 3, read the Warcraft books, etc. Shouldn't be too difficult. Like I said:

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Hell, I'll bet even the major characters' weapons (Doomhammer, Frostmourne, Gorehowl, etc.) have more fleshed out backstories than any GW main character.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.


#337 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Play Warcraft: Orcs and Humans all the way up to Warcraft 3, read the Warcraft books, etc. Shouldn't be too difficult. Like I said:

LoL, I'm talking about WoW, not warcraft.  That's just lore.  WoW does not have a storyline within the WoW game.

#338 Soki

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:15 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Prove it.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lore
Don't be thick

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

LoL, I'm talking about WoW, not warcraft.  That's just lore.  WoW does not have a storyline within the WoW game.
There are stories that progress through the entire zone in a linear or branching fashion.
Example:
Spoiler

Not the best storytelling ever by a longshot; but I personally prefer it to GW2's hammed-up missions and god-awful "u r tha chosen wun" Trahern.

Point is: You're being a little contrarian, and that's just adorable, but sometimes it makes you sound ridiculous.

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 08:25 PM.


#339 Fizzypop

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostSoki, on 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Both games have a crap storyline.
WoW is a bad comparison, if we're looking at story.
I would argue that WoW's lore is better constructed and more interesting than GW's, though.

Compare storylines of GW and WoW to FFXi. That is a proper comparison to a quality story in an MMO.
Eh I view stories in mmos like I view romance novels. Fun to read, entertaining, and lets me live out some fantasies, but overall the writing is subpar. Meaning I don't expect a whole lot other than being entertained.  As far as the latter of your comment I agree. Plus I feel like I have to try too hard to learn Gw2 story.

Edited by Fizzypop, 08 January 2013 - 08:19 PM.


#340 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostFizzypop, on 08 January 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Eh see that's where I disagree. I do think Gw2 has some great improvements to offer and obviously I felt that way since I bought the game sight unseen. However, the people who enjoy wow? Aren't going to come to gw2. It doesn't offer enough for that player base and changes things that those who play wow enjoy/like. I think looking at it that way is the wrong way to look at it. If money was an issue for those players they wouldn't still be playing wow. Free to play games that copy outright wow's model haven't stolen any of their player base either and believe me there are dozens of them out there. The biggest thing going for wow is that it's easy to access, tons of word of mouth, lots of social features that make parts of the game easier, and of course a lot of content. I think GW2 needs to work on improving it's game and not worrying about what wow does. Wow is not going to be hurting for players. I think they were both built to be very different from each other. It's hard to compare two games which I feel don't have much in common. Of course what do I know about anet's intent? It seems like they aren't too sure either. I do think going buy to play was in Gw2's favor though.

Yah, WoW players won't come to GW2.  But that's their loss.  But a small company like Arenanet could challenge the behemoth that is Blizzard, as far as which game is better.  GW2 wins, and WoW loses.  That's a big challenge.

View PostSoki, on 08 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:


Erm, yah just lore.  This is not a story within the game, like many people are arguing for in this thread.

#341 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:



LoL, I'm talking about WoW, not warcraft.  That's just lore.  WoW does not have a storyline within the WoW game.
There are plenty that had bigger impacts than anything in GW2. Pamela Redpath, In Dreams, everything leading up to the Battle for Undercity and the Wrathgate, Saurfang, Fallen Hero of the Horde, a few Scholomamce quests, etc.

WoW had a pretty poor medium for storytelling, but the writing is top notch if you didn't skip to accept quests.

#342 Fizzypop

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:27 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Yah, WoW players won't come to GW2.  But that's their loss.  But a small company like Arenanet could challenge the behemoth that is Blizzard, as far as which game is better.  GW2 wins, and WoW loses.  That's a big challenge.

I think we both just look at it from different angles. I don't think they are challenging wow as much as they are challenging the mmo market to do something different. GW2 pulls off something different quite nicely. I just think it needs to go much further and I'm willing to wait for it. That's why no matter how much I dislike certain aspects of gw2 I'm still here. Gw2 has more of a chance to push a different kind of mmo than wow. Wow is all right with their status quo as they should it works for them, but I don't want wow's model. I want something different. I think that's what they are really intending to challenge. If that's get them a larger audience all the better, but I still don't think they'll take wow players with it. They'll bring in NEW players and that's the important. Of course this is all wishful thinking who knows what will actually happen.

#343 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostSoki, on 08 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Lore
Don't be thick

There are stories that progress through the entire zone in a linear or branching fashion.
Example:
Spoiler

Not the best storytelling ever by a longshot; but I personally prefer it to GW2's hammed-up missions and god-awful "u r tha chosen wun" Trahern.

Point is: You're being a little contrarian, and that's just adorable, but sometimes it makes you sound ridiculous.

No you are.  I've played WoW for 5 years.  There is no storyline within the WoW game.  The lore and story are in books outside of the game.

#344 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:30 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:



No you are.  I've played WoW for 5 years.  There is no storyline within the WoW game.  The lore and story are in books outside of the game.
Having a poor medium for storytelling due to the limits of technology at the time does not mean it had no story. Like I said, skipping to the end of quest text does not justify your not being able to find any, because you didn't even try.

#345 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostFizzypop, on 08 January 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I think we both just look at it from different angles. I don't think they are challenging wow as much as they are challenging the mmo market to do something different. GW2 pulls off something different quite nicely. I just think it needs to go much further and I'm willing to wait for it. That's why no matter how much I dislike certain aspects of gw2 I'm still here. Gw2 has more of a chance to push a different kind of mmo than wow. Wow is all right with their status quo as they should it works for them, but I don't want wow's model. I want something different. I think that's what they are really intending to challenge. If that's get them a larger audience all the better, but I still don't think they'll take wow players with it. They'll bring in NEW players and that's the important. Of course this is all wishful thinking who knows what will actually happen.

This is where I agree with you, not disagree.  "GW2 pulls off something different quite nicely."  I don't want WoW's model either.

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Having a poor medium for storytelling due to the limits of technology at the time does not mean it had no story. Like I said, skipping to the end of quest text does not justify your not being able to find any, because you didn't even try.

I do admit, I didn't read the text, but I wasn't playing the game to read a book.

#346 Soki

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

No you are.  I've played WoW for 5 years.  There is no storyline within the WoW game.  The lore and story are in books outside of the game.
You're trying too hard to discredit the game.
I gave you an example. Did you read it?
That entirely constitutes a storyline. The simple fact that I can explain, start to finish, the story in a zone to you means that you're wrong - and you're just being a little contrarian. Stop it. It makes you look duller than you are.

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I do admit, I didn't read the text, but I wasn't playing the game to read a book.
Or maybe it is just as it looks.

Quote

There's no story

Quote

I didn't play to read a book

Edited by Soki, 08 January 2013 - 08:34 PM.


#347 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostSoki, on 08 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

You're trying too hard to discredit the game.
I gave you an example. Did you read it?
That entirely constitutes a storyline. The simple fact that I can explain, start to finish, the story in a zone to you means that you're wrong - and you're just being a little contrarian. Stop it. It makes you look duller than you are.

No, you.  WoW can be played without reading one word, and that's how I played it.  But if I wanted to play a storyline, I could not, because there is no option.  In GW2, I have the option to play the storyline.  So, by your logic, GW2 is superior to WoW in terms of storyline.

#348 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:35 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I do admit, I didn't read the text, but I wasn't playing the game to read a book.
Then you can't say WoW doesn't have a story.

That's like saying FFVI is inferior to FFXIII because it doesn't have cutscenes and you couldn't be arsed to read the dialogues.

#349 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:37 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Then you can't say WoW doesn't have a story.

That's like saying FFVI is inferior to FFXIII because it doesn't have cutscenes and you couldn't be arsed to read the dialogues.

But does WoW makes it engaging for me to read the story?  GW2 goes out of its way to read the story to me, lol.

#350 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:



But does WoW makes it engaging for me to read the story?  GW2 goes out of its way to read the story to me, lol.
I reiterate the limits of technology at the time. WoW's storytelling method was the best for the period it was released, so you can't justifiably compare them. You can definitely say you enjoy GW2's storytelling more, but you can't simply say WoW had no story based on the fact that one read it for you while you couldn't be bothered to read the other.

#351 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I reiterate the limits of technology at the time. WoW's storytelling method was the best for the period it was released, so you can't justifiably compare them. You can definitely say you enjoy GW2's storytelling more, but you can't simply say WoW had no story based on the fact that one read it for you while you couldn't be bothered to read the other.

Limits of technology at the time?  That's BS, I'm sorry to say.  It's 2013.  When did they release Panda land?  They make billions.  That's just an excuse, not technology.

#352 XPhiler

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

View PostSoki, on 08 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I'm sorry to say: All of it together remains with a world and lore that feels shallow and hacksaw'd together.
GW2 was a major failing in the story progression aspect. It had potential that was not delivered by the writers, VA's, and mission designers.

I honestly cant see how you came to that conclusion. I feel that everything is really well designed and designed in such a way to complement the story. Just as soon as you come out of queensdale depending on the status of the aquadot dynamic event chain you might find villagers complaining that they feel sick. Looking around will have you notice there is a green myst coming out from the well in the town and you can see the same myst at the horizon in the distance. On the way there on the bridge you could come across a bandit barricade to prevent people from crossing into the zone the bandits want to take over. Walking further up the hill you can generally see a number of things. Bandits trying to steal the pump station blue prints, bandits trying to blow the pumping station up. bandits trying to poison the water. Going down the hill and beyond the house surrounded by bandits you come to the farm and mill. The farm will sometimes be assaulted by bandits who try to burn it down. The bandits try to take over the mill, not destroy it but take it over. Investigating the basement you find there is a store house down there. Going beyond the valley there is another farm who also comes under raid by bandits and bandits try to take over the lifestock in that case. So far we havent read a single line of text and yet we still can clearly see whats going on. Its that well done. Try to follow the story in mmos like WoW without reading a single line of text. There is no way, you cant. You certainly can here however. If you like reading and interacting with NPCs you get even more lore and detail. NPCs will be happy to explain they've been haressed by bandits none stop. That bandits are trying to drive them away.  If you follow bandits you can catch some of them explaining how their sabotage of the pipe line will result in the crops dieing people dieing of hunger. Some NPCs will even suggest the bandits must have a hide out. Sure enough if you investigate the house in the middle of all this (not really hidden since its also the house where the bandits come running from while assualting the pipeline and mill) you will actually find a huge cave that has a bandit hide out.You will find the leader of the bandits. And this is right out of the gates when you start the game. Stories get better and bigger as you dwell deeper into the game. There are many way to get lore and its definitely not missing. Even simply observing whats going on around you give you story thats a huge strength imho. Everything in Gw2 happens for a reason. Every event has a back story. A story that likely works in tandem with other events sometimes directly other times indirectly.

The main storyline is quite interesting. Didnt investigate it much yet, didnt have much time to play alts but I already noticed how the main storyline branches between different races. In the beta I played a bit the sylvari storyline. In that storyline I meet some NPCs that were hunting an artifact the krait found. There are 2 storyline events that detail what the artifact is and how we got hold of it basically. In the human storyline in later levels I am sent to meet up with one of those 2 npcs I interacted with while doing the sylvari storyline specifically to aquire that artifact to use against ziathan. I love it when story branches this way. I love that story threads get resolved in different play throughs in different storylines. Dont know yet how spread this is but I hope it is cause I am something I am going to hunt down no doubt.

Edit: just to clarify, not saying WoW doesnt have story just because if you dont read text you will not get any story cause I am sure someone will misinterpret me. Actually I am not even saying that WoW has no story. I am not comparing one game against another here. All I am saying that Gw2 has so much in terms of attention to detail that you can follow a story visually by noticing whats around you. No many MMOs if any allow you to do that.

Edited by XPhiler, 08 January 2013 - 08:50 PM.


#353 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:



Limits of technology at the time?  That's BS, I'm sorry to say.  It's 2013.  When did they release Panda land?  They make billions.  That's just an excuse, not technology.
Release in 2012 using an engine built between 2000-2003. I'll let you figure that one out.

Let me know when GW2 runs on a Pentium 4.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 08:51 PM.


#354 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Release in 2012 using an engine built between 2000-2003. I'll let you figure that one out.

So, how did they release flying in WoW classic.  It is possible to introduce it.  It is difficult, but it's possible.  And what do we pay WoW to do?  To make it better for all players, right?  Most players don't even care about the storyline as it exists in game.  That's why they don't do it.  They don't think it's profitable for the time and resource they'll have to put into it.

#355 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

So, how did they release flying in WoW classic.  It is possible to introduce it.  It is difficult, but it's possible.  And what do we pay WoW to do?  To make it better for all players, right?  Most players don't even care about the storyline as it exists in game.  That's why they don't do it.  They don't think it's profitable for the time and resource they'll have to put into it.
They can update the game engine, but you're asking for a complete overhaul. What a silly argument. They've been pushing the limits of that engine for the past 5 years. I mean, this is a game engine that was developed for Warcraft 3. WARCRAFT 3. Flying in an MMO was around almost as long as WoW has. That's not exactly a technological breakthrough.

I really feel like you're simply grasping at straws now.

As far as storytelling? That point in GW2's story where that Nord dude -- the one who's supposed to be your mentor in the Order -- sacrifices himself. I assume that was supposed to be a sad moment. It wasn't. The pacing was horrible. There was barely any time to get to know the guy to even care that he traps himself in with the undead.

That moment where Logan gets left behind and supposedly "dies", I assume was supposed to be sad. When he returns on the airship, I assume that was supposed to make you happy. Didn't do a thing, because Logan isn't a likeable character.

I felt a bigger attachment during the short exchange between Overlord Saurfang and Muradin Bronzebeard right after the Deathbringer Saurfang fight than any point in GW2's story.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 09:06 PM.


#356 Millimidget

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

But does WoW makes it engaging for me to read the story?
Yeah it does, once you've started actually reading into the story/lore on your own, because they did a great job translating story and lore elements to the game world.

I'm dying to see another developer do as good a job with that. Anet made an attempt here, which is saying alot in an era when a story focused game like SWTOR totally fails to translate lore/story elements to the game world beyond the most obvious of things (Sarlacc Pit, for example).

#357 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

They can update the game engine, but you're asking for a complete overhaul. What a silly argument. They've been pushing the limits of that engine for the past 5 years. I mean, this is a game engine that was developed for Warcraft 3. WARCRAFT 3. Flying in an MMO was around almost as long as WoW has. That's not exactly a technological breakthrough.

I really feel like you're simply grasping at straws now.

As far as storytelling? That point in GW2's story where that Nord dude -- the one who's supposed to be your mentor in the Order -- sacrifices himself. I assume that was supposed to be a sad moment. It wasn't. The pacing was horrible. There was barely any time to get to know the guy to even care that he traps himself in with the undead.

That moment where Logan gets left behind and supposedly "dies", I assume was supposed to be sad. When he returns on the airship, I assume that was supposed to make you happy. Didn't do a thing, because Logan isn't a likeable character.

I felt a bigger attachment during the short exchange between Overlord Saurfang and Muradin Bronzebeard right after the Deathbringer Saurfang fight than any point in GW2's story.

What? lol.  i work in in technology.  Give me time and money, and I'll do it.  lol.

#358 XPhiler

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostTreble, on 08 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

They can update the game engine, but you're asking for a complete overhaul. What a silly argument. They've been pushing the limits of that engine for the past 5 years. I mean, this is a game engine that was developed for Warcraft 3. WARCRAFT 3. Flying in an MMO was around almost as long as WoW has. That's not exactly a technological breakthrough.

I really feel like you're simply grasping at straws now.

As far as storytelling? That point in GW2's story where that Nord dude -- the one who's supposed to be your mentor in the Order -- sacrifices himself. I assume that was supposed to be a sad moment. It wasn't. The pacing was horrible. There was barely any time to get to know the guy to even care that he traps himself in with the undead.

That moment where Logan gets left behind and supposedly "dies", I assume was supposed to be sad. When he returns on the airship, I assume that was supposed to make you happy. Didn't do a thing, because Logan isn't a likeable character.

I felt a bigger attachment during the short exchange between Overlord Saurfang and Muradin Bronzebeard right after the Deathbringer Saurfang fight than any point in GW2's story.

To be fair it is possible and other games did it as well. Eve online is one good example, its older then WoW but it has kept its graphical style up to date. Even by todays standard its still one of the best looking Space based game out there.

#359 Treble

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

To be fair it is possible and other games did it as well. Eve online is one good example, its older then WoW but it has kept its graphical style up to date. Even by todays standard its still one of the best looking Space based game out there.
We're not talking simply about graphics. WoW has never been a contender for "Best Graphics" (though I'd say its stylized approach does age way better than any other MMO). Game mechanics are another. Some things like large-scale PVP, I know WoW is completely capable of (and something they've already done very well if you've ever participated in Tarren Mill and Goldshire skirmishes). But I don't expect Blizzard to shell out a bunch of money to add full voice acting and full dynamic quest chains for an expansion, especially not when they're in the middle of developing their next MMO. It's simply not a realistic expectation.

View Postwitteker, on 08 January 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

What? lol.  i work in in technology.  Give me time and money, and I'll do it.  lol.
Seems every conversation devolves into someone making some random claim about them being able to do something so why can't the devs. If it really were that simple, why don't you work for a major game development company? Better yet, why aren't you head of it?

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#360 witteker

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:25 PM

You've softened a little on your stance though.




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