446 replies to this topic

[XPhiler]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

We're not talking simply about graphics. WoW has never been a contender for "Best Graphics" (though I'd say its stylized approach does age way better than any other MMO). Game mechanics are another. Some things like large-scale PVP, I know WoW is completely capable of (and something they've already done very well if you've ever participated in Tarren Mill and Goldshire skirmishes). But I don't expect Blizzard to shell out a bunch of money to add full voice acting and full dynamic quest chains for an expansion, especially not when they're in the middle of developing their next MMO. It's simply not a realistic expectation.


Seems every conversation devolves into someone making some random claim about them being able to do something so why can't the devs. If it really were that simple, why don't you work for a major game development company? Better yet, why aren't you head of it?

Check out their balance sheet. Blizzard spends 200m a year on their entire MMO business. Thats everything including developing any new MMO. I am not sure why you think tis not a realistic expection to expect they overhaul their game considering they make 1.8b off subscriptions a year. Thats not counting box sales  which on their own would still cover their yearly expenditure and leave a healthy profit. I dont know the reason why they wouldnt be able to overhall or expand any features if they truely wanted to.

[Gilles VI]

Fizzypop, on 08 January 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

You are making claims that you can't really back up. Wow's leveling is slow I'll give you that, but you get WAY more story than in Gw2. Tons of it. Hearts and quests are the same and you do both to level up in both games. So I don't know what to tell you there. As far as DEs that's the ONLY improvement gw2 brings to the table for leveling (wow doesn't have them). That's not much when you factor in all the other problems. The leveling experience for me isn't that much different. Many of the DEs aren't that interesting and some of them are impossible because of population imbalance and/or bugged. Which are both problems wow suffered from as well. The social aspect? Lol no. The guild functions in this game are horrible. I find myself never talking to anyone aside from those I already know. There is very little strategy involved in most areas of the game. As i said I don't think it improved upon much. That's just comparing minor aspects of the same. If you compare wow and Gw2 when it comes to side games or instances it doesn't even come close to improving.

You have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about strict comparisons.

For example before WoW levelling was very painfull, grinding same mobs over and over.
WoW changed it, made it "easier", more enjoyable.
Just as what GW2 does now by making levelling a much more broad aspect than just "doing quest"
etc etc

[Hellspawn2323]

Gilles VI, on 27 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Ofcourse there is (much) room for improvement.
But does that take away that it's the first AAA MMO that doesn't forces me to go raid raid raid, or forces me to do PvE before I can start PvP.
Or it has some pretty nice WvW, even though it has its problems.
It's the first MMO that actually encourages people to play together in the open world.
It rewards exploration
....

There are things to deal with, to improve yes.
But the good things are also a massive improvement to the genre.



Yup, just compare WoW: Pandaria trailer to gameplay, LOL..

Oh well I understand the complaints about PvP being a bit lackluster, the WvW issues, zones being dead, no prestiguous items to get (legendaries are just grind grind grind, and dungeon stuff is way to eas to get),...

But I still think it is an awesome game.

I agree with almost everything you said, But the things you meantioned that need too be fixed are just too big of an issue for me to even want me too log on. Plus I hate standing around Lions Arch typing LFG LvL 12 Fracticals for over an hour because theres no hot join system like LFD Tool... I truly 100% believe GW2 could be the best MMO ive ever played but the easy bake oven legendaries and roll your face across the keyboard easymode of dungeons just ruined the game for me.

I got nearly 20 of my friends too buy GW2 some I had too pull thier teeth too try it. They fell in love with GW2 seen all the amazing things you meantioned, but as time went by the seen the gapping holes in the game and tools missing that are needed so they all and i mean ALL left the game. Pretty sad when we as a guild lasted longer in SWTOR which was the worst MMO we ever played then we did in GW2 which has the potential too destroy the King of MMO's.

Im just heart broken about it too be honest, now im just bored struggling too play planetside 2 and looking into possiably getting MOP which makes me scream in pain thinking about doing that but I need a challenge something too smash my head on for weeks too complete not just a few hours, and too be 100% I loved the idea of not having a Tier system in GW2 but after tasting the bitter sweet of capping max gear and being left with that feeling of wanting something better, Ive realised I kind of like the carrot on the stick because its the sweetest tasting carrot youll ever taste but its always just out of your reach.

As you can see im pretty conflicted on the matter and ive come too apprecait things ive once complained about like LFD tool and Gear Grind. Now im not saying GW2 needs those things too be an amazing MMO but for me personally it would bring me back faster then the road runner...

Edited by Hellspawn2323, 08 January 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[Treble]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I am not sure why you think tis not a realistic expection to expect they overhaul their game considering they make 1.8b off subscriptions a year.

Because, for all intents and purposes, WoW has been the bog standard for MMO's. There has literally been no challenge to WoW since its release, and therefore no need to change a winning formula. The genre was so stale that Blizzard literally had to do nothing. GW2's release stirs the pot some, but it's already too late to expect Blizzard to overhaul that engine to compete with GW2. They don't need to. WoW was already hemorrhaging players before GW2 ever came along. Now their focus is on a new title, which is supposed to be Titan. It's not realistic to expect them to further update WoW to the extent that you are implying at this point in time.

[Gilles VI]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Because, for all intents and purposes, WoW has been the bog standard for MMO's. There has literally been no challenge to WoW since its release, and therefore no need to change a winning formula. The genre was so stale that Blizzard literally had to do nothing. GW2's release stirs the pot some, but it's already too late to expect Blizzard to overhaul that engine to compete with GW2. They don't need to. WoW was already hemorrhaging players before GW2 ever came along. Now their focus is on a new title, which is supposed to be Titan. It's not realistic to expect them to further update WoW to the extent that you are implying at this point in time.

Why not?
EvE is a "small" game? And yet those devs keep it running.
And why would players still pay a sub-fee then? If they're not going to update it anymore?

[XPhiler]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Because, for all intents and purposes, WoW has been the bog standard for MMO's. There has literally been no challenge to WoW since its release, and therefore no need to change a winning formula. The genre was so stale that Blizzard literally had to do nothing. GW2's release stirs the pot some, but it's already too late to expect Blizzard to overhaul that engine to compete with GW2. They don't need to. WoW was already hemorrhaging players before GW2 ever came along. Now their focus is on a new title, which is supposed to be Titan. It's not realistic to expect them to further update WoW to the extent that you are implying at this point in time.

Oh yeah I completely agree that they dont really have to do it, players are definitely happy as is. Still its a disgrace in my opinion. I have nothing against subscription, played many subscription based games but you know you expect that perhaps you should get something out of your subscription and in that regard Blizzard have been just too greedy IMHO. Eve gives out updates free of charge. Rift releases a lot of content each month. Even TSW made sure to release content each and every month.  Yet personally I dont feel WoW has ever given anything back, the least they could do is keep their game up to par as technology evolved. but anyhow like you correctly said they didnt really have to do it so they didnt miss out on anything but actually not doing it.

Personally I believe WoW was a one off success. It will help give Titan numbers no doubt but I am skeptic of Titan replacing WoW. We'll see how that evolves.

[witteker]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Why not?
EvE is a "small" game? And yet those devs keep it running.
And why would players still pay a sub-fee then? If they're not going to update it anymore?

Exactly.  Even free games can do it, but WoW can't.  Says a lot about WoW.

[Treble]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Oh yeah I completely agree that they dont really have to do it, players are definitely happy as is. Still its a disgrace in my opinion. I have nothing against subscription, played many subscription based games but you know you expect that perhaps you should get something out of your subscription and in that regard Blizzard have been just too greedy IMHO. Eve gives out updates free of charge. Rift releases a lot of content each month. Even TSW made sure to release content each and every month.  Yet personally I dont feel WoW has ever given anything back, the least they could do is keep their game up to par as technology evolved. but anyhow like you correctly said they didnt really have to do it so they didnt miss out on anything but actually not doing it.

Aye. But business are run differently. Blizzard provided more than enough free updates and content between expansions to keep people busy.

Vanilla had Battlegrounds, Zul'gurub, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'qiraj, Naxx, cross-realm Battlegrounds, world raid bosses, etc.

BC had Black Temple, Zul'Aman, Arenas, Sunwell, and a whole host of in-game lore-related events.

WotLK had Ulduar, Trial of the Crusader, Argent Tournament, Icecrown Citadel, Ruby Sanctum, etc.

It's not like Blizzard released an expansion and just left it as-is with minor balance patches. No, they added new lore-related content and even numerous class and content changes. New content was added an average of one every three months, which is perfectly in line with other MMO's. They didn't need to upgrade things like graphics or the engine because they were adding entertaining content.

I just think some of you have some kind of vendetta against Blizzard and wear rose-tinted glasses when it comes to ANet. ANet isn't any better. They're a business, just like Blizzard, which is why their content tends to fall closer to the cash shop (i.e. you don't -need- to use the cash shop, but it puts you at an advantage if you do use it).

Anyway, this is a crazy tangent we've gone through. The original point of this was that WoW does, indeed, have a very compelling story. That's inarguable, especially since the only argument against it is that "I couldn't be bothered to read it."

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[XPhiler]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Aye. But business are run differently. Blizzard provided more than enough free updates and content between expansions to keep people busy.

Vanilla had Battlegrounds, Zul'gurub, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'qiraj, Naxx, cross-realm Battlegrounds, world raid bosses, etc.

BC had Black Temple, Zul'Aman, Arenas, Sunwell, and a whole host of in-game lore-related events.

WotLK had Ulduar, Trial of the Crusader, Argent Tournament, Icecrown Citadel, Ruby Sanctum, etc.

It's not like Blizzard released an expansion and just left it as-is with minor balance patches. No, they added new lore-related content and even numerous class and content changes. New content was added an average of one every three months, which is perfectly in line with other MMO's. They didn't need to upgrade things like graphics or the engine because they were adding entertaining content.

I just think some of you have some kind of vendetta against Blizzard and wear rose-tinted glasses when it comes to ANet. ANet isn't any better. They're a business, just like Blizzard, which is why their content tends to fall closer to the cash shop (i.e. you don't -need- to use the cash shop, but it puts you at an advantage if you do use it).

Are you sure we're the ones wearing rose tinted glasses ? Arenanet doesnt charge a subscription and yet has released a lot of content every single month and has been since its release. WoW on the other hand charges a subscription and seems to be release an average of 3 updates per expansion. Unless I am mistaken and please correct me if I am wrong (got this data off the patch notes on the official site) in cataclysm they released 3 updates. 4.1 in april 2011. 4.2 in june but has only fixes as far as I can tell.  4.3 in november. So new content was released twice in april and novemeber then nothing until the patch for pandaria.

I hope I am missing something, I truely do but I if i am reading this right 4.1 brought 2 dungeons and 4.3 brought 1 dungeon. There were features added to each patch so not saying these dungeons are the only content added.  Anyhow according to youtube its 3 dungeons that take less then 2 hours each to complete. (actually the 2nd dungeon in 4.1 can be completed in less then 30 mins) and the first instance seems to use the same map as an older instance and has just the encounters changed) Unless I missed something Gw2 has already released more content in its first few months than WoW release during all of that year (excluding cataclysm itself of course)

Again not commenting about the quality of WoW, they do have more players and thus is defintiely a more successful game, not debating that. Likewise if thats all that was released Anet is different in that they do release more content and all for free.

[Fizzypop]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

You have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm not talking about strict comparisons.

For example before WoW levelling was very painfull, grinding same mobs over and over.
WoW changed it, made it "easier", more enjoyable.
Just as what GW2 does now by making levelling a much more broad aspect than just "doing quest"
etc etc

I see your point a bit clearer now, but not sure that I really agree with it. I'm guessing its the point of view that's the issue.

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Why not?
EvE is a "small" game? And yet those devs keep it running.
And why would players still pay a sub-fee then? If they're not going to update it anymore?

It's not even true. Wow still is updating regularly and has been adding functionality to their game. I'm guessing Treble is talking more about structure their structure isn't going to change at all (at least I think correct me if I'm wrong there). The same could be said for Gw2. I mean once you build a game to play one way you aren't going to make massive changes to it. It's easier to start a new game which is why GW2 even came around. However as far as adding new content and functionality to the game...they are still very much doing that.

[Treble]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Are you sure we're the ones wearing rose tinted glasses ? Arenanet doesnt charge a subscription and yet has released a lot of content every single month and has been since its release. WoW on the other hand charges a subscription and seems to be release an average of 3 updates per expansion. Unless I am mistaken and please correct me if I am wrong (got this data off the patch notes on the official site) in cataclysm they released 3 updates. 4.1 in april 2011. 4.2 in june but has only fixes as far as I can tell.  4.3 in november. So new content was released twice in april and novemeber then nothing until the patch for pandaria.

I hope I am missing something, I truely do but I if i am reading this right 4.1 brought 2 dungeons and 4.3 brought 1 dungeon. There were features added to each patch so not saying these dungeons are the only content added.  Anyhow according to youtube its 3 dungeons that take less then 2 hours each to complete. (actually the 2nd dungeon in 4.1 can be completed in less then 30 mins) and the first instance seems to use the same map as an older instance and has just the encounters changed) Unless I missed something Gw2 has already released more content in its first few months than WoW release during all of that year (excluding cataclysm itself of course)

Again not commenting about the quality of WoW, they do have more players and thus is defintiely a more successful game, not debating that. Likewise if thats all that was released Anet is different in that they do release more content and all for free.

I wouldn't know anything past WotLK. I stopped playing then, because I feel that's when Blizzard stopped even trying (Deathwing as a final boss should've been a dead giveaway). But before I quit, Blizzard was releasing content long before even 5% of the population could complete the existing ones. Hell, it took most people more than 3 months just to get past Professor Putricide.

Aside from that, you're comparing two different business models and using that as a meter for game quality. I don't think I need to tell you how silly that is. Consider the fact that Blizzard's business model was the norm when WoW was released. This goes back to not fixing what ain't broke. Why change to a F2P model when your P2P model is kicking everyone else's ass? Hell, why the obsession with F2P all of a sudden? It wasn't long ago that the majority of MMO gamers believed F2P games were inherently crap, and P2P was the only way to guarantee that a game wouldn't be pay2win.

Subscriptions get you everything in-game, including cosmetic items. In GW2, paying cash gives you a significantly higher chance at getting a cosmetic or beneficial item than someone who doesn't. You can argue all you want that these aren't required, blah blah blah. But let's be honest, Black Lion chest keys are probably ANet's biggest moneymakers by a significant margin. What about town clothes? There's such a small selection because they don't make any money off those.

What significant content has ANet released since August? Halloween and Christmas events? Lol. Every MMO does that. FOTM and an extra sPVP mode. That's literally it.

Edited by Treble, 08 January 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Fizzypop]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Are you sure we're the ones wearing rose tinted glasses ? Arenanet doesnt charge a subscription and yet has released a lot of content every single month and has been since its release. WoW on the other hand charges a subscription and seems to be release an average of 3 updates per expansion. Unless I am mistaken and please correct me if I am wrong (got this data off the patch notes on the official site) in cataclysm they released 3 updates. 4.1 in april 2011. 4.2 in june but has only fixes as far as I can tell.  4.3 in november. So new content was released twice in april and novemeber then nothing until the patch for pandaria.

I hope I am missing something, I truely do but I if i am reading this right 4.1 brought 2 dungeons and 4.3 brought 1 dungeon. There were features added to each patch so not saying these dungeons are the only content added.  Anyhow according to youtube its 3 dungeons that take less then 2 hours each to complete. (actually the 2nd dungeon in 4.1 can be completed in less then 30 mins) and the first instance seems to use the same map as an older instance and has just the encounters changed) Unless I missed something Gw2 has already released more content in its first few months than WoW release during all of that year (excluding cataclysm itself of course)

Again not commenting about the quality of WoW, they do have more players and thus is defintiely a more successful game, not debating that. Likewise if thats all that was released Anet is different in that they do release more content and all for free.

I have no idea why people keep trying to compare updates to other games. Wow has a different system and isn't going to update every month. However, there are trade offs for it. Anet's updates have also been largely lack luster so I really wouldn't want to put them up against a game that offers by far better updates to the game.

[Feathermoore]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Why not?
EvE is a "small" game? And yet those devs keep it running.
And why would players still pay a sub-fee then? If they're not going to update it anymore?

Just to clarify the facts here,

EVE releases expansions just like every other big MMO. The only difference being that you don't have to buy the expansions. EVE has never changed the basic structure of the game and all of the "big" changes have been to fix obvious imbalances in game systems or to add new "dungeons".

The expansions added ships, rebalanced ships, added new missions, improved existing or created new social/business systems (contracts/bounty), added a "PvP lite" mode with faction warfare, balance updates to warfare systems, and added "barbie doll mode." None of the EVE expansions changed anything about the operation or system that the game was based on.

Updates in EVE are pretty rare with expansions coming every 6 months.

Edited by Feathermoore, 08 January 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[Ghostwing]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I wouldn't know anything past WotLK. I stopped playing then, because I feel that's when Blizzard stopped even trying (Deathwing as a final boss should've been a dead giveaway). But before I quit, Blizzard was releasing content long before even 5% of the population could complete the existing ones. Hell, it took most people more than 3 months just to get past Professor Putricide.

Yeah but that's due to weekly lockouts and trash respawns. People would clear the content way faster if there weren't those artificial hinderances to slow them down.

[Arquenya]

XPhiler, on 08 January 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Still its a disgrace in my opinion. I have nothing against subscription, played many subscription based games but you know you expect that perhaps you should get something out of your subscription and in that regard Blizzard have been just too greedy IMHO. Eve gives out updates free of charge.

Do me a favour XPhiler and don't try to tell me that ANet isn't greedy and Blizzard is, just because the latter asks a sub fee and releases payed expansions every 2/3 years.
I'd rather pay a sub fee and let the game company work on actual content than having to pay gems for fine transmutation stones, a change of hairstyle, an armour set, character slots, bank slots, keys and so on (which are free in a sub fee game). And gem shops lend themselves for abuse by the game company - what if ANet employees just buy your gems with created money? It becomes the equivalent of buying gold for cash.

As a matter of fact, I (and a lot of other people) have spent far more gems on that stuff than a subscription worth of money. I have spent at least 8,750 gems on stuff from the gem shop. Which is worth at least 110 euro, plus 60 euro for the game. Not a bad income after 5 months for a "no subscription fee" game with free updates; it's double the income what you on average pay for 6 months in a subscription game. And the fact that I bought most of it with gold doesn't mean that people haven't paid RL cash for it in the first place.

And EVE "expansions" in the last 5 years were (except the WH release with T3 cruisers, Tengu <3!) usually more what I'd call patches or small updates. A few new ships in one update, the silly Sanscha "DE like" incursions update in another, the extremely boring planetary farm stuff in yet another, new character creation and captain's cabins (but so buggy that you can never meet other people) and a cash shop in another .. nothing much compared to a whole new continent full of streamlined content that Blizzard offers in their expansions.

Edited by Arquenya, 09 January 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Treble]

Ghostwing, on 08 January 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Yeah but that's due to weekly lockouts and trash respawns. People would clear the content way faster if there weren't those artificial hinderances to slow them down.

Silly excuse. Lockouts don't prevent progress. It only prevents repeating a boss you've already defeated.

Trash is trash. They are easily cleared.

What hinders people is their inability to coordinate. Period. Night and day difference between my endgame guild clearing 25H Putricide and playing hot potatoes with the curse like pros, and a 25 normal Putricide pug or noob guild that can't consistently switch to adds or step out of slime.

Edited by Treble, 09 January 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[iLag]

Gilles VI, on 07 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

• Content of bethesda a masterpiece?? I guess that's why there are so many mods that don't even add stuff, but just fix what bethesda can't or won't do.
  
  
• TeS:O isn't made by bethesda but by a entirely new company.
  
  
• It's quite stupid you're already praising the combat from it and flaming on GW2 combat system.
  Did you watch the same video as me? Cause at a certain time I saw 2 people tanking a boss and others just standing still casting stuff, same old boring stuff.
  They still have alot to prove, everyone can wield anything?
  Let's see how they balance heavy vs light armor, 2h versus 1h weapons, etc etc.
  btw they never said anything about "on the fly", might aswell be bound like traits in GW2.
  
  
• And did you see the graphics? It's nothing like TeS.. It's like an updated WoW, it looks like WoW made 2 years later, that's all.
  God did you even see the Khajit in that vid? Absolutely ridiculous and absolutely nothing like TeS.

Now you're just trolling.
TeS:O is nothing like TeS, and especially not like Morrowind..

What makes TeS famous:

• Huge world free to explore
  
• Real time combat
  
• Ability to build however you want
  
• Personal impact on the world
  
• Dark/realistic graphics

Guess what TeS:o doesn't have?

This x100 Even Bethesda stated when they got their hands on Guild Wars 2 via their twitter that playing Guild Wars 2 was like playing Skyrim online.

You know lucas, the things you expected from guild wars 2 were never possible due to the technological/money barriers at this current time. Perhaps if you did anything with your life other than talk shit about the game on its fansite you may know that.

Also you are wanting a SKYRIM. With online and people walking around, that is ridiculous and the lag/servers needed for that is humongous. GIllies outlines quite clearly why it's going to be nothing like you are wanting it to be.

[Ghostwing]

Treble, on 09 January 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Silly excuse. Lockouts don't prevent progress. It only prevents repeating a boss you've already defeated.

Trash is trash. They are easily cleared.

What hinders people is their inability to coordinate. Period. Night and day difference between my endgame guild clearing 25H Putricide and playing hot potatoes with the curse like pros, and a 25 normal Putricide pug or noob guild that can't consistently switch to adds or step out of slime.

When it takes an hour to clear trash and you're trying to figure out a boss, those hours rack up. When the trash responds, it's time to call it a night because it's going to take another hour or whatever just to get back to the boss. Lockouts prevent progress when obtaining gear allows you to get further into the dungeon easier, but you can't obtain that gear because you have to wait till the end of the week. Have you ever full cleared a raid without using gear from that raid? I'm not making excuses, I'm saying your point about the WoW devs providing content when most people haven't cleared the current content doesn't mean much when the game is designed around keeping your sub alive as much as possible--and lockouts and trash respawns accomplish that. People would've cleared the content quicker if there was no arbitrary trash respawn time or weekly lockout.

Edited by Ghostwing, 09 January 2013 - 03:27 AM.

[Big Ol Norn]

Roybe, on 27 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Basically, with all the problems of grind

What grind? Or do you mean the game doesn't play itself for you? Saying there's grind in this game is ridiculous and fails to draw a comparison to ANY MMO with less of a 'grind' than GW2. Because there aren't any. This game is really easy to level in unless you're doing it wrong and not paying attention to what things give you XP (events, gathering, PVP) and what doesn't... standing around killing moas.

Roybe, on 27 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Gems for gold,

I admit this could have been weird. But actually it also works in REVERSE... meaning you can get more character slots, storage, and anything in the store, just by playing GW2. No cash involved. I already have tons of free stuff since it works that way so I don't understand the complaint... unless once again someone has failed to understand the full details of the system.

Roybe, on 27 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

missing promises (I'm looking at you guesting), etc.

Yeah in the sheer size of the game not every possible thing was ready. But they still give MASSIVE updates every month? What else do you want... a personal squad of people with unlimited wealth to develop your personal game? We have close to that already...

So yes, imo GOTY awards were deserved.

Now, I understand people "get mad" online and massively lose track of the blessings and positives of something (though in this game there could be a list a mile long) and rant and rave. Ok. Do your thing. Nobody's stopping you. But it got awards because some people can see that good stuff.

Edited by Big Ol Norn, 09 January 2013 - 03:51 AM.

[Treble]

Ghostwing, on 09 January 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

When it takes an hour to clear trash and you're trying to figure out a boss, those hours rack up. When the trash responds, it's time to call it a night because it's going to take another hour or whatever just to get back to the boss. Lockouts prevent progress when obtaining gear allows you to get further into the dungeon easier, but you can't obtain that gear because you have to wait till the end of the week. Have you ever full cleared a raid without using gear from that raid? I'm not making excuses, I'm saying your point about the WoW devs providing content when most people haven't cleared the current content doesn't mean much when the game is designed around keeping your sub alive as much as possible--and lockouts and trash respawns accomplish that. People would've cleared the content quicker if there was no arbitrary trash respawn time or weekly lockout.

I've cleared raids using gear I've acquired during the times it took to learn and execute a fight, without having to intentionally farm a boss. The only times I've had full gear from the latest dungeon was C'thun (because AQ40 only had 5 tier pieces and C'thun was impossible to kill) and Ulduar (because we were trying for all the Heroic achievements and Firefighter was damn hard).

Really, the only person in raid who has any business being in full current gear is the tank/off tanks. Even DPS checks like Patchwerk (could be beaten in T2/T2.5) and Festergut (could be beaten in T9) didn't need current gear.

[Ghostwing]

Treble, on 09 January 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

I've cleared raids using gear I've acquired during the times it took to learn and execute a fight, without having to intentionally farm a boss. The only times I've had full gear from the latest dungeon was C'thun (because AQ40 only had 5 tier pieces and C'thun was impossible to kill) and Ulduar (because we were trying for all the Heroic achievements and Firefighter was damn hard).

Really, the only person in raid who has any business being in full current gear is the tank/off tanks. Even DPS checks like Patchwerk (could be beaten in T2/T2.5) and Festergut (could be beaten in T9) didn't need current gear.

Not talking about having a full set, just having bits and pieces of current gear makes current content easier to clear. Without weekly lockouts your tanks would be geared that much faster and be much better prepared for the harder bosses deeper into the raid. And even if it's not a necessity, it'd still lead to faster content clears if there were no weekly lockouts, particularly if your guild has members who can play some weeks and not other weeks, or if your drops have been unlucky, etc etc.

[witteker]

heated discussion.

[Treble]

Ghostwing, on 09 January 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Not talking about having a full set, just having bits and pieces of current gear makes current content easier to clear. Without weekly lockouts your tanks would be geared that much faster and be much better prepared for the harder bosses deeper into the raid. And even if it's not a necessity, it'd still lead to faster content clears if there were no weekly lockouts, particularly if your guild has members who can play some weeks and not other weeks, or if your drops have been unlucky, etc etc.

Then that would just make encounters completely gear dependent, rather than skill. I've been through plenty of raids that were a huge challenge in regular gear, that became easier and easier as our guild geared up -- to the point where the fights were no longer dynamic, but were systematic instead.

Take 25H Sindragosa, for example. If you ever fought her while your entire raid was in non-heroic 25-man gear with the global ICC buff between 5-10%, you absolutely had to hide from her pull + nova, and you had to constantly wipe the stacking debuff behind ice spikes. It was way more dependent on group coordination, knowing whose ice spike to DPS down first, while giving others enough time to hide behind the spikes to clear the debuff before you broke them.

In that same exact fight in full 25-man heroic gear, you could literally stand in one place the entire time (barring the pull + nova) without clearing the stacking debuff, and not worry about dying because you had the HP to withstand the DOT increments, AND your healers could outheal it.

Lockouts provide a balance between gear and skill. Otherwise people would just brute force their way to Heroic gear without actually utilizing the proper 25-man coordination that the encounters were designed for, similar to how people in GW2 dungeons simply run face first into a boss with no real strategy, because they just respawn over and over again anyway. They're perfectly doable (with the exception of the few bosses that required nerfing) without all the latest gear, but they require a lot more coordination. I remember a blue post mentioning that raids were designed to be completed by players using gear from the tier below the current raid dungeon.

Edited by Treble, 09 January 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Ghostwing]

Treble, on 09 January 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Then that would just make encounters completely gear dependent, rather than skill. I've been through plenty of raids that were a huge challenge in regular gear, that became easier and easier as our guild geared up -- to the point where the fights were no longer dynamic, but were systematic instead.

Take 25H Sindragosa, for example. If you ever fought her while your entire raid was in non-heroic 25-man gear with the global ICC buff between 5-10%, you absolutely had to hide from her pull + nova, and you had to constantly wipe the stacking debuff behind ice spikes. It was way more dependent on group coordination, knowing whose ice spike to DPS down first, while giving others enough time to hide behind the spikes to clear the debuff before you broke them.

In that same exact fight in full 25-man heroic gear, you could literally stand in one place the entire time (barring the pull + nova) without clearing the stacking debuff, and not worry about dying because you had the HP to withstand the DOT increments, AND your healers could outheal it.

Lockouts provide a balance between gear and skill. Otherwise people would just brute force their way to Heroic gear without actually utilizing the proper 25-man coordination that the encounters were designed for, similar to how people in GW2 dungeons simply run face first into a boss with no real strategy, because they just respawn over and over again anyway. They're perfectly doable (with the exception of the few bosses that required nerfing) without all the latest gear, but they require a lot more coordination. I remember a blue post mentioning that raids were designed to be completed by players using gear from the tier below the current raid dungeon.

Well the WoW raids kinda are gear dependent lol. If the raids were skill dependent and designed for gear from the previous tier, they'd make it so you can't dumb it down with the current tier till you clear the current tier. I'm aware gear makes fights trivial--that is exactly what you are aiming for when you are "gearing up." It's not for PVP or whatever because that's what gladiator gear is for.

Edited by Ghostwing, 09 January 2013 - 05:29 AM.

[Treble]

Ghostwing, on 09 January 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Well the WoW raids kinda are gear dependent lol. If the raids were skill dependent and designed for gear from the previous tier, they'd make it so you can't dumb it down with the current tier till you clear the current tier. I'm aware gear makes fights trivial--that is exactly what you are aiming for when you are "gearing up." It's not for PVP or whatever because that's what gladiator gear is for.

AFAIK, pretty much all guilds in the world top 100 aim for bragging rights when it comes to raiding, rather than the gear itself. It's only really the guilds below that threshold (possibly starts much lower) that pursue gear for the sole purpose of making fights easier. I was in a world top 50 guild myself for most of my WoW "career", and gear was a lot less important than fight mechanics unless someone like a recruit was severely (speaking 2-3 tiers below content) undergeared.

By the time the rest of the population have enough gear to complete raids, the front-running guilds already consider the content trivial. In fact, most of the officers in major guilds give raid room to lower-ranked members once certain content is cleared, regardless of whether or not they have all the gear they can get from that boss. Though there are those like myself (I've never won first place, sadly) who aim to be the top of the world rankings in parses.

Edited by Treble, 09 January 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[Ghostwing]

Treble, on 09 January 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

AFAIK, pretty much all guilds in the world top 100 aim for bragging rights when it comes to raiding, rather than the gear itself. It's only really the guilds below that threshold (possibly starts much lower) that pursue gear for the sole purpose of making fights easier. I was in a world top 50 guild myself for most of my WoW "career", and gear was a lot less important than fight mechanics unless someone like a recruit was severely (speaking 2-3 tiers below content) undergeared.

By the time the rest of the population have enough gear to complete raids, the front-running guilds already consider the content trivial. In fact, most of the officers in major guilds give raid room to lower-ranked members once certain content is cleared, regardless of whether or not they have all the gear they can get from that boss. Though there are those like myself (I've never won first place, sadly) who aim to be the top of the world rankings in parses.

The gear makes it easier to obtain those bragging rights; you can be sure everyone is equipping gear as soon as they get it, and the faster you get gear the faster you complete content because the more geared you are the easier the content becomes. It's a race to complete content, not a "look at me I completed it with the lowest gear possible so therefore I am more skilled than any of you gear-having suckers."

Edit: But point taken, so weekly lockouts are there so the world firsts don't happen because a guild farmed the first few bosses 24/7. Still, though, that's a very small minority of players. The top 500 guilds make up a small amount of total raiders in WoW. The weekly lockout slows down progression for the rest of the raiders, the 95% who didn't complete Putricide before new content was added. If there were no lockouts, that 95% might've completed it before new content came out. For the top 50, the current content had long been trivial before the next piece of content came out.

Edited by Ghostwing, 09 January 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[XPhiler]

Treble, on 08 January 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I wouldn't know anything past WotLK. I stopped playing then, because I feel that's when Blizzard stopped even trying (Deathwing as a final boss should've been a dead giveaway).

Aside from that, you're comparing two different business models and using that as a meter for game quality. I don't think I need to tell you how silly that is. Consider the fact that Blizzard's business model was the norm when WoW was released. This goes back to not fixing what ain't broke. Why change to a F2P model when your P2P model is kicking everyone else's ass?

Subscriptions get you everything in-game, including cosmetic items. In GW2, paying cash gives you a significantly higher chance at getting a cosmetic or beneficial item than someone who doesn't. You can argue all you want that these aren't required, blah blah blah. But let's be honest, Black Lion chest keys are probably ANet's biggest moneymakers by a significant margin. What about town clothes? There's such a small selection because they don't make any money off those.

What significant content has ANet released since August? Halloween and Christmas events? Lol. Every MMO does that. FOTM and an extra sPVP mode. That's literally it.

I dont agree. The business model has no bearing on the game quality or quantity of content released.

I never suggested WoW should switch to F2P, it would be crazy. Most MMOs would probably do more profit if they switched to F2P but I definitely would say thats not the case with WoW.

Hmm Wrong, Subscription did long ago provide you with everything in game but thats no longer the case. Eve online, WoW and TSW are (were in TSW case) all P2P, they still had a cash shop that sold stuff.

While its true no cosmetic item is required you're not prevented from acquring any cosmetic item in Gw2 without paying a single cent. How can you tell with absolute certaintity that the reason there is a small selection of town cloths its because they dont make money of it rather then because its a secondary area of the game thats yet to be properly expanded? Jumping puzzles dont make any money directly either yet there are many of them. Acheivements dont make any money yet there are plenty of them as well. If it was all about the money, couldnt they sell towncloths like they do costumes anyway?

Sure all MMOs have winter and halloween events. How many of them have the ammount of content that Gw2 provided? Making a holiday event is one thing, the content you provide in that holliday event is an entirely different thing.

Gw2 for each holday event gave us multiple maps, multiple mini games, dungeons, new events, new jps, open world colletables. scaverger hunt. And thats excluding the other events things like the 30 new dynamic events introduced in halloween unrelated to the event itself. The 3 new jumping puzzle unrelated to the holiday event. The new skritt theif encounter. No not all other MMOs do that, not even close. In most cases other MMOs give you a couple of easy repeatable quests with no real story that reward you tokens you then exchange for a few different prizes.

Example I also played the Startrek online xmas event this year. That had just one small map in it there with 5 activities you could do. pickup snowballs with a random chance of getting tokens. Snowball fight other players (no reward but kinda fun). A race against an NPC you could do once a day that gave you one kinda of token you needed to get the main prize with. You had to repeat this 2 minute race 25 times to get the prize. Another 2 minute race that repeats every x mins that gave you yet another token you could use to get a pet. An event where you had to snowball fight snowmen that rewarded you with the same tokens you get picking up snowballs. Thats it.

Lets compare that with wintersday shall we? Essentally you got 4 new maps (the dungeon, the chime bells, the jumping puzzle, the snowball fight arena). Presents to collect from the open world with a random encounter that can be any one from 6 different possibilities.  Hidden magic snow you can find and turn into snowman. 275 new crafting recipes. You had an event where the toymaker airship would fly in every major city every day.  You had a dungeon that had a few varied encounters you would get at random making it a little different each time you played it. You got a new pvp game with completely new skills that was even designed with roles in mind. You got a tower defense mini game, you got a guitar hero like mini game, a jumping puzzle that had 3 different paths you could get at random. One huge city got essentially completely redesigned to fit the holiday spirit. A bunch of achievements you could get including a title.

Not exactly the same thing is it.

Also correction together with FoTM and a new sPvP map you also got a new map (southern cove) the size of halve a whole zone,  very beautiful map that had new enemies some of which had a new mechanic so to speak (an armor layer you had to destory before you can actually hurt them and they made it so you actually see the armor desintegrate as you hit them, quite neat), new collectable objects, had a whole one time storyline that was built during the course of a couple of weeks (whales washing ashore, new ships, posters and warning signs all around, a new asura gate being built etc..), 2 new jumping puzzles one of which is pretty epic, a few new events.

[XPhiler]

Fizzypop, on 08 January 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I have no idea why people keep trying to compare updates to other games. Wow has a different system and isn't going to update every month. However, there are trade offs for it. Anet's updates have also been largely lack luster so I really wouldn't want to put them up against a game that offers by far better updates to the game.

I disagree, I find updates that release one new dungeon every 3 months to be a lot more lackluster then an update that releases a ton of different content. I hate repeating the same content so just a new dungeon will maybe keep me occupied 8 perhaps 10 hours in a single month?  in case of wintersday I just couldnt stop playing it cause there was so much different stuff to do. Not bashing wow by any means, Some people like dungeons and would take that over wintersday every single time I know that.  What I am saying is you cant generalize. You cannot call either update strategy lackluster because each one is exactly what some people are looking for.

[XPhiler]

Feathermoore, on 08 January 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Just to clarify the facts here,

EVE releases expansions just like every other big MMO. The only difference being that you don't have to buy the expansions. EVE has never changed the basic structure of the game and all of the "big" changes have been to fix obvious imbalances in game systems or to add new "dungeons".

The expansions added ships, rebalanced ships, added new missions, improved existing or created new social/business systems (contracts/bounty), added a "PvP lite" mode with faction warfare, balance updates to warfare systems, and added "barbie doll mode." None of the EVE expansions changed anything about the operation or system that the game was based on.

Updates in EVE are pretty rare with expansions coming every 6 months.

Actually I beleived they did update both operational and system components of the game. They updated the graphical engine. In fact for a while there were two client.  the classic client and the premium client which used the old and new graphic engine respectively. They also changed scanning from a simple 2d system to a fully 3rd system. They changed the way they handle lag a few times, from turning off effects, closing off jumpgates that had high traffic to the time dialation system.  They changed how missiles are displayed in game, they changed various effects from engine trails to the warp tunnel effect. They updated ship models a few times.

[XPhiler]

Arquenya, on 09 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Do me a favour XPhiler and don't try to tell me that ANet isn't greedy and Blizzard is, just because the latter asks a sub fee and releases payed expansions every 2/3 years.
I'd rather pay a sub fee and let the game company work on actual content than having to pay gems for fine transmutation stones, a change of hairstyle, an armour set, character slots, bank slots, keys and so on (which are free in a sub fee game). And gem shops lend themselves for abuse by the game company - what if ANet employees just buy your gems with created money? It becomes the equivalent of buying gold for cash.

As a matter of fact, I (and a lot of other people) have spent far more gems on that stuff than a subscription worth of money. I have spent at least 8,750 gems on stuff from the gem shop. Which is worth at least 110 euro, plus 60 euro for the game. Not a bad income after 5 months for a "no subscription fee" game with free updates; it's double the income what you on average pay for 6 months in a subscription game. And the fact that I bought most of it with gold doesn't mean that people haven't paid RL cash for it in the first place.

And EVE "expansions" in the last 5 years were (except the WH release with T3 cruisers, Tengu <3!) usually more what I'd call patches or small updates. A few new ships in one update, the silly Sanscha "DE like" incursions update in another, the extremely boring planetary farm stuff in yet another, new character creation and captain's cabins (but so buggy that you can never meet other people) and a cash shop in another .. nothing much compared to a whole new continent full of streamlined content that Blizzard offers in their expansions.

I would definitely say its less greedy, yes no doubt in my mind. Truth of the matter is what you pay beyond those 60 euros is entirely in your hands in Gw2 in WoW it isnt. Anet allows you to enjoy everything in the cash shop without having to shell out a single cent if you so desire.The gold to gem conversion is very generous compared to other games that have such a system as well. You said it yourself most of the gems you needed you bought with ingame money. Not saying you're wrong obviously some people bought a ton of gems with real money but it was entirely their choice and that makes a huge difference. If I dont want to pay a single cent I am not penalized in any way in gw2. I am not even denied anything for I can still get what I want by playing the game and coverting in game money to gems. In a P2P game like WoW if I dont pay I am penalized. I am locked out. Now dont get me wrong I am not saying all P2P games are greedy. I wouldnt consider EvE greedy for example. They charge a subscription but they give a lot of stuff back for that subscription. Essentially you get the whole game and the updates free of charge and thats reasonable. Rift isnt greedy either, they give a lot of content free for the subscription. I was just saying Blizzard are greedy because I dont feel they really give anything close to enough in return for that subscription. 3x 2hr dungeons in a year and half time for $270 isnt reasonable its greedy (if thats really only what they provide, dont play WoW myself based that on their cataclysm patch release information might have missed something)

Ultimately each company is a business and like any business they try to make as much money as possible. Free to play isnt free, its not meant to be free like the phrase says itself its only free to play the game itself nothing else. I can tell you one thing though. While I have paid some money in nearly every single free to play game I played I never came close to the 1200+ euros I gave CCP over the years in any of them. (again not saying CCP didnt diserve the money or that its greedy because it charged me so much, only that being free to pay as much as you want when you want does make a difference).

I dont agree you should judge how much a game costs by looking at how much money the highest spending player payed. I think its more fair to judge how much a game costs by how much money you're forced to pay. In case of Gw2 so far thats the cost of the expansions everything else you're free not to pay for without even being denied the object itself. you will always get people who overspend, I once saw a post on a f2p game forum by a player who claimed to have just spent $5000 in the cash shop in one single go. And this isnt limited to f2p games either, how many people spent tons of money selling plex in eve, gurdian cubs in wow and converting that into ingame gold?