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End of year GOTY Awards...agree or disagree....


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#421 XPhiler

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

No, you can't. You can only do that if you buy gems using gold, but since the prices in the gem store (gems per item) are fixed, and the price in gold for a single gem is always increasing (since the amount of gold in the economy is always increasing), you will need to hurry to buy gems before the total price of all gems you need exceed the total amount of gold that you'll make during your entire GW2 career.

Basically, you'd be right if you would play GW2 for infinite time, but you won't do that.

Not really. Or well lets say it depends how much stuff you want off the cash shop. If you plan to buy everything thats one thing, if you want to max storage / buy new costumes at they come out, some skins etc.. its another thing. Then again that problem exists in-game as well and is true in p2p MMOs as well.

No one can afford everything all the time. If what you want is more then what you afford it doesnt mean you cant buy it ever, it means you still have to play X amount of hours before you can buy it.

#422 witteker

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Correct, they are not well defined. Consider that the moon is an object. Mozart is a (dead) object. The president of the United States of America are two object (the abstract concept of the president and the actual physical one). And so on. Saying that "all objects need to be scripted" is nonsense, not only because "object" is not well defined, but also because a real-RNG is an object.

Every object in GW2 is scripted.  If you think otherwise, you have no idea how computer language works.

#423 raspberry jam

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:40 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Not really. Or well lets say it depends how much stuff you want off the cash shop. If you plan to buy everything thats one thing, if you want to max storage / buy new costumes at they come out, some skins etc.. its another thing. Then again that problem exists in-game as well and is true in p2p MMOs as well.

No one can afford everything all the time. If what you want is more then what you afford it doesnt mean you cant buy it ever, it means you still have to play X amount of hours before you can buy it.
Yes, and if X is bigger than the total amount of hours you'll play GW2 (possibly because you expire or the servers are closed), it would be literally impossible to ever afford it.

View Postwitteker, on 10 January 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Every object in GW2 is scripted.  If you think otherwise, you have no idea how computer language works.
I have more than a decade of experience in programming so I think I know how "computer language" works. Now tell me how the behaviour of the object that represents the player in-game is fully scripted. Go ahead. Be specific and actually say something instead of making fuzzy bullshit statements that says nothing because they are too vague and would be false if they were not. :surprised:

Edited by raspberry jam, 10 January 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#424 XPhiler

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:13 PM

Spoiler

Mod Edit: Do not quote wars.

Edited by Feathermoore, 10 January 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#425 Treble

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

-snip-
The problem with your arguments, as you said with mine, is that you assume everyone is fine with how endgame works. You imply that people should be ok with not getting the best gear, or the best skins, because they don't need it to compete.

That's fine, that's your playstyle, and I agree that you may be defending ANet because you genuinely like the game as it is (which I already conceded to in the past). But don't try to use that as an argument against someone else's playstyle in an effort to bolster your case, because that just makes you a hypocrite. You're essentially saying that your playstyle is being catered to, so screw everyone else's.

Some of us don't care about PVE, but we have to do it to stay competitive (I'm primarily a WvW player). So, yes, I do have to have Ascended gear, and I do have to have Legendaries. If you don't think it matters, tell me how well you did against a decent player in full exotics and runes while you were wearing rares. Be honest now.

Regardless, you still didn't answer my question. Do you think it's right to defend ANet for leaving a bunch of bugged quest chains for months on end in order to make money off holiday events? I know a bunch of people who were waiting for that Balthazar event to be fixed, either to finish their exotics or get stuff for their legendaries.

Edited by Treble, 10 January 2013 - 03:24 PM.


#426 XPhiler

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Yes, and if X is bigger than the total amount of hours you'll play GW2 (possibly because you expire or the servers are closed), it would be literally impossible to ever afford it.

Once Again how is that any different then say me not playing EvE online enough to be able to afford a carrier ? Thats not a gold -> gems issues thats a personal economic issue thats not related to any specific business model. If you want more then you can afford then yes you'll have to play more to earn the money to afford it, gemshop or not.

#427 XPhiler

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostTreble, on 10 January 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

The problem with your arguments, as you said with mine, is that you assume everyone is fine with how endgame works. You imply that people should be ok with not getting the best gear, or the best skins, because they don't need it to compete.

That's fine, that's your playstyle, and I agree that you may be defending ANet because you genuinely like the game as it is (which I already conceded to in the past). But don't try to use that as an argument against someone else's playstyle in an effort to bolster your case, because that just makes you a hypocrite. Some of us don't care about PVE, but we have to do it to stay competitive (I'm primarily a WvW player).

So, yes, I do have to have Ascended gear, and I do have to have Legendaries. If you don't think it matters, tell me how well you did against a decent player in full exotics and runes while you were wearing rares. Be honest now.

Regardless, you still didn't answer my question. Do you think it's right to defend ANet for leaving a bunch of bugged quest chains for months on end in order to make money off holiday events? I know a bunch of people who were waiting for that Balthazar event to be fixed, either to finish their exotics or get stuff for their legendaries.

Can you please point out where in any of my posts I said dont get ascended gear or dont get a legendary?

All I said is you dont have to grind unless you want to, I didnt say just ignore ascended gear or legendaries.
For example you said you're WvW player so then I assume you enjoy playing WvW right? Well guess what once Ascended gear will be fully deployed in game you'll be able to aquire it just by playing what you enjoy WvW.

In all honesty I actually did a little experiament once when there was this ascended gear panic I woke up early one morning so took advantage of the low WvW population and tried a little experiment. I started playing wearing no armor and no accessories. So not 1 tier below max but a whole 5 tiers below the max. did a few events no problem, failed others. Could kill supply convoy but could not take on a supply depo (anyhow dont think you can do this solo anyway). PvP wise I ended up with 7 kills and 2 deaths. Even more surprisinlgy in two cases I came across a single enemy who decided to run away. Guess he might have feared the naked man running at him with a staff. Cant blame him. But In all seriousness I was surpised. To be honest I had expected people to behave like I was an easy kill and go out of their way to engage me rather then run away in fear. Gear is important 7:2 kill ratio is good but I do better with a proper armor set no doubt but its not as crucial as you think. Again not saying you shouldnt bother with ascended armor, if thats what you enjoy thats definitely what you should get. Just you dont need to play the game in a way you dont enjoy in order to get it in 1/2 the time (unless you want to) in most cases it will not make a big difference especially considering that in most encounters there will be far bigger balancing issues.

If they negected to fix the events to introduce more content with the intention of making money that would be very bad yes without a doubt. But let me ask you something. How do you know they didnt fix the balthazar event specifically to make more money off the holiday events? I would like to point out that 1. They said multiple times that the team creating the content is different then the team doing fixes and then the team working on the expansion. Furthermore I would point out that the wintersday patch included 289 fixes based on the patch notes so its not like they didnt fix anything.

#428 raspberry jam

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I dont think it would work implementing all dynamic events this way but it would work having such random events occuring here and there to provide a bit of randomness kinda like the skritt thief event. Keep in mind that dynamic events chain into a storyline of their own and well that is just hard to achieve in a totally random system.

-- snippage --


The system wouldn't be "totally random", it would be arbitrated by a multicomponent system. That makes it look random, while it's actually not. Kind of like traffic jams in Sim City? They occur because you put residential zone too far from industrial zone with a park 1/3 on the way there or something of that nature, all of these conditions adding to some condition independently instead of being parts of a larger script.

Personally I don't think that most of the subpar stories are fun. Some of them are, but most are not worth paying attention to even the first time through (which you unfortunately have to do or else you can't check if the story is good or not).

Anyway so you for some reason haven't done all the jumping puzzles already? Why not? And lol monthly achievement, yes I guess that one isn't repetitive, you got me there.

Um right yes the difference is in the names of the skills and in the animations. I don't see how that is important... If I pretend that my elementalist's staff is a warrior's longbow, pretend that fireballs are arrows etc., then it's the same. Other games (with more clearly defined roles for each class) doesn't allow you to do that. Pretending that a GW1 elementalist's staff is a GW1 warrior's axe would just net you with a dead elementalist.

Well then it's fortunate that you were not the developer of Dwarf Fortress. Yes, it's still acting out scripted roles, but that script is far more complex and has multiple levels of indirection. Take the example: sure, the baby falls in the barrel. Some other dwarf closes it which leads to the baby drowning... One important thing comes here already. If that dwarf was clever enough, or good enough at brewing ale, he might recognize that babies are not part of ale, and would remove the baby from the barrel first. Is that scripted? Hell yes but that script only takes into account the contents of the barrel. They do not say anything specifically about babies. Anyway he shuts the barrel and the baby drowns. Now look at the mother. Does she throw a tantrum? Not immediately no, because there is no scripted rule telling her to go mad if her baby drowns. Instead, there's some note in her internal list of stuff to care about, that she cares about the baby. Again this doesn't matter right away. Slowly but surely though, she starts getting worried about the baby. Simply because she haven't seen it for long. Note that this is scripted as well - but the script says to increase worry levels if she can't find the item on her "to care for" list, not specifically that she should become worried if her baby is gone or drowned. After a while her worry level is so high that another thing triggers: another script that says that if a dwarf is too worried, the chance that s/he goes mad increases. Finally she snaps.

Note: here we don't have a single script detailing the story of her going mad. It was several small scripts, that hooked into each other in interesting ways. The interesting part is that due to the multitude of such scripts, interacting with each other, any sort of storyline can emerge - for example, that barrel could accidentally have been chosen to be opened at any time (because there might have been a thirsty dwarf nearby), and the baby would have been found, either dead or alive, with all the consequences of that happening.
There is a considerable difference between this, and the GW2 way of respawning a fixed scripted event just because a fixed amount of players have passed through a certain area.

Eh, it's not that hard to implement. The area would not be that well defined. Not everything happens in a cell of 10 nearby houses. The next time someone sets up camp in one of the houses (if that's even what happens, which is doesn't have to be) it can very well affect an area of 5 of those houses plus 4 others that were not affected before. You are correct though in that there must always be things popping up/going wrong. If that didn't happen, the game would run out of things to fight. If you kill off all the bandits in the bandit hideout, which should be possible, then there would need to be new enemies somewhere, either in the same place or somewhere else.

i think you have missed the entire point if you assume for some reason that bandits would be the sole source of butter. Butter comes from milk, you know, which comes from cows. While it would make sense to have many sorts of enemies drop it (because a lot of people, even bad guys, want to have butter on their breakfast toast, so a lot of enemies should have butter), it would also make sense to have farmers sell you butter. It would also make sense to have NPCs give you hints about bandits only when bandits are actually nearby. Or rather, when these NPCs think that bandits are nearby, whether they are or not. Or rather, when those NPCs want you to think that there are bandits nearby (either because they want the bandits gone, or because they plan to lure you into the woods and rob you blind).

You would not have 8 DEs that can't run. You would have millions of dynamically emerging events that can't run, some of which involves bandits, others which involve little girls infected with plague and others which involve big ass dragons appearing and setting fire to the village. Or no, wait actually, you can run that last one regardless of who's in any of the houses of the village.

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Once Again how is that any different then say me not playing EvE online enough to be able to afford a carrier ? Thats not a gold -> gems issues thats a personal economic issue thats not related to any specific business model. If you want more then you can afford then yes you'll have to play more to earn the money to afford it, gemshop or not.
It's not very different. It's just that you said that "in Gw2 you can unlock all without paying anything", which is not true.

Edited by unraveled, 11 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.
No need to quote the whole thing.


#429 Treble

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

In all honesty I actually did a little experiament once when there was this ascended gear panic I woke up early one morning so took advantage of the low WvW population and tried a little experiment. I started playing wearing no armor and no accessories. So not 1 tier below max but a whole 5 tiers below the max. did a few events no problem, failed others. Could kill supply convoy but could not take on a supply depo (anyhow dont think you can do this solo anyway). PvP wise I ended up with 7 kills and 2 deaths.
I said decent player in exotics, not some Lv1 upscaled to 80 who hasn't played a game in his life.

I guarantee I would never lose to a naked person. Ever. Even just spamming my 1 key.

It's BS to say that gear doesn't make as big of a difference as you think. Anyone who's played WvW extensively knows it does. People in the WvW forums know just how much I played that, as I was very active there, so I'm pretty sure I would know what's needed to be competitive gear-wise. I've played multiple classes, from level 1 in noob gear to level 80 in exotic gear, through playing nothing but WvW, and there is a huge damage (and health) discrepancy between rare and exotic gear, much less naked and exotic gear. Unless you want to tell me that 500-600 damage per hit versus 1300-1400 damage per hit isn't a big difference.

And no, there is no way to prove with empirical data that they forego fixing events in favor of making money with holiday events, but it would be naive to think they didn't prioritize holiday events because it would make them more money than fixing an existing one. ANet is a business. They care about players about how much other businesses do. They'll fix enough to keep you interested, but they'll ultimately go the route that gets more money out of your pocket. I mean, seriously, the Halloween event and gambling with Black Lion chests? If you don't see that as a money-grubbing scheme, then there's absolutely no getting your lips off ANet's bum.

Edited by Treble, 10 January 2013 - 04:00 PM.


#430 XPhiler

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:46 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Personally I don't think that most of the subpar stories are fun. Some of them are, but most are not worth paying attention to even the first time through (which you unfortunately have to do or else you can't check if the story is good or not).
I find most of them to be funny actually, its kinda like a light black humor especially the asura ones. Personally I always found the story to be the most worth while thing in questing. The actual combat itself no matter what game becomes repetative very fast.


View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Anyway so you for some reason haven't done all the jumping puzzles already? Why not? And lol monthly achievement, yes I guess that one isn't repetitive, you got me there.
Cause I didnt find them all yet ? have yet to start playing 7 zones which means I obviously didnt find the jumping puzzles there. Cause I like to vary my game play am not the type of player who decides this month I am going to do jp and spend all month doing just that? Plenty of reasons. As for the monthly achievement like I said before its impossible not to repeat anything in an MMO so yes some monthly achievement content is repetative. Well not sure if you can consider killing 50 enemies in WvW repetative per se. But the fractals one can be if you do a lot of fractals. Its also the reason I didnt bother with the monthly achievement last month. Didnt feel like it didnt do it as simple as that. Not sure why it has to be so hard to avoid playing something you dont enjoy.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Um right yes the difference is in the names of the skills and in the animations. I don't see how that is important... If I pretend that my elementalist's staff is a warrior's longbow, pretend that fireballs are arrows etc., then it's the same. Other games (with more clearly defined roles for each class) doesn't allow you to do that. Pretending that a GW1 elementalist's staff is a GW1 warrior's axe would just net you with a dead elementalist.
Come on these tactics are below you, if like you claim you like to excel at any games combat mechanic  surely you can see its a lot more then just different skill names. In any case reread my last post I explained clearly the differences in play style. Tell me how is ele staff the same as warrior bow? Warrior bow is just 3 DPS skills and 2 CCs. Ele Staff is WoW I dont even know where to begin. 7 DPS skills, 2 Self Support skills, 6 group support, 9 Crowd control skills. But yeah sure maximize your combat potentially on you elementalist by just using 3 dps and 2 ccs because well they're the same thing according to you. Hey if you want to simplfy things so much, how is a staff on an ele so different then an axe on a warrior in gw2. They both "just" give you boost to stats and do some damage using a basic attack. Ohh please!

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well then it's fortunate that you were not the developer of Dwarf Fortress. Yes, it's still acting out scripted roles, but that script is far more complex and has multiple levels of indirection. Take the example: sure, the baby falls in the barrel. Some other dwarf closes it which leads to the baby drowning... One important thing comes here already. If that dwarf was clever enough, or good enough at brewing ale, he might recognize that babies are not part of ale, and would remove the baby from the barrel first. Is that scripted? Hell yes but that script only takes into account the contents of the barrel. They do not say anything specifically about babies. Anyway he shuts the barrel and the baby drowns. Now look at the mother. Does she throw a tantrum? Not immediately no, because there is no scripted rule telling her to go mad if her baby drowns. Instead, there's some note in her internal list of stuff to care about, that she cares about the baby. Again this doesn't matter right away. Slowly but surely though, she starts getting worried about the baby. Simply because she haven't seen it for long. Note that this is scripted as well - but the script says to increase worry levels if she can't find the item on her "to care for" list, not specifically that she should become worried if her baby is gone or drowned. After a while her worry level is so high that another thing triggers: another script that says that if a dwarf is too worried, the chance that s/he goes mad increases. Finally she snaps.
Scripts dont have to fire off at once, you can still simulate gradually increased worry level by delaying the excusion of the chosen outcome no problem. Maybe dwarf fortress does have the complexity you mention underneat it but it would have been a waste of resource if thats the case in my opinion. The best way to code is creating the desired functionality with the least complexity possible. Sure you could write a script that makes the dwarf actually check the contents of the barrel and decide on its skill level if something is off. But its alot simpler and produces the same exact result if RNG decides the dwarf is going to close the barrel and then another RNG decides if the dwarf notices the baby inside perhaps with a positive modifier based on the dwarf ale brewning skill.

You could also have every dwarf continously iteraiting on every item they own and monitor things like worry level. But it would be inefficient because you'd have to iterate through stuff that has zero effect on anything. Its better to do it the other way. The script should be attached to the baby not the mother. That way when baby is lost it can gradually increase the worry state of his mother. Mother owns tons of things, baby has just one mother. Takes less resources that way and is simpler. In fact you dont even need to worry about worrying in reality. You could implement it as follows: Baby script would monitor its own condition and its own health. So Barrel got closed baby died. Baby health is 0 condition is lost. after x amount of time Baby script gives the task to its mother to look for him simulating a low worry level. After another X amount of time baby script gives a new task to look for him even more agressively simulating despiration. Eventually mother finds the baby in the barrel, baby reports health 0 and assigns drastic action to mother. The drastic action could be a selection of actions as discussed above. You know the usual genocide, suicide, take over the world etc... This would still simulate a lot of what you said but at a fraction of the complexity.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Note: here we don't have a single script detailing the story of her going mad. It was several small scripts, that hooked into each other in interesting ways. The interesting part is that due to the multitude of such scripts, interacting with each other, any sort of storyline can emerge - for example, that barrel could accidentally have been chosen to be opened at any time (because there might have been a thirsty dwarf nearby), and the baby would have been found, either dead or alive, with all the consequences of that happening.
In that case the script of the baby would result in having still health, its condition could change from lost to found and it could have actions such as giving the task to the mother to run to him simulating the fact the baby started to cry the moment it was found.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

There is a considerable difference between this, and the GW2 way of respawning a fixed scripted event just because a fixed amount of players have passed through a certain area.
No argument here. There is no such logic simulated or otherwise that trigger events in Gw2.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Eh, it's not that hard to implement. The area would not be that well defined. Not everything happens in a cell of 10 nearby houses. The next time someone sets up camp in one of the houses (if that's even what happens, which is doesn't have to be) it can very well affect an area of 5 of those houses plus 4 others that were not affected before. You are correct though in that there must always be things popping up/going wrong. If that didn't happen, the game would run out of things to fight. If you kill off all the bandits in the bandit hideout, which should be possible, then there would need to be new enemies somewhere, either in the same place or somewhere else.
If you're doing it from scratch yes but as it is you need to litterally redesign 1/4 of the map. I am sure you dont think thats a 2 day job.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

i think you have missed the entire point if you assume for some reason that bandits would be the sole source of butter. Butter comes from milk, you know, which comes from cows. While it would make sense to have many sorts of enemies drop it (because a lot of people, even bad guys, want to have butter on their breakfast toast, so a lot of enemies should have butter), it would also make sense to have farmers sell you butter. It would also make sense to have NPCs give you hints about bandits only when bandits are actually nearby. Or rather, when these NPCs think that bandits are nearby, whether they are or not. Or rather, when those NPCs want you to think that there are bandits nearby (either because they want the bandits gone, or because they plan to lure you into the woods and rob you blind).
I never said what you're suggesting is impossible to implement only it would involve a lot more then a couple of days of work to implement the random event themselves.  There is a solution to every problem but as you can see the amount of work keeps piling up. its not just create these random events and you're done.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

You would not have 8 DEs that can't run. You would have millions of dynamically emerging events that can't run, some of which involves bandits, others which involve little girls infected with plague and others which involve big ass dragons appearing and setting fire to the village. Or no, wait actually, you can run that last one regardless of who's in any of the houses of the village.
Again was just pointing out that there are things to consider, a change of this magnitute cant happen over night.

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

It's not very different. It's just that you said that "in Gw2 you can unlock all without paying anything", which is not true.

You're playing with words. You know exactly what I meant. In Gw1 you can buy anything you want with gold / platinum. That statement is true. but you're saying it isnt because well I might be too casual to earn enough gold / platium to buy anything thats available for sale in gw1 before the game closes or I die. so does that mean that you're not free to buy anything you want in Gw1?

#431 witteker

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:49 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

The system wouldn't be "totally random", it would be arbitrated by a multicomponent system. That makes it look random, while it's actually not.

You are admitting it here yourself.  There is no need for specific example.  It's just logic.  You can simulate will, but computer objects do not have will.  It just looks like it's will, but it's not.  The player in the game is different.  npc's have no will of their own.  It's logical.  It's obvious.

#432 Var

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostTreble, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

And no, there is no way to prove with empirical data that they forego fixing events in favor of making money with holiday events, but it would be naive to think they didn't prioritize holiday events because it would make them more money than fixing an existing one. ANet is a business. They care about players about how much other businesses do. They'll fix enough to keep you interested, but they'll ultimately go the route that gets more money out of your pocket. I mean, seriously, the Halloween event and gambling with Black Lion chests? If you don't see that as a money-grubbing scheme, then there's absolutely no getting your lips off ANet's bum.

Not to start butting heads here but this one part might be a bit out of whack for an argumentative point because its a bit of an oddball in the case of ANet. The holiday events have always been one of the biggest draws of population, fun, and cool, in regards to the franchise and have been where the creative staff have always dumped a lot of their attention and work. Moreover, this is the first time these events went down so the teams behind them were, naturally, even busier (and you cannot even hold argumentative ground to say that they should have skipped tradition that every player from ye olde game was looking forward to and expecting; unless you want to play at fallacy). So its hard to argue this point in your favor because its follows past (not so moneygrubbing) methodologies and practices of the studio that have been valid for seven years. (I also would think your point is rather moot since the team in charge of the holidays is likely not the team in charge of bug fixes in the open world. Which, just about anyone can tell you, tend to happen from freak situations that are hard to replicate, understand, and, subsequently, sort out.)

Now the gem store fiasco with the Halloween skins certainly was something of a disaster but the RNG of these events has almost entirely disappeared as of Christmas where the only thing left was the (oddly not present at Halloween) mini collection (though one can argue that they ended up giving you three free minis (and endless tonics), five minis you could buy directly, and bucket load of skins in and out of game that could be bought with no RNG, and so on). It got better.

#433 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

Finally decided to pop open this thread.

Game does not deserve GOTY.  Maybe MMO of the Year, but as others have said, the other releases were lackluster, not to mention lacking in the money driving GW2's development.

You know how it's not a GOTY?

Because it's social aspect is bad.  This is not just an opinion.  It is fact.

Why it is fact?

Because there's a 3rd party website touting a superior LFG system than spamming in GW2 map channel.  Despite GW2 already having web services built into its client already for their damn micro-transactions.

Clearly the game was missing something to make it complete then.  That's a major flaw so recognized that it created a third party tool out of necessity.  It's not like a mod.  Therefore, not Game of the Year.

Edited by unraveled, 11 January 2013 - 09:40 AM.
Removed unecessary commentary.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#434 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 09 January 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Pretty much all games have "unbalanced exploits". Learning to use those "unbalanced exploits" is what becoming skilled at a game is. Take an FPS for example - not even "soldier sims" are 100% super realistic simulations of what a real soldier goes through.
Basically, what one person calls an unbalanced exploit, someone else calls a good move within the rules of the game.

Guild Wars 1 was intended to play completely different from how it actually did play. You were supposed to be able to go without a monk. In PvP. I shit you not. Triple monk backline is an "unbalanced exploit" which actually just is a good strategy.
This is getting off track because your definition of 'unbalanced exploit' is very different than that of the rest of the gaming world. If something is unbalanced and an exploit is also called a -bug-. If someone says that a mechanic is unbalanced in a game, then the common expectation that the dev will fix it.   If someone says that a game has an exploit, then the expectation is that it will be stopped. Tell any gamer that a game has had an exploit for a year and they will tell you the devs are failing to do their jobs.  

What you are talking about is working within the system, so don't call it unbalanced or an exploit because devising strategies that still occur within the game's EULA is not the same.  

The original point I was making was that it is incorrect to assume any game could have the kind of complex system you suggested with hundreds of randomly generated NPCs running out across it, all of them interacting with each other in different ways without leading to countless bugs that players could abuse.  

I was not talking about legitimate strategies within a game's EULA but the innumerable bugs and problems that would lead to real exploits that would unbalance the game, destroying economy or progression or whatever else is meant to keep players playing while sucking away company resources dealing with the bugs.  

Quote

It would also make sense to have NPCs give you hints about bandits only when bandits are actually nearby. Or rather, when these NPCs think that bandits are nearby, whether they are or not. Or rather, when those NPCs want you to think that there are bandits nearby (either because they want the bandits gone, or because they plan to lure you into the woods and rob you blind).
So you actually expect MMO programmers to be able to make NPC AIs that mimic the concepts of psychological tactics like a bluff? Our current state of gaming programming commonly has issues with NPC pathing.  Games still have problems just making an NPC walk from point A to point B.   You really think it possible for MMO programmers given their limitations of resources and budgets to create AIs of that level, (and judging from your other posts you seem to expect these AIs to be adaptive as well, changing based on their interactions).  

Then there's the issue that complex systems always generate unexpected consequences and one as complicated as that would be nightmare to debug while being unprofitable to try to produce.  

As I said, that doesn't mean MMO devs should not continue to evolve the genre but there is difference between realistic goals and expectations that repeatedly come up on MMO forums for some kind of total immersion, virtual world simulator that creates an 'emergent narrative' where every single mob interacts with every other as well as the environment and players.   Such expectations never seem to bother considering whether a company could actually stay in business attempting to create such a thing.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 10 January 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#435 Millimidget

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 10 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

You know how it's not a GOTY?

Because it's social aspect is bad.  This is not just an opinion.  It is fact.

Why it is fact?

Because there's a 3rd party website touting a superior LFG system than spamming in GW2 map channel.  Despite GW2 already having web services built into its client already for their damn micro-transactions.

Clearly the game was missing something to make it complete then.  That's a major flaw so recognized that it created a third party tool out of necessity.  It's not like a mod.  Therefore, not Game of the Year.
Interesting take. I personally think that website is brilliant, and should replace any LFG tool in any MMO moving forward. And you also make an interesting point noting that they're positioned to take advantage of it, given the implementation they used for the TP.

#436 XPhiler

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:09 AM

View PostTreble, on 10 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I said decent player in exotics, not some Lv1 upscaled to 80 who hasn't played a game in his life.

I guarantee I would never lose to a naked person. Ever. Even just spamming my 1 key.

It's BS to say that gear doesn't make as big of a difference as you think. Anyone who's played WvW extensively knows it does. People in the WvW forums know just how much I played that, as I was very active there, so I'm pretty sure I would know what's needed to be competitive gear-wise. I've played multiple classes, from level 1 in noob gear to level 80 in exotic gear, through playing nothing but WvW, and there is a huge damage (and health) discrepancy between rare and exotic gear, much less naked and exotic gear. Unless you want to tell me that 500-600 damage per hit versus 1300-1400 damage per hit isn't a big difference.

And no, there is no way to prove with empirical data that they forego fixing events in favor of making money with holiday events, but it would be naive to think they didn't prioritize holiday events because it would make them more money than fixing an existing one. ANet is a business. They care about players about how much other businesses do. They'll fix enough to keep you interested, but they'll ultimately go the route that gets more money out of your pocket. I mean, seriously, the Halloween event and gambling with Black Lion chests? If you don't see that as a money-grubbing scheme, then there's absolutely no getting your lips off ANet's bum.

How are we supposed to know what level those 9 players were and what armor / skill level they had? This was about a month ago so I hugely doubt they were really level 1s upscaled to level 80. perhaps the 2 that ran away but all 9 of them is pushing it. Of course 500 dmg compared to 1400 dmg is a lot. But like you yourself pointed out this is a skill based game. its not just 2 people exchanging one blow after the other. There is also strategy, how you mitgate damage, how you prevent the other person from landing the most devastating attacks etc..

There is definitely not a big damage difference between rare and exotic gear. Exotic provides 10% more stats then rare but gear provides 50% of you character stats so essentially you get 5% more stats but lets not forget that stats are just part of the equation so you will not even get the full 5% in damage improvement. You get much less then that when it comes to health the bulk of which comes from what class you choose and your level. Less then 1/5 of your total health comes from gear and we're talking 5% of that here.

Again not saying gear doesnt matter if you come face to face with someone who is as skill as you, even 1% will make a difference no doubt. But keep in mind this is WvW we're talking about, 1vs1 engagements are well super rare, there are many factors that unbalance it by much much more then 5% and more then that WvW is not about personal engagements its about winning objectives.

Let me ask you this and now be honest. While playing WvW do you always consume food and use consumables such as sharpening stones ?  I am going to assume like most people you dont and why is that? The boosts you can get from that in power and vitality are more then exotic armor will give you over rare.

Of course Arenanet is a business, of course they want to make as much money as possible. Of course the whole chest gambling thing is a huge money grab. Does that mean all they care about is money and dont care about players? No. Think about it, did they have to create the clock tower JP, the labryinth, the lunatic inquistion, the reaper's rumble, haunted doors, the treasure hunt, the costume brawl, the mad king dungeon, the candy corn, the crafting recipes, the decorations and whats not in order to sell those gambling chests? That was the first holiday event, if all they did were the crafting recipies and say the clock tower, the treasure hunt and the mad king dungeon as well as selling chests / costumes do you think anyone would have complained they didnt do enough content for halloween ? More then that like you said they made bucket loads of money selling skins in those chests yet rather then ignore players wishes in favor of money like you're suggesting for wintersday they put some weapons skins up for sale and made weapon skins anyone could aquire extremely easily. Sure they didnt do a complete uturn, pets were still sold using the bad gambling chest thing but if you really think they made as much money selling pets in chest like they did selling the weapon skins in the chests then nothing anyone says will ever make you put down the pitchfork.

You make it sound like Arenanet dont care but tell me what other MMO and you may choose any one you want implement features player asked for in its first 6 months. Features like crafting directly from the bank, FOV increase, Discovering directly from the bank, New bank slots of the new materials introduced. etc... Did these features make them money? no, not only that but with the exception of FOV and without taking into consideration development costs I have no doubt they lost them money. Why? before these changes crafting required a ton of storage space which kinda made it mandatory for crafters to buy extra storage slots. Yet because players wanted them and because they made perfect sense they implement each feature in a month. Dont know about you but I never seen that happen before.

#437 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

View PostDoctor Overlord, on 10 January 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

This is getting off track because your definition of 'unbalanced exploit' is very different than that of the rest of the gaming world. If something is unbalanced and an exploit is also called a -bug-. If someone says that a mechanic is unbalanced in a game, then the common expectation that the dev will fix it.   If someone says that a game has an exploit, then the expectation is that it will be stopped. Tell any gamer that a game has had an exploit for a year and they will tell you the devs are failing to do their jobs.  

What you are talking about is working within the system, so don't call it unbalanced or an exploit because devising strategies that still occur within the game's EULA is not the same.  

The original point I was making was that it is incorrect to assume any game could have the kind of complex system you suggested with hundreds of randomly generated NPCs running out across it, all of them interacting with each other in different ways without leading to countless bugs that players could abuse.  

I was not talking about legitimate strategies within a game's EULA but the innumerable bugs and problems that would lead to real exploits that would unbalance the game, destroying economy or progression or whatever else is meant to keep players playing while sucking away company resources dealing with the bugs.  


So you actually expect MMO programmers to be able to make NPC AIs that mimic the concepts of psychological tactics like a bluff? Our current state of gaming programming commonly has issues with NPC pathing.  Games still have problems just making an NPC walk from point A to point B.   You really think it possible for MMO programmers given their limitations of resources and budgets to create AIs of that level, (and judging from your other posts you seem to expect these AIs to be adaptive as well, changing based on their interactions).  

Then there's the issue that complex systems always generate unexpected consequences and one as complicated as that would be nightmare to debug while being unprofitable to try to produce.  

As I said, that doesn't mean MMO devs should not continue to evolve the genre but there is difference between realistic goals and expectations that repeatedly come up on MMO forums for some kind of total immersion, virtual world simulator that creates an 'emergent narrative' where every single mob interacts with every other as well as the environment and players.   Such expectations never seem to bother considering whether a company could actually stay in business attempting to create such a thing.
Oh, so that's what you mean... Thanks for the explanation. I assumed that you meant taking advantage of things happening within the system. In the case of actual exploits that are the result of a bug, these would exist just like in every other game and would be fixed just like in any other game.

NPC pathing has been solved long ago, the problem is rather that this knowledge isn't distributed properly. The main problem, I think, is that the industry (accurately, unfortunately) perceives actual programmers as expensive... Game designers, including the people who write quest scripts and the like, are usually not programmers. They have some knowledge about programming, but owning a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter.

View Postwitteker, on 10 January 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

You are admitting it here yourself.  There is no need for specific example.  It's just logic.  You can simulate will, but computer objects do not have will.  It just looks like it's will, but it's not.  The player in the game is different.  npc's have no will of their own.  It's logical.  It's obvious.
You have some questions to answer before you can participate in this discussion.

View PostXPhiler, on 10 January 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

I find most of them to be funny actually, its kinda like a light black humor especially the asura ones. Personally I always found the story to be the most worth while thing in questing. The actual combat itself no matter what game becomes repetative very fast.



Cause I didnt find them all yet ? have yet to start playing 7 zones which means I obviously didnt find the jumping puzzles there. Cause I like to vary my game play am not the type of player who decides this month I am going to do jp and spend all month doing just that? Plenty of reasons. As for the monthly achievement like I said before its impossible not to repeat anything in an MMO so yes some monthly achievement content is repetative. Well not sure if you can consider killing 50 enemies in WvW repetative per se. But the fractals one can be if you do a lot of fractals. Its also the reason I didnt bother with the monthly achievement last month. Didnt feel like it didnt do it as simple as that. Not sure why it has to be so hard to avoid playing something you dont enjoy.


Come on these tactics are below you, if like you claim you like to excel at any games combat mechanic  surely you can see its a lot more then just different skill names. In any case reread my last post I explained clearly the differences in play style. Tell me how is ele staff the same as warrior bow? Warrior bow is just 3 DPS skills and 2 CCs. Ele Staff is WoW I dont even know where to begin. 7 DPS skills, 2 Self Support skills, 6 group support, 9 Crowd control skills. But yeah sure maximize your combat potentially on you elementalist by just using 3 dps and 2 ccs because well they're the same thing according to you. Hey if you want to simplfy things so much, how is a staff on an ele so different then an axe on a warrior in gw2. They both "just" give you boost to stats and do some damage using a basic attack. Ohh please!


Scripts dont have to fire off at once, you can still simulate gradually increased worry level by delaying the excusion of the chosen outcome no problem. Maybe dwarf fortress does have the complexity you mention underneat it but it would have been a waste of resource if thats the case in my opinion. The best way to code is creating the desired functionality with the least complexity possible. Sure you could write a script that makes the dwarf actually check the contents of the barrel and decide on its skill level if something is off. But its alot simpler and produces the same exact result if RNG decides the dwarf is going to close the barrel and then another RNG decides if the dwarf notices the baby inside perhaps with a positive modifier based on the dwarf ale brewning skill.

You could also have every dwarf continously iteraiting on every item they own and monitor things like worry level. But it would be inefficient because you'd have to iterate through stuff that has zero effect on anything. Its better to do it the other way. The script should be attached to the baby not the mother. That way when baby is lost it can gradually increase the worry state of his mother. Mother owns tons of things, baby has just one mother. Takes less resources that way and is simpler. In fact you dont even need to worry about worrying in reality. You could implement it as follows: Baby script would monitor its own condition and its own health. So Barrel got closed baby died. Baby health is 0 condition is lost. after x amount of time Baby script gives the task to its mother to look for him simulating a low worry level. After another X amount of time baby script gives a new task to look for him even more agressively simulating despiration. Eventually mother finds the baby in the barrel, baby reports health 0 and assigns drastic action to mother. The drastic action could be a selection of actions as discussed above. You know the usual genocide, suicide, take over the world etc... This would still simulate a lot of what you said but at a fraction of the complexity.


In that case the script of the baby would result in having still health, its condition could change from lost to found and it could have actions such as giving the task to the mother to run to him simulating the fact the baby started to cry the moment it was found.


No argument here. There is no such logic simulated or otherwise that trigger events in Gw2.


If you're doing it from scratch yes but as it is you need to litterally redesign 1/4 of the map. I am sure you dont think thats a 2 day job.


I never said what you're suggesting is impossible to implement only it would involve a lot more then a couple of days of work to implement the random event themselves.  There is a solution to every problem but as you can see the amount of work keeps piling up. its not just create these random events and you're done.


Again was just pointing out that there are things to consider, a change of this magnitute cant happen over night.



You're playing with words. You know exactly what I meant. In Gw1 you can buy anything you want with gold / platinum. That statement is true. but you're saying it isnt because well I might be too casual to earn enough gold / platium to buy anything thats available for sale in gw1 before the game closes or I die. so does that mean that you're not free to buy anything you want in Gw1?
Combat becomes repetitive? In a way, maybe. On the other hand, consider that chess is repetitive too - all you do is pick up funny shaped pieces of wood and move them to another square, and the combat, which involves moving to a square where there is an enemy piece already, is very dull - yet it's a very popular game.
Why? Because the strategies involved have a high level of complexity. Naturally, the rules of a game need to allow interesting things to emerge.

Wait, you still haven't played all zones? What have you been doing all this time man? How many in-game hours do you have, seriously. Open the game client and type in /age, post results. Also what level is your highest leveled character?

Elementalist staff is a bad example, I agree. That's because eles have multiple attunements. That doesn't matter, really, since at any given moment and set of traits, one or at most two attunements are worth using (which one would change with situation, of course). So if you are in a situation where only fire is worth using, you're stuck with either using the fire skills or being worse than you could be.
An ele staff in GW1 is a ranged weapon, but more importantly it's not a channel for your skills. The ele can drop the staff (or change weapon for whatever reason) and still cast the same spells. The warrior's axe on the other hand is required to use his skills. In GW2, both classes have both ranged and melee weapons and in all cases these weapons are skill channels.

You are right in that you could make specific scripts to produce the specific storyline that I told you about. But consider that that particular storyline probably only happened once in the entire history of the universe. Literally. Out of all the DF players in the world, it happened to one of them, and it only happened once. If the specific scripts that generate the storyline were hardcoded, then that would cause this particular thing to happen to a lot of people, making it less unique. Also, it would have to be something that the programmer thought of when he was making the game.
Instead, the way that DF actually is written allows literally trillions of storylines to dynamically emerge.

I have no idea about which object the worry level is attached to (I didn't write Dwarf Fortress and haven't seen the source code, just followed discussions about it). Probably neither the baby nor the mother, but to the relation between them. Doesn't strictly matter as the time complexity would be the same, but thanks for addressing this point.

No, you don't need to redesign anything. Well, that is, it would probably be better to make brand new maps in a brand new game than simply reusing existing ones, but you could use for example the GW2 maps as they are. I could easily see a design where there are, say, 100 spots (houses, caves, pirate ships etc) in a single area that are marked as possible setups for enemy lairs. Of course, a better way would be to have these enemies actually find their own hiding places... But let's assume that that is hard. Anyway, any of these 100 spots can be the home base for any sort of minor threat (bandit gang etc). Each of those would make up their own patrol routes or whatever (generated, not scripted). On top there could be roaming threats (dragons, invading enemy armies whatever). One special case of roaming threats would be ambient threats (e.g. wolf pack in a forest: it navigates around the forest, eating animals, NPCs, players etc, until it's killed). Not to mention more subliminal threats (plague or other infection spreading from character to character, both NPCs and PCs, inside a certain area, until a player devises a cure for it).

Eh yes, it would be far more than a couple days of work. Of course! But the random events would not be explictly created. They would dynamically emerge from the other components of the game. The random events would take zero days to make because you would not make them at all. The work, instead, is all about creating the conditions in which those random events would be generated automatically.

I'm not playing with words. I'm merely asking you to use words correctly. "Anything" is not the same word as "all", and what you said is "in Gw2 you can unlock all without paying anything". If you meant "anything" you should say "anything".

#438 XPhiler

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:40 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You have some questions to answer before you can participate in this discussion.

Combat becomes repetitive? In a way, maybe. On the other hand, consider that chess is repetitive too - all you do is pick up funny shaped pieces of wood and move them to another square, and the combat, which involves moving to a square where there is an enemy piece already, is very dull - yet it's a very popular game.
Why? Because the strategies involved have a high level of complexity. Naturally, the rules of a game need to allow interesting things to emerge.
Unfortunately because the game is easy most of the time basic strategies are all you need. There are always variations cause at least the combat system is flexible enough to make the optimal skills to use in an enconter vary a bit based on enemy types, their positions, allies, how clustered they are etc.. Unfortunately its not hard enough to make it always enjoyable so to me personally combat in gw2 feels a bit repetitive yes. But there is hope at the end of the tunnel, the new southern cove zone has tougher enemies and its a fun place to fight. Unfortunately its still underdeveloped but I am hopeful in the future it will change.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Wait, you still haven't played all zones? What have you been doing all this time man? How many in-game hours do you have, seriously. Open the game client and type in /age, post results. Also what level is your highest leveled character?
I am not as casual as you imagine. Last I ran /age been a week or two I had played 628 hours. My main has been level 80 since like the 2nd week or 3rd week of release. Takes a long time to properly explore a zone and do all the dynamic events it has. There is also a bit of waiting to be done waiting for Dynamic events to spawn.  And then there were the holiday events. Wintersday basically took most of my play time.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Elementalist staff is a bad example, I agree. That's because eles have multiple attunements. That doesn't matter, really, since at any given moment and set of traits, one or at most two attunements are worth using (which one would change with situation, of course). So if you are in a situation where only fire is worth using, you're stuck with either using the fire skills or being worse than you could be.
Sure one attument will be more optimize no doubt but in case of the ele each attument is better suited at specific roles. If I need to tank earth has some good crowd control and damage relection. If I am under a barage of conditions I will need to use water irispective if my traits are designed for water or not. If I want to escape Air and earth attuments are my friends. Sure if my traits favor fire I will use fire as my main dps but that doesnt mean air doesnt have its uses in certain situations.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

An ele staff in GW1 is a ranged weapon, but more importantly it's not a channel for your skills. The ele can drop the staff (or change weapon for whatever reason) and still cast the same spells. The warrior's axe on the other hand is required to use his skills. In GW2, both classes have both ranged and melee weapons and in all cases these weapons are skill channels.

I didnt say they're the same I was being sarcastic in that if you want to simplify things you can always simply them to basic levels to suit any argument. But like in Gw1 in Gw2 weapons arent just simply weapons, they provide roles and those roles can very between classes. Suffice to say a greatsword on a warrior is a melee weapon while on a mesmer its a long range weapon that does more damage the further from the targtet its used. On the warrior that greatsword is pure DPS. On the mesmer its more crowd control with a little dps thrown in the mix. Added to this there is more to diveristy between classes then just the weapons. Theif have intiative, elementalists have attuments, necros have forms, mesmers have clones and phantasms, engineers get kits, rangers get pets they're completely different playstyles and mechanics that are exclusive to the classes its not just a different skill


View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You are right in that you could make specific scripts to produce the specific storyline that I told you about. But consider that that particular storyline probably only happened once in the entire history of the universe. Literally. Out of all the DF players in the world, it happened to one of them, and it only happened once. If the specific scripts that generate the storyline were hardcoded, then that would cause this particular thing to happen to a lot of people, making it less unique. Also, it would have to be something that the programmer thought of when he was making the game.

No you misunderstand me I am not saying it should be hardcode I am saying each time you introduce a new object whatever happens to that object is developed in the scripts of that object. For example. The baby would have a collider to see what objects / creaters its interacting with and it could have a list of events that can occure with certain objects. For example baby came into contact with a barrel because well mother dropped him there. Internally baby has a couple of events that can happen, nothing or be trapped in the barrel. Rng rolls and luck has it that trapped was chosen. So next time a dwarf walks into the area baby sends a close barrel event to create the illusion of having that dwarf trapping the baby by mistake in the barrel. For the player this would see as if the bad dwarf has really amazing AI that interacts with everything in the world intellegenatly by performing simple actions such as closing barrels, drowning babies etc.. but in truth it would be a simple action by the victim objects themselves. This would be a lot easier to scale because every time you introduce a new object in the game, say a gold fish in a bowl you dont have to reprogram every AI in the game to handle that you just script the gold fish to create events that simulate actions by the dwarf Ai. And it doesnt have to be hardcoded at all. Taking the same baby if at one point it comes in contact with a ferocious animal instead of a barrel it could have an event where as it instructs that animal to move to a random location on the map and the baby moves with it. This would simulate animal AI without having to recode all animal to reconise baby as potential food or even potential offspring (tarzan like story). Still needs a lot of work to create all these interactions but its simpler to maintain and much easier to scale this way. Again had nothing to do with the development of dwarf fortress so I might be completely off base here am just saying how I would implement it myself and though I have a little game development experiance its so basic I feel like I am cheating by just mentioning it :)

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

No, you don't need to redesign anything. Well, that is, it would probably be better to make brand new maps in a brand new game than simply reusing existing ones, but you could use for example the GW2 maps as they are. I could easily see a design where there are, say, 100 spots (houses, caves, pirate ships etc) in a single area that are marked as possible setups for enemy lairs. Of course, a better way would be to have these enemies actually find their own hiding places... But let's assume that that is hard. Anyway, any of these 100 spots can be the home base for any sort of minor threat (bandit gang etc). Each of those would make up their own patrol routes or whatever (generated, not scripted). On top there could be roaming threats (dragons, invading enemy armies whatever). One special case of roaming threats would be ambient threats (e.g. wolf pack in a forest: it navigates around the forest, eating animals, NPCs, players etc, until it's killed). Not to mention more subliminal threats (plague or other infection spreading from character to character, both NPCs and PCs, inside a certain area, until a player devises a cure for it).
And what happens to the crafting material we just mentioned last post? if you have no guarantee there will be bandits in Queensdale for the next few weeks now that we moved to this hypotetical random system how are you going to make sure you're not going to create a scarcity of material for crafters without redesgning the area to offer an alternative supply of such materials?

What are you going to do with all the npcs who's dialog is based on the fact there are plenty of bandits in the map now that that may no longer be the case?

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Eh yes, it would be far more than a couple days of work. Of course! But the random events would not be explictly created. They would dynamically emerge from the other components of the game. The random events would take zero days to make because you would not make them at all. The work, instead, is all about creating the conditions in which those random events would be generated automatically.
If you do that you will sacrifce the story and if i had to choose between story and randomness I think I would go for story. If you had to do this, it can be simply spawn werewolves instead of bandits in house X, they'd need to be their own event like we were saying last time. Bandits are gone from the house, family move in. When the event starts in the middle of the night the teenage child turns into a werewolf kills a member of the family and runs off. You can then talk with the remaining members of the family who might tell you some cliche' he got bitten by a wolf story and they tell you that place, you go there and have an epic showdown with the werewolf or well go there and find other players already took care of it. But I definitely dont want something like today I fight pirates tomorrow I fight werewolves with no reasons at all of why that is.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

I'm not playing with words. I'm merely asking you to use words correctly. "Anything" is not the same word as "all", and what you said is "in Gw2 you can unlock all without paying anything". If you meant "anything" you should say "anything".

Okey fine you're right there. I did mean anything not everything.

#439 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 11 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Unfortunately because the game is easy most of the time basic strategies are all you need. There are always variations cause at least the combat system is flexible enough to make the optimal skills to use in an enconter vary a bit based on enemy types, their positions, allies, how clustered they are etc.. Unfortunately its not hard enough to make it always enjoyable so to me personally combat in gw2 feels a bit repetitive yes. But there is hope at the end of the tunnel, the new southern cove zone has tougher enemies and its a fun place to fight. Unfortunately its still underdeveloped but I am hopeful in the future it will change.


I am not as casual as you imagine. Last I ran /age been a week or two I had played 628 hours. My main has been level 80 since like the 2nd week or 3rd week of release. Takes a long time to properly explore a zone and do all the dynamic events it has. There is also a bit of waiting to be done waiting for Dynamic events to spawn.  And then there were the holiday events. Wintersday basically took most of my play time.


Sure one attument will be more optimize no doubt but in case of the ele each attument is better suited at specific roles. If I need to tank earth has some good crowd control and damage relection. If I am under a barage of conditions I will need to use water irispective if my traits are designed for water or not. If I want to escape Air and earth attuments are my friends. Sure if my traits favor fire I will use fire as my main dps but that doesnt mean air doesnt have its uses in certain situations.



I didnt say they're the same I was being sarcastic in that if you want to simplify things you can always simply them to basic levels to suit any argument. But like in Gw1 in Gw2 weapons arent just simply weapons, they provide roles and those roles can very between classes. Suffice to say a greatsword on a warrior is a melee weapon while on a mesmer its a long range weapon that does more damage the further from the targtet its used. On the warrior that greatsword is pure DPS. On the mesmer its more crowd control with a little dps thrown in the mix. Added to this there is more to diveristy between classes then just the weapons. Theif have intiative, elementalists have attuments, necros have forms, mesmers have clones and phantasms, engineers get kits, rangers get pets they're completely different playstyles and mechanics that are exclusive to the classes its not just a different skill




No you misunderstand me I am not saying it should be hardcode I am saying each time you introduce a new object whatever happens to that object is developed in the scripts of that object. For example. The baby would have a collider to see what objects / creaters its interacting with and it could have a list of events that can occure with certain objects. For example baby came into contact with a barrel because well mother dropped him there. Internally baby has a couple of events that can happen, nothing or be trapped in the barrel. Rng rolls and luck has it that trapped was chosen. So next time a dwarf walks into the area baby sends a close barrel event to create the illusion of having that dwarf trapping the baby by mistake in the barrel. For the player this would see as if the bad dwarf has really amazing AI that interacts with everything in the world intellegenatly by performing simple actions such as closing barrels, drowning babies etc.. but in truth it would be a simple action by the victim objects themselves. This would be a lot easier to scale because every time you introduce a new object in the game, say a gold fish in a bowl you dont have to reprogram every AI in the game to handle that you just script the gold fish to create events that simulate actions by the dwarf Ai. And it doesnt have to be hardcoded at all. Taking the same baby if at one point it comes in contact with a ferocious animal instead of a barrel it could have an event where as it instructs that animal to move to a random location on the map and the baby moves with it. This would simulate animal AI without having to recode all animal to reconise baby as potential food or even potential offspring (tarzan like story). Still needs a lot of work to create all these interactions but its simpler to maintain and much easier to scale this way. Again had nothing to do with the development of dwarf fortress so I might be completely off base here am just saying how I would implement it myself and though I have a little game development experiance its so basic I feel like I am cheating by just mentioning it :)


And what happens to the crafting material we just mentioned last post? if you have no guarantee there will be bandits in Queensdale for the next few weeks now that we moved to this hypotetical random system how are you going to make sure you're not going to create a scarcity of material for crafters without redesgning the area to offer an alternative supply of such materials?

What are you going to do with all the npcs who's dialog is based on the fact there are plenty of bandits in the map now that that may no longer be the case?


If you do that you will sacrifce the story and if i had to choose between story and randomness I think I would go for story. If you had to do this, it can be simply spawn werewolves instead of bandits in house X, they'd need to be their own event like we were saying last time. Bandits are gone from the house, family move in. When the event starts in the middle of the night the teenage child turns into a werewolf kills a member of the family and runs off. You can then talk with the remaining members of the family who might tell you some cliche' he got bitten by a wolf story and they tell you that place, you go there and have an epic showdown with the werewolf or well go there and find other players already took care of it. But I definitely dont want something like today I fight pirates tomorrow I fight werewolves with no reasons at all of why that is.



Okey fine you're right there. I did mean anything not everything.
You sound like a completionist... Do you do every single dynamic event in an area? Is that what you mean when you say you have 7 areas to go?

And eh yeah, I agree, there's a difference between melee and ranged weapons, such as greatswords for different professions. On the other hand, all professions have access to both ranged and melee weapons, so that's beside the point. Different classes do have different resources to manage though, you're right about that. But the number of differences is smaller than the number of classes...

Hmm, well. The baby has quite a few things that can happen to it, and being trapped in a barrel is not (explicitly) one of those. Instead, the barrel can contain anything small enough, and a baby is small enough. After being trapped in the barrel, baby drowns because it can't breathe (probably DF has some logic about creatures drowning in liquids, of course the death of the baby would be attached to the baby itself). Note that here, the script part is obvious in a way, but that happens very quickly: a real-life person who sees a baby in a barrel wouldn't close the barrel. But the dwarf doesn't care about babies at this point, he only sees the barrel to be closed because he's running a script and that includes closing barrels?

I think that about the ferocious animal thing, it's solved by intheritance and characteristic flags. Babies are dwarfs, which are some kind of creature, and creatures are made of meat, which means that ferocious animals probably will eat them. Similarly, babies are young, which could mean that an adult creature could adopt them - this would inherit to any adult creature, and be triggered by the "young" characteristic. Now, I'm not saying that this exists in DF, I sure haven't seen it, but I have seen other things that seem to be implemented by means of inheritance... It's just a very obvious way to program.

Ah, yes, the butter suppy in Queensdale. As I said, butter itself should not only drop from all kinds of human (or others who might eat butter) enemies, it should also be sold by any friendly NPC who might own a cow or similar. Because that's how farmers make their money, they sell stuff that they get from their farm. Of course, the balance here is that with less bandits, there will be more peaceful farmers, meaning that if all the bandits are gone you'll have more farmers to buy from. That doesn't mean that you will always be able to get hold of that butter, though! And of course, there might be some other crafting material. This is absolutely something that could happen, and during such periods players would have to buy the stuff from other players, meaning that prices would fluctuate due to rather natural reasons. But as i said, it would be a period - sooner or later, mobs (or other NPCs) that provide the materials will be available again.

Well, you'd be fighting pirates because a pirate ship appeared at the coast and the pirate captain sends raiders to raid the fishing villages there. That would be the reason, of course you would not be randomly walking in a village and 10 pirates spawn for no reason. That would be horrible.
But yes, in a way, the story is lost. Or rather, the hand-crafted narrative of the story, is lost.
That's why I at least would complement the system with two things: first off, instanced storyline missions like those that already exist in GW1&2. Second, I would have some scripted events as well - or perhaps better, scripted NPCs that are inserted into the complex, dynamic system. These would be used to give the game a sense of direction.

#440 XPhiler

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:54 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

You sound like a completionist... Do you do every single dynamic event in an area? Is that what you mean when you say you have 7 areas to go?
Yes I try to do them all, not for completionist sake primarily but because there are many good one that would be a pity to miss.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

And eh yeah, I agree, there's a difference between melee and ranged weapons, such as greatswords for different professions. On the other hand, all professions have access to both ranged and melee weapons, so that's beside the point. Different classes do have different resources to manage though, you're right about that. But the number of differences is smaller than the number of classes...
Thats a major strength though in my opinion. It gives you the flexibility to tailor your class to the playstyle you want (well warrior seems a bit limited in this regard to be honest) and allow you to be flexible enough to adapt to most circumstances you come across in the field. I loved the flexibiltiy to build any build you wanted in gw1 but it annoyed me at times ending up in a situation where I would think skill X would work beautifully right now but well just didnt have skill X. Personally I would rather have the flexibility during combat rather then in building up my character prior to the combat.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Hmm, well. The baby has quite a few things that can happen to it, and being trapped in a barrel is not (explicitly) one of those. Instead, the barrel can contain anything small enough, and a baby is small enough. After being trapped in the barrel, baby drowns because it can't breathe (probably DF has some logic about creatures drowning in liquids, of course the death of the baby would be attached to the baby itself). Note that here, the script part is obvious in a way, but that happens very quickly: a real-life person who sees a baby in a barrel wouldn't close the barrel. But the dwarf doesn't care about babies at this point, he only sees the barrel to be closed because he's running a script and that includes closing barrels?
Its impossible to say really. Its just to create the progression of the simulation you're suggesting. If you really wanted to physically simulate the whole process it would be really complex. you'd need to script the barrel in a way to allow items smaller then itself to fit in it. You need to script material in such a way to list what materials/objects can fit inside the current material and what cannot fit (a barrel filled with soil will not fit a baby as well but a barrel with ale will). The baby has to end up in the ale somehow, how would this happen in a realistic simulation? You need the baby script to monitor enviromental conditions, am i in air right now or liquid? Thats a lot of work and will use up a lot of cpu cycles running all these checks for every object / npc in the game. That being said it would be great because you'd have the potential benefit that you could end up with a result such as a baby drowning in a barrel without ever even thinking about it much less having to specifically implement it as a scenario in the game. On the other hand the other way round has nearly no complexity at all. Baby came into contact with a barrel filled with ale or water we have a possible scenario to play out, that of baby drowning. Rng decides if this happens or not. Much eaiser to implement but then if baby comes into contact with say barrel filled with oil there is never the risk of the baby drowning there cause thats not a trigger for the drowning event.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I think that about the ferocious animal thing, it's solved by intheritance and characteristic flags. Babies are dwarfs, which are some kind of creature, and creatures are made of meat, which means that ferocious animals probably will eat them. Similarly, babies are young, which could mean that an adult creature could adopt them - this would inherit to any adult creature, and be triggered by the "young" characteristic. Now, I'm not saying that this exists in DF, I sure haven't seen it, but I have seen other things that seem to be implemented by means of inheritance... It's just a very obvious way to program.
You definitely could do it, not saying you cant but if thats the case you could end up with something crazy such as an adult rabbit adopting a baby whale unless you add in even more complexity to try and keep it reasonable. You'd also be wasting CPU cycles checking if you can build interactions between unimportant things. No one will care or even notice if a bear adopts a baby boar. its only interesting if its a dwarf baby so you could get away with implementing the whole thing the simple way imho.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Ah, yes, the butter suppy in Queensdale. As I said, butter itself should not only drop from all kinds of human (or others who might eat butter) enemies, it should also be sold by any friendly NPC who might own a cow or similar. Because that's how farmers make their money, they sell stuff that they get from their farm. Of course, the balance here is that with less bandits, there will be more peaceful farmers, meaning that if all the bandits are gone you'll have more farmers to buy from. That doesn't mean that you will always be able to get hold of that butter, though! And of course, there might be some other crafting material. This is absolutely something that could happen, and during such periods players would have to buy the stuff from other players, meaning that prices would fluctuate due to rather natural reasons. But as i said, it would be a period - sooner or later, mobs (or other NPCs) that provide the materials will be available again.
While logically you're right there is an advantage in having stuff drop from mobs even though its not realsitic. Its incentives crafters to play PvE. It incentives players who dont care about crafters to also PvE just so they sell the mats to crafters.

It can be tricky to balance stuff thats intended to be random.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Well, you'd be fighting pirates because a pirate ship appeared at the coast and the pirate captain sends raiders to raid the fishing villages there. That would be the reason, of course you would not be randomly walking in a village and 10 pirates spawn for no reason. That would be horrible.
But yes, in a way, the story is lost. Or rather, the hand-crafted narrative of the story, is lost.
That's why I at least would complement the system with two things: first off, instanced storyline missions like those that already exist in GW1&2. Second, I would have some scripted events as well - or perhaps better, scripted NPCs that are inserted into the complex, dynamic system. These would be used to give the game a sense of direction.

Ideally you would combine the two, you'd have random events like pirate ship entering the harbor and lauching raids but it wouldnt be as simple as spawn ship and spawn pirates. It would be a full dynamic event as they are right now but you'd produce a bunch of them and select some at random and cycle between them. Down side is it involves a lot of work and I mean a lot of work. Upside is 1. you can still keep the random dynamic events of an area relavant to that area. 2. You can keep any balance you have by designing the balance in all events you create fo the area. 3. If you walk on by again instead of seeing the same event repeating provided the gods of rng are with you, you might see something new happening all the time.

#441 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 11 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Yes I try to do them all, not for completionist sake primarily but because there are many good one that would be a pity to miss.


Thats a major strength though in my opinion. It gives you the flexibility to tailor your class to the playstyle you want (well warrior seems a bit limited in this regard to be honest) and allow you to be flexible enough to adapt to most circumstances you come across in the field. I loved the flexibiltiy to build any build you wanted in gw1 but it annoyed me at times ending up in a situation where I would think skill X would work beautifully right now but well just didnt have skill X. Personally I would rather have the flexibility during combat rather then in building up my character prior to the combat.


Its impossible to say really. Its just to create the progression of the simulation you're suggesting. If you really wanted to physically simulate the whole process it would be really complex. you'd need to script the barrel in a way to allow items smaller then itself to fit in it. You need to script material in such a way to list what materials/objects can fit inside the current material and what cannot fit (a barrel filled with soil will not fit a baby as well but a barrel with ale will). The baby has to end up in the ale somehow, how would this happen in a realistic simulation? You need the baby script to monitor enviromental conditions, am i in air right now or liquid? Thats a lot of work and will use up a lot of cpu cycles running all these checks for every object / npc in the game. That being said it would be great because you'd have the potential benefit that you could end up with a result such as a baby drowning in a barrel without ever even thinking about it much less having to specifically implement it as a scenario in the game. On the other hand the other way round has nearly no complexity at all. Baby came into contact with a barrel filled with ale or water we have a possible scenario to play out, that of baby drowning. Rng decides if this happens or not. Much eaiser to implement but then if baby comes into contact with say barrel filled with oil there is never the risk of the baby drowning there cause thats not a trigger for the drowning event.


You definitely could do it, not saying you cant but if thats the case you could end up with something crazy such as an adult rabbit adopting a baby whale unless you add in even more complexity to try and keep it reasonable. You'd also be wasting CPU cycles checking if you can build interactions between unimportant things. No one will care or even notice if a bear adopts a baby boar. its only interesting if its a dwarf baby so you could get away with implementing the whole thing the simple way imho.


While logically you're right there is an advantage in having stuff drop from mobs even though its not realsitic. Its incentives crafters to play PvE. It incentives players who dont care about crafters to also PvE just so they sell the mats to crafters.

It can be tricky to balance stuff thats intended to be random.



Ideally you would combine the two, you'd have random events like pirate ship entering the harbor and lauching raids but it wouldnt be as simple as spawn ship and spawn pirates. It would be a full dynamic event as they are right now but you'd produce a bunch of them and select some at random and cycle between them. Down side is it involves a lot of work and I mean a lot of work. Upside is 1. you can still keep the random dynamic events of an area relavant to that area. 2. You can keep any balance you have by designing the balance in all events you create fo the area. 3. If you walk on by again instead of seeing the same event repeating provided the gods of rng are with you, you might see something new happening all the time.
Good DEs... I guess they do exist. You don't need to do them all though.

Yeah about the situation you mention, I end up thinking a lot that my class X character could sure use a class Y skill for this build, but that's not possible in GW2 because they wanted to avoid dual classing. And then they go ahead and make 9 classes...!! Way to shoot yourself in the foot ANet.

Exactly, you'd need to script the barrel to contain things. Ale fits, ale and baby fits, soil and baby doesn't fit. But this doesn't need to be encoded as ale, baby, and soil directly... Rather, ale is liquid, soil isn't. And baby is an item with a relatively fixed shape. Probably you can put small enough items into a barrel of liquid, and while some liquid will spill out, the result will still be a barrel of ale and baby. Anyway, yes, the cool thing is that regardless of which kind of liquid is in the barrel or even if it's a baby, a cat, or just a very small but still adult dwarf, someone can still drown in that barrel.

Well, I don't think that a rabbit adopting a whale is likely since they'd probably never meet, but I get your point. But I think you're approaching it the wrong way. As you say no one would care if a bear adopted a boar, but that isn't a negative thing. The result would just be that we walk in the forest and see a bear together a boar piglet. We would likely not even notice it. But we would notice if it was a human (asura, norn etc.) child instead.
Still, sure, in this particular case it might be pointless to implement a creature-wide adoption mechanic.

I think it's realistic to have mobs drop stuff... Well, some stuff. Some animal enemy should not drop gold or a pair of pants or the like. But if a bandit drops a stick of butter, that's ok I think, I mean bandits gotta eat too, it's reasonable that he had it in his pocket.

Totally agreed on that it's tricky to balance things that are random! The key is often to create a random foam. Don't make things clear cut, instead make sure that people can get for example butter from all kinds of sources. Also, if you have a system like this, people will stockpile materials for the times when it's hard to get them, since prices will go up at such times. And that is interesting! It creates a more dynamic market, one that is dynamic for "real" (in game) reasons instead of the market changing because of a skill patch or because a new piece of gear is released.

Absolutely, that is what I meant. You can also do it in different scales: like keeping all the "small" randomness in an area, like this or that bandit gang appears or is driven off by players as the system goes... And then, instead of letting the system do it, you (the devs) make a dragon attack the village or something. Once you send in the dragon, it's up to the players and the system to deal with it, but it's similar to a "one time" event because it only happens when the devs want it. And of course they can also tell it to fly away and disappear.
This could also be used for holiday events, like once per year (on Halloween), for 48 hours there will be candy corn monsters spawning in all cities or something lol.

#442 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:14 AM

View PostMillimidget, on 10 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Interesting take. I personally think that website is brilliant, and should replace any LFG tool in any MMO moving forward. And you also make an interesting point noting that they're positioned to take advantage of it, given the implementation they used for the TP.
It is. Now guess what happen to this game if some fancy guys start to destroy that website, turning it to be quite harmful and unsafe website to even be opened, harming the security of the users
Then , tell me again you're having fun and this game is worthy of a goty, and where in the hell is everyone. They didn't left, right? ^_^

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 13 January 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#443 XPhiler

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Yeah about the situation you mention, I end up thinking a lot that my class X character could sure use a class Y skill for this build, but that's not possible in GW2 because they wanted to avoid dual classing. And then they go ahead and make 9 classes...!! Way to shoot yourself in the foot ANet.
I think you're seeing this whole thing from a theoretical point of view while ignore the practical implementation. Dual classing in gw1 allowed you to create a character that took characters from two distinct classes. You could have an elementalist that could heal. You could have a warrior that can summon minions etc.. In Gw2 nearly every class can do nearly all the things any other class can do even though sometimes that implementation is a bit different. My Necro apart from your standard necroy stuff can heal, can interrupt, can support, can tank, can prevent enemies for running away and thats all stuff you'd expect other classes to do.


View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Well, I don't think that a rabbit adopting a whale is likely since they'd probably never meet, but I get your point. But I think you're approaching it the wrong way. As you say no one would care if a bear adopted a boar, but that isn't a negative thing. The result would just be that we walk in the forest and see a bear together a boar piglet. We would likely not even notice it. But we would notice if it was a human (asura, norn etc.) child instead.
Still, sure, in this particular case it might be pointless to implement a creature-wide adoption mechanic.
Your way is more flexible without a doubt but consider how much more processor intensive it is. If you have 10k animals in the world and 2k baby animals and 1k playable race babies your way would require 13k scripts running with at least 10k collision detection boxes. The adult animals need to to monitor collision for babies so they can initiate a possible adoption process shoudl the gods of rng demand it. This will give you the advantage that sometimes you see cross species adoption. If you focus on the babies though you reduce that to 1k collision detections and 1k scripts. if playable race baby comes in range of an adult animal then the gods of rng can determine adoption. Both ways will work, your method has an advantage that you could see wolf adopt a boar but would that justify 10x the processing power?

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Totally agreed on that it's tricky to balance things that are random! The key is often to create a random foam. Don't make things clear cut, instead make sure that people can get for example butter from all kinds of sources. Also, if you have a system like this, people will stockpile materials for the times when it's hard to get them, since prices will go up at such times. And that is interesting! It creates a more dynamic market, one that is dynamic for "real" (in game) reasons instead of the market changing because of a skill patch or because a new piece of gear is released.
Sure remember I never said its impossible just that it requires redesigning and it would take a lot of time. I agree that it would make for an interesting market dynamic but it might not be desireable because you have to think about new players as well. Such players would not have had time to stockpile stuff, they would be short on money and worst yet still trying to learn the game. Trying to craft and having no way of aquiring a material they need can drive them away. For bother or worst Gw2 is trying to be as inclusive as possible and this would go counter that.

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Absolutely, that is what I meant. You can also do it in different scales: like keeping all the "small" randomness in an area, like this or that bandit gang appears or is driven off by players as the system goes... And then, instead of letting the system do it, you (the devs) make a dragon attack the village or something. Once you send in the dragon, it's up to the players and the system to deal with it, but it's similar to a "one time" event because it only happens when the devs want it. And of course they can also tell it to fly away and disappear.

This could also be used for holiday events, like once per year (on Halloween), for 48 hours there will be candy corn monsters spawning in all cities or something lol.

Got nothing against one time events, I personally love them, keeps the world feeling alive imho. Unfortunately many many players dont see it like us so unfortunately on this I think the game is going to end up going the other way. Will have to see.

#444 raspberry jam

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 15 January 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I think you're seeing this whole thing from a theoretical point of view while ignore the practical implementation. Dual classing in gw1 allowed you to create a character that took characters from two distinct classes. You could have an elementalist that could heal. You could have a warrior that can summon minions etc.. In Gw2 nearly every class can do nearly all the things any other class can do even though sometimes that implementation is a bit different. My Necro apart from your standard necroy stuff can heal, can interrupt, can support, can tank, can prevent enemies for running away and thats all stuff you'd expect other classes to do.



Your way is more flexible without a doubt but consider how much more processor intensive it is. If you have 10k animals in the world and 2k baby animals and 1k playable race babies your way would require 13k scripts running with at least 10k collision detection boxes. The adult animals need to to monitor collision for babies so they can initiate a possible adoption process shoudl the gods of rng demand it. This will give you the advantage that sometimes you see cross species adoption. If you focus on the babies though you reduce that to 1k collision detections and 1k scripts. if playable race baby comes in range of an adult animal then the gods of rng can determine adoption. Both ways will work, your method has an advantage that you could see wolf adopt a boar but would that justify 10x the processing power?


Sure remember I never said its impossible just that it requires redesigning and it would take a lot of time. I agree that it would make for an interesting market dynamic but it might not be desireable because you have to think about new players as well. Such players would not have had time to stockpile stuff, they would be short on money and worst yet still trying to learn the game. Trying to craft and having no way of aquiring a material they need can drive them away. For bother or worst Gw2 is trying to be as inclusive as possible and this would go counter that.



Got nothing against one time events, I personally love them, keeps the world feeling alive imho. Unfortunately many many players dont see it like us so unfortunately on this I think the game is going to end up going the other way. Will have to see.
Yes and no. If you actually made an elementalist that can heal in GW1... You had two options: First, you could make a horrible gimmick character that actually can heal just as well as a monk can heal, as long as nothing unforeseen happens. Since GW1 zones had enemies with fixed skills so you knew what you were up against, this could work in some places, but not in others. Second, you could use the healing part as a flavor skill - a normal ele setup with Healing Breeze or similar. It was nowhere as good as a monk healer, but it was good enough to give someone a few extra seconds before the monk had to step in.

Or you could go the third way and just pack a lot of normal heals on your ele. The same as putting minion skills on your warrior. This is something that was incredibly inefficient and actually outright stupid to do. The secondary profession was to be used for flavor and utility, but your main role was decided by your primary profession. There was some overlap in both ways, for example monks were the most common main healers, but ritualists could play that role as well. On the flip side, warriors could play "tank"  roles where they just were up front taking damage as well as being the main damage dealers of the team.

In GW2, profession does not result in a clearly defined set of roles. Apart from a very limited number of roles, pretty much all professions can do almost everything. Similarly, if a team does not require nonstandard roles, all roles can be filled by almost any profession.
That's all good in theory, but the point of contention is that the multitude of possibilities combined with the fact that the total amount of options is large but limited results in a situation where each possibility has a small amount of meaningful options available to it. In fact, I'd say, smaller than the average number of viable and good builds for a certain role and profession in GW1.

Actually I think this is why respec fees exist. Discouraging frequent respec is a good way to distract players from the fact that there are not many options open for them.

Your estimation of processing complexity is so off base that I won't even touch it, except to say that an "adoption" functionality can be done in O(n), where n is the number of creatures in the world.

Of course it would take a lot of time. It would be best to put it in another game altogether, I think. As for new players, that situation is the same no matter what. A long-time player will always have more gold and resources than a brand new one.

#445 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

In GW2, profession does not result in a clearly defined set of roles. Apart from a very limited number of roles, pretty much all professions can do almost everything. Similarly, if a team does not require nonstandard roles, all roles can be filled by almost any profession.
That's all good in theory, but the point of contention is that the multitude of possibilities combined with the fact that the total amount of options is large but limited results in a situation where each possibility has a small amount of meaningful options available to it. In fact, I'd say, smaller than the average number of viable and good builds for a certain role and profession in GW1.

Are you kidding me? What small amount of meaningful options are you talking about? a better question would be what is it exactly that say my necromancer cant do? The mistake you're making in my opinion is focusing too much on stats I think. Yes traits can be used to boost only a small number of skills/roles but just cause some skills arent being boosted by traits it doesnt make them any less viable. I got no traits that boost my cripple skills for example but that doesnt mean using fear + chill I cant buy myself 2 - 3 seconds of immunite from a melee enemy by increasing the time it will need to close the gab. Having no traits in support doesnt take anything away my support role either.  The whole point of traits is to booster your prefered playstyle. If I like playing DPS then I will choose traits that give me damage. During a fight I will naturally fall into doing as much damage as possible but unless I suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision that doesnt mean if suddenly I am overwhelmed I will not use my support and tanking skills in order to escape that situation. Traits arnt locking me in a DPS role like you're saying they simply make me better at DPSing.

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Actually I think this is why respec fees exist. Discouraging frequent respec is a good way to distract players from the fact that there are not many options open for them.
I dont know why respec fees exist but If I had to guess I would say its probably so that people specialize a little and commit to a role to a degree. Anyway even without a respec fee would you move traits around after every fight you have to tailor your stats against every possible enemy?

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Your estimation of processing complexity is so off base that I won't even touch it, except to say that an "adoption" functionality can be done in O(n), where n is the number of creatures in the world.
Isnt that what I said? your way involves scripting every creature in the world to have active code (running all the time) related to adoption be it looking for a child to adopt or handling being adopted. Thats too much unneeded processing because all you really need is the adoptable child looking for a parent and once found acting that out. If what you're interested it is having a remote chance that one baby dwarves gets adopted by some animal you dont really need to have every animal check every single thing that comes into range. All you need is baby dwarves doing that which are in way smaller numbers then the animals.

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Of course it would take a lot of time. It would be best to put it in another game altogether, I think. As for new players, that situation is the same no matter what. A long-time player will always have more gold and resources than a brand new one.
Sure long-time players will always have more gold no doubt but because gold is kinda hard to come by 50c remains meaningful to a max level player as well. That allows crafting materials to be sold at that price even by a max level character. This however only remains true as long as such minerals are abondant. No one is going to sell a corrupted lodestone for 50c because it takes way too long to farm it. In such conditions you need to be careful about how much scarcity you introduce.

#446 raspberry jam

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? What small amount of meaningful options are you talking about? a better question would be what is it exactly that say my necromancer cant do? The mistake you're making in my opinion is focusing too much on stats I think. Yes traits can be used to boost only a small number of skills/roles but just cause some skills arent being boosted by traits it doesnt make them any less viable. I got no traits that boost my cripple skills for example but that doesnt mean using fear + chill I cant buy myself 2 - 3 seconds of immunite from a melee enemy by increasing the time it will need to close the gab. Having no traits in support doesnt take anything away my support role either.  The whole point of traits is to booster your prefered playstyle. If I like playing DPS then I will choose traits that give me damage. During a fight I will naturally fall into doing as much damage as possible but unless I suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision that doesnt mean if suddenly I am overwhelmed I will not use my support and tanking skills in order to escape that situation. Traits arnt locking me in a DPS role like you're saying they simply make me better at DPSing.


I dont know why respec fees exist but If I had to guess I would say its probably so that people specialize a little and commit to a role to a degree. Anyway even without a respec fee would you move traits around after every fight you have to tailor your stats against every possible enemy?


Isnt that what I said? your way involves scripting every creature in the world to have active code (running all the time) related to adoption be it looking for a child to adopt or handling being adopted. Thats too much unneeded processing because all you really need is the adoptable child looking for a parent and once found acting that out. If what you're interested it is having a remote chance that one baby dwarves gets adopted by some animal you dont really need to have every animal check every single thing that comes into range. All you need is baby dwarves doing that which are in way smaller numbers then the animals.


Sure long-time players will always have more gold no doubt but because gold is kinda hard to come by 50c remains meaningful to a max level player as well. That allows crafting materials to be sold at that price even by a max level character. This however only remains true as long as such minerals are abondant. No one is going to sell a corrupted lodestone for 50c because it takes way too long to farm it. In such conditions you need to be careful about how much scarcity you introduce.
Your necromancer can do a lot of things. But he can do each of those things in a very limited number of ways. In GW1 you could set up several wildly different yet still viable MM builds.

Yes, respec fees exist to force people to commit to a certain specialization. However why is that even a point? Specializations would exist anyway. Well, the point is a psychological effect: by having respec fees, you force the players to think about their spec, and to consider it more integral to their character than a spec that they can replace at any moment for no cost.

Without a respec fee I'd probably carry two-three specs around for a single dungeon run. To prevent this (which might favor changing specs overly much), it might be a good idea to allow free respec in limited areas, such as that you have to return to a "safe" zone (e.g. calm village, town) to respec.

No, that's not what you said, but yes, only checking for baby dwarves would be an optimization. However, doing such optimizations might (or rather, will) reduce the number of emergent storylines. Of course, in that particular case, there might not be a large difference, but in other cases there might be. Such as babies drowning in beer barrels but not ones filled with lamp oil.

Yes, your grasp of basic economics is decent, even though your grasp of fundamental economics (not the same thing) is not. If you remove certain elements of an economy, you need to provide some other way to obtain those (e.g. buying from NPC instead of drops), or else the prices would fluctuate too wildly. That said, new players being forced to buy, for example, butter at a premium because older players stored up and it just so happened to be hard to get butter at the moment, is not a problem, since with a very high probability, butter will be easy to come by one week later. Other materials can be allowed to fluctuate in price - this causes the economy to be more interesting.

#447 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:40 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Your necromancer can do a lot of things. But he can do each of those things in a very limited number of ways. In GW1 you could set up several wildly different yet still viable MM builds.

Yes, respec fees exist to force people to commit to a certain specialization. However why is that even a point? Specializations would exist anyway. Well, the point is a psychological effect: by having respec fees, you force the players to think about their spec, and to consider it more integral to their character than a spec that they can replace at any moment for no cost.

Without a respec fee I'd probably carry two-three specs around for a single dungeon run. To prevent this (which might favor changing specs overly much), it might be a good idea to allow free respec in limited areas, such as that you have to return to a "safe" zone (e.g. calm village, town) to respec.

No, that's not what you said, but yes, only checking for baby dwarves would be an optimization. However, doing such optimizations might (or rather, will) reduce the number of emergent storylines. Of course, in that particular case, there might not be a large difference, but in other cases there might be. Such as babies drowning in beer barrels but not ones filled with lamp oil.

Yes, your grasp of basic economics is decent, even though your grasp of fundamental economics (not the same thing) is not. If you remove certain elements of an economy, you need to provide some other way to obtain those (e.g. buying from NPC instead of drops), or else the prices would fluctuate too wildly. That said, new players being forced to buy, for example, butter at a premium because older players stored up and it just so happened to be hard to get butter at the moment, is not a problem, since with a very high probability, butter will be easy to come by one week later. Other materials can be allowed to fluctuate in price - this causes the economy to be more interesting.

Limited how? I mean besides things like If I want to heal myself, minions,pets or allies I have to use the same skill (though in different ways) it that the limiting you're talking about and if so is that really limiting in anyway? do we need 10 skills that essentially do the same thing?

Yeah we agree on the respec reason it seems. I kinda agree that you cant respect in a dungeon however. Its a good thing that your spec choices helps you in part or not in others at least it adds a little difficulty though its already easy as is.

Yes and no. I mean yes out of the box by focusing on the baby alone they'd drown in beer barrles but not in lamps filled with oil but there is no reason why you cant update the baby script to drown in lamp oil as well. I mean the difference essentially is by optimizing you're removing unintended situations. That can be a good or a band thing. Personally I would rather have control over what happens anyway just to avoid some wierd situations such as baby drowning while being given a bath just cause of some parameter mistake.

If Gw2 thought us one thing is never trust random to be in any sort of equilibrium. Would you really trust that the gods of random will never make it so you have a long period of scarcity on a material required by new players to start off their crafting career ? A lot of people bash the Gw2 economy and it does have some issues but it kept inflation in check really really well. In some games the disparity between value of money for a new player is so big compared with an end game player that it will make you cry. What would you expect when a new player needs days to make 1g but some end game dungeons that take 35 mins to complete reward you with 35 platium! Material supply cant be random its too risk, the drop system would need to be redisgned if all dynamic events were to be converted in the kind of random system we're talking about.




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