446 replies to this topic

[Shizu]

I really can't understand all the fuss about Dishonored. I literally put it away out of boredom halfway through the second mission.

It's just generic stealth game n. 28945, with 2008 graphics.

[ScoutMATH]

for some people GW1 > GW2 because of sentimental attachment. But if you remove all the bias and be technical about it, GW2 >>> GW1. This is for the fact alone that GW1 is clunky and old. Other reasons such as sales and playability, to follow.

[Fizzypop]

Protoss, on 30 December 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Yeah, as I said before - I wish the story/lore was more of a "opt-out" thing instead of a "opt-into". That way the folks that do not care for it can simply skip it, but as a default the story is "forced" upon you and you need to actively choose to not follow it, for instance, by pressing "skip cutscene" or pressing an X on the pop-up window that contains the lore.
In GW2 though, the player need to actively hunt for the lore instead - so as a default, there's no connection with the world.

Yep and it's definitely a big reason this game hasn't sucked me in. While good for me not great for anet. There is just no reason to care about what's going on. What's sad is they have characters that could've been better fleshed out instead they ended up dead. They have a chance at some great stories, but they fall to the side too quickly.

I mean look at the orders...Why weren't they more interesting? Why wasn't the orders coming together EPIC feeling? Why did they feel meaningless? The reason is because neither were properly developed. They were created out of thin air with very little thought to be a driving point for hero plant. They needed to create more background, develop their story more, give you more to do within them where your choices mattered, and overall make them important to your character. They shouldn't be discarded either just because "the pact" came along. Something you can unlock after finishing that part of your story like side missions? Give them a reason to have headquarters because right now there isn't one.

When the orders decided to work together there should have been more conflict. I mean seriously one minute they have disdain for each other and another they agree with whatever plant dude wants to do. Are you kidding me? Change should've been slow. The order leaders should have more to say and do within the pact too. Otherwise it feels forced and unreal. These leaders haven't had to answer to someone for a long time why the hell should they just be yes men now? That can be said for your character in the story too. I mean who doesn't inform their commander about their plans, bounce ideas off of them, or ask their opinions? The guy has had zero experience with battle and being a leader yet he doesn't even ONCE ask for your input? Really? Your character has had a role in leadership within their order, has successfully dealt with missions, and has plenty of battle experience...if anything he should be relaying more on your guidance. The whole story leaves a bad taste in my mouth for sure.

Edited by Fizzypop, 02 January 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Daesu]

ScoutMATH, on 01 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

for some people GW1 > GW2 because of sentimental attachment. But if you remove all the bias and be technical about it, GW2 >>> GW1. This is for the fact alone that GW1 is clunky and old. Other reasons such as sales and playability, to follow.

In terms of graphics technology, I totally agree with you.  But in terms of fun factor and having a lore that draws you in, GW1 >>> GW2.

GW2 skill sets are quite fixed and predictable, there is not much you can do in terms of innovating a build.  GW1 characters are so varied with different secondary professions and a lot more skills that they are so much more interesting.  Even though some (not many) skills are duplicated skills, they still play a part in the build (e.g. touch rangers).  The story line in GW2 is meh and doesn't have as much depth as the story line in GW1.

Edited by Daesu, 02 January 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[Grimful]

Gilles VI, on 27 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

That's what a vocal minority accomplishes.

People think the game is very bad, but in reality it's just a couple of people whining about a small part of the game.
Result is everybody forgets the good parts of the game.

But people that can remain objective and keep a distance from forums like this can give their opinion, and apparently some of these people think GW2 is GOTY.

If anything I wouldn't say this game is horrible, rather it's mediocre and is being lauded as amazing simply because it isn't WoW.

As I said, I don't hate GW2 and I can understand some people falling in love with it, however it really didn't do anything at all that made it stand out as game of the year or even MMO of the year in my mind.

I guess I'm an anti-fanboy. Just as a hardcore fan gets up in arms when people start bashing GW2 I get up in arms when people start praising it as the greatest thing since the dawn of mankind. If somebody thinks GW2 is GOTY material, fine I can work with that, it had a charm and I'm sure somebody loved it, it's when they try to present it as the game that did no wrong/every other MMO on the market (WoW specifically) as crap that I get annoyed. Obviously most game news sites that made GOTY lists aren't going to do that, but I can see a lot of over zealous fans using this as fuel.

Got a bit ranty there, but hopefully it's understandable.

[XPhiler]

I think there is a bit of a core issue here. Gw2 delivers what some MMO players have been waiting years to experiance. That being said for other MMO players the game is nothing like what they hoped for. The problem is that each side cant understand how the other side thinks the way it thinks. There are many reasons for this but mostly it has to do with gw2 having a radical design that so different.

Example: Protoss mentioned the divide there is with some people caring nothing about story and lore and want just to play/fight while others live for story and lore. Gw2 handles this perfectly in my opinion. If you just want to fight you get momentum, move from one event to the next, you get just a brief descriptions of whats happening to the side and thats it, no need to loose time talking to NPCs, no need to close windows, no need to skip cutscenes. On the other hand if you want context to what you're doing dynamic events chain one after the other which tell a story, some of which are really well done. Its like being in the cutscene, lots of work went into animating these segements so players can see the story evolve right infront of them rather then having to read a wall of text. it takes 1 - 2 minutes per dynamic event and they're really worth it for people who want story. But the game doesnt even stop there, if you're a lore / story buff, talking to the npcs will bring further context. Sometimes NPCs litterally on the other side of the map have story and lore that contribute to these events. Now this is where things get puzzling, why do people complain there is no backstory to events even though there is plenty? I got no idea personally, perhaps people want the story right in front of them and arent willing to give the game the 2 minutes required for the dynamic event to play out outside of the combat phase. If so it would be ironic because in other MMOs to get to the story it would require far longer then 2 minutes, having to walk / fight your way to the npc, read what it has to say and then walk / fight your way back to the next objective.

This all leads me to think that people are pointing out issues they dont really find an issue themselves. I have a feeling that here we have  a situation where players who dont really like story and lore and playing the events the way they want / desire (skip all story and go right into the action) then try to find a flaw with what they experiance and well since they skipped all story they're pointing out there is a lack of background to what they're doing. Now dont get me wrong I am not trying to generalize obviously the game isnt for everyone and is far from perfect but there does seem to be a segement of players who in a way want the game to be bad for one reason or another.

This same story is true for other elements of the game. Combat can be simple sure, in most cases especially if you're part of a zerg you'll have no problem using just an auto attack. That doesnt change the fact this game has the most complex and flexible combat system in an MMO I have ever played. Like Gilles VI already pointed out Gw2 doesnt have the skill choices of Gw1 but even so it allows you to play nearly anything you could do with any GW1 build on the same character using just 1 build. To do all the things my gw2 necro does I would need to use a bunch of skills and "dual class" between necro, elementalist, mesmer and monk"

Bottomline we're used to MMOs that are highly specialized. Gw2 on the other hand is trying to be everything to as many people as possible. This makes it easier to see flaws if you want to see flaws. Running from one event to the next provides no story. Sure thats intended, stick around, see what NPCs do, talk to them and you'll get a lot more story then you could ever want. No one is saying Gw2 is perfect, it isnt, but it does try hard to be a game that makes it easy for people to play it the way they want and for the most part it succeeds thats why it got so many GOTY. The majority of the players seems to like the game as it won GOTY even in awards that were voted for by players as well. Gamebreaker.tv and zam.com come to mind. I was even surprised players voted GW2 as the current best MMO to be honest I expected WoW to win that (WoW came second).

[witteker]

People favoring GW1 over GW2 should realize that GW1 worked for too few people.  GW2 works for a lot more people because it's simpler.  The design, like skills linked to weapon, makes the game simple for people.  Therefore, GW2 will be played by more people.  Why should Arenanet cater to those few people who like the complicated, skill style of GW1?  It's not making more people play the game.  It's too nitche.  GW2 has much more mass appeal.

[Feathermoore]

witteker, on 02 January 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

People favoring GW1 over GW2 should realize that GW1 worked for too few people.  GW2 works for a lot more people because it's simpler.  The design, like skills linked to weapon, makes the game simple for people.  Therefore, GW2 will be played by more people.  Why should Arenanet cater to those few people who like the complicated, skill style of GW1?  It's not making more people play the game.  It's too nitche.  GW2 has much more mass appeal.

Not that I entirely disagree with you, but the largest reason why GW1 worked for less people had nothing to do with the skill system. The skill system was actually quite popular even outside the player base seeing as it had deck building combat instead of the typical stat+dice combat. The biggest, most common complaint that caused people to either drop it, or never try it, was the entirely instanced world. The game was in a grey area between genres that couldn't pull in the majority of fans from the surrounding genres.

The skill system did not keep people out. Though the skill system in GW2 is much simpler and the game is indeed less of a niche. The niche is not created by the skill system but by the genre of the original game.

A large number of people who favor GW1 (I won't say most even though I feel it is) due so because GW1 was deeper. It was more complex, and required much more effort and knowledge about game systems to really be good, but it also had interactions that ran deeper than any interaction GW2 has. It was actually possible to truly create a build that the developers probably never even considered while creating the game.

[Straegen]

Feathermoore, on 02 January 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

The skill system did not keep people out. Though the skill system in GW2 is much simpler and the game is indeed less of a niche. The niche is not created by the skill system but by the genre of the original game.

I completely agree with the opinion in this post. When I asked my friends why they didn't like/play GW1, it came down to completely instanced combat, couldn't jump and very limited gear options.

[witteker]

Feathermoore, on 02 January 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

A large number of people who favor GW1 (I won't say most even though I feel it is) due so because GW1 was deeper. It was more complex, and required much more effort and knowledge about game systems to really be good, but it also had interactions that ran deeper than any interaction GW2 has. It was actually possible to truly create a build that the developers probably never even considered while creating the game.

Agreed.  Complex, or complicated.  And most people can't handle this.  Only a few could handle such complexity and enjoy it.  In order for GW2 to have more mass appeal, it needed to trim down the complexity, to appeal even to young children.

[Gerroh]

I think any MMO that actually gets a positive review from Yahtzee deserves some kind of reward.
While I don't consider Yahtzee to be a serious reviewer, with his videos being aimed more at comedy than accuracy, he brings up a lot of the great points about GW2, like the fact that people can work together without having to talk to each other.
My biggest problem with GW1 in both gameplay and trading was that I hate pretty much everyone and GW2 does away with this problem by allowing us to co-operate semi-anonymously.

All that said, I wouldn't give GW2 my GOTY award, but it'd definitely be in the top ten.

Edited by Gerroh, 02 January 2013 - 08:12 PM.

[I'm Squirrel]

/disagree. GW2 does not deserve GOTY. Its release was a horrible mess. Its development of fixes, improvements, and much needed content is extremely slow.

The first impression I had of GW2 was: Okay, parties don't work. Dungeons don't work. In-game mail doesn't work. Trading post doesn't work. Guilds have zero guild content. Guilds don't work. Events = kill/gather quests, thus grind. Events = majority of gameplay. The game plays HORRIBLE with good technical specs. The graphics looks like garbage on maximum, granted the game requires the best technical specs to play the way it was meant to be played. After 100 hrs of dedicated gameplay, my character feels as if he had 0 character progression. WvWvW only has 2 distinctive maps. The Mesmer's core mechanic is definitely underpowered. etc. I was utterly horrified at the game's release. It was by far the worst experience i've had with any video game.

The lasting impression of GW2 after three weeks was... Grind, grind.. grind.. pointless, horrible storyline, horrible dungeons, no content, gem store = major part of the game. etc. Thus the reason why I quit the game.

Bottomline: ANYBODY can create a decent looking game, with beautiful music and point-to-point, kill, gather, objectives. What makes a game GOTY is the first and last impression(whenever you quit or take a break from the game), in which personally, GW2 was one of the worst experiences i've ever had.

Gilles VI, on 27 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

People think the game is very bad, but in reality it's just a couple of people whining about a small part of the game.
Result is everybody forgets the good parts of the game.

Result is everybody forgets the bad parts of the game.

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 02 January 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[Gilles VI]

I, on 02 January 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Result is everybody forgets the bad parts of the game.

Lol, it's hard to find a thread (same as it's impossible to find a positive post from you) on guru that's not negative, believe me, I won't forget the bad parts..

[Dasryn]

just a month or two ago this was released:

http://massively.joy...f-global-sales/

i'd say that all this naysay is just absurd as GW2 and ANet and NCSoft are doing fantastic

[Daesu]

witteker, on 02 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Agreed.  Complex, or complicated.  And most people can't handle this.  Only a few could handle such complexity and enjoy it.  In order for GW2 to have more mass appeal, it needed to trim down the complexity, to appeal even to young children.

Yeah that's what we need more 10 years olds in the game.  Simple is usually boring and easily mastered.  Complex keeps me entertained for years.

[Feathermoore]

witteker, on 02 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Agreed.  Complex, or complicated.  And most people can't handle this.  Only a few could handle such complexity and enjoy it.  In order for GW2 to have more mass appeal, it needed to trim down the complexity, to appeal even to young children.

You misunderstand my use of the word complex. GW1 was not "complicated" as that word has a negative connotation that implies it was hard to learn. Complexity is the measure of how interconnected the individual components of the game were. Complicated implies that the game was hard to understand. It was downright easy to understand. It took some time to notice the deeper, more skilled combinations that made the game the way it was, but these interactions were what made the game require skill to truly be "the best."

The interconnection of the game components had little to nothing to do with the niche market and seemingly decreases the market of GW2 (largest complaints I have heard from people who quit are related to the skill/combat system).

Edited by Feathermoore, 02 January 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Millimidget]

witteker, on 02 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

In order for GW2 to have more mass appeal, it needed to trim down the complexity, to appeal even to young children.

That's like turning the dial down from 11 to 2. Surely there's an acceptable middle ground.

Daesu, on 02 January 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Yeah that's what we need more 10 years olds in the game.

Like every other F2P?

Edited by Millimidget, 03 January 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Ritualist]

Rickter, on 02 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

just a month or two ago this was released:

http://massively.joy...f-global-sales/

i'd say that all this naysay is just absurd as GW2 and ANet and NCSoft are doing fantastic

Oh, I think folks understand that NCSoft is doing fantastic. The problem is that the game itself, meaning the experience players (will) have when playing, isn't as good.
I mean, GW1 sold a massive number of copies and yet it still turned to shit.


EDIT:

Feathermoore, on 02 January 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

You misunderstand my use of the word complex. GW1 was not "complicated" as that word has a negative connotation that implies it was hard to learn. Complexity is the measure of how interconnected the individual components of the game were. Complicated implies that the game was hard to understand. It was downright easy to understand. It took some time to notice the deeper, more skilled combinations that made the game the way it was, but these interactions were what made the game require skill to truly be "the best."

The interconnection of the game components had little to nothing to do with the niche market and seemingly decreases the market of GW2 (largest complaints I have heard from people who quit are related to the skill/combat system).

Interestingly enough, GW2's casual PvP seems to be more complicated than GW1's ever was. There's a ton of shitty-ass concepts (pets, stealth, ...) mixed with the fact that one can barely see anything on the screen (due to the massive number of shit going on, 8v8 being the default, the fact that the only time the game actually explains what happened is when you get the death screen AND the limited rear-view distance), how poorly the mini-map is done and the insane number of armour mods and completely useless traits.

Edited by Protoss, 03 January 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[emikochan]

It's my game of the year. Haven't had as much fun in any other game in 2012

[Baldur The Bold]

I find the biggest difference between gw1 and 2 is the lack of thought needed to play gw2. I found gw1 to be far more cerebral regarding strategy. Sure the graphics are better, that is to be expected but overall I found gw1 a far more complete game.

For me the GOTY is far cry 3. It has the best story I have of any game I have played this year.

[Bryant Again]

Shizu, on 01 January 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I really can't understand all the fuss about Dishonored. I literally put it away out of boredom halfway through the second mission.

It's just generic stealth game n. 28945, with 2008 graphics.

Better than nearly all the other shooters this year, at least! But yeah, I just felt it was a worse version of Thief with 'Bioshock meets the Combine' (man, I miss Looking Glass...)

Regarding what I'd consider my Goty, I just wanna give it to Dark Souls again. Technically I feel like I'm allowed to due to the PC release

[leongrado]

Gilles VI, on 27 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

That's what a vocal minority accomplishes.

People think the game is very bad, but in reality it's just a couple of people whining about a small part of the game.
Result is everybody forgets the good parts of the game.

But people that can remain objective and keep a distance from forums like this can give their opinion, and apparently some of these people think GW2 is GOTY.

I was so excited for this game but I hardly play it anymore. Are you still having fun playing the game? If so, you should tell me what you're doing because I really want to have fun but playing the game now just feels like a huge chore. Maybe I'm a minority here but if there are others who feel the same (which is the vibe I'm getting from the fact that I'm the only person online in a 50 person guild) this is NOT a small problem with a small part of the game.

[Lucas Ashrock]

Believe me or not (There are some statements wrote by Anet confirming it) even the CEO didn't expect at all a gw2 so much popular and sold , much less a GOTY award, looking the news with this face "Seriously? This unfinished junk  online not even able to group not splitting the party with trillion bugs, not advertised not even able to sell enough online accounts (we had to stop sales of digital version for days), being so popular thanks to word of mouth, made us won a prize? Jeez, and i was even scared if i was able to finish to pay my car.."

No, obiouvsly i don't agree with the GOTY award, this game is absolutely not worthy of it. But well, considering what alternatives we had on 2012, the junk who smell lesser is the winner..

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 06 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Gilles VI]

leongrado, on 06 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

I was so excited for this game but I hardly play it anymore. Are you still having fun playing the game? If so, you should tell me what you're doing because I really want to have fun but playing the game now just feels like a huge chore. Maybe I'm a minority here but if there are others who feel the same (which is the vibe I'm getting from the fact that I'm the only person online in a 50 person guild) this is NOT a small problem with a small part of the game.

I do have fun after 700h played, on the contrary I never enjoyed any of those standard MMO's and got bored out of my skull before even half of the max level.
Maybe GW2 just isn't what all the typical MMO players expect.

And what do I do?

• Tournaments, only pre-made, I never play solo or hot-join.
  
• Dungeons, I just love them.
  
• Fractals, not so much, but it is fun with friends
  
• Title hunting, recently got 'Dungeon Master' title after doing Arah p4.
  
• Running alts, currently have 4 characters at lvl80, 4 more to go.
  
• Playing the TP, I love to have much gold
  
• Some WvW, but not so much tbh.
  
• Doing jumping puzzles, really like them.
  
• Doing the WvW jumping puzzles to kill people.

That's it I guess.

Lucas Ashrock, on 06 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

not advertised not even able to sell enough online accounts (we had to stop sales of digital version for days),

It's better they stop sales than keep selling and sitting with full servers for weeks and hundred thousands of players couldn't even play (Aion, WoW,..)

[Lucas Ashrock]

Sure. Except it wasn't the issue of gw2 at all. I don't remember a list of full servers on NA and EU with no idea where to register or not able to log, when they stopped to sell online accounts. They just didn't expect it at all, as they openly admitted

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 06 January 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Gilles VI]

Lucas Ashrock, on 06 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Sure. Except it wasn't the issue of gw2 at all. I don't remember a list of full servers on NA and EU with no idea where to register or not able to log, when they stopped to sell online accounts. They just didn't expect it at all, as they openly admitted

There was, at a certain moment, I switched servers to explore WvW for 100% world and I couldn't get back to any worlds for 2 days, they were all full, untill they increased server capacity.

[Lucas Ashrock]

All full, i don't remember it. Top servers, yes. They was capped before the upgrade. This is what i remember, during that exact period when accounts purchase webpage was down. I can be wrong, why not. After all, their capacity was planned for way less unlucky fools interested to play a beta 4, more than the mass of players we saw. Word of mouth works huh? If just we had enough time to realize every trashy thing of this game in time, and how they was planning to manage patches.. Uh i wish.. i would have saved my cash for better days when this was a finished product (assuming this goty game   survives, considering the junk it is nowadays , and big shots coming, like elder scroll online and pso 2 international, it wouldn't surprise me if gw2 will turn to be a ghost town like gw1 is now )

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 06 January 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Lucas Ashrock, on 06 January 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

All full, i don't remember it. Top servers, yes. They was capped before the upgrade. This is what i remember, during that exact period when accounts purchase webpage was down. I can be wrong, why not. After all, their capacity was planned for way less unlucky fools interested to play a beta 4, more than the mass of players we saw. Word of mouth works huh? If just we had enough time to realize every trashy thing of this game in time, and how they was planning to manage patches.. Uh i wish.. i would have saved my cash for better days when this was a finished product (assuming this goty game   survives, considering the junk it is nowadays , and big shots coming, like elder scroll online and pso 2 international, it wouldn't surprise me if gw2 will turn to be a ghost town like gw1 is now  )

You're really torturing me

And TeS:O?
Not so sure about that..
Did you see the combat in their latest vid?
And their "we will make sure there is lots of progression and gear to get after max level"?

In my honest opinion it sounds like they were just copying WoW, and then heard some stuff from GW2 and tried to copy it (everyone can wear anything = no trinity from gw2, their black anchor system = DE's in GW2/ Rifts in Rift, limited skill bar = GW1/GW2,...)
I'm very curious about it, will try to get in beta for sure, to see if it's worth it or not.

But their WvW sounds weird..
3 factions against one other, so if you change character you're sunddenly on enemy side?
And no server choice too to bind you to one side.
So how will they make the teams??

And last but not least the graphics are an insult to everyone who played the elder scrolls.

btw nothing wrong with them copying GW2, the more games that make levelling fun and no strict roles the better for me.

Edited by Gilles VI, 06 January 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Dasryn]

What you people have to understand is that ANet set out to make an mmorpg with a more action title feel when it came to combat.

for the most part, they pretty much achieved this as you all know you cant go to any other game right now because the combat in GW2 far surpasses anything else on the market.

however, due to the action oriented combat system, i believe that some traditional mechanics had to be sacrificed and its being misinterpreted as "not as much depth".

now, im a dungeon rat.  thats all i do.  im at the defense of claw island in my personal story.  i have 29% world completion.  from level 38-80 i leveled in AC exp with a little CM sprinkled on.  now that im 80 ive run TA exp and now im on CoF.  

i log in, run te story mode of a dungeon first, then i start smashing said dungeon until i have all the gear and then enough gear to have a copy of it in my bank and a copy to transmutate. .. . . . yeah, i run a lot of dungeons.

my point is - GW2's system is an "easy to use, hard to master" system.  yeah sure you have a total of 10 skills, maybe 15 if you can swap weapons w/e right but you have to be very smart in how you use them and when you use them.  positioning of enemies is still needed and there is just a lot of things going on.

there is an obvious skill factor, ive run dungeons that have disbanded at AC EXP P1 where you have to defend Hodgins against the graveling burrows because they just dont have the dps or dont know how to maximize their dps potential.

this game is hard core, and you have to treat it as such because every single trash mob in a dungeon can kill you in three hits.  you have to be on your toes, every encounter never gets old because every encounter is dynamic in the sense that every single one is a fight for your life.

TL;DR - i dont agree that GW2's combat system has no depth.

[Hybarf Tics]

Gilles VI, on 27 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Ofcourse there is (much) room for improvement.
But does that take away that it's the first AAA MMO that doesn't forces me to go raid raid raid, or forces me to do PvE before I can start PvP.
Or it has some pretty nice WvW, even though it has its problems.
It's the first MMO that actually encourages people to play together in the open world.
It rewards exploration
---

There are things to deal with, to improve yes.
But the good things are also a massive improvement to the genre.

Yes but recent forum history shows us that it's always easier to look at the bad stuff first and join the rest of the entitlement whiners generation istead of working on our lack of patience, understanding and respect towards devs that have worked so hard to bring us an entertaining game.