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Prevent pets from damaging downed players.

downed pets

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#1 Andemius

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

Hey all, I am suggesting that downed players recieve no damage or conditions from pets in pvp. I recognise that the downed system and skills are in no way balanced or liked by everyone, but short of completely balancing it by giving everyone the same, or removing it for pvp - it doesn't seem to be going to change.

Anyways. Pets seem like an unfair advantage against a downed player, particularly in a context of being caught roaming or alone on a point. As an example, if you were to down a ranger, and they subsequently downed you a second later - you would most likely die before they will, as your damage output is less than them and their pet's damage will outperform your own.

I do not belive this is akin to minions, or clones, as they are summoned using skills on your bar rather than your profession's unique ability.

Warriors cannot use adrenaline when downed, Elementalists cannot change attunement, Thieves cannot steal, Necromancers cannot enter death shroud, Engineers' belt has no use, Mesmers cannot shatter clones, Guardians cannot use virtues.

It seems inbalanced that Rangers should benefit from their profession specific ability when no others do.

Thoughts?

#2 I've got your kisses

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

Or... a player could rally if they kill a pet.

#3 Andemius

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:17 PM

No-one is gonna target a pet over a player, and unless the pet is already close to dying, you've got no chance of taking it down before you yourself are killed.

#4 Gilles VI

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:21 PM

Yes lets just remove all differences professions have.
And then complain all professions feel so homogenised

*genius* :P

@OP, I think it's one the few things where ranger has an advantage, let them have it.
If you lose a 1v1 vs a ranger you deserve to get killed.

#5 Trei

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

I think your weapon is an unfair advantage too.

#6 Andemius

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

I don't care if some classes are better than others at soaking up damamge, ccing, or whatever. However Ranger is the only class where their specific ability impacts the downed state. None of the other professions can do that.

The downed states are unbalanced as it is anyways, but pets just bring it further down.

#7 Happiness Factory

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

If rangers were more powerful outside of down state i might agree with you, but as it is I dont see any problems.

although this is coming from a ranger main so take it as you will.

#8 Alaroxr

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:21 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 28 December 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

@OP, I think it's one the few things where ranger has an advantage, let them have it.
If you lose a 1v1 vs a ranger you deserve to get killed.

View PostHappiness Factory, on 28 December 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

If rangers were more powerful outside of down state i might agree with you, but as it is I dont see any problems.

although this is coming from a ranger main so take it as you will.

Instead of saying that Rangers need to be buffed in areas they are too weak, you want Rangers to stay too powerful in one area. Basically, you don't want balance.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can ask for buffs where something is too weak, and at the same time, ask for nerfs where something is too strong.

Edited by Alaroxr, 29 December 2012 - 08:25 AM.


#9 licho

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:38 AM

As long as there is no 100% rangers in pvp or rangers are viewed as "staff pick" for pvp i dont see the problem.
Each class have various advantages, in different areas, some of them may seem to be quite unique.
There is no need to balance each element along the board, or we end with Ranger GS1 being exacly the same as warrior GS1.
What matters is a whole kit, and how it plays out.

Edited by licho, 29 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.


#10 Vence

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:17 PM

Rangers are meant to be strong duelists when it comes to 1v1. In fact, you rarely ever 1v1 a ranger because a pet isn't a skill like minions are to necros, but companions instead. Therefore, expect 2v1 situations when you decide to fight a ranger alone, even when you're downed.That's just one of the special characteristics that make a ranger class unique. Like stealth is for thieves, clones for mesmers, and pets/companions for ranger.

#11 Trei

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostAndemius, on 27 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Warriors cannot use adrenaline when downed, Elementalists cannot change attunement, Thieves cannot steal, Necromancers cannot enter death shroud, Engineers' belt has no use, Mesmers cannot shatter clones, Guardians cannot use virtues.

It seems inbalanced that Rangers should benefit from their profession specific ability when no others do.
Warriors' adrenaline, elementalists' attunements, thieves' steal, necros' DS, engies' belt, mesmers' shattering, guardians' virtues...
Hmmm...

Can any of the above get killed midfight?

Edited by Trei, 29 December 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#12 uzb

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:59 PM

Seeing how Rangers have some of the worst downed ability's for pvp, i think that the ranger gets to have its pet out while downed is ok.
The pets are still not working as they should outside downed state so the problem wiht them doing damage in downed state is a way to balance it up.

Lets say rangers were to lose their pets in downed state. Then there is an absolute 0% chance to recover from downed. Rangers 2 is quite worthless when comparing with other proffs, and the 3 is an pet heal that never gets off CD in a good pvp battle.

#13 Red J

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

I think we should take it one step further and remove Ranger from the game completely. We're a wreck of a profession already anyway.

Edited by Red J, 29 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#14 Cole Winters

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

I can't believe what I am reading!

As a Ranger main, I cannot believe how WEAK the downed abilities of a ranger are compared to other classes!  Where is the Guardian [3] which damages adjacent foes while giving lots of nice AoE pulse healing?  Or the Necromancer which fears people that might be "Finishing" you.  Give me mistform so i can position myself better for a rez/move out of a lava font.  No...instead...Rangers get a "Pet-based" heal that doesn't work half the time that CANT work if your pet is already dead.  [Not even mentioning it starts with an 8-second cooldown period which basically means you have to be ignored on the ground for 8 seconds in pvp/wvw for it to even matter.]

You know something OP!  Why doesn't ANet just let Rangers build WITHOUT pets at all....and boost their damage from bows to make up for the dps loss.  I know a ton of rangers that are sick to death of the useless pet AI, like being considered "In Combat" and run really slow because your pet is trailing behind you in WvW.  Or Thieves and mesmers escaping pet abilities and targeting with their stealth?  Or Pets swiping empty air because no one ever stands still long enough for a bear or cat to get in any meaningful damage?

The pet is the most pathetic mechanic in the game right now, and there is no "Niche" for a Ranger to fill in any end game content!  You want damage? Bring a Warrior or Thief.  You want utility? Bring a Ele/Gaurdian.  You want condition damage? Necro says hello!  You want to complete jumping puzzles without having to try? Bring a Mesmer!  Don't complain about the "homeless" Ranger, who has no benefit to his group besides a downe syndrome pet with no agony resistance/evasion, and 3/4's of our skills are un-usable in the current meta.

#15 JaxSilven

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:52 AM

I find rangers the weakest in down state, and by your logic warriors are by default the best in down-state. If you die the same time as a warrior they kill you. I just.. gah... don't understand some people.

#16 Happiness Factory

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostAlaroxr, on 29 December 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Instead of saying that Rangers need to be buffed in areas they are too weak, you want Rangers to stay too powerful in one area. Basically, you don't want balance.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can ask for buffs where something is too weak, and at the same time, ask for nerfs where something is too strong.

Let's talk about balance then...

Myself and probably most top players would agree that rangers dont have the most powerful and effective down state abilities. That title goes to elementalists followed shortly by mesmers and thieves because they pretty much guarantee a stomp interrupt. The only time ranger pets during downed state tilt the scales in their favor is when both players are downed and it's a 1v1 downed fight and the ranger has a gauranteed win. For balance sake, I'm sure arena net sees this as fair in light of the fact that this situation doesnt occur often, and for one other reason.

A lot of power is devoted to the ranger's pet, and that has it's ups and downs. When a pet is not in range or has to walk around an obstacle to get to a location, the ranger loses a huge chunk of damage that allows him to compare with other classes. What I'm trying to say is that Ranger+Pet is equivalent to other professions but a ranger without a pet is like a third of a profession in terms of raw power.

To balance this, we're allowed to use our pet during our downed state.

View PostRed J, on 29 December 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I think we should take it one step further and remove Ranger from the game completely. We're a wreck of a profession already anyway.

Talk about standard over-dramatic rage post. Ranger is in a pretty good spot atm.

#17 Burch84

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:21 AM

View PostAndemius, on 27 December 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Hey all, I am suggesting that downed players recieve no damage or conditions from pets in pvp. I recognise that the downed system and skills are in no way balanced or liked by everyone, but short of completely balancing it by giving everyone the same, or removing it for pvp - it doesn't seem to be going to change.

Anyways. Pets seem like an unfair advantage against a downed player, particularly in a context of being caught roaming or alone on a point. As an example, if you were to down a ranger, and they subsequently downed you a second later - you would most likely die before they will, as your damage output is less than them and their pet's damage will outperform your own.

I do not belive this is akin to minions, or clones, as they are summoned using skills on your bar rather than your profession's unique ability.

Warriors cannot use adrenaline when downed, Elementalists cannot change attunement, Thieves cannot steal, Necromancers cannot enter death shroud, Engineers' belt has no use, Mesmers cannot shatter clones, Guardians cannot use virtues.

It seems inbalanced that Rangers should benefit from their profession specific ability when no others do.

Thoughts?

this is just dumb - no reason for Anet to change pet damage on a down player.

#18 UssjTrunks

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:47 AM

Rangers are basically free kills in this game. Stop complaining.

#19 prince vingador

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostUssjTrunks, on 30 December 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Rangers are basically free kills in this game. Stop complaining.
lol,let me guess u are a thief? Othewise let the ranger spam 1 on u for 3-4 seconds and then we talk.

#20 UssjTrunks

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

View Postprince vingador, on 30 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

lol,let me guess u are a thief? Othewise let the ranger spam 1 on u for 3-4 seconds and then we talk.

Every profession is a free kill for a thief. Rangers are hilariously easy to kill with any profession though. They've been nerfed into oblivion since the betas.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 30 December 2012 - 07:31 PM.


#21 atreoo

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:57 PM

View PostUssjTrunks, on 30 December 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Every profession is a free kill for a thief. Rangers are hilariously easy to kill with any profession though. They've been nerfed into oblivion since the betas.
Not sure who you guys are fighting but Im def not fighting any class but Thief where I dont think I have a shot at winning. 1v1 ranger holds up pretty damn well.

#22 Sarision

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:58 PM

About time the Ranger gets some complaints in PvP.

#23 4arsie4

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

Rangers have the most powerful underwater downed state, which makes them unkillable when downed underwater.

#24 Akorra Ruine

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:54 AM

This is one of those things that makes the profession specific ability of the ranger unique. Realistically, we have to take into consideration: It is the ranger that is downed, not the pet. The pet has a separate health bar, and is only comparable to a necromancer's minions/mesmer's clones: the minions still stay up after the necromancer is downed, as is the same with the mesmer's clones, and will only die themselves once their own health bar is depleted. Once the ranger is downed, yes they still do have a pet, but they have lost all the control that they previously had over them. The pet, on the other hand, is its own separate entity. If it is still up, it is perfectly capable of using it's own abilities. And if you want to get rid of it, then down it.

I may also add, maining a ranger myself, that our downed skills alone would simply not be comparable to those of other classes, especially when fighting large groups. Take away our pet, we have absolutely nothing. As of now, when fighting large groups, our number 2 downed ability is nowhere near as good as that of other classes, and by the time 3 comes around, we've usually already been finished. Thieves, for example, have a much better chance of reviving after a down in these situations.

I will admit, in a 1vs1, if I were downed by a player and then shortly after downed them myself (or vice versa), I would probably win. But, I believe that rangers are more centered around a 1vs1 playstyle and that is why our downed abilities are as they are. Our abilities aren't that great in a group situation, but in 1vs1, we have a much better chance.

In all honesty, I think it's fair.

#25 Cake is Cake

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostCole Winters, on 29 December 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

As a Ranger main, I cannot believe how WEAK the downed abilities of a ranger are compared to other classes!  Where is the Guardian [3] which damages adjacent foes while giving lots of nice AoE pulse healing?  Or the Necromancer which fears people that might be "Finishing" you.  Give me mistform so i can position myself better for a rez/move out of a lava font.  No...instead...Rangers get a "Pet-based" heal that doesn't work half the time that CANT work if your pet is already dead.  [Not even mentioning it starts with an 8-second cooldown period which basically means you have to be ignored on the ground for 8 seconds in pvp/wvw for it to even matter.]

While I hear sometimes the ranger pet heal is bugged, ranger is one of the strongest downed classes when it works. ALL classes start with the cooldown on skill 3, and you guys have the interrupt to stop stomps immediately on skill 2.

Also to the OP: Yes rangers will win downed v downed everytime due to the pet attack/heal, but its not different than Guardians using spirit weapons before getting downed, warriors venging and stomping, necro minions, and eles vapor forming to reset health/hide in a tower Different classes are different, and its fine that some excel where others do not.

#26 NapTooN

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostAkorra Ruine, on 09 January 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

This is one of those things that makes the profession specific ability of the ranger unique. Realistically, we have to take into consideration: It is the ranger that is downed, not the pet. The pet has a separate health bar, and is only comparable to a necromancer's minions/mesmer's clones: the minions still stay up after the necromancer is downed, as is the same with the mesmer's clones, and will only die themselves once their own health bar is depleted. Once the ranger is downed, yes they still do have a pet, but they have lost all the control that they previously had over them. The pet, on the other hand, is its own separate entity. If it is still up, it is perfectly capable of using it's own abilities. And if you want to get rid of it, then down it.


The bold part is not correct. F1 to F4 still work in downed state, so you can still swap your Pet, command it to attack your target or use their F2 Skill to interrupt the Stomp on you (Fear on Wolf for example).

#27 Akorra Ruine

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:51 AM

View PostNapTooN, on 09 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

The bold part is not correct. F1 to F4 still work in downed state, so you can still swap your Pet, command it to attack your target or use their F2 Skill to interrupt the Stomp on you (Fear on Wolf for example).

Thank-you NapTooN, I wasn't aware of this as that skill bar disappears once you go down. You learn something new everyday! :D

I can see how this is a bit more of a problem, as that gives rangers two stomp interrupts, considering your pet does have an interrupt skill...

#28 B3aT

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

The ranger pet is like a limb to the player, so taking damage from him I think is ok..frustrating but ok.

The unfair thing is that the pet will be swapped back (after you kill him), revived and with full health (considering the fight last more then 1min),and he can switch the pets too fast, w/o penalty.

Anyway, a real issue is that you can finish someone while stealth.

#29 P L O O K

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 28 December 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

@OP, I think it's one the few things where ranger has an advantage, let them have it.
If you lose a 1v1 vs a ranger you deserve to get killed.
Clearly you didn't fight any ranger that had more than 5 games. Ranger is the best 1v1 in the game. It was at the start of the game, and still is. Even before the "buff".
Now that pets have some hitchance they are viable, and not only used to do the F2 skill. I think a lot of professions would want to have +2k toughness, 4 evades, 50% endurance regen, 1-7 immobilizes, perma upkeep: vigor, regen, bleed, burn and poison  <all on short CD. And let's not forget the quickness on a 20s CD.
Like some posts above, ranger is designed for 1v1. So saying you deserve to get stomped if he kills you 1v1 is not true.

On topic:
Ranger downed skills are just fine, that is if you have the right pets. They can be as good as thiefs/eles/guardian it's just not so faceroll easy to trigger. Hound Immobilize followed by his KD, then petswap to wolf AoE Fear then let wolf KD. Chances are even if the enemy is still alive, help will/should arrive. But you have to have all those skills on recharge, while other professions can just use 2.

Because rangers are a 1v1 profession and you get in a downed fight they have a high chance to win. But people have to use their brains when downed. You have 4 skills, use them! Rangers have to use their brains if they are stomped so you should be able to do it to.

#30 Fittleluck

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:04 AM

View PostTrei, on 29 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

mesmers' shattering

Can any of the above get killed midfight?

Well actually..




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